RPSI

metrovick001 · 25-08-2013 8:12pm #1

On the 25-August-2013 the Railway Preservation Society of Ireland [RPSI] ran a mystery train using former Dublin South Eastern Railway [DSER] loco No.461 and a rake of Craven coaches from Dublin's Connolly station to a secret location which transpired to be the city of Kilkenny. The special was filmed near Cherryville Junction, Co. Kildare on the Waterford branch.

rameire · 25-08-2013 9:35pm

L1011 · 25-08-2013 10:06pm

Was getting off a 22k last night and explaining to my partner who never used trains until recently about having to lean out the window and use the handle on the Mk2s when I noticed the big lumps of orange (and some blue) beside me. Think it had a freight livery 071 on it then, though.

demanufactured · 25-08-2013 10:35pm

What type of coal does a steam engine use.?

Cookie_Monster · 25-08-2013 10:39pm

demanufactured wrote: »

What type of coal does a steam engine use.?

I remember seeing a series on a preserved line in the UK, the one that has the old BR1 vans in Irish colours. They import the stuff from Poland as the quality available in the UK is no longer good enough.

The_Wanderer · 25-08-2013 11:04pm

Evening all,

A bumper weekend of photos from trips to Belfast on Saturday to travel and photograph the RPSI's Bangor Belle railtour, while on the Sunday I chased the RPSI's Marble City Railtour to Kilkenny.

RPSI Bangor Belle Pictures: http://thewandererphotos.smugmug.com/RailtoursPreservedRailways/2013/RPSI-The-Bangor-Belle
RPSI Marble City Pictures: http://thewandererphotos.smugmug.com/RailtoursPreservedRailways/2013/RPSI-The-Marble-City
Latest August 2013 Pictures include NI Railways pictures from Portadown, Lisburn, Belfast Central, Holywood, Marino & Helen's Bay on Saturday, plus the G.A.A. Specials from Mayo on Sunday morning. http://thewandererphotos.smugmug.com/2013Photos/August-2013#!/i-8SGGp2v

Enjoy!
The Wanderer.

Fred Swanson · 26-08-2013 1:52pm

This post has been deleted.

Losty Dublin · 26-08-2013 2:13pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Even less of a secret seeing that it was advertised as the Marble City Railtour

Thedarkb · 28-07-2015 1:00am

I know this is an old thread but the RPSI have said that if there's a fatality involving one of their trains, irish rail could cut off their access to the mainline. How would irish rail, as a seperate operator, be allowed to do that?

Captain Chaos · 28-07-2015 7:34am

Thedarkb wrote: »

I know this is an old thread but the RPSI have said that if there's a fatality involving one of their trains, irish rail could cut off their access to the mainline. How would irish rail, as a seperate operator, be allowed to do that?

Probably because they own and maintain all the infrastructure aswell just like Translink. Unlike the UK where one company maintains all the infrastructure and and an operator is just an operator.

The RPSI have to get permission from Translink and IR to run any and all trains on the main line even just testing kettles from time to time.

goingnowhere · 28-07-2015 9:24am

Thedarkb wrote: »

I know this is an old thread but the RPSI have said that if there's a fatality involving one of their trains, irish rail could cut off their access to the mainline. How would irish rail, as a seperate operator, be allowed to do that?

Irish Rail and Translink actually run the trains, RPSI have no licence or certification to run their own trains on the mainline. So Irish Rail or Translink can walk away from the RPSI at any time.

Legally there is nothing stopping the RPSI actually running their own trains under EU rules, but that would require a mountain of paperwork and insurance.

Losty Dublin · 28-07-2015 10:27am

Your comment is rather misleading. The RPSI are a recognised train operator by the RSC and have been for a few years now.

All rolling stock and haulage operated by the RPSI are permitted to run on the mainline under their SMS documents and with approval of the RSC. Track access for the RPSI is available subject to capacity and approval but to date this has never been an issue. The society pays for the track access and are there on merit and yes, they are fully insured to operate on the main line.

What Irish Rail do is that critical to operations are that they supply the staff drive/guard and oversee the operations on the day. This is more down to safety and the fact that the society aren't in a position to supply competent train crews. That said, the staff on board are under the auspices of the RPSI on the day and operate within their SMS and banner.

What you are correct in saying is that the RPSI are dependent on the cooperation of Irish Rail and Translink. Long may it continue

goingnowhere wrote: »

Irish Rail and Translink actually run the trains, RPSI have no licence or certification to run their own trains on the mainline. So Irish Rail or Translink can walk away from the RPSI at any time.

