Cost of Puppies

gh2013

I'm looking into buying a Golden Retriever puppy. There are lots of ads out there from the likes of DoneDeal and Individual Breeders. The prices are ranging widely from 150 to 550 for a chipped, vet checked, and vaccinated puppy. I'm just looking for a good family pet. Any advice on what I should be paying and what questions I need to ask would be appreciated.

paulmclaughlin

It depends on what you're looking for. Generally you get what you pay for, i.e. low cost puppy, likely high medical bills for any conditions that arise. Higher cost puppy, less likely medical problems (these are generalisations, some people chance their arm, people who love the breed do it for love rather than money, etc).

Are you looking for a purebreed or cross?
Did you care about lineage?

Take a look at this pdf to get some good information:
Before you get your puppy

gh2013

Thanks for the info Paul. I'll take a look at this doc for info. Lineage isn't a concern as we wont be breeding or showing the dog. Purebreed was what we were thinking as my wife grew up with Golden Retriever and we've always loved them. 550 a lot of money and as you say 150 could be penny wise.. so we want to make an informed decision about what the pitfalls could be and what we need to ask any seller.. Cheers

tk123

gh2013 wrote: »

Thanks for the info Paul. I'll take a look at this doc for info. Lineage isn't a concern as we wont be breeding or showing the dog. Purebreed was what we were thinking as my wife grew up with Golden Retriever and we've always loved them. 550 a lot of money and as you say 150 could be penny wise.. so we want to make an informed decision about what the pitfalls could be and what we need to ask any seller.. Cheers

Linage is not just about showing it's about health and accountability - a properly bred retriever's parents will be hip/elbow scored and have eye certs. It'll also have less of a chance or common behavioural problems retrievers have like resource guarding, being fearful and/or fear aggressive because it'll have been raised in the correct environment until it leaves it's mum. €350 is nothing if your pup runs into health or behavioural problems.

ShaShaBear

At €150 I'd have my doubts that the puppy is even pure-bred to be honest. Despite the fact that if the parents were hip and elbow scored, and the puppies all received their worming doses, vaccinations and microchip, €150 per pup would mean the owners are either incredibly well-off to make up the shortfall, or they're lying through their teeth.

Regardless of where you decide to get the puppy, the thing you need to remember above all is that you want a good family pet. What age are the members of your family? Have they been correctly trained to handle a dog? Will the dog be allowed inside to integrate with the family? Do you and your family members have enough time to walk a large and energetic dog? Do you have enough money to cover escalating costs of vet care if the cheaper puppy you purchase turns out to develop skeletal deformities which you would have been aware of had the breeder tested the parents? Will someone be available for the first few weeks to do midnight runs outside, and work on toilet-training the puppy?

If the answer to any of the above is no, or a variation of no, then you need to either rethink choice of pet, or choice of breed. Growing up with a particular breed does not equate to being experienced enough to deal with it as an adult in a family setting.

Now, for the person you are getting the potential puppy from:
Is the puppy, and any remaining siblings, kept outside or inside? Show up for a booked viewing between 30 minutes and one hour early to be sure that puppies are not being moved from a shed or barn into the house before you arrive. Does the breeder have both the mother and father available for you to see and interact with? Does the breeder keep either or both of these dogs away from you while you interact with the puppies? Do they try to tell you that the dog running about outside is the father, and that he doesn't like being inside so you don't really need to look at him? Do they have IKC registered papers for the puppies, mother and father? Do they have veterinary cards from a registered vet indicating that they have their vaccinations up to date?

If the pups are kept outside and not socialised correctly with people, children and loud noises that would be more often experienced in a home, and if any of the above questions are answered with a negative or suspicious response, just leave.

FueledByAisling

Hi OP, a lot of people on boards will recommend a IKC breeder for you but I thought I'd give you my experience.

I was intending to buy a puppy from a IKC breeder, the pup was priced at €650 :eek: . Anyway there are only 2 IKC breeders for the breed I wanted in Ireland so I didnt have much choice. I had been keeping an eye out on Dondeal and spotted a genuine ad, a family had 2 purebred as pets and decided to have a litter before spaying them both. I got to see both parents, the whole litter and the papers showing the bloodlines.

I ended up buying from said family, €300 for the pup, vaccined, wormed and microchipped. I also received her food and favourite toy. I don't think buying from Donedeal is such a bad idea as long as you know a dodgy ad from a genuine ad. As long as you don't buy from an ad that only has one sentence of writing and doesn't seem very interested in the dog then avoid at all costs. The day I went to collect my puppy I was told that one of the two IKC breeders came down and tried to buy my puppy for breeding :eek:

ShaShaBear

FueledByAisling wrote: »

Hi OP, a lot of people on boards will recommend a IKC breeder for you but I thought I'd give you my experience.

I was intending to buy a puppy from a IKC breeder, the pup was priced at €650 :eek: . Anyway there are only 2 IKC breeders for the breed I wanted in Ireland so I didnt have much choice. I had been keeping an eye out on Dondeal and spotted a genuine ad, a family had 2 purebred as pets and decided to have a litter before spaying them both. I got to see both parents, the whole litter and the papers showing the bloodlines.

