Catholic Church: a destructive / constructive force in Ireland's history?

kjkkments

This is a question I have been asking myself for some time now. I cannot really see anything positive to justify its position in irish society. I dont have anything against it I just can't see why it holds the position of respert that it does. It doesn't respect the laws of the land is constantly delays social reform spiritually it doesn't represent any of the people I know and it a constant source of embarrassment to the nation. Besides being a social club of sorts for the elderly can anyone give me a positive unique selling point for the organisation. Its just a question dont get mad.

tommy2bad

kjkkments wrote: »

This is a question I have been asking myself for some time now. I cannot really see anything positive to justify its position in irish society. I dont have anything against it I just can't see why it holds the position of respert that it does. It doesn't respect the laws of the land is constantly delays social reform spiritually it doesn't represent any of the people I know and it a constant source of embarrassment to the nation. Besides being a social club of sorts for the elderly can anyone give me a positive unique selling point for the organisation. Its just a question dont get mad.

I duno, Fianna Fáil give them a good run for that title.

Answering your points one at a time;
Dosn't respect the law of the land. I could go with that, the thing is it would claim to answer to a higher power.
Constantly delays social reform, Well some social reforms, works hard to achieve others, so well go 50/50 on that one.
Spiritually doesn't represent any of the people you know. Not sure what that has to do with anything.
Constant source of embarrassment to the nation, It is? hadn't noticed myself.
Social club for the elderly, good one, not just the elderly though, children too.
The RCC's usp would be 2000 years of tradition and teaching, charitable work and humble service to it's flock.
Look, if you don't get it, you don't get it. Not a lot we can do to help you.
If it the special place that the RCC holds in Ireland that bothers you, it bothers a lot of people. It a historical legacy from the setting up of the state and needs sorting out. Time mostly will undo the damage this special consideration caused.

kjkkments

tommy2bad wrote: »

I duno, Fianna Fáil give them a good run for that title.

Answering your points one at a time;
Dosn't respect the law of the land. I could go with that, the thing is it would claim to answer to a higher power.
Constantly delays social reform, Well some social reforms, works hard to achieve others, so well go 50/50 on that one.
Spiritually doesn't represent any of the people you know. Not sure what that has to do with anything.
Constant source of embarrassment to the nation, It is? hadn't noticed myself.
Social club for the elderly, good one, not just the elderly though, children too.
The RCC's usp would be 2000 years of tradition and teaching, charitable work and humble service to it's flock.
Look, if you don't get it, you don't get it. Not a lot we can do to help you.
If it the special place that the RCC holds in Ireland that bothers you, it bothers a lot of people. It a historical legacy from the setting up of the state and needs sorting out. Time mostly will undo the damage this special consideration caused.

Oh sorry I think you misunderstood my intention. I was not having a go I just dont understand. Like the ff line by the way nicely done I'll open a new thread for that one.just on your last points .Is the church actually 2000 years old I thought the bible was only agreed on in 325ad by Constantine at this stage I would imagine it was pretty segmented and had a few different competing groups . I am not sure how charitable the institution has been since then it seams that it was mostly involved in increasing its own wealth and tends not to give much of it away. Its teaching history is also very dubious and not terribly enlightened granted the state should not have stood back and let it take charge but the church did in no small way abuse their position of responsability. The church has also not been too humble until recently just look at the palaces an landholdings they have only their victims are humble. You have a very good point on the historical legacy of the way the state was set up but it seams to me that the origional founders of the church would not have taken advantace in the same way as the current organisation did.