Legally there is nothing stopping the RPSI actually running their own trains under EU rules, but that would require a mountain of paperwork and insurance.

cml387 · 28-07-2015 11:12am

The RPSI are right to be very careful. Possibly they had this incident in mind from last March.

Thedarkb · 28-07-2015 1:48pm

cml387 wrote: »

The RPSI are right to be very careful. Possibly they had this incident in mind from last March.

That incident is very different from someone walking in front of a kettle. I was told this by one of the members of staff while shooting the Emerald isle explorer in kilkenny as well as reading it on IRN. Surely you can't ban steam operation because of a few idiots who think it's ok to stand on live lines.

Losty Dublin · 28-07-2015 2:00pm

Thedarkb wrote: »

That incident is very different from someone walking in front of a kettle. I was told this by one of the members of staff while shooting the Emerald isle explorer in kilkenny as well as reading it on IRN. Surely you can't ban steam operation because of a few idiots who think it's ok to stand on live lines.

It's up to the operator to neutralise safety risks as much as possible. In the case of RPSI operations this means placing stewards on platforms to help prevent trackside incursions. If it continues to happen then things would have to be addressed.

Thedarkb · 28-07-2015 2:10pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It's up to the operator to neutralise safety risks as much as possible. In the case of RPSI operations this means placing stewards on platforms to help prevent trackside incursions. If it continues to happen then things would have to be addressed.

Are there stewards on all platforms at all times in case someone decides to stand in front of a 22000?

flyingsnail · 28-07-2015 2:31pm

That would be either trespass or suicide, not something that is reserved for the arrival of a steam train.

Losty Dublin · 28-07-2015 2:40pm

Thedarkb wrote: »

Are there stewards on all platforms at all times in case someone decides to stand in front of a 22000?

That's Irish Rails problem to deal with and not that of the RPSI.

Thedarkb · 28-07-2015 3:32pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

That's Irish Rails problem to deal with and not that of the RPSI.

Line incursions shouldn't be the responsibility of the operator

Fred Swanson · 28-07-2015 3:38pm

This post has been deleted.

Thedarkb · 28-07-2015 3:54pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That, while trespassing, is pretty harmless as long as no damage is done(In my opinion, it's still illeagle and will land you a fine)

Losty Dublin · 28-07-2015 3:56pm

Thedarkb wrote: »

Line incursions shouldn't be the responsibility of the operator

It's the responsibiliy of both the operator and the infrastructure owners. It's up to an operator to take reasonable steps when operating trains and for the owners to ensure that their system is secure.

The nature of an RPSI trip brings out sightseers and hangers on that a service train doesn't so extra care is required. There are extra hands on board to deal with this but it is something the society bears in mind, as would similar set ups around Europe

That said, it is an offence to trespass on a railway so personal responsibility must be considered as well.

Thedarkb · 28-07-2015 3:58pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It's the responsibiliy of both the operator and the infrastructure owners. It's up to an operator to take reasonable steps when operating trains and for the owners to ensure that their system is secure.

The nature of an RPSI trip brings out sightseers and hangers on that a service train doesn't so extra care is required. There are extra hands on board to deal with this but it is something the society bears in mind, as would similar set ups around Europe

That said, it is an offence to trespass on a railway so personal responsibility must be considered as well.

The sightseers should be responsible for themselves, the only people the RPSI should be responsible for are it's passengers and volounteers

Losty Dublin · 28-07-2015 4:14pm

Thedarkb wrote: »

The sightseers should be responsible for themselves, the only people the RPSI should be responsible for are it's passengers and volounteers

Should be, yeah perhaps. In the real world it doesn't actually work your way.

The society must reasonably prepare to deal with the risks that they bring to the railway, including that to sightseers at stations en route.

Thedarkb · 28-07-2015 6:16pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Should be, yeah perhaps. In the real world it doesn't actually work your way.

The society must reasonably prepare to deal with the risks that they bring to the railway, including that to sightseers at stations en route.

I fail to see how a train hauled with a steam locomotive is any more dangerous than a standard freight train(brake force considered), the only danger to the sightseers is themselves.

end of the road · 28-07-2015 7:55pm

Thedarkb wrote: »

I fail to see how a train hauled with a steam locomotive is any more dangerous than a standard freight train(brake force considered), the only danger to the sightseers is themselves.

because in these modern times one is responsible for everyone else apart from themselves

Losty Dublin · 28-07-2015 8:28pm

Thedarkb wrote: »

I fail to see how a train hauled with a steam locomotive is any more dangerous than a standard freight train(brake force considered), the only danger to the sightseers is themselves.