I ended up buying from said family, €300 for the pup, vaccined, wormed and microchipped. I also received her food and favourite toy. I don't think buying from Donedeal is such a bad idea as long as you know a dodgy ad from a genuine ad. As long as you don't buy from an ad that only has one sentence of writing and doesn't seem very interested in the dog then avoid at all costs. The day I went to collect my puppy I was told that one of the two IKC breeders came down and tried to buy my puppy for breeding :eek:

Of course there can be good stories in all cases, but deciding to breed your dogs before you get them neutered is just irresponsible in the first place. If you are planning to neuter your dogs to prevent an increase in unwanted puppies, you shouldn't really go on to produce a litter. There is no reason for it, and there is the risk that you cannot sell them on, or that the pregnancy causes complications and you end up losing a pet as well.

There are hundreds of euros worth of costs incurred in having a litter of puppies, and we can all assure you here that a €650 price tag for a puppy doesn't come out of nowhere. We don't ever advocate DoneDeal on here, not because every single advert is a back-yard breeder with disease riddled puppies, but because people simply do not know how to tell the adverts apart, they do not know how to deal with the situation when meeting with the breeder, and despite knowing something is amiss, they still leave with a puppy because they don't want to disappoint the children/inconvenience the breeder/wait for a better puppy/leave empty-handed.

Edited to add: Not all IKC breeders are reputable breeders, anyone here will tell you that. But most people here will also tell you not to believe everything you hear

name0123

would you consider a rescue pup. I know you would like a pure bred golden retriever but if you have no intention of breeding would you not consider a nice resuce pup

I only say this because before I got my 3 (all rescue) we were dead set on only getting a top spec pure bred golden retriever aswell, they are gorgeous dogs. but then one day we decided ah lets just go get a pup. we ended up getting another 2 after the 1st lad, they are all cross breeds of some sort, somedays I see diff breeds in them so couldnt be sure what crosses they are. I know if I got a pure breed it would prob be just as amazing but you dont need a pure breed to have a truly fantastic dog. just something to think about

SillyMangoX

Very good post by ShaShaBear, and I would listen to every bit of advice there, but the only think I'll mention is a lot of breeders won't own the father as well as the mother, often times they seek out a dog from another breeder that compliments their bitch and has strong points where she has downfalls so it's not the end of the world if they don't have the father, they may have traveled across the country to find the perfect dog, however if you wish to see him a reputable breeder would have no problems giving you the contact details of the male's owners and would probably also have pictures of him!

tk123

gregers85 wrote: »

Have a look here http://labradorireland.com/

The Labrador Retriever Club of Ireland, Im sure they will point you in the right direction

They'll probably just point the OP to http://www.aigrc.com/ - the GR club..as they are different breed to Labradors
I found my pup's breeder from aigrc btw - she's a bombproof pup from being raised so well by the breeder compared to her big bro!

gregers85

tk123 wrote: »

They'll probably just point the OP to http://www.aigrc.com/ - the GR club..as they are different breed to Labradors
I found my pup's breeder from aigrc btw - she's a bombproof pup from being raised so well by the breeder compared to her big bro!

whoops my bad indeed they are!! red faced here ha

muddypaws

FueledByAisling wrote: »

Hi OP, a lot of people on boards will recommend a IKC breeder for you but I thought I'd give you my experience.

I was intending to buy a puppy from a IKC breeder, the pup was priced at €650 :eek: . Anyway there are only 2 IKC breeders for the breed I wanted in Ireland so I didnt have much choice. I had been keeping an eye out on Dondeal and spotted a genuine ad, a family had 2 purebred as pets and decided to have a litter before spaying them both. I got to see both parents, the whole litter and the papers showing the bloodlines.

I ended up buying from said family, €300 for the pup, vaccined, wormed and microchipped. I also received her food and favourite toy. I don't think buying from Donedeal is such a bad idea as long as you know a dodgy ad from a genuine ad. As long as you don't buy from an ad that only has one sentence of writing and doesn't seem very interested in the dog then avoid at all costs. The day I went to collect my puppy I was told that one of the two IKC breeders came down and tried to buy my puppy for breeding :eek:

If they owned both parents, and both were IKC registered, why did they not register them?

Could it possibly be because they weren't telling you the whole truth? Perhaps the bitch had already had more litters than are allowed to be registered, or was too young, or too old? Or possibly because the papers didn't belong either one or both of the parents? One of the oldest tricks in the book unfortunately for puppy farmers to put the pups and the mother in a home, usually a relatives, and pretend that both parents live there, and have a happy life.

gh2013

Thanks everyone for your feedback. First time using boards so wasn't sure what to expect. Some good advice so basically i need to do some more thinking. Will post back when we decide what to do.

FueledByAisling

muddypaws wrote: »

If they owned both parents, and both were IKC registered, why did they not register them?

Could it possibly be because they weren't telling you the whole truth? Perhaps the bitch had already had more litters than are allowed to be registered, or was too young, or too old? Or possibly because the papers didn't belong either one or both of the parents? One of the oldest tricks in the book unfortunately for puppy farmers to put the pups and the mother in a home, usually a relatives, and pretend that both parents live there, and have a happy life.

