Handicap setting when joining a club

shane0007

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Handing in my cards for a handicap now, reckon I'll be given around 24/25.

Don't be surprised if you get a first handicap of 18. Most clubs give a maximum first handicap of 18 & then you can slowly work back to a maximum of 24 for men.
I could be wrong but the few clubs I have been a member of over the years operated this way.

Rikand

shane0007 wrote: »

Don't be surprised if you get a first handicap of 18. Most clubs give a maximum first handicap of 18 & then you can slowly work back to a maximum of 24 for men.
I could be wrong but the few clubs I have been a member of over the years operated this way.

In general this is correct unless the scores are exceptionally high.

Also, the maximum is 28 for men

shane0007

Rickylovesuall wrote: »

Also, the maximum is 28 for men

Sorry, yes of course the highest for men is 28. My club max is 24. Sorry, forgot about the 28.

PhlegmyMoses

I really hope I don't get given an 18 handicap. No chance I could play to that. Reckon 24/25 is my level for now. Gonna try get out for my first comp this Saturday if I get my handicap in time.

spacecoyote

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I really hope I don't get given an 18 handicap. No chance I could play to that. Reckon 24/25 is my level for now. Gonna try get out for my first comp this Saturday if I get my handicap in time.

Pretty sure I handed in a 98 & a couple of mid 100s rounds & was given 22 so I guess it depends on the club

alxmorgan

spacecoyote wrote: »

Pretty sure I handed in a 98 & a couple of mid 100s rounds & was given 22 so I guess it depends on the club

Handed in 108, 110, 113 with just consistent bad play as opposed to a few blow-ups and got 18

BigChap1759

shane0007 wrote: »

Don't be surprised if you get a first handicap of 18. Most clubs give a maximum first handicap of 18 & then you can slowly work back to a maximum of 24 for men.
I could be wrong but the few clubs I have been a member of over the years operated this way.

Sorry for the off topic rant but I have to say this is just totally wrong - if clubs are doing this then they should be reported to CONGU IMO. What is the point of having a handicapping system to then offer a maximum of 18?!?

It does not make any sense at all

shane0007

It stops unknown bandits coming into the club without history. Somebody who is really a 16 handicapper puts in all 100's & gets a 28. He'd be a long time coming down to his true 16 & taking a lot of prizes along the way.
Most people prefer to be as low as possible but there is always the few that play for the prizes any which way they can!

BigChap1759

shane0007 wrote: »

It stops unknown bandits coming into the club without history. Somebody who is really a 16 handicapper puts in all 100's & gets a 28. He'd be a long time coming down to his true 16 & taking a lot of prizes along the way.
Most people prefer to be as low as possible but there is always the few that play for the prizes any which way they can!

So you discriminate against all golfers who are genuinely >18 handicap in case the above happens......sounds very fair :rolleyes:

scrubber72

I personally know a guy who left one club in galway when he had a handicap of 15. Joined another one and put in 3 cards after his handicap lapsed. Got 25. He is capable of playing of 10. He will not play in any comps that will affect his handicap such as non gui affiliated ones, back on topic i can't hit it out of my at the mo. And when i can its likely to go oob.

shane0007

BigChap1759 wrote: »

So you discriminate against all golfers who are genuinely >18 handicap in case the above happens......sounds very fair :rolleyes:

It's not me discriminating, that's just most club rules. I'm just a member that accepts & plays by club rules. If you feel hard done by, you should take it up with your club committee. Majority votes generally rule so if they all feel the same as you, they will change the rule for you.

bustercherry

shane0007 wrote: »

It's not me discriminating, that's just most club rules. I'm just a member that accepts & plays by club rules. If you feel hard done by, you should take it up with your club committee. Majority votes generally rule so if they all feel the same as you, they will change the rule for you.

I thought it was the home club’s responsibility to ensure handicaps are maintained in accordance with the rules specified by Congu/GUI?

If that's the case then I can't see how clubs can have rules regarding this or what it has to do with the club committee.

shane0007

Yes but I would imagine if maximum initial handicaps vary from club to club then there is allowable tolerances.
The club's handicap committee would therefore set accordingly but any changes to overall club rules would be set by the club committee.
I am guessing here as I have never been on a club committee so many will know a lot more than me on the matter.
I just have no problem accepting whatever rules the club set out for me within reason. I signed up for accept those rules in the first place & I also accepted to abide by any changes to those rules as set out by the elected committee.