Manach

An institution by its nature, according to theorists, can be judge on how well it achieves its mission. Given the unique historical timeline and its global impact, the RCC's can be cherry-picked to prove it is nearly the most benign or the worst such institution. My view would be on balance on the positive side of the ledger.
The RCC has fulfilled in Ireland, bringing its central tenants to the populace and has been constant in that for over a Millennia and a half. It has , according to some historians, been one of the key foundations of Western civilisation - of which last time I checked Ireland had a passing familiarity with. When the State either consisted of a colonial structure with the main aim of extracting maximum wealth with maximum venality or a grandiose nationalist regime whose aim of a Celtic republic would be built on the premise of exporting the lower classes, the RCC stepped in and provide much need social structures and education establishments. Historically for the time, the average schools were not outside the standards of the day, and the clergy (from my own experience) provided an unstinting, even-handed and fair pastoral service – such as exemplified by the former bishop of Buenos Aires, Pope Francis.
The RCC has acted as a communal social bound in Ireland, damping the socie-economical tides that had proved so destructive in Europe in the last century and acting as a check on the centralising aspects of the State.
The open and inclusive nature of the Church, has a strong foundation for the future at least by my witnessing both the multi-generational structure and the international aspect of those attending its services.

MrPudding

For me the RCC is evidence that god does not exist. I can't understand how a god, with the particular values and attributes Christians assign to him, could sit by and allow its continued existence.

An argument from incredulity perhaps, but not, I feel, an unreasonable one.

MrP

DEFTLEFTHAND

Many people here received their education because of the Catholic Church, the new State couldn't afford to run an independent system that's where the special relationship developed from, Catholics like Dev were very happy with this arrangement and the church particularly John Charles McQuaid took further interest in state business such as the drawing up of the constitution.

They did much more good on this island than bad, people don't look at things like the early health service for instance. Would you like to be still wearing the peak cap and picking spuds out of a field? Ignorant hayseed parents? No schooling no future 'The Dirty Irish?' The church helped this countries development, they were here when the rest of the world viewed us as being the lowest of the low.

MrPudding

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Many people here received their education because of the Catholic Church, the new State couldn't afford to run an independent system that's where the special relationship developed from, Catholics like Dev were very happy with this arrangement and the church particularly John Charles McQuaid took further interest in state business such as the drawing up of the constitution.

They did much more good on this island than bad, people don't look at things like the early health service for instance. Would you like to be still wearing the peak cap and picking spuds out of a field? Ignorant hayseed parents? No schooling no future 'The Dirty Irish?' The church helped this countries development, they were here when the rest of the world viewed us as being the lowest of the low.

At what cost?

MrP

DEFTLEFTHAND

Well most got on pretty well if you think about it. There's a thing in modern Ireland where young naive liberals blame the CC for everything.

Sure times were hard for everyone back in the day, the world evolves over time. Do you think if you were born into a poor Protestant family in England or a WASP family in the southern States of the USA that things would be any different? Those were the times and Religion often was the only saving grace for folks, the charity work that was done by the Christian Church in the Deep South during the Great Depression was awesome, they kept people alive by providing basic food and clean water.

robp

kjkkments wrote: »

This is a question I have been asking myself for some time now. I cannot really see anything positive to justify its position in irish society. I dont have anything against it I just can't see why it holds the position of respert that it does. It doesn't respect the laws of the land is constantly delays social reform spiritually it doesn't represent any of the people I know and it a constant source of embarrassment to the nation. Besides being a social club of sorts for the elderly can anyone give me a positive unique selling point for the organisation. Its just a question dont get mad.

Your cherry picking. It is easy to look back in hindsight and criticise Catholic education and hospitals but these institution were what created the state. in their absence things would have developed more slowly. The state wasn't in a position to create its own. Generally speaking they had the roots in impoverished 19th cen. Ireland One of the reasons why the the great hunger hit Ireland so badly was that Ireland had extremely weak social institutions following generations of uprisings, class war and persecution. In contrast Britain had very strong institution that would have prevented any calamity on the same scale. The development of these institution by the CC and indeed CoI allowed the country to catch up to some extent. This was inspired by the work of deeply altruistic people like Edmund rice or the earlier of Nano Nagle. They was not driven so to increase church power or influence but by humanitarian concern.

weeda

Whatever the rcc did in the past for the good (?) Of the country has no bearing and gives no excuses for the damage, pain, fear and even death that was allowed to continue by sweeping cruelty and abuse under the carpet.
How can people forget/excuse that?