In order for a puppy to be registered with IKC both parents need to be bought from the IKC, only one of the parents were. I don't understand the full logic behind this but this is what the IKC told me, even though the mother is from a reptubable breeder in the UK

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Of course there can be good stories in all cases, but deciding to breed your dogs before you get them neutered is just irresponsible in the first place. If you are planning to neuter your dogs to prevent an increase in unwanted puppies, you shouldn't really go on to produce a litter. There is no reason for it, and there is the risk that you cannot sell them on, or that the pregnancy causes complications and you end up losing a pet as well.

There are hundreds of euros worth of costs incurred in having a litter of puppies, and we can all assure you here that a €650 price tag for a puppy doesn't come out of nowhere. We don't ever advocate DoneDeal on here, not because every single advert is a back-yard breeder with disease riddled puppies, but because people simply do not know how to tell the adverts apart, they do not know how to deal with the situation when meeting with the breeder, and despite knowing something is amiss, they still leave with a puppy because they don't want to disappoint the children/inconvenience the breeder/wait for a better puppy/leave empty-handed.

Edited to add: Not all IKC breeders are reputable breeders, anyone here will tell you that. But most people here will also tell you not to believe everything you hear

You are right in some cases, but being an animal person who has been buying horses their whole life and going on to study veterinary I do have the ability to fish out the good ads. Of course not everyone has this ability, but at the end of the day that's the buyers fault for not having a more experienced friend help them in the process. If somebody goes out and buys a badly bred dog due to feeling guilty then that's the fault of the owners inexperience.

andreac

FueledByAisling wrote: »

In order for a puppy to be registered with IKC both parents need to be bought from the IKC, only one of the parents were. I don't understand the full logic behind this but this is what the IKC told me, even though the mother is from a reptubable breeder in the UK




You are right in some cases, but being an animal person who has been buying horses their whole life and going on to study veterinary I do have the ability to fish out the good ads. Of course not everyone has this ability, but at the end of the day that's the buyers fault for not having a more experienced friend help them in the process. If somebody goes out and buys a badly bred dog due to feeling guilty then that's the fault of the owners inexperience.

Sorry that's not true. If the parent is reg with the kc in uk you can still register the pups. Sure how do all the breeders who use stud dogs in the uk reg their dogs so that was not an excuse, it was a lie.
If the breeder wanted to reg those pups they could have. Obv just wanted to save money and cut corners...

ShaShaBear

FueledByAisling wrote: »

In order for a puppy to be registered with IKC both parents need to be bought from the IKC, only one of the parents were. I don't understand the full logic behind this but this is what the IKC told me, even though the mother is from a reptubable breeder in the UK




You are right in some cases, but being an animal person who has been buying horses their whole life and going on to study veterinary I do have the ability to fish out the good ads. Of course not everyone has this ability, but at the end of the day that's the buyers fault for not having a more experienced friend help them in the process. If somebody goes out and buys a badly bred dog due to feeling guilty then that's the fault of the owners inexperience.

Of course, that's exactly what I am saying. Simply that people cannot be trusted to use good logic, advice and common sense. So it's easier not to advocate the landmine that is DoneDeal at all.

But you have to admit, your dog's breeders telling you that one of the Kennel Club breeders approached them to use your puppy for breeding is just silly. If your pup was not registered, and by your logic that would mean that no further pups can be registered, why would a renowned KC breeder want an unregistered puppy? It's simple things like that, where a story doesn't add up, that people simply don't watch for.

muddypaws

FueledByAisling wrote: »

In order for a puppy to be registered with IKC both parents need to be bought from the IKC, only one of the parents were. I don't understand the full logic behind this but this is what the IKC told me, even though the mother is from a reptubable breeder in the UK

Sorry, you said you saw the papers, so I assumed you meant both parents were registered, so I'm a bit confused, unless you mean one was registered with IKC, and one with KC?

Lemlin

To be honest I don't see the problem with breeders not always registering pups with the IKC. My brother and I previously bred Springer Spaniel pups.

We would often give the pups their first inoculation and then sell them with the paperwork for registration should the new owner wish to register the pup themselves.

Springer pups were going for €300 to €350 registered but we used to sell ours for €200 with the completed paperwork signed and leave it up to the new owner if they wished to register with the IKC. This would generally cost them €35 for second inoculation and microchipping and €30 to register and get dog in their name. Do the pup was working out at around €265 to €270 if they chose to register it.

After all, IKC registration is only really needed for showing the dog or breeding it, which few people do anyway.

I would suggest all the necessary checks are done re the breeder though. We were and are responsible breeders. A dog would only have a litter every two years.

tk123

Lemlin wrote: »

To be honest I don't see the problem with breeders not always registering pups with the IKC. My brother and I previously bred Springer Spaniel pups.

We would often give the pups their first inoculation and then sell them with the paperwork for registration should the new owner wish to register the pup themselves.

Springer pups were going for €300 to €350 registered but we used to sell ours for €200 with the completed paperwork signed and leave it up to the new owner if they wished to register with the IKC. This would generally cost them €35 for second inoculation and microchipping and €30 to register and get dog in their name. Do the pup was working out at around €265 to €270 if they chose to register it.

After all, IKC registration is only really needed for showing the dog or breeding it, which few people do anyway.

I would suggest all the necessary checks are done re the breeder though. We were and are responsible breeders. A dog would only have a litter every two years.