At this stage I don't really know what your point is here.

Thedarkb · 28-07-2015 9:01pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

At this stage I don't really know what your point is here.

the RPSI shouldn't be considered any more a hazard to public safety than irish rail, it's already been established that irish rail can't really just cut off their access so thread over.

Peregrinus · 29-07-2015 3:20am

The question of whether spectators should experience an irrational attraction to steam trains is not relevant. The fact is that they do, and the operators of steam trains should foresee that this will happen and should factor it into the planning of their operations. Which, it seems, the RPSI does.

It may well be that if there is an accident it will be the spectator's fault for being a bloody idiot. But the object of a safety regime is not to ensure that the only accidents which occur are the fault of members of the public; it is to ensure, so far as possible, that accidents don't occur. Hence, planning has to cater for the foreseeable stupidity of members of the public.

This isn't rocket science. It's basic common sense. And it's by no means confined to "these modern times".

Captain Chaos · 09-08-2015 5:51pm

Just spotted No4 in action, passed through Killester with 7 Cravens + GSV for Connolly. Good to see her back down here again.

Losty Dublin · 10-08-2015 8:38am

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Just spotted No4 in action, passed through Killester with 7 Cravens + GSV for Connolly. Good to see her back down here again.

She is undoubtedly the best performer of all of the society's engines. Loads of grunt, route accessibility that's sky high and crucially, she is healthy and in working order and with a high traffic availability. Next year will be extremely interesting considering the motive power choices that should be at hand.

postitnote · 10-08-2015 9:08am

Of all the steam engines available to the RPSI or soon to be available, what are the relative merits of each one in terms of reliablility, size and top speed etc?

flyingsnail · 10-08-2015 10:08am

postitnote wrote: »

Of all the steam engines available to the RPSI or soon to be available, what are the relative merits of each one in terms of reliablility, size and top speed etc?

No: 4
4 is the most modern steam engine having been built in 1947. It has good pulling power and can easily haul 9 coach trains on the Santa trips. Has a relatively low axle weight and good route availability. Has the added bonus of being a tank so it does not need to be turned at the end of a journey.

No: 461
Is probably the slowest of the lot being a goods engine but has a low axle weight and great route availability (I don't think there is anywhere it can't go). It will pull pretty much whatever you put behind it just won't do it fast.

No:85
Mainline express passenger engine. Has a higher axle weight and thus some restrictions on where it can go.

No:171
I don't have any direct experience with this loco but it was built as an express passenger loco, I believe it is slightly lighter than 85 but I don't know what the route availability is like.

Captain Chaos · 10-08-2015 10:28am

Can any of them get up to the Cravens 75mph limit, I suspect No.85 can get close enough. Is there a special limit overall for steam haulage with todays H&S rules, or can they run up to line speed if the stock allows for it.

Losty Dublin · 10-08-2015 10:30am

postitnote wrote: »

Of all the steam engines available to the RPSI or soon to be available, what are the relative merits of each one in terms of reliablility, size and top speed etc?

171, 85 and 131 were all built as fast express engines for the GNR's Dublin-Belfast services. Due to weight constraints on the Boyne Viaduct these engines were slightly smaller than what was ideally required and thus were limited to a 4-4-0 wheel arrangement. As the weight of the engine rests on less wheels, their axle loading are a little heavier which limits their availability in service, 85 especially so.

In theory they are capable of fast speeds but ideally hauling slightly lighter trains; anecdotes speak of all three engines reaching speeds of over 90MPH when in service. Given that 85 is only recently back in traffic and 171 and 131 are still to return, it's too early to say how reliable they will be.

4 was one of a fleet of engines built for the NCC in 1947. As it is newer than the GNR engines it is more powerful yet lighter and more capable and a little more economic to run as well. When in service they were nicknamed Jeeps because they could do anywhere and do any duty asked of same. For the RPSI it has been sent all over the country. In service she is able for over 70MPH with a full load. She is very reliable and has returned to traffic quickly after her last stand down due to her good health.

461 is a powerful engine which was built for the DSER to work freight and stopping passenger trains. Given the nature of freight trains and the lines it was worked on, it has a better ability to haul heavier trains but at lower speeds to those previously mentioned. She can get over 60MPH but for comfort you are looking at about 40MPH which has limited her to shorter trips and unsuitable for busy mainline traffic or long distance trips. She is a bit temperamental (Especially when in reverse gear.) but has settled down after a shaky start, and dare I say it, she looks the part.

