Microsoft should just bring out Windows 9.

uncle_sam_ie

Windows 8 has failed big time. I don't know why MS don't just accept it and move on to Windows 9. On the forums and from people I talked to it's all negative e.g, "OS: Yes, and GOD NO, please not Windows 8"
I have had Windows 8 with start8 from day one and have no problems with it and I do feel it's better. But god, the negativity toward Win 8. I just can't see MS turning this around with 8.1 coming out soon.

Iomega Man

Or better still Windows X...

Overheal

How many people complaining about windows 8 have actually used it, or own it? By all accounts, the sales figure is relatively low for a windows launch yet the outcry seems to outstrip that.

I've personally found that confusion about the tile interface is only part of it, the majority of the complaints I seem to get revolve around trackpad gestures on laptops, or people who cant operate a mouse in general.

I also find that when people approach me intending to purchase a Windows 7 machine, its because they've been scared of by negative feedback not personal experience.

The whole "designed for touch" argument, has become less and less relevant. 10 months since its launch, touchscreen laptops can be purchased for as low as $300. Then again, I use 8 primarily on a desktop without touch. Dualscreen at that.

The fact is, as Torqay's article pointed out in another thread, most users fake their way through being able to use technology and any change - however minor (Vista's and then 7's start menu for instance) are met with negativity and apprehension, in spite of the fact that they improve the interface. The problem being they don't understand how to interpret what the machine is doing and they panic. Even when showing some customers slowly and clearly what Im doing it takes them several attempts at explanation to understand what the Start key on their keyboard actually does. Now, compound that with the number of changes that 8 introduced, and you have a lot of terrified would-be computer users out there.

By no means am I saying 8 is perfection incarnate, far from it, but 8 was a necessary step in keeping windows in step with industry trends. Don't believe me? Buy a Windows 7 tablet. The only thing Windows should probably apologize for is completely nuking the start popup menu - the more I think about it, keeping the popup and placing a link on the popup into the tile interface would have been an ideal solution.

yoyo

Overheal wrote: »

How many people complaining about windows 8 have actually used it, or own it? By all accounts, the sales figure is relatively low for a windows launch yet the outcry seems to outstrip that.

I've personally found that confusion about the tile interface is only part of it, the majority of the complaints I seem to get revolve around trackpad gestures on laptops, or people who cant operate a mouse in general.

I also find that when people approach me intending to purchase a Windows 7 machine, its because they've been scared of by negative feedback not personal experience.

The whole "designed for touch" argument, has become less and less relevant. 10 months since its launch, touchscreen laptops can be purchased for as low as $300. Then again, I use 8 primarily on a desktop without touch. Dualscreen at that.

The fact is, as Torqay's article pointed out in another thread, most users fake their way through being able to use technology and any change - however minor (Vista's and then 7's start menu for instance) are met with negativity and apprehension, in spite of the fact that they improve the interface. The problem being they don't understand how to interpret what the machine is doing and they panic. Even when showing some customers slowly and clearly what Im doing it takes them several attempts at explanation to understand what the Start key on their keyboard actually does. Now, compound that with the number of changes that 8 introduced, and you have a lot of terrified would-be computer users out there.

By no means am I saying 8 is perfection incarnate, far from it, but 8 was a necessary step in keeping windows in step with industry trends. Don't believe me? Buy a Windows 7 tablet. The only thing Windows should probably apologize for is completely nuking the start popup menu - the more I think about it, keeping the popup and placing a link on the popup into the tile interface would have been an ideal solution.

The most stupid thing with Windows 8 is having to right click in the start menu and choose "all apps" to view all installed items (not really that neccesary as new stuff that gets installed automatically pins to the start, but annoying none the less). Windows 8.1 solves this problem by providing a nav arrow. Really the new start menu is as efficient if not more so compared to the classic one. No longer do you have to expand multiple folders just to launch the program.
I'm actually upgrading my Dad's work computer from 7 to 8 and Office 07 to 13 due to the Skydrive integration. For people who don't understand dropbox and the likes having cloud storage so tightly integrated in the OS is a great idea...

Nick

ZENER

If you really want disaster try Ubuntu's Unity Desktop . . . now there's a real disaster ! Queue fire-breathing Linux advocates descending upon me all guns blazing . . . seriously though it's crap !! You don't have a Programs group at all - you have to remember the name and search for it. Give me Mandriva or Mint any day . . .