PARlance

bustercherry wrote: »

I thought it was the home club’s responsibility to ensure handicaps are maintained in accordance with the rules specified by Congu/GUI?

If that's the case then I can't see how clubs can have rules regarding this or what it has to do with the club committee.

Congu/Gui set guidelines around initial HCP's not rules! There are many other factors that can be considered other than the 3 cards.

Technically you won't find a club that has a Rule that the highest HCP awarded will be 18. They might give 18 to everyone that should be above that, but I don't think you'll find it in any rule book, constitution etc.

Not saying it's right be the way, anything within 2-3 shots leeway and I'd be happy with that. Any bigger difference and it can just demoralise a newcomer to the game.

If the OP is shooting 103 and improving then I certainly wouldn't give 24/25. A few disaster holes in that 103 and the OP could be getting close to or above 36 points with an initial HC of 25.

jackal

Maybe it depends on the club. I joined a club this year and the handicap was allocated based on 3 cards, they cap your worst score at double bogey, take your best front 9 of the three cards, and the best back 9 of the three cards and put them together to give your score. So having disasters does not really matter as much as it would in a strokeplay round, its more your scoring capability than how bad your blow ups are.

For instance on the best front 9 if you par 3 and bogey 3 and blow up on 3, you are going to be +9. (3*bogey, 3*double).
And on your best back 9 you have 3 blow ups and 6 bogeys then you will be +12. Giving you a handicap of 21.

I was given 22 with similar scores in the 100-110 range.

You could have 3 fairly shocking rounds but still produce a fairly reasonable front and back on different rounds.

spacecoyote

yeah thats loosely my understanding, they treat your rounds like one by an 18 handicap, and anything outside of a net double is rounded down to a net double.

Not sure on the exact ins and outs

bustercherry

ajcurry123 wrote: »

Congu/Gui set guidelines around initial HCP's not rules!

Where did I say that they did?

They set guidelines around calculating initial handicaps but all affiliated clubs administrating handicaps have responsibility to ensure that handicaps are maintained in accordance with the rules laid down by CONGU/GUI. Further the following rules from the CONGU manual states,

6.2 Ensure that the spirit and intent of the UHS is properly applied in the club. Failure by a club to comply with this requirement may lead to a Union withdrawing the club’s right to act as a Handicapping Authority or imposing such conditions as the Union considers appropriate.
6.4 Ensure that all handicaps are calculated in accordance with the UHS and issue,when requested, Handicap Certificates, which are required to specify a CONGU®Handicap thereon.

I can't see how any club could have a rule in their constitution preventing someone from from getting higher than 18 without being in direct conflict with the above.

OilBeefHooked2

Lets be honest though, any reasonably fit and healthy male doesn't need more than 1 shot a hole.

PARlance

bustercherry wrote: »

Where did I say that they did?

They set guidelines around calculating initial handicaps but all affiliated clubs administrating handicaps have responsibility to ensure that handicaps are maintained in accordance with the rules laid down by CONGU/GUI. Further the following rules from the CONGU manual states,

6.2 Ensure that the spirit and intent of the UHS is properly applied in the club. Failure by a club to comply with this requirement may lead to a Union withdrawing the club’s right to act as a Handicapping Authority or imposing such conditions as the Union considers appropriate.
6.4 Ensure that all handicaps are calculated in accordance with the UHS and issue,when requested, Handicap Certificates, which are required to specify a CONGU®Handicap thereon.

I can't see how any club could have a rule in their constitution preventing someone from from getting higher than 18 without being in direct conflict with the above.

Fixed that (you need to end a persons quote)

I didn't say you said anything. There was a lot of talk about "rules" that in fact are only guidelines

Felexicon

I just joined a club a few months ago (only playing about a month at the time). Handed in 3 cards all in the 110 range. Got a handicap of 22 from them which, while I find it difficult to play to is fair enough.

There would be no point in me entering any comps if they had given me 18 or below as I feel miles away from playing to that level.

Danny dyers double

david-k wrote: »

Lets be honest though, any reasonably fit and healthy male doesn't need more than 1 shot a hole.