How long ago was this because most of what your saying by today's standards is rubbish and sounds like the lines BYBs feed unsuspecting buyers?

Lemlin

tk123 wrote: »

How long ago was this because most of what your saying by today's standards is rubbish and sounds like the lines BYBs feed unsuspecting buyers?

Last set of pups was 2 years ago. We have since stopped breeding our prize Springer as she was older than 6. She had litters at 2, 4 and 6.

Perhaps you could point out what exactly I have said that is "rubbish"?

The fact is plenty of people have no need to register their pup with the IKC so I don't see the point in a breeder registering the pup and charging them for it.

I've already pointed out the cost difference above.

Let the buyer have the paperwork and decide themselves. Pups can be registered individually or as a litter.

For plenty of people their IKC registration form sits in a file at home and is never needed.

Why should they pay €100 to €150 extra for a piece of paper they'll never need or use?

I have no problem giving them a copy of both the sire and dam's lineage to prove the standard. Any decent breeder should.

andreac

Sorry but the only person who can register the pups is the breeder, not the new owner.

andreac

It doesn't cost an extra 150 to register a pup. It's 15 per pup with the ikc then they must be microchipped so you would be talking max 50 per pup, prob cheaper actually to register a pup.
Only the breeder can register the pup they bred so saying you can give the paper work to new owner is wrong as they will not be able to register the pup.

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

Sorry but the only person who can register the pups is the breeder, not the new owner.

We used to give the owner the completed registration form signed. We then left it up to them if they wished to send it into the IKC.

I think you'll find the IKC don't mind who sends in the form once it is signed by the breeder and accompanied by payment.

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

It doesn't cost an extra 150 to register a pup. It's 15 per pup with the ikc then they must be microchipped so you would be talking max 50 per pup, prob cheaper actually to register a pup.
Only the breeder can register the pup they bred so saying you can give the paper work to new owner is wrong as they will not be able to register the pup.

I know it doesn't cost an extra €150 to register a pup. What I am saying is that breeders tend to add €100 to €160 for registering the pups. That's what we found with Springers anyway.

That's why I am saying outs worked out at €260 or so registered but other breeders were charging the extra €100 to €150 for registering the pups.

Why would the new owner not be able to register the pup? If they send in the form along with payment the form is then sent to me and I forward it onto them.

Pups can be registered as a litter or individually.

In essence I suppose I am registering the pup because I sign the paperwork but I am leaving it to the new owner if they wish to register with the IKC or not.

Knine

Your post is not correct. The new owner cannot register the dogs themselves. The breeder has to do it.

You register the whole litter at the same time.

The new owner gets a registration cert and on the back of this is a transfer of ownership. Each form has the unique microchip number & the dogs kennel (show) name.

I would have no interest in buying unregistered dogs. Sure with no reg number the pedigree means nothing & can be made up.

It also means the bitches can be bred at any age and every time they come into heat as the IKC have a code of ethics which applies to registered breeds.

yellowlabrador

A lot of people who have working dogs don't bother to register them, some of them with fantastic pedigrees. With them the proof is the ability, health and vigour. We have a line of dogs where we've bred a bitch only once, to a carefully selected dog and we are at generation no 5. We could sell the pups for good money but they only go to homes in our circle of friends, often they wait a few years. I wouldn't take a bit of paper work at face value, and as for genetic problems, maybe their standards have a fair part in the blame. It's in their interest to promote the idea that 'registered' breeders are the way to go. I agree that a good breeder is important, but that equally applies to any cross breed. A lot of good strains of labrador have a bit of collie in them and I've known quite a few that were excellent and very healthy, living to a ripe old age.

We have one pup who had inturning eyelashes, leading to sore eyes. She had a small operation to correct this and we kept her and spayed her, just in case it was something that could recur. She's 13 now and as lively as a pup, up to all kinds of mischief and one of the greatest friendliest dogs ever.

Lemlin

Knine wrote: »

Your post is not correct. The new owner cannot register the dogs themselves. The breeder has to do it.

You register the whole litter at the same time.

The new owner gets a registration cert and on the back of this is a transfer of ownership. Each form has the unique microchip number & the dogs kennel (show) name.

I would have no interest in buying unregistered dogs. Sure with no reg number the pedigree means nothing & can be made up.

It also means the bitches can be bred at any age and every time they come into heat as the IKC have a code of ethics which applies to registered breeds.

Pups do not have to be registered as a litter. Here is the form for the registration of a single dog:

http://www.ikc.ie/sites/default/files/sites/default/files/uploads/Form%20No%201%20May%2013_App%20for%20Registrat%20form%202004.pdf

Like I said, I suppose I am registering the pup because I sign the paperwork and give it to the new owner. I then explain that they need to get the pup vet checked for their piece of mind, microchipped and its second inoculation.

They can then decide if they wish to send in the IKC registration or not. Like I said, alot of our Springers went for pets or shooting dogs and the new owners had no need to IKC register them. They weren't going to breed, stud or show them so why go to the extra cost?

How can a pedigree be made up if both parents are registered? Just because a dog is not registered does not mean they have no pedigree.

I also give all new owners a photocopy of the lineage of the dam and sire so they are sure of its pedigree.