kjkkments

robp wrote: »

Your cherry picking. It is easy to look back in hindsight and criticise Catholic education and hospitals but these institution were what created the state. in their absence things would have developed more slowly. The state wasn't in a position to create its own. Generally speaking they had the roots in impoverished 19th cen. Ireland One of the reasons why the the great hunger hit Ireland so badly was that Ireland had extremely weak social institutions following generations of uprisings, class war and persecution. In contrast Britain had very strong institution that would have prevented any calamity on the same scale. The development of these institution by the CC and indeed CoI allowed the country to catch up to some extent. This was inspired by the work of deeply altruistic people like Edmund rice or the earlier of Nano Nagle. They was not driven so to increase church power or influence but by humanitarian concern.

I dont accept the cherry picking arguement in this case it seams to be a way to ignore the crimes committed by this organisation. The people created the state not the church if any thing the church hindered the creation or the state with their stance against the "rebels" as they were refered to. I dont remember reading much about church relief for famine victims although I have read about the quakers the british government and even foreign governments offering support . I also seam to remember something about the church selling orphan babies to rich americans at the time not very socially minded .I know this relief was distributed very badly and in some cases not at all but most relief work seams to have been provided by english protestant landlords not the church. The famine was the worst of all tragedies to befall this country and the churches only contribution seams to have been its silence. The church only allowed the society to develop in a way it approved of just look at the list of banned authors, filims and broadcasts from the time. Some of there people were world class thinkers who were forced to leave due to narrow thinking on the churches part.

kjkkments

[quote=
FTLEFTHAND;86187849"]Well most got on pretty well if you think about it. There's a thing in modern Ireland where young naive liberals blame the CC for everything.

Sure times were hard for everyone back in the day, the world evolves over time. Do you think if you were born into a poor Protestant family in England or a WASP family in the southern States of the USA that things would be any different? Those were the times and Religion often was the only saving grace for folks, the charity work that was done by the Christian Church in the Deep South during the Great Depression was awesome, they kept people alive by providing basic food and clean water.[/quote]
I am sure the ones that were brutally beaten would disagree. There might also be a reason young liberals blame the CC for alot but I dont think they are naive the complete opposite in fact. Maybe the naive ones are the ones who refuse to see the church as it is.
I dont think the hard times can be used as an excuce for what went on . The world will evolve thankfully despite any creationist theory's to the contary but I can't blame the RCC for that. I just think the RCC church in Ireland anyway has reached an evolutionary dead end.

tommy2bad

kjkkments wrote: »

I am sure the ones that were brutally beaten would disagree. There might also be a reason young liberals blame the CC for alot but I dont think they are naive the complete opposite in fact. Maybe the naive ones are the ones who refuse to see the church as it is.
I dont think the hard times can be used as an excuce for what went on . The world will evolve thankfully despite any creationist theory's to the contary but I can't blame the RCC for that. I just think the RCC church in Ireland anyway has reached an evolutionary dead end.

I agree with this in as much as it refers to the RCC that we grew up with. Authoritarian, austere and self concerned. This model of state church is over, has been for sometime. I'm not sure it even existed that long tbh, maybe from the early 30's to the mid 60's.
I wonder if the whole empire model that the RCC got caught up in wasn't the real problem. Hard for any institute to relinquish power especially when it assumes a mandate from God Himself. In a lot of ways the saying that the Roman empire never collapsed, it morphed into the church is very true.

mrsoundie

It's only a quick piece but this man, does put it quite brilliantly.

kjkkments

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Many people here received their education because of the Catholic Church, the new State couldn't afford to run an independent system that's where the special relationship developed from, Catholics like Dev were very happy with this arrangement and the church particularly John Charles McQuaid took further interest in state business such as the drawing up of the constitution.

They did much more good on this island than bad, people don't look at things like the early health service for instance. Would you like to be still wearing the peak cap and picking spuds out of a field? Ignorant hayseed parents? No schooling no future 'The Dirty Irish?' The church helped this countries development, they were here when the rest of the world viewed us as being the lowest of the low.