Im a fit and healthy male and i would need more then 1 shot a hole

OilBeefHooked2

Danny dyers double wrote: »

Im a fit and healthy male and i would need more then 1 shot a hole

You only think that, you don't really though, it just acts like a crutch and holds you back.

PhlegmyMoses

This is a ludicrous statement David K. As an absolute noob, I'd really struggle to play to an 18 handicap. Nothing to do with being fit or healthy, more to do with skill level, understanding how the game is played and how much time you can devote to the game. I'd like to think that in a year or two I'd be around that level, and I suspect that I will be, but sweeping statements like that are unhelpful and unenlightened.

OilBeefHooked2

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

This is a ludicrous statement David K. As an absolute noob, I'd really struggle to play to an 18 handicap. Nothing to do with being fit or healthy, more to do with skill level, understanding how the game is played and how much time you can devote to the game. I'd like to think that in a year or two I'd be around that level, and I suspect that I will be, but sweeping statements like that are unhelpful and unenlightened.

Case in point, beginners get too hung up on handicaps and forget to play golf, forget about handicaps altogether and just play golf and let the chips fall as they may.

ForeRight

david-k wrote: »

Lets be honest though, any reasonably fit and healthy male doesn't need more than 1 shot a hole.

Fair play being naturally gifted at golf.
Do you give lessons?

Myksyk

CONGU set guidelines instructing that the H/C committee take the 'best' of the three cards handed in as a reference point, not an amalgamation of them (everything above double bogey reduced to DB) and take any other factors they feel are relevant into account (player history, previous handicap, knowledge from peers, society handicaps etc). Committees do generally err on the side of caution as the cards handed in are certainly open to 'massaging'. We don't have a limit of 18 but we have been stung giving guys 20+ handicaps in the past.

Miley Byrne

ForeRight wrote: »

Fair play being naturally gifted at golf.
Do you give lessons?

I agree with him though. A young, reasonably fit young male should find their own level when the start off an 18 h/c. They might get five .1s and find themselves off 19. So be it. I would prefer to see someone new to golf creeping up before getting cut than having a huge cut after getting a 24 handicap starting off.

If you play enough golf you will find the level that you are capable of playing to eventually. It's fair that clubs will err on the side of caution with new handicaps.

ssbob

denisoc16 wrote: »

I agree with him though. A young, reasonably fit young male should find their own level when the start off an 18 h/c. They might get five .1s and find themselves off 19. So be it. I would prefer to see someone new to golf creeping up before getting cut than having a huge cut after getting a 24 handicap starting off.

If you play enough golf you will find the level that you are capable of playing to eventually. It's fair that clubs will err on the side of caution with new handicaps.

This isn't what he said though, I can understand a club erring on the side of caution but that doesn't mean every fit and healthy golfer can play to an 18 handicap, I wish I could, but circumstances have it that I play off 23(22.9) after having started at 20.0 about 2 and a half years ago.

Maybe if I had more time to practice then I could play to 18 but I play regularly enough....

BigChap1759

david-k wrote: »

Case in point, beginners get too hung up on handicaps and forget to play golf, forget about handicaps altogether and just play golf and let the chips fall as they may.

Absolute nonsense - how would you feel if you got a 4/5 shot cut in the annual review so as to make you completely uncompetitive. There is erring on the side of caution and then there is just stupidity if any clubs actually have a policy of handing out 18 as a maximum

BigChap1759

david-k wrote: »

Lets be honest though, any reasonably fit and healthy male doesn't need more than 1 shot a hole.

Is this deliberate trolling??

Miley Byrne

ssbob wrote: »

This isn't what he said though, I can understand a club erring on the side of caution but that doesn't mean every fit and healthy golfer can play to an 18 handicap, I wish I could, but circumstances have it that I play off 23(22.9) after having started at 20.0 about 2 and a half years ago.

Maybe if I had more time to practice then I could play to 18 but I play regularly enough....

Yes, but I would argue that if someone can play to a handicap of 23 with little or no practice then with practice, determination etc it should be acheivable to get the neccessary cuts to get down to 18 or lower. Someone who gets 18 from day one HAS to work hard in order to keep it from growing (in an ideal world, not taking into account handicap builders obviously). But someone who gets 23 won't have to work as hard as they will have more shots to play with.