As for the IKC Code of Ethics regarding breeding, have you read it? I'd see it more as a bottom of the barrel minimum standard.

It allows a dog to have 6 litters between 1 and 8 years if age. That's practically one a year and that is too many IMO. One every two years is enough.

Knine

Lemlin wrote: »

Pups do not have to be registered as a litter. Here is the form for the registration of a single dog:

http://www.ikc.ie/sites/default/files/sites/default/files/uploads/Form%20No%201%20May%2013_App%20for%20Registrat%20form%202004.pdf

Like I said, I suppose I am registering the pup because I sign the paperwork and give it to the new owner. I then explain that they need to get the pup vet checked for their piece of mind, microchipped and its second inoculation.

They can then decide if they wish to send in the IKC registration or not. Like I said, alot of our Springers went for pets or shooting dogs and the new owners had no need to IKC register them. They weren't going to breed, stud or show them so why go to the extra cost?

How can a pedigree be made up if both parents are registered? Just because a dog is not registered does not mean they have no pedigree.

I also give all new owners a photocopy of the lineage of the dam and sire so they are sure of its pedigree.

Sorry I will rephrase it. Reputable Breeders register the whole litter, no pup would ever leave my house not microchipped & registered, vaccinated. All paperwork would be there for inspection, along with all required health tests.

I send on the registration cert only when the new puppy is happily settled in their new home.

You are still registering the dog yourself as you have signed the paperwork, you are just charging the new owners.

To be honest I would run a mile if I was buying a dog and you handed me the paperwork to do it myself. FYI I have bred many working dogs including dogs that qualified in the field.

Lemlin

Knine wrote: »

Sorry I will rephrase it. Reputable Breeders register the whole litter, no pup would ever leave my house not microchipped & registered, vaccinated. All paperwork would be there for inspection, along with all required health tests.

I send on the registration cert only when the new puppy is happily settled in their new home.

You are still registering the dog yourself as you have signed the paperwork, you are just charging the new owners.

To be honest I would run a mile if I was buying a dog and you handed me the paperwork to do it myself. FYI I have bred many working dogs including dogs that qualified in the field.

I have all paperwork ready for inspection. Inoculation certs for my dogs, health checks, their IKC papers, proof of pedigree etc.

That's the thing. I am not charging the owners. As I said, they will pay €300 to €350 for a fully registered pup. I charge €200 and let them decide themselves if they wish to register the pup.

It's your personal preference to run a mile. But am I suddenly not a "reputable breeder" because I deal in this way?

Have a read on here of the thread about the "reputable breeder" in Cork who has been breeding Labrador pups with hip problems for years and continues to breed them. How do they continue to meet the IKC code of ethics you point to? Yet you try to say I'm not a reputable breeder because I allow people a choice.

You of course would want a registered pup because you are a breeder yourself. May I ask you what use have a family who want the dog as a pet or a man who wants it for hunting with IKC papers?

Knine

Lemlin wrote: »

I have all paperwork ready for inspection. Inoculation certs for my dogs, health checks, their IKC papers, proof of pedigree etc.

That's the thing. I am not charging the owners. As I said, they will pay €300 to €350 for a fully registered pup. I charge €200 and let them decide themselves if they wish to register the pup.

It's your personal preference to run a mile. But am I suddenly not a "reputable breeder" because I deal in this way?

Have a read on here of the thread about the "reputable breeder" in Cork who has been breeding Lavrador pups with hip problems for years and continues to breed them. How do they continue to meet the IKC code of ethics you point to? Yet you try to say I'm not a reputable breeder because I allow people a choice.

You of course would want a registered pup because you are a breeder yourself. May I ask you what use have a family who want the dog as a pet or a man who wants it for hunting with IKC papers?

Can you explain how that Lab breeder is reputable if they are breeding from dogs with bad hips?

Someone who has a pet may decide they want to show their dog or compete with it at various dog activities. They may decide to breed from it if it shows great talent. There are lots of reasons why they might prefer a registered dog.

I would consider someone not registering & microchipping their dogs to be a backyard breeder out to make money. The welfare of any of my breeding is paramount hence they can be identified by the microchip. You send your pups on their merry way & what happens if the new owner does not bother with having the dog chipped & it ends up in the pound or worse?

It would not be just my preference to run a mile. Anybody with any common sense would not pay money for such a dog. You might have morals about breeding but why do you think puppy farmers don't register their dogs?

Edited to add by health Certs I mean PRA results & HD scores, not a vet check up

JustAThought

When I went through the IKC & the breed club to try & source the dog I wanted I quickly found it was all sewnup. IKC recommended three breeders, two were partners , & a " second/third" -all knew each other for years & the prices were pretty much the same -between two & a half & three thousand euro. Unbelievable. Suffice to say I did my shopping elsewhere & got a beautiful pup, the breed I wanted, a prize winner now & fully papered & IKC registered.

Btw anyone can register as a breeder with the kennel club -it costs little enough to set it up with them.

It is very difficult to buy a specific breed dog in this country - pet shops can't sell, No one breeder or not is officially allowed advertise their dogs for sale at IKC events - & all lists & recommendations come from the breed club or the IKC secretary. It's no wonder so many thousands of people use the Internet & modern technologies to successfully source the dogs they want at the price & standards/conditions they expect.