Yeah and a good few beatings aswell the special relationship had little to offer the state or its people but it served the church extremely well the church will inevitably get into bed with the holders of power to further its own ends they were very close to the british when they were in power and likewise in italy and germany during both wars by being close to Dev they were able to enshrine their place in the consititution and make their position law. The church does not care about the moralality of who they form a special relationshio with just that is increases their infulence they will always play both sides.
The dirty irish as you call them were doing their best to keep them selves alive in very harsh conditions the view you have is closer to the view that the british held at the time I seam to remember several european powers sending troops to help liberate us from the british and our exiled leaders on the continent were very well thought of at the courts at that time.
I still believe that the country would be better off without the RCC thankfully its in rapid decline.

kjkkments

mrsoundie wrote: »

It's only a quick piece but this man, does put it quite brilliantly.

Wow that is an incredibly powerful piece of footage such an eloquent man. Thanks for sharing. Was there a rebuttal I would like to hear the other side to keep it balanced but that was an extremely powerful argument.

mrsoundie

kjkkments wrote: »

Wow that is an incredibly powerful piece of footage such an eloquent man. Thanks for sharing. Was there a rebuttal I would like to hear the other side to keep it balanced but that was an extremely powerful argument.

If you go to youtube the whole thing is there, Christopher Hitchens is even better.

I think the analogy of sex and food was quite good.

kjkkments

mrsoundie wrote: »

If you go to youtube the whole thing is there, Christopher Hitchens is even better.

I think the analogy of sex and food was quite good.

Yeah fricking brilliant. I loved the oh you would bring up that burglary you would bring up that manslaughter you never mentioned that I gave my father a birthday present. Must tube it now thanks again btw.

mrsoundie

kjkkments wrote: »

Yeah fricking brilliant. I loved the oh you would bring up that burglary you would bring up that manslaughter you never mentioned that I gave my father a birthday present. Must tube it now thanks again btw.

The way he starts off saying that he is not against any Catholic persons and their beliefs, yet brings the light upon the "management" of the Catholic Church, is the point. The Galilean Carpenter would be refused entrance to the palaces of St Paul's is also worthy of mention and that "He would be so ill at ease in the [Catholic] Church", is the indictment that not only the "management" yet of the high society of the Irish Republic for the last ninety years.

So I do wholly agree with the Catholic Church is the most destructive organisation in Ireland's history.

kjkkments

mrsoundie wrote: »

The way he starts off saying that he is not against any Catholic persons and their beliefs, yet brings the light upon the "management" of the Catholic Church, is the point. The Galilean Carpenter would be refused entrance to the palaces of St Paul's is also worthy of mention and that "He would be so ill at ease in the [Catholic] Church", is the indictment that not only the "management" yet of the high society of the Irish Republic for the last ninety years.

So I do wholly agree with the Catholic Church is the most destructive organisation in Ireland's history.

I made refrence to the origional founder in some of my posts but it seams to have been missed or ignored by the responders which seams quite apt to be honest. Maybe they were busy preparing a pyre for us nieve young liberals ha.

Benny_Cake

Mod note: No issue with discussion of the impact which the Catholic church has had, for good or for bad, on this country. Don't let it become an exercise in Catholic bashing though. Also, there is a list of megathreads on the charter sticky here, bear that in mind if you want to discuss clerical abuse scandals, etc.

Galwayguy35

mrsoundie wrote: »

It's only a quick piece but this man, does put it quite brilliantly.

So has he done a piece on Islam as well?

No I very much doubt he has.

kjkkments

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

So has he done a piece on Islam as well?

No I very much doubt he has.

Not talking about islam it has its own problems and its effects on ireland has been minimal so far. Not really relevant.

kjkkments

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Mod note: No issue with discussion of the impact which the Catholic church has had, for good or for bad, on this country. Don't let it become an exercise in Catholic bashing though. Also, there is a list of megathreads on the charter sticky here, bear that in mind if you want to discuss clerical abuse scandals, etc.