As a Mac user I've become used to an intuitive desktop and OS that stays out of my way when working. I do, however, have to use Windows OS in my business and college work. In my business we purchased some kit that came with Windows 8 installed which gave us constant problems - the gestures made working the kit next to suicide inducing. We've asked the manufacturer to install Windows 7 which they've agreed to do thankfully.

So why did Ballmer quit or get pushed out then ?

Ken

GreenWolfe

Unity is OK, once you strip out the Amazon stuff - it's GNOME 3 that's the real disaster.

Unlike Modern UI, the Unity program menu doesn't metaphorically slap you in the face every time you press the Windows key.

clairek6

I have windows 8, hated it at the start but purely because it felt so different. 2 weeks or so later its no different to me and I'm having no problems (although not being able to crop/rotate pictures easily is a bit annoying!)

Peregrine

I never disliked it but after a few months the start screen was cluttered with 4 icons per every program I installed. It was a bit too much so I just installed Classic Shell and that was sorted.

A lot of people are complaining about it for the sake of it.

Capt'n Midnight

Yeah unity should be called dis-unity given the number of former ubuntu users who have moved away from it. ( Mint / debian / xfce etc, unlike windows changing GUI isn't all that difficult )

Tip - if you change the GUI don't expect the old timers to provide free support on the new interface


As for Balmer , Microsoft shares went UP by $26Bn , that's one hell of a "you suck" message

then again his shares have gone up by 3/4's of a Billion dollars , not bad when you consider that half the microsoft share value was wiped during his term

AlmightyCushion

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

not bad when you consider that half the microsoft share value was wiped during his term

While that is true there is a good article here on it. You have to remember that since he took over Microsoft's annual revenue is 4 times what it was when he took over. Plus, a good few products have grown from nothing to the point that they are bringing in billions every year.

I think WP8 and Windows 8 are actually pretty good. In my experience the interface works well on touchscreen devices and laptops with good touchpads that have good gesture control. Although dragging from the top of the screen to the bottom to close apps is a terrible idea, they need an alternative. They could steal borrow from Android or iOS where in the multitasking view you swipe the app away or click the X button to get rid of it.

Forcing the new UI on everyone is a big risk but I think it could pay off in the end. Like Overheal I've heard loads complain about it who haven't even used it. I heard the same with Vista from people who never used it and had no idea why they hated it but they did. I'm gonna put my hands up here I thought Vista was grand (initial driver issues aside) once it was run on some decent hardware and it brought about some much needed changes. Saying that I've told plenty of average users about classic shell and how it makes Windows 8 work like Windows 7 and most have said they'd prefer to just learn the new way (which actually surprised me) and once I showed them a few tips and explained a few things to them they were grand.

I think Microsoft really need to focus on making their consumer products (WP8, W8 PCs, W8 tablets, XBox, etc.) all work together in ways that are cool/interesting/useful. Kinda like how Apple do with things like Apple TV, air drop, air play etc. It could be a great way to get people who have an XBox and a Windows 8 laptop to move from an iPad/iPhone/Android to a WP8 and Surface. Leverage the power of their Windows 8 and Xbox install base. How hard would it be to integrate something like iPad to Apple TV mirroring into Windows 8 and XBox? It would be perfect for people who stream a lot of TV especially through things that aren't as legit or big as Netflix or YouTube.

L'prof

I dunno, I wasn't a fan of Vista because it was so buggy, but 8 just seems to be off like no other version has been before. Granted I've only used it on other peoples machines, but there were too many things that I thought didn't work very well whereas I loved 7. What changes are planned for 8.1?

AlmightyCushion

L'prof wrote: »

I dunno, I wasn't a fan of Vista because it was so buggy, but 8 just seems to be off like no other version has been before. Granted I've only used it on other peoples machines, but there were too many things that I thought didn't work very well whereas I loved 7. What changes are planned for 8.1?

I didn't bother with the new UI at first and just went straight with Start8 but I decided to try it out (I already knew how it worked but just never used the start screen) and spent a bit of time customising the start screen one day and I find it works really well after sticking with it for a bit. The side by side windows are great for things like messaging and music. The Windows Store is slow as shít though.

I'm not using 8.1 but some of the new changes are performance improvements (apparently quite impressive on the Surface RT), more control panel options in the touch based settings "app", you can have two instances of a Metro app open at once, more windows open side by side (up to 4 depending on resolution), the music app focuses more on locally stored music as opposed to the XBox music streaming service, I think there are improvements for people using multiple monitors but I can't remember.