I dislike immensely the claim that " people around here " don't like or use done deal or the implication everyone on it is a monster , puppy farmer, inhumane or a cheat. It is a legitimate site with rules & policies & one that is highly popular & successful & much used.

I despair of Private interest groups & breeders who it seems will never see the normal-ness of advertising or buying online, or shopping for the best fit for your needs. The Internet levels the playing field & takes the mystique & astronomical price expectations out if it.
Not everyone wants a state of the art elite breed standard dog that will pass the scrutiny of European dog experts in competition conditions to a list of highly technical criteria measured to the last milimiter of the dog.
People also just want a specific breed pet, and the Internet allows them to access this & shop around for the best, safest & fairest for their needs.

Knine

JustAThought wrote: »

When I went through the IKC & the breed club to try & source the dog I wanted I quickly found it was all sewnup. IKC recommended three breeders, two were partners , & a " second/third" -all knew each other for years & the prices were pretty much the same -between two & a half & three thousand euro. Unbelievable. Suffice to say I did my shopping elsewhere & got a beautiful pup, the breed I wanted, a prize winner now & fully papered & IKC registered.

Btw anyone can register as a breeder with the kennel club -it costs little enough to set it up with them.

It is very difficult to buy a specific breed dog in this country - pet shops can't sell, No one breeder or not is officially allowed advertise their dogs for sale at IKC events - & all lists & recommendations come from the breed club or the IKC secretary. It's no wonder so many thousands of people use the Internet & modern technologies to successfully source the dogs they want at the price & standards/conditions they expect.

I dislike immensely the claim that " people around here " don't like or use done deal or the implication everyone on it is a monster , puppy farmer, inhumane or a cheat. It is a legitimate site with rules & policies & one that is highly popular & successful & much used.

I despair of Private interest groups & breeders who it seems will never see the normal-ness of advertising or buying online, or shopping for the best fit for your needs. The Internet levels the playing field & takes the mystique & astronomical price expectations out if it.
Not everyone wants a state of the art elite breed standard dog that will pass the scrutiny of European dog experts in competition conditions to a list of highly technical criteria measured to the last milimiter of the dog.
People also just want a specific breed pet, and the Internet allows them to access this & shop around for the best, safest & fairest for their needs.

Just to clarify it costs a hell of a lot of money to produce decent quality dogs who are nice representatives of their breed. Define your idea of prize winner? It is not sewn up as such rather I have found that when potential new owners contact me, many want a dog right now or are not prepared to wait for a suitable puppy.

I am one of those so called club members & I work very hard trying to source puppies or rescues for people. However out of every 5/6 calls there may be only one or 2 people I would contemplate as being any way suitable to have a dog of these particular breeds. Yes us reputable people don't just sell our pets to the first buyer that flashes the cash.

I know lots and lots of reputable people who use Donedeal. The problem people are trying to convey on this forum is that for novice new owners it can be very difficult for them to sort out the cowboys from the decent breeders.

Another aspect you are overlooking is that lots of reputable breeders with good dogs have a waiting list. Again many people just decide they want a dog now & won't wait.

Yes I agree that people might not want a top show winner but I can tell you in my experience they do want a dog that resembles their chosen breed. One only has to look at certain websites & be appalled at what are being sold as pedigree dogs. Sure they may as well rescue a dog or get a crossbreed if they are willing to hand over money but don't care what the dog looks like.

Nody

Well seeing the discussion going on I think this is suitable article to add as it was published only yesterday.

Almost one in five puppies bought from online sellers die before they reach six months old.

The Kennel Club has discovered that half of the dogs show behavioural problems, while more than one in ten have serious health issues.

They are warning would-be owners to avoid retailers who use websites and social media as a front for cruel puppy farms. Welfare organisations say such breeders are interested only in profits, rather than the animals’ well-being.

Full article is here.

dharma200

I am wondering in regards to this issue would it be worthwhile having a thread purely for the awful adverts online for animals.... Much like the car thread which is great for people going in the likes of done deal,and not picking up on some of the signs in adds that something isn't right ( I am not in any way comparing a car to an animal but you see what I mean) .... Or is purpose this might actually give advertising to these breeders.... I just wouldn't buy a dog off done deal.. There are rescues there and dogs for free which is ok, but I honestly don't thing animals should be allowed to be up for sale on these sites... There should be some sort of regulation if you are selling an animal you must meet a certain criteria.. Not whip an add on done deal for three euro with no certs checks etc... The only way it seems to stop these cruel people is to never ever buy a dog online...... If every decent person stuck tot his then these people would find it harder and harder to operate their Nast cruel business.

Lemlin

Knine wrote: »

Can you explain how that Lab breeder is reputable if they are breeding from dogs with bad hips?

Someone who has a pet may decide they want to show their dog or compete with it at various dog activities. They may decide to breed from it if it shows great talent. There are lots of reasons why they might prefer a registered dog.

I would consider someone not registering & microchipping their dogs to be a backyard breeder out to make money. The welfare of any of my breeding is paramount hence they can be identified by the microchip. You send your pups on their merry way & what happens if the new owner does not bother with having the dog chipped & it ends up in the pound or worse?

It would not be just my preference to run a mile. Anybody with any common sense would not pay money for such a dog. You might have morals about breeding but why do you think puppy farmers don't register their dogs?