Dont want it to be a bashing exercise just a discusion.

robp

kjkkments wrote: »

I dont accept the cherry picking arguement in this case it seams to be a way to ignore the crimes committed by this organisation. The people created the state not the church if any thing the church hindered the creation or the state with their stance against the "rebels" as they were refered to. I dont remember reading much about church relief for famine victims although I have read about the quakers the british government and even foreign governments offering support . I also seam to remember something about the church selling orphan babies to rich americans at the time not very socially minded .I know this relief was distributed very badly and in some cases not at all but most relief work seams to have been provided by english protestant landlords not the church. The famine was the worst of all tragedies to befall this country and the churches only contribution seams to have been its silence. The church only allowed the society to develop in a way it approved of just look at the list of banned authors, filims and broadcasts from the time. Some of there people were world class thinkers who were forced to leave due to narrow thinking on the churches part.

You need to take closer analysis and open your mind. Regarding the civil war. This was a disastrous event in Irish history which caused more suffering in the long run then the War of Independence. The church has generally pushed for peaceful resolution throughout history and it was entirely reasonable that they took a stand against the Civil War.

Could you give me a link to how the church sold orphan babies in the 1840s?

As I said 1840s Ireland had few institutions including church institutions. It was structurally weak in the 1840s. It is only in the post famine period do you see the rise of a powerful church. The church would not have had the resource of the Biritsh Gov. British intervention only occurred late in the crisis. Yet according to UCC's Multitext project in Irish history the Catholic Church did play role in relief efforts.

5. The involvement of the Catholic Church
The churches played an important part in the distribution of government and private relief. Local priests and ministers were widely praised for their role in helping the poor. Some churches also established their own relief committees to raise funds. The two Catholic bishops who were particularly involved were Archbishop Murray of Dublin and Archbishop MacHale of Tuam. Catholic aid continued beyond 1847, when many other forms of private relief had dried up. The amount collected is hard to quantify but it was probably more than £400,000. Most of this was distributed by local priests in the distressed areas. This avoided much of the expense and delay that marked Government relief.

Because of its overseas network, the Irish Catholic church was able to attract money. Some of the largest amounts were raised by the Catholic parishes in Britain and the United States. The Tablet, the leading English Catholic newspaper, offered to act as a channel for English Catholics to send money to Ireland. By March 1847 Bishop Fitzpatrick in Boston had raised almost $20,000, mostly from local Catholics, though it was meant for distribution to all creeds in Ireland. Apart from donations from outside Ireland, priests in Ireland donated money for the famine poor. James Maher, the rector of the Irish College in Rome, sold his horse and gig for this purpose. The staff and students of Maynooth college made a donation of over £200.

A committee for the Irish poor was established in Rome on 13 January 1847. Pope Pius IX donated 1000 Roman crowns from his own pocket. In addition to personal financial assistance, he also offered spiritual and practical support. In March 1847, he took the unprecedented step of issuing a papal encyclical to the international Catholic com-munity, appealing for support for the victims of the Famine. As a result, large sums of money were raised by Catholic congregations: the Vincent de Paul Society in France raised £5,000; the diocese of Strasbourg collected 23,365 francs; two priests in Caracas in Venezuela contributed £177; Father Fahy in Argentina sent over £600; a priest in Grahamstown in South Africa sent £70; and the Catholic community in Sydney in New South Wales sent £1,500. Despite the unprecedented intervention by Pope Pius IX, the Irish bishops failed to thank him for his donation or for the encyclical letter until forced to do so by Dr Paul Cullen. Cardinal Fransoni, an adviser to the Pope, was also angry because of the laziness of the Irish bishops in fund raising for the poor, though he had given them official permission to do whatever was needed to be done. The thanklessness of the Irish bishops and their wrangling with one another lost them further vital support in Rome. The Pope’s concern and support for Ireland came to an abrupt end in 1848 when the revolutionary struggle in Italy forced him to flee Rome. Nevertheless, his brief interest had a major effect in urging the international Catholic community to support relief in Ireland. But things could be difficult. As the letter from the Bishop of Augsburg demonstrates, transferring money to Ireland could be complicated.

link

See it is best to read around a subject before making judgements.

robp

weeda wrote: »

Whatever the rcc did in the past for the good (?) Of the country has no bearing and gives no excuses for the damage, pain, fear and even death that was allowed to continue by sweeping cruelty and abuse under the carpet.
How can people forget/excuse that?