186 is a small yet plucky 0-6-0 engine. Like 461 she was built to haul freight and comes with a lower in service speed of about 50MPH, though she can do far more than that when asked. Due to her smaller size she worked mainly on the Belfast excursions which are slightly lighter and generally slower lines than the Dublin trains. Given that the other 5 engines are far more powerful, younger and faster than her you can forget about seeing her in traffic for a long time.

postitnote · 10-08-2015 10:49am

Thanks both for your informative responses.

It hadn't occurred to me the before the benefits of a Tank engine until I had a wee read up on them.

So ideally, you would want to be using 85 or 171 on Enterprise duties for their speed and ability to turn them at each end and No 4 for everything else?

I grew up near the Belfast-Bangor railway line and always loved the thundering past of the steam specials on the old jointed track.
I'd always miss the train on the way to Bangor, but would go up and sit on a farmer's crossing gate and wait for what seemed hours for it to return.

Certainly 171 was a visitor to the line as I found a double exposed photograph just yesterday in the folks attic from 1992 or 93 i'd guess.

GM228 · 10-08-2015 11:06am

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Can any of them get up to the Cravens 75mph limit, I suspect No.85 can get close enough. Is there a special limit overall for steam haulage with todays H&S rules, or can they run up to line speed if the stock allows for it.

All steam engines are limited to a max 60mph.

GM228

flyingsnail · 10-08-2015 11:26am

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Can any of them get up to the Cravens 75mph limit, I suspect No.85 can get close enough. Is there a special limit overall for steam haulage with todays H&S rules, or can they run up to line speed if the stock allows for it.

Steam is limited to 60 but the cravens have retained 75 for working with diesel.

flyingsnail · 10-08-2015 11:26am

postitnote wrote: »

Thanks both for your informative responses.

It hadn't occurred to me the before the benefits of a Tank engine until I had a wee read up on them.

So ideally, you would want to be using 85 or 171 on Enterprise duties for their speed and ability to turn them at each end and No 4 for everything else?

I grew up near the Belfast-Bangor railway line and always loved the thundering past of the steam specials on the old jointed track.
I'd always miss the train on the way to Bangor, but would go up and sit on a farmer's crossing gate and wait for what seemed hours for it to return.

Certainly 171 was a visitor to the line as I found a double exposed photograph just yesterday in the folks attic from 1992 or 93 i'd guess.

Ideally you would run 85,461,171 to places where they can turn and there is a couple of those, there are turntables at Connolly, Inchicore, Mullingar and Rosslare (there are other turntables on the network but they are not serviceable) along with triangles that you can turn on at Limerick Junction and Kilkenny. They can run backwards but it is much slower.

end of the road · 10-08-2015 11:47am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

171, 85 and 131 were all built as fast express engines for the GNR's Dublin-Belfast services. Due to weight constraints on the Boyne Viaduct these engines were slightly smaller than what was ideally required and thus were limited to a 4-4-0 wheel arrangement. As the weight of the engine rests on less wheels, their axle loading are a little heavier which limits their availability in service, 85 especially so.

In theory they are capable of fast speeds but ideally hauling slightly lighter trains; anecdotes speak of all three engines reaching speeds of over 90MPH when in service. Given that 85 is only recently back in traffic and 171 and 131 are still to return, it's too early to say how reliable they will be.

4 was one of a fleet of engines built for the NCC in 1947. As it is newer than the GNR engines it is more powerful yet lighter and more capable and a little more economic to run as well. When in service they were nicknamed Jeeps because they could do anywhere and do any duty asked of same. For the RPSI it has been sent all over the country. In service she is able for over 70MPH with a full load. She is very reliable and has returned to traffic quickly after her last stand down due to her good health.

461 is a powerful engine which was built for the DSER to work freight and stopping passenger trains. Given the nature of freight trains and the lines it was worked on, it has a better ability to haul heavier trains but at lower speeds to those previously mentioned. She can get over 60MPH but for comfort you are looking at about 40MPH which has limited her to shorter trips and unsuitable for busy mainline traffic or long distance trips. She is a bit temperamental (Especially when in reverse gear.) but has settled down after a shaky start, and dare I say it, she looks the part.