Edited to add by health Certs I mean PRA results & HD scores, not a vet check up

My point is they are not a "reputable breeder" but you seem to be saying anyone that gives IKC papers with their pups and ensures they are chipped is a reputable breeder. My point is they are not. My point is also that the IKC Code Of Ethics you pointed to earlier is actually a dreadful example of breeding standards.

Yea, someone who has a pet may decide they want to show it. Hence I have given them the papers to register the dog if they wish to do so. You're still trying to stick to this point that the pups I sell are unregistered. They are not. I just give the new owner the choice of whether they wish to go to the extra cost of registration.

You say the new owner may not chip the dog. Well I explain to the owner the cost of their investment and that the dog needs its second inoculation and should be chipped when this happens. What if you send out a chipped dog and the owner doesn't register it with FIDO? The microchip you have paid for is useless anyway. Or the owner you sell to doesn't bother bringing it to get its second inoculation? You have to have some trust in the new owner. You are using conjecture about chipping which could just as much apply to a dog you sell.

To be honest, you are the one making outlandish comments here. You tried to make claims earlier about the IKC Code of Ethics, any decent breeder would see it is a terrible standard.

You also tried to say any dog without papers does not have a pedigree. Again, that is completely false. A dog not having papers does not change it's lineage.

You also tried to say that a litter have to be registered. As I said, dogs can be registered individually.

You say above that you have PRA and hip scores. A pup cannot have PRA results or hip scores so I presume you mean these for the parents. I also have these but I assure you you are one of few others like me if you do.

Let me tell you about my "IKC experience". I bought a dog two years ago. I rang the relevant club. The secretary of that breed club assured me she would come back to me. She never did.

I chased her twice and was given the number for people in Wexford. I rang the first number. The people wanted €600 for the pups yet they had no hip scores for the parents. Hip scores are vital for this breed (I will not put up the breed as it will allow people to identify the club).

I rang the secretary again and said this. I was told hip scores would be tough to get and the puppy would be at least €1000 with parents with them as they are expensive. She told me she would come back to me again and never did. She said I should expect to pay €500 to €600 without the health checks. I chased her again on a few occasions over a month period and contacted three or four suggested breeders but none had pups with parents with scores and all wanted extortionate amounts. In fact, over a month period and ringing four or five breeders the club did not provide me with one who had the health checks I would see as vitally necessary.

I then contacted a breeder I found on Gumtree who was selling pups with both parents hip scored for €400. No where near the €1000 the IKC club had advised, or the €500 to €600 I was told a pup without the health checks would be.

I now have a stunning example of the breed that I paid €400 for and which has both parents fully health checked. Something the IKC club did not offer.

Lemlin

Knine wrote: »

Just to clarify it costs a hell of a lot of money to produce decent quality dogs who are nice representatives of their breed. Define your idea of prize winner? It is not sewn up as such rather I have found that when potential new owners contact me, many want a dog right now or are not prepared to wait for a suitable puppy.

I am one of those so called club members & I work very hard trying to source puppies or rescues for people. However out of every 5/6 calls there may be only one or 2 people I would contemplate as being any way suitable to have a dog of these particular breeds. Yes us reputable people don't just sell our pets to the first buyer that flashes the cash.

I know lots and lots of reputable people who use Donedeal. The problem people are trying to convey on this forum is that for novice new owners it can be very difficult for them to sort out the cowboys from the decent breeders.

Another aspect you are overlooking is that lots of reputable breeders with good dogs have a waiting list. Again many people just decide they want a dog now & won't wait.

Yes I agree that people might not want a top show winner but I can tell you in my experience they do want a dog that resembles their chosen breed. One only has to look at certain websites & be appalled at what are being sold as pedigree dogs. Sure they may as well rescue a dog or get a crossbreed if they are willing to hand over money but don't care what the dog looks like.

Yes and alot of these dogs are sold with IKC papers which is exactly my point. IKC papers do not mean people are getting a breed standard dog.

Perhaps if the IKC policed who they hand papers out to a bit more, or updated their code of ethics things mightn't be as bad.

Allowing a dog to have six litters between the ages of 1 and 8 is a terrible standard. A dog should not be having a litter practically every year.

liquoriceall

Just to say between my mother, sister & I we have 3 different breeds of dogs, 5 dogs in total, all came via done deal, all are healthy, we have never had any trouble with them. The oldest is 12 the youngest 3. Done deal is fine to get a pup if you are sensible and do your homework

Knine

I could be here all day answering your rant. Never have I said IKC means reputable.

The IKC code of ethics does give the dogs some level of protection. I do not know of any reputable breeders who breed their bitches 6/7 times. However there is NO protection at all for unregistered dogs.

You stated your dogs are sold IKC reg. They are not. As for microchipping, the dogs are registered to the breeder if the new owner does not change the chip. I vet all new owners and have never had a new owner not change a chip.

You are exactly the type of person I would advise people to avoid when buying a puppy.

A decent reputable breeder would never allow a puppy to leave their kennels without being microchipped. They register the whole litter. It is cost cutting on your side. Back yard breeding.

Lemlin

Knine wrote: »

I could be here all day answering your rant. Never have I said IKC means reputable.