Why do you think people are forgetting or forgiving that? No one is! I would make the analogy of Britain. Britain's colonialism did horrendous destruction to Ireland and many nations. Yet by and large Britain is and was not a force for bad in the world.

kjkkments

robp wrote: »

Why do you think people are forgetting or forgiving that? No one is! I would make the analogy of Britain. Britain's colonialism did horrendous destruction to Ireland and many nations. Yet by and large Britain is and was not a force for bad in the world.

I think most of world would disagree with you on that one. They tended to leave places in much worse condition than they found them. Silly comment.

robp

kjkkments wrote: »

I think most of world would disagree with you on that one. They tended to leave places in much worse condition than they found them. Silly comment.

Maybe so but many great things came out Britain in this time. Great thinkers, huge advances in science, law and human rights. This is what I am referring too. It is easy to take this for granted on a diet of Irish nationalism, and I say this as a Republican myself.

I am glad you have a got a chance to see that the Catholic church did in fact contribute to famine relief efforts. If you read the link you will see that they may have even given more then the Quakers. Of course as a small group the Quakers deserve immense credit but praise is also due to all who made an effort to end the death that stalked the land in that dark period such as the Irish Catholic church and the Vatican.

Mrs OBumble

kjkkments wrote: »

I think most of world would disagree with you on that one. They tended to leave places in much worse condition than they found them. Silly comment.

I can't speak for other countries, but in New Zealand the Brits built introduced laws to control the lawless migrants who had started drifting in after the country was discovered. And they built towns, roads, schools, hospitals, churches, etc. I see all that as a lot better than how the country was before they arrived.

Galwayguy35

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I can't speak for other countries, but in New Zealand the Brits built introduced laws to control the lawless migrants who had started drifting in after the country was discovered. And they built towns, roads, schools, hospitals, churches, etc. I see all that as a lot better than how the country was before they arrived.

The Brits were the migrants, the country belonged to the Maori who like other native peoples ofton got a bullet in the head by their oppressors.

Galwayguy35

kjkkments wrote: »

Not talking about islam it has its own problems and its effects on ireland has been minimal so far. Not really relevant.

Bit ironic then seeing as we are talking about an English guy living in Britain going on about the Catholic Church which has a tiny following over there.

Not really relevant to him?

Icepick

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

So has he done a piece on Islam as well?

No I very much doubt he has.

ah, the desperate they are as bad as us argument

recedite

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Many people here received their education because of the Catholic Church, the new State couldn't afford to run an independent system that's where the special relationship developed from, Catholics like Dev were very happy with this arrangement and the church particularly John Charles McQuaid took further interest in state business such as the drawing up of the constitution.

RCC opposed and thwarted British attempts (by a guy called Stanley) to open free primary schools which would have mixed kids of different religions. They wanted full control of what was being taught. C of I were also in agreement. So between them, they divided up the turf, and thwarted Stanley's plan.
And later with the foundation of the new state, McQuaid and Dev made sure that all state money for schools was channeled through the school patron (ie the Bishops)

Dev even sent the draft Irish Constitution to the Vatican for approval. A somewhat puzzled Vatican replied that they "noted" it, but it was not really their business to comment.

Galwayguy35

Icepick wrote: »

ah, the desperate they are as bad as us argument

Don't try to put words in my mouth, the point I was making was it's seen as being cool these days to bash Catholics verbally.

robp

recedite wrote: »

RCC opposed and thwarted British attempts (by a guy called Stanley) to open free primary schools which would have mixed kids of different religions. They wanted full control of what was being taught. C of I were also in agreement. So between them, they divided up the turf, and thwarted Stanley's plan.
And later with the foundation of the new state, McQuaid and Dev made sure that all state money for schools was channeled through the school patron (ie the Bishops)

Dev even sent the draft Irish Constitution to the Vatican for approval. A somewhat puzzled Vatican replied that they "noted" it, but it was not really their business to comment.