186 is a small yet plucky 0-6-0 engine. Like 461 she was built to haul freight and comes with a lower in service speed of about 50MPH, though she can do far more than that when asked. Due to her smaller size she worked mainly on the Belfast excursions which are slightly lighter and generally slower lines than the Dublin trains. Given that the other 5 engines are far more powerful, younger and faster than her you can forget about seeing her in traffic for a long time.

so she may return one day? just a case of not being needed in traffic at the moment and will take a lot longer to overhall?

flyingsnail · 10-08-2015 12:25pm

end of the road wrote: »

so she may return one day? just a case of not being needed in traffic at the moment and will take a lot longer to overhall?

AFAIK 186 does need some boiler work but nothing insurmountable, if it was brought back into service now it would be surplus to requirements. More likely you will see it back out as the current crop of locos come to the end of their 10 year.

Losty Dublin · 10-08-2015 12:30pm

end of the road wrote: »

so she may return one day? just a case of not being needed in traffic at the moment and will take a lot longer to overhall?

Given that five engines ahead of here are superior operationally and with fresh boiler certs you are looking at a long lay off for 186. I can't see her in traffic again until close to 2025, when motive power options will be limited as the current fleet come off their tickets.

GM228 · 10-08-2015 12:54pm

flyingsnail wrote: »

Ideally you would run 85,461,171 to places where they can turn and there is a couple of those, there are turntables at Connolly, Inchicore, Mullingar and Rosslare (there are other turntables on the network but they are not serviceable) along with triangles that you can turn on at Limerick Junction and Kilkenny. They can run backwards but it is much slower.

Turntable at Tralee is also serviceable, just currently blocked by 12 stored LY/LP wagons which are currently un-moveable.

Indeed running backwards is slower, tender first is 40mph or bunker first is 50mph.

GM228

GM228 · 10-08-2015 1:00pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Given that five engines ahead of here are superior operationally and with fresh boiler certs you are looking at a long lay off for 186. I can't see her in traffic again until close to 2025, when motive power options will be limited as the current fleet come off their tickets.

From the RPSIs Operations Officer Mervyn Darragh in 2013-

"Unfortunately 186 is not a big, express locomotive and due to her lower top speed it is most unlikely she will reappear on the modern railway where finding train schedules for the locomotive is becoming ever more difficult.”

Also the same reason why 27 and 184 will never steam again.

GM228

savagethegoat · 10-08-2015 4:05pm

Rather than condemn three locos to never steaming again, perhaps a branch line operation should be their future. Three locos overhauled in turn could supply the needs of a Heritage branch line almost indefinitely. It could also use the wooden bodied coaches banned from the mainline.

flyingsnail · 10-08-2015 5:25pm

savagethegoat wrote: »

Rather than condemn three locos to never steaming again, perhaps a branch line operation should be their future. Three locos overhauled in turn could supply the needs of a Heritage branch line almost indefinitely. It could also use the wooden bodied coaches banned from the mainline.

Now all we need is somebody to start a branchline

FYI There are plans to return the Dublin based heritage set to service.

GM228 · 10-08-2015 6:35pm

flyingsnail wrote: »

Now all we need is somebody to start a branchline
FYI There are plans to return the Dublin based heritage set to service.

Indeed but it's going to be a good few years before thr heritage set returns!

GM228

Salmon Leap · 06-09-2015 10:07pm

Just noticed that the Dublin Santa Specials have been re-scheduled Dublin - Greystones this year. I always just assumed that they ran to Maynooth because there would be less congestion on the line. Anyone know why this has changed?

flyingsnail · 06-09-2015 10:31pm

Salmon Leap wrote: »

Just noticed that the Dublin Santa Specials have been re-scheduled Dublin - Greystones this year. I always just assumed that they ran to Maynooth because there would be less congestion on the line. Anyone know why this has changed?

It is because of the ongoing track works at grand canal docks, Trains coming from Maynooth used to arrive into Pearse Station and offload passengers and then proceed to either the running loop or sidings to run around, this also gave the onboard team time to clean the train and for Santa to get ready ect without any passengers on board. This is no longer possible in grand canal because of the works, by going Pearse – Greystones – Pearse the passengers can still be offloaded at Pearse and the train can then do the run around and other jobs at Connolly.

Salmon Leap · 06-09-2015 10:39pm

Thanks for the rapid answer Ã¢ËœÂº So when these works are completed will the trips (2016)revert back to the Maynooth line? Sorry about this, I am not familiar with what is happening at GCD.

flyingsnail · 07-09-2015 9:29am

I don’t know, off the top of my head the running loop will still be there so that may be an option but there will be no run around facilities in the yard. It also depends on how things fit around the new IE timetable.

RPSI

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