The IKC code of ethics does give the dogs some level of protection. I do not know of any reputable breeders who breed their bitches 6/7 times. However there is NO protection at all for unregistered dogs.

You stated your dogs are sold IKC reg. They are not. As for microchipping, the dogs are registered to the breeder if the new owner does not change the chip. I vet all new owners and have never had a new owner not change a chip.

You are exactly the type of person I would advise people to avoid when buying a puppy.

A decent reputable breeder would never allow a puppy to leave their kennels without being microchipped. They register the whole litter. It is cost cutting on your side. Back yard breeding.

The IKC Code of Ethics is as useless as the paper it is written on.

You seem to be ignoring where I am handing the cost saving onto the new owner? They have the CHOICE to register the pup and incur that cost if they wish to do so.

You have also chosen to ignore my IKC experience. Being sent to buy a pup for an extortionate price to several club recommended breeders who had no health checks.

You also choose to ignore how I have pointed out your outlandish comments which are untrue. You've made a number of claims, such as that a dog without papers does not have pedigree, which are totally untrue.

I, on the other hand, have stuck to fact.

Go ahead and label me with names. If that's the best you can do because you are losing a debate then work away.

Feel free to pm me for my address and come and see the facilities and my dogs. Just because someone doesn't follow the same procedure as yourself does not make them a backyard breeder.

Knine

Lemlin wrote: »

The IKC Code of Ethics is as useless as the paper it is written on.

You seem to be ignoring where I am handing the cost saving onto the new owner?

You have also chosen to ignore my IKC experience. Being sent to buy a pup for an extortionate price to several club recommended breeders who had no health checks.

You also choose to ignore how I have pointed out your outlandish comments which are untrue. You've made a number of claims, such as that a dog without papers does not have pedigree, which are totally untrue.

I, on the other hand, have stuck to fact.

Go ahead and label me with names. If that's the best you can do because you are losing a debate then work away.

Feel free to pm me for my address and come and see the facilities and my dogs.

I think you need to read over my posts again. What comments would they be?

You are passing the costs & the responsibility on to the new owners. No offence meant but registered ESS that are just pet quality are not worth a huge amount unless they are proven titled working parents or show dogs.

How many dogs not microchipped die in pounds do you reckon?

If a breeder has no health checks done, then buy elsewhere. They are certainly not reputable, even if they involved in a club.

Edited to add I never said a dog not registered does not have a pedigree. Read my posts. I said the pedigree means nothing & it could be made up.

DBB

Okay folks, I think you've made your points now. To stop this thread being derailed any further, I'll ask all posters to stick to the original topic from this point on.
If people want to discuss the ins and outs of kennel clubs, registration etc, feel free to start a new thread. But no more on this thread please.
Do not reply to this post on thread.
Thanks,
DBB

b_mac

dharma200 wrote: »

I am wondering in regards to this issue would it be worthwhile having a thread purely for the awful adverts online for animals.... Much like the car thread which is great for people going in the likes of done deal,and not picking up on some of the signs in adds that something isn't right ( I am not in any way comparing a car to an animal but you see what I mean) .... Or is purpose this might actually give advertising to these breeders.... I just wouldn't buy a dog off done deal.. There are rescues there and dogs for free which is ok, but I honestly don't thing animals should be allowed to be up for sale on these sites... There should be some sort of regulation if you are selling an animal you must meet a certain criteria.. Not whip an add on done deal for three euro with no certs checks etc... The only way it seems to stop these cruel people is to never ever buy a dog online...... If every decent person stuck tot his then these people would find it harder and harder to operate their Nast cruel business.

I'd have to agree here. Seen an ad on DD yesterday and the pups had tie wraps round their necks!!? If the pups were left for more than a few days... Well doesnt bare to think what would happen.

andreac

b_mac wrote: »

I'd have to agree here. Seen an ad on DD yesterday and the pups had tie wraps round their necks!!? If the pups were left for more than a few days... Well doesnt bare to think what would happen.

What do you mean by tie wraps? My puppies have colour coded Velcro collars on them which are checked everyday and made bigger as the pups are growing. So don't always think the worst when you see things like that. People who go to the trouble of doing things like that would not neglect the puppies like you think.

b_mac

andreac wrote: »

What do you mean by tie wraps? My puppies have colour coded Velcro collars on them which are checked everyday and made bigger as the pups are growing. So don't always think the worst when you see things like that. People who go to the trouble of doing things like that would not neglect the puppies like you think.

I mean a tie wrap you buy for DIY. Once you tie them, you need to cut them to remove the hold.

Knine

We put little colour coded collars on the pups so we can tell them apart, weigh them to make sure they are gaining. It also means no mistakes are made when microchipping or worming.

Can you imagine a litter of pups all the same colour and trying to tell them apart!

ShaShaBear

Knine wrote: »

We put little colour coded collars on the pups so we can tell them apart, weigh them to make sure they are gaining. It also means no mistakes are made when microchipping or worming.

Can you imagine a litter of pups all the same colour and trying to tell them apart!

I had this problem with two rats from the same litter, I can only imagine what it would be like with 8 or 9 puppies, especially since a fair few purebred puppies (from certain breeds) have very little distinguishable markings if they are the same colour, like a lab or spitz