Yet Dev still established a state that was officially secular, at least in principle. He also still ensured that CoI were not marginalised. There are countless examples of the old elites being severally marginalised in post colony states. There is a lot of revisionism flying around about Dev since the 1960s. He could turn anti-clerical when it suited him. Like his attacks on priests who critiqued post-War of Independence IRA activity.

Manach

Re Constitution - my understanding from reading various legal articles on it, was that there was a variety of sources of it including the knowledgeable Catholic social justice jurisprudence, that of the US constitution and of the Weinmar Civil law tradition. The result was a document that was hailed as one of the leading examples of the art in the day, and served as the basis of the Indian constitution.

Cossax

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Bit ironic then seeing as we are talking about an English guy living in Britain going on about the Catholic Church which has a tiny following over there.

Not really relevant to him?

8% of the population and the highest total mass attendance of any Christian denomination. And he was debating a Catholic. I'm confused as to what your exact issue is with the debate?

recedite

robp wrote: »

Yet Dev still established a state that was officially secular, at least in principle. He also still ensured that CoI were not marginalised.

The Constitution wasn't too bad for the 1930's. At least he steered us clear of fascism.

Mrs OBumble

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

The Brits were the migrants, the country belonged to the Maori who like other native peoples ofton got a bullet in the head by their oppressors.

Agreed. But before the British crown arrived, then Maori were plagued with rogue migrants (whalers etc) who were attracted to the place because of the lack of laws. Maori social systems of the time had no ways to dealing with their behaviour. So though the Brits did lots of bad stuff, there was good stuff too. And overall IMHO the country is better for their having been there.


Much like the RCC in Ireland - a force for good and for bad all at once.

zachaus

The amateur historical revisionism on this thread is unreal.

recedite

What is revisionism? Is it when you learn something that they didn't teach you in your church controlled school?

Its hard to know how much Dev agreed with Archbishop McQuaids "interference" or whether he was wary of being toppled if he lost church support.

Noel Browne received a belt of the crozier after he defied the church hierarchy, and his political career never recovered. He had introduced mass mobile x-rays for TB and antibiotics, thereby saving countless lives.
But then he tried to introduce free healthcare for pregnant women and children, including unmarried mothers. His other big mistake was attending the funeral of Irelands first President, Douglas Hyde. It was in a protestant church, and Browne was the only govt. minister to defy the boycott by going inside.
After he was got rid of, the RCC continued operating the Magdalene laundries and orphanages that we keep hearing about, and continued collecting money from the State towards "the running costs".

MrPudding

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Bit ironic then seeing as we are talking about an English guy living in Britain going on about the Catholic Church which has a tiny following over there.

Not really relevant to him?

Ironic? FFS. Do you understand his a debate works? Be was invited, by the organisers, to debate the question that the organisers posed. That question, I this particular occasion was something like "has the RCC been a force for good in the world." If I recall correctly, all four panelists were from the UK, it was a UK debate, organised by a UK institution. Not quite sure what the size of the catholic population in the UK has with the validity of the opinion of someone I a debate...

MrP

Geomy

MrPudding wrote: »

Ironic? FFS. Do you understand his a debate works? Be was invited, by the organisers, to debate the question that the organisers posed. That question, I this particular occasion was something like "has the RCC been a force for good in the world." If I recall correctly, all four panelists were from the UK, it was a UK debate, organised by a UK institution. Not quite sure what the size of the catholic population in the UK has with the validity of the opinion of someone I a debate...

MrP

There are more Catholics in the UK than there are in Ireland, and the English Catholics are supposedly more devout.

Geomy

The Catholic church killed more people than any satanic cult or Church of Satan. ...