In essence, by getting 18 starting off it will put the onus on you to put in the work to play to it. You might be uncompetitive for a while but by working on the short game etc then the results will come. If the work isn't put in then the .1s will follow.

Why do people who have just taken up the game assume they should be competitive straight away. It makes sense that you should have to work at anything to improve and get competitive.

Slightly off topic but: Example - if you play 1 game per week. Take that as 4 hours per week. Then I would suggest sacrificing one game per month in exchange for three 1 hour sessions on the chipping/putting green. Mightn't be as much fun but your handicap WILL drop.

SnowDrifts

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Is this deliberate trolling??

Just because he hasn't got the same opinion as you doesn't make him a troll.

kkelliher

denisoc16 wrote: »

Yes, but I would argue that if someone can play to a handicap of 23 with little or no practice then with practice, determination etc it should be acheivable to get the neccessary cuts to get down to 18 or lower. Someone who gets 18 from day one HAS to work hard in order to keep it from growing (in an ideal world, not taking into account handicap builders obviously). But someone who gets 23 won't have to work as hard as they will have more shots to play with.

In essence, by getting 18 starting off it will put the onus on you to put in the work to play to it. You might be uncompetitive for a while but by working on the short game etc then the results will come. If the work isn't put in then the .1s will follow.

Why do people who have just taken up the game assume they should be competitive straight away. It makes sense that you should have to work at anything to improve and get competitive.

Slightly off topic but: Example - if you play 1 game per week. Take that as 4 hours per week. Then I would suggest sacrificing one game per month in exchange for three 1 hour sessions on the chipping/putting green. Mightn't be as much fun but your handicap WILL drop.

You seem to be of the opinion that everyone who wants to play golf should be dedicated to the cause and only play at a certain level. The reason golf appeals to such a wide level of people is because the handicap systems allows all to play and not feel isolated in a game only suitable for those who can play well. Starting everyone at 18 would remove a large volume of people from the game. After all we may want to be playing for the open title but very few do....

I have friends who really enjoy the game, play fairly regular and who would have started high and still play off 25+ and although they have never won anything they would always feel like they have a shot and they keep playing whereas penalising then to 18 would have had a different effect

Almaviva

denisoc16 wrote: »

Yes, but I would argue that if someone can play to a handicap of 23 with little or no practice then with practice, determination etc it should be acheivable to get the neccessary cuts to get down to 18 or lower. Someone who gets 18 from day one HAS to work hard in order to keep it from growing (in an ideal world, not taking into account handicap builders obviously). But someone who gets 23 won't have to work as hard as they will have more shots to play with.

In essence, by getting 18 starting off it will put the onus on you to put in the work to play to it. You might be uncompetitive for a while but by working on the short game etc then the results will come. If the work isn't put in then the .1s will follow.

Why do people who have just taken up the game assume they should be competitive straight away. It makes sense that you should have to work at anything to improve and get competitive.

This is seriously off target.

Why are you determining for others that they should practice or have an onus on themselves to improve ?

People who have just taken up the game are correct in the assumption you say they make. The handicap system should give someone a handicap in line with their current playing ability, not one that is a target or that their game should reach in the future. You are putting the cart before the horse.

Deu

denisoc16 wrote: »

Why do people who have just taken up the game assume they should be competitive straight away. It makes sense that you should have to work at anything to improve and get competitive.

Why have the handicap system at all if not to make everyone competitive?

GreeBo

Deu wrote: »

Why have the handicap system at all if not to make everyone competitive?

the handicap system isn't there to allow you to be competitive if you are scuttering the ball along the ground.
it's to compensate for different skill levels.
if you can hit the ball well enough to play to anything below 36, then assuming you are not cursed with zero distance, I agree that you should be able to play to 18 at least.
on the days where you do shank a few or dribble them a foot, then you won't be competitive that day, exact same as a scratch player.

again, your handicap isn't there to be a facility for you to play badly but still be competitive against people of any ability, who are playing well (well being playing to your handicap)

Irish Lion

So is giving a noob an 18/20 (if his/her cards are 3x100's) an anti cheating tatic to prevent bandits coming in and winning alot before they get to thier real H'cap???
If this is correct, then why are there not some tighter controls on the long time players that shoots 45pts and are obviously better than thier H'cap would suggest???
Why is there not a severe punishment on players that don't hand in a card at the end of a competition because 39 or 40 won't win??
If your card was really bad, at least you would get your .1 back, so why not hand it in??? Punish the players that don't hand in thier card after a competition severly......
Golf is supposed to be a Gentlemans Game but how many players do you know that hand in every card????

ssbob

denisoc16 wrote: »

Yes, but I would argue that if someone can play to a handicap of 23 with little or no practice then with practice, determination etc it should be acheivable to get the neccessary cuts to get down to 18 or lower. Someone who gets 18 from day one HAS to work hard in order to keep it from growing (in an ideal world, not taking into account handicap builders obviously). But someone who gets 23 won't have to work as hard as they will have more shots to play with.

In essence, by getting 18 starting off it will put the onus on you to put in the work to play to it. You might be uncompetitive for a while but by working on the short game etc then the results will come. If the work isn't put in then the .1s will follow.

Why do people who have just taken up the game assume they should be competitive straight away. It makes sense that you should have to work at anything to improve and get competitive.

Slightly off topic but: Example - if you play 1 game per week. Take that as 4 hours per week. Then I would suggest sacrificing one game per month in exchange for three 1 hour sessions on the chipping/putting green. Mightn't be as much fun but your handicap WILL drop.

GreeBo wrote: »

the handicap system isn't there to allow you to be competitive if you are scuttering the ball along the ground.
it's to compensate for different skill levels.
if you can hit the ball well enough to play to anything below 36, then assuming you are not cursed with zero distance, I agree that you should be able to play to 18 at least.
on the days where you do shank a few or dribble them a foot, then you won't be competitive that day, exact same as a scratch player.

again, your handicap isn't there to be a facility for you to play badly but still be competitive against people of any ability, who are playing well (well being playing to your handicap)

Only 21% of all golfers will ever break 90 in their golfing life so in essence
there are 79% of golfers who will never play to 18.

Both of your arguments hardly stack up.

Even though I say I haven't played/practiced as much as I'd like, I still play on average once a week.

The handicap system is there to allow players of all ability's to play to a level playing field, if you feel that 18 is the highest anyone should be then why do the R&A feel it should be 28.........

Miley Byrne

ssbob wrote: »

Only 21% of all golfers will ever break 90 in their golfing life so in essence
there are 79% of golfers who will never play to 18.

Both of your arguments hardly stack up.

Even though I say I haven't played/practiced as much as I'd like, I still play on average once a week.

The handicap system is there to allow players of all ability's to play to a level playing field, if you feel that 18 is the highest anyone should be then why do the R&A feel it should be 28.........

No, I never said "18 is the highest anyone should be". I said that that should be the highest starting handicap IMO and that fellas will find their own natural level in time depending on how much practice etc they do. If that player doesn't improve and goes the other way(ie gets a few .1s) then his handicap will eventually level out.

slave1

Unfortunately this is a conflict of golfing ability and prizes, specifically the folk who get high handicaps and either a) progress rapidly and win lots of prizes or b) abuse the handicap system to win prizes, either a) or b) will result in comments from other members to committee and grief.
There's no panacea for this one, trashed to death over the years.

ssbob

denisoc16 wrote: »

No, I never said "18 is the highest anyone should be". I said that that should be the highest starting handicap IMO and that fellas will find their own natural level in time depending on how much practice etc they do. If that player doesn't improve and goes the other way(ie gets a few .1s) then his handicap will eventually level out.

I find that completely in conflict with the handicap system, golf is based on honesty, the 3 cards you hand in should be completely honest representations of the level you are at, if these three cards show your level to be a handicap of 24 then thats the handicap you should be given, not 18 because it will take you 3 years to get to the 24 assuming you can only get 2 full shots back a year! Thats hardly fair.

Roger_007

denisoc16 wrote: »

No, I never said "18 is the highest anyone should be". I said that that should be the highest starting handicap IMO and that fellas will find their own natural level in time depending on how much practice etc they do. If that player doesn't improve and goes the other way(ie gets a few .1s) then his handicap will eventually level out.