Now there's one for the caths...

tommy2bad

Geomy wrote: »

The Catholic church killed more people than any satanic cult or Church of Satan. ...

Now there's one for the caths...

Only to save their immortal souls, Geomy! The few the satanist killed are dead forever, lost to God and damned to hell

I would imagine that any organization that held as much power as the RCC has done would have behaved exactly the same way, some good, a lot of bad. It's a problem with institution not just churches, the fact that churches are supposed to reject this sort of behavior is what galls people most.

lmaopml

I'd just like to say that I think there are some bad Catholics, but I don't believe that the Catholic Church is a force for evil in the world, we just get to hear a lot of the bad things and not so much about the good things - I think it's impossibly beautiful and so do many others.

I am passionately Catholic and loving it -

zachaus

Geomy wrote: »

The Catholic church killed more people than any satanic cult or Church of Satan. ...

Now there's one for the caths...

How many people were killed in just wars since 0AD?

How many people were killed under 20th century regimes?

I can tell you the answer and you might be surprised.

zachaus

recedite wrote: »

What is revisionism? Is it when you learn something that they didn't teach you in your church controlled school?

Its hard to know how much Dev agreed with Archbishop McQuaids "interference" or whether he was wary of being toppled if he lost church support.

Noel Browne received a belt of the crozier after he defied the church hierarchy, and his political career never recovered. He had introduced mass mobile x-rays for TB and antibiotics, thereby saving countless lives.
But then he tried to introduce free healthcare for pregnant women and children, including unmarried mothers. His other big mistake was attending the funeral of Irelands first President, Douglas Hyde. It was in a protestant church, and Browne was the only govt. minister to defy the boycott by going inside.
After he was got rid of, the RCC continued operating the Magdalene laundries and orphanages that we keep hearing about, and continued collecting money from the State towards "the running costs".

Of course it's revisionism. Particularly when the revisionists (a title that is far too grand for someone who's not an expert in history) rehash old wives tales and ignore the greatest achievements of men like McQuaid et al.

It's a bit like banging on about Buzz Aldrin's drinking habits and ignoring his other achievements. Sure, it gets a mention in his obituary but the moonwalk gets centre stage.

Rigourous historical analysis of the Catholic Church in Ireland in the 20th century is not your forte. Your meagre faculties are clouded by bigotry and hatred.

Galwayguy35

Geomy wrote: »

The Catholic church killed more people than any satanic cult or Church of Satan. ...

Now there's one for the caths...

Many people were killed here in Ireland just for being Catholic, there was a bounty for cutting a priests head off.

Many religious wars were fought on all sides, but that wouldn't suit your arguement now would it?

tommy2bad

lmaopml wrote: »

I'd just like to say that I think there are some bad Catholics, but I don't believe that the Catholic Church is a force for evil in the world, we just get to hear a lot of the bad things and not so much about the good things - I think it's impossibly beautiful and so do many others.

I am passionately Catholic and loving it -

Do you mean the institute of the RCC or the faith?
I think theirs a difference that isn't apparent to those who attribute the sins of the institute to the actual faith. Of course the opisite is also true the defenders of the faith sometimes end up defending the indefensible.

lmaopml

tommy2bad wrote: »

Do you mean the institute of the RCC or the faith?
I think theirs a difference that isn't apparent to those who attribute the sins of the institute to the actual faith. Of course the opisite is also true the defenders of the faith sometimes end up defending the indefensible.

I believe Tommy that the Church is full of sinners, as it should be and saints too.....and is a pilgrim Church throughout the ages, and we only see a tiny aspect - I speak of the faith that is contained in this body of believers throughout the ages, I think it's something very special. I think, for me I believe the presence of Christ is always steering the ship - Emmanuel, 'God with us' -

A very telling Parable about the 'Kingdom' is the parable of the 'Wheat and the Tares', and what we can expect, but also the great promise. As Catholics we would believe that the 'Kingdom' is not a future event, but a very real and present thing.

Sorry if that's not very clear, I'm trying to control two unruly and bored little boys here as well as work..lol..