If your actual ability is 28 and you start on 18 then it will take you 100 0.1s to get to your genuine handicap. This could take 3 or 4 years if you only play once a week. This is unreasonable. All high handicaps should be reviewed by the handicap committee at least annually and adjusted based on actual scores.
When I started playing I was given a handicap of only 12, apparently because my three cards were sub-100. It took me 2 years before I could break 90.

PARlance

denisoc16 wrote: »

No, I never said "18 is the highest anyone should be". I said that that should be the highest starting handicap IMO and that fellas will find their own natural level in time depending on how much practice etc they do. If that player doesn't improve and goes the other way(ie gets a few .1s) then his handicap will eventually level out.

I can kind of see your point but I think it's too harsh.

Trying to play devils advocate:

Handicap Sec's are based with a difficult job, how can they tell if the guy that hands in 3 cards circa 100 isn't holding back or isn't going to improve greatly(which is the exception as opposed to the rule in my experience).
They can't really, unless that person has held a previous HC...and I think this discussion is about people starting the game so that can be thrown out the window.

So, faced with a difficult job, and the fear that they may be made look silly by a bandit, a HC Sec or club may decide to go with the approach of 18 for all those handing in cards in the mid 90's - 100's.

I don't agree with this myself but if this is the case, then the Club and HC Sec should be quick to adjust upwards as soon as they see enough cards that prove 18 isn't a realistic HC.
A player shouldn't be left playing over a year with an unattainable HC IMO.

For someone with an ability of 24, it could very easily take 3 years to find his "level"*.
I think there is an onus on the player to go and look for a review if they feel they are way off.
An onus on them, but not an easy thing to do. Pride etc etc.
HC Secs/ Clubs have an onus to act on these requests, and even if there isn't a request they should be doing more monitoring.
It's in the interest of the Club I feel, they shouldn't leave a player playing with a HC many shots below their skill level for more than a year. When the member comes to the stage where they have to fork out €500,1000,1500....for next years subs, they are going to be less likely to do so knowing that in all likelihood that it will be another year of 0.1s.
It'd be a big consideration for me and I'd probably jump to another club that gave me a HC that matched my ability and the chance to get into the odd buffer or even start working my way down rather than letting the HC come to me.

After one year of returned scores, it should be very easy for a Club/HC Sec to take comfort in the fact that someone is not a bandit... Unless that bandit is working on a 3 year plan to win that Tour Bag.

*It's not fair to say, ah he should have gotten better. In my experience it took 2 years before I practiced enough to get to the stage where I actually knew and could feel what I was doing wrong/right with my swing and eventually making inroads to overall improvement.
Looking back there was 2 years of little or no overall improvement during that time, but it was all helping towards getting to that very important stage.

Mr. Larson

Roger_007 wrote: »

If your actual ability is 28 and you start on 18 then it will take you 100 0.1s to get to your genuine handicap. This could take 3 or 4 years if you only play once a week. This is unreasonable. All high handicaps should be reviewed by the handicap committee at least annually and adjusted based on actual scores.
When I started playing I was given a handicap of only 12, apparently because my three cards were sub-100. It took me 2 years before I could break 90.

Not really. Someone can get 18, not get within an asses roar of the buffer for the summer and get an upward adjustment at the end of year review. In fact, if they are way off 18 in terms of playing ability the system will flag them for upward adjustment a.f.a.i.k.

ssbob

Mr. Larson wrote: »

Not really. Someone can get 18, not get within an asses roar of the buffer for the summer and get an upward adjustment at the end of year review. In fact, if they are way off 18 in terms of playing ability the system will flag them for upward adjustment a.f.a.i.k.

My own personal experience was started with 20, had 20 straight 0.1's in a row(nowhere near buffers) during which I asked for a handicap review twice, it wasn't until I just happened to be playing with Club secretary one morning when he said "Do you want me to have a word with the handicap secretary?", following Monday I had 2 shots back..........have since been cut to 23 but the Club Secretary's position was that you need that little bit of confidence otherwise the sport will never be fun.....(He plays off 2 btw)

Irish Lion

So, is there a solution here???
I'm not sure a long "Agony in the Gardens" for a noob is a solution.
We all went through it, it took me 3 years before I won anything apart from a long drive or a nearest the pin and I went from 18 to 22 in that time, with thousands spent on subs, competition fees, lessons and equipment and in that time several guys that joined the same year as me, just gave up on membership because they considered the whole thing to be unfair.......
They all still play but just pay fees, so the club lost out on several subs because of this.

GreeBo

I had a big reply typed out but lost it and now couldnt be bothered typing it again.
Basically my opinion is this.
When you start the game you are not going to be competitive, you arent supposed to be.
A handicap levels the playing field of differing stable abilities, a total beginner is not included in this as they have not stabilized their ability.

Similarly your handicap is not there to make up for silly shots or just downright bad shots.
You cant have the general play of a 10 handicap golfer but due to the yips you play off 28, thats just not what its for.
Same goes for the days when you hit 3 balls oob or scutter it along the ground a few times; you are not going to be competitive that day.
Its the same for a middle and low handicap golfer. If I hit worse than (my) average shots then playing to my handicap is in jeopardy, this is as it should be.


If you can play to 28 then you can play close enough to 18 to warrant being given 18 to start.
10 shots when you are hitting the ball 100 times is easy enough to improve by, its probably course management for at least 8 of them, again your handicap isnt there to make up for poor course management.

It you are off 28 then it should be that you dont have the skill to be any better than that, not because you have 5 pars and a few blow up holes. If you are having 5 pars then it would be crazy to give you a handicap of anything higher than 18 (should be far less imo).

Again, people need to realise that its hard to play to your handicap, its something that happens on a good day, not an average day. You have to work on it during the round, not just playing silly shots that you have no business doing (sure I have 2 shots on this hole, might as well go for it with my 3 wood)
Of all the things that annoy me about golf, its playing with people that have the basic ability to play to mid teens, but dont due to other (controllable) reasons and have handicaps of >18 that frustrates the hell out of me.
I can almost guarantee that if you gave them a caddy they could play to 18 as often as I play to my handicap.

hmm, it seems I recreated my long reply!

ssbob

GreeBo wrote: »

If you can play to 28 then you can play close enough to 18 to warrant being given 18 to start.
10 shots when you are hitting the ball 100 times is easy enough to improve by, its probably course management for at least 8 of them, again your handicap isnt there to make up for poor course management.

This is the most outrageous argument I have ever seen!!

By your reasoning so if a golfer can play off 7 then you can play close enough to scratch to warrant being given scratch to start.

7 shots when you are hitting the ball 78/79 times is easy enough to improve by:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Course management isn't the cause of everyones bad shots, some shots you just have to hit, some shots are just hooks for no apparent reason....... I invite you to play a round with me sometime, hopefully you can help me play a round in +18, believe me many have tried!

GreeBo

ssbob wrote: »

This is the most outrageous argument I have ever seen!!

By your reasoning so if a golfer can play off 7 then you can play close enough to scratch to warrant being given scratch to start.

7 shots when you are hitting the ball 78/79 times is easy enough to improve by:eek::eek::eek::eek:

My logic doesnt hold for your 7 to scratch example, because its not supposed to.
You cannot compare someone who plays off 7 to someone who cannot play to 18.
The guy of 7 isnt trying to bogey the holes he has a shot on, he is probably playing to par 16 holes and will take a bogey on the 2 hardest ones. If you still cannot play to 18 you shouldnt be trying to par any of them. If you do its a bonus.

Sure you are going to hit some bad hooks and bad slices, but a bad 7iron is way better than a bad 3wood or driver.
Its pointless to stand up and hit your driver off the tee or a long iron/wood off the fairway if you cannot play to 18. You are trying to improve by focusing on exactly the wrong area.
Everyone needs to learn this to learn how to play golf, rather than learn how to hit a ball. hitting a ball is not golf. you get nothing for hitting a few great shots. Golf is about counting all of your shots, its far more important to not have bad ones than it is to have some great ones.

Look at it this way.
I'd be willing to bet that you can be on all the par 4s in 3 using no more than a 7iron for any shot, the par 5s in 4 and the par 3s in 2.
Do that and you are playing to 18, and thats without making a single 1 putt or getting on some hole in regulation.
Ignore the par written on the score card.
How many times have you scored a blank on a hole where you have two shots? I'd bet its more than a couple, so clearly you are not playing that hole properly, because no amount of bad 7 irons are going to mean you cant get on the green in 5 shots on a par 4.

ssbob wrote: »

Course management isn't the cause of everyones bad shots, some shots you just have to hit, some shots are just hooks for no apparent reason....... I invite you to play a round with me sometime, hopefully you can help me play a round in +18, believe me many have tried!

Its not the cause of bad shots, its the cause of bad scores.
and Id be happy to take you up on that offer sometime

ssbob

GreeBo wrote: »

My logic doesnt hold for your 7 to scratch example, because its not supposed to.
You cannot compare someone who plays off 7 to someone who cannot play to 18.
The guy of 7 isnt trying to bogey the holes he has a shot on, he is probably playing to par 16 holes and will take a bogey on the 2 hardest ones. If you still cannot play to 18 you shouldnt be trying to par any of them. If you do its a bonus.

Would you not say that a bogey for me is the equivalent of a par for the 7 handicapper therefore a birdie for them is a bonus....thats the logic(beauty) of the handicap system

GreeBo wrote: »

Sure you are going to hit some bad hooks and bad slices, but a bad 7iron is way better than a bad 3wood or driver.
Its pointless to stand up and hit your driver off the tee or a long iron/wood off the fairway if you cannot play to 18. I'd be willing to bet that you can be on all the par 4s in 3 using no more than a 7iron for any shot, the par 5s in 4 and the par 3s in 2.
Do that and you are playing to 18, and thats without making a single 1 putt or getting on some hole in regulation.
Ignore the par written on the score card.
How many times have you scored a blank on a hole where you have two shots? I'd bet its more than a couple, so clearly you are not playing that hole properly, because no amount of bad 7 irons are going to mean you cant get on the green in 5 shots on a par 4.

But there are times when you need to do it, for instance on the course I play, there is a lot of danger on holes, ie. Par 3 5th a 7 iron won't get you to safety, you'll be in the gorse to the front of the green so you have to hit 6/5iron/rescue but there is also danger right and left......what do you do there? Par 5 8th(601yards) has a carry of approx 170 yards uphill to make fairway, a 7 iron is not gonna get you there.....and by hitting driver you are bringing danger right into play. Par 4 6th has OB all down the right and gorse down the left to about 170-180 yards, again 5iron/rescue required at least depending on the wind........

Its all well and good saying you could play the course with a 7 iron but you have to hit that 7 iron perfect all of the time, how many of us can say we can do it even more than half the time?

GreeBo wrote: »

Id be happy to take you up on that offer sometime

Lets do it!

GreeBo

ssbob wrote: »

Would you not say that a bogey for me is the equivalent of a par for the 7 handicapper therefore a birdie for them is a bonus....thats the logic(beauty) of the handicap system

The problem with that approach is that it assumes the difference between a birdie and a par is the same as between a par and a bogey.
sure its 1 shot in both cases, but its much, much harder to have a birdie than it is to have a par.

ssbob wrote: »

But there are times when you need to do it, for instance on the course I play, there is a lot of danger on holes, ie. Par 3 5th a 7 iron won't get you to safety, you'll be in the gorse to the front of the green so you have to hit 6/5iron/rescue but there is also danger right and left......what do you do there? Par 5 8th(601yards) has a carry of approx 170 yards uphill to make fairway, a 7 iron is not gonna get you there.....and by hitting driver you are bringing danger right into play. Par 4 6th has OB all down the right and gorse down the left to about 170-180 yards, again 5iron/rescue required at least depending on the wind........

for the par 3, is there nothing between the tee and the green? No layup area anywhere? Even 100yards back? If not then thats a badly designed hole that will be unplayable for lots of people.
If you need to hit it 170 to make the fairway, then Im sure you can do that with a 4/5i or rescue?
The point is that it should just be about what gets you to safety, nothing else, distance is irrelevant.

ssbob wrote: »

Its all well and good saying you could play the course with a 7 iron but you have to hit that 7 iron perfect all of the time, how many of us can say we can do it even more than half the time?

You dont though. if you hit your 7i 90 or even 80% ok you will likely be still on the fairway or semi rough maybe 10-15 yards back from where a perfect one would be. Contrast that to a 3w.

ssbob wrote: »

Lets do it!

Game on!