L'prof

Oh I'm sure if I had it on my own machine and was using it every day, I'd get the hang of it, but it's the first time I've used a new Microsoft OS and thought "I don't like what you've done here". Some of the simplest things to do in previous versions just don't translate to 8. I only update OS' when I upgrade machines, but I've genuinely considered sticking with 7 if I do. Maybe 8.1 will be much improved, but maybe as the OP has suggested, I'll be better off waiting for 9.

AlmightyCushion

L'prof wrote: »

Oh I'm sure if I had it on my own machine and was using it every day, I'd get the hang of it, but it's the first time I've used a new Microsoft OS and thought "I don't like what you've done here". Some of the simplest things to do in previous versions just don't translate to 8. I only update OS' when I upgrade machines, but I've genuinely considered sticking with 7 if I do. Maybe 8.1 will be much improved, but maybe as the OP has suggested, I'll be better off waiting for 9.

I'd stick with 8 if you do get a new computer. It has some good improvements and if you use Start8 or classic shell, you can get it to work and act like Windows 7. Best of both worlds.

Torqay

I still can't shake the impression that "Modern UI" is just a perfidious ploy to distract people from other far more serious issues such as the frontal assault on the user's privacy, anonymity and indeed self-determination. With Windows 8 and TPM 2.0 you surrender total control of your computer to Microsoft (and by extension most likely to some assortment of shady alphabet agencies) without the choice to opt in or out. Ending the era of the personal computer as an open platform seems to me the true goal here.

Fysh

As far as the OP's comment goes: Yeah, because serious business strategy should always be determined by the frequently anonymous bitching of strangers on the internet...

There are issues with Windows 8 (forcing a tablet UI on non-tablet devices, the misguided foolishness of Windows 8 RT) but it is, overall, a good OS and the Surface Pro has been very well received from what I've seen. If 8.1 can resolve the UI issues for non-touch users, then it's got a much better change of usefully addressing its complaints than did eg Vista. Out of the door it was a much better and more stable OS than Vista or XP. If you take the time to learn a handful of new keyboard shortcuts, using it on a non-touch system is straightforward and since I mostly don't use the tile interface or Modern UI apps I don't have a problem.

(Yes, there are probably security issues and I am no fan of the signed bootloader gubbins that they insisted on having in UEFI - but then again, if you want a computer over which you have absolute control, you probably want to be rolling your own from source code that you've read and can understand...anything else is a compromise)

Torqay

Well, the kids who grew up with their Facebooks and Steam games may no longer care about such details, but if you're running a company's IT infrastructure on Windows 8, you'd better have your head examined. In the light of recent reports about Microsoft's close ties to the American intelligence community, Windows 8 appears to be open invitation for industrial espionage. Trusted computing me hole.

Overheal

the misguided foolishness of Windows 8 RT

I don't know about this. Misguided in the marketing. The confusion customers get when you try to explain to a computard why iTunes will work on A but not B. But I own both Surfaces. The RT gets used 10x more frequently by me. Why? Its lighter and the battery lasts 3x longer. Also being ARM it is much better about connected-standby for alerts etc and wakes on lid-open. The pro just enters sleep mode, and/or shuts down and doesn't wake on lid-open.

The RT is basically a netbook. Its not designed to replace a PC, but it is designed to let you do 90% of what you do on a PC, away from your chair.

Fysh

Torqay wrote: »

Well, the kids who grew up with their Facebooks and Steam games may no longer care about such details, but if you're running a company's IT infrastructure on Windows 8, you'd better have your head examined. In the light of recent reports about Microsoft's close ties to the American intelligence community, Windows 8 appears to be open invitation for industrial espionage. Trusted computing me hole.

Yeah, because I'm sure that rumoured FBI backdoors into Windows are a totally new thing and not the sort of thing that's been rumoured for decades. (Seriously, I remember reading the same allegations about Windows 95). I guess we can always go to one of the other Friendly Large Corporate OS Vendors who aren't in a similar position with the US Government... like err...umm...

Oh, wait...

Like I said before, if you want that level of confidence in the security of your system you'd need to have full access to the source coupled with in-house expertise in order to read and understand it.

If you're going anywhere near a network you'd need full control over the network gear (ie full source & expertise again) to ensure that the only traffic touching networks outside of your control is fully encrypted with probably current military specification cyphers. And, well, good luck with that

Amirani

I guarantee that if every Window 8 hater spent about 30 minutes learning the new keyboard shortcuts, they'll hate it an awful lot less.

Fysh

Overheal wrote: »

I don't know about this. Misguided in the marketing. The confusion customers get when you try to explain to a computard why iTunes will work on A but not B. But I own both Surfaces. The RT gets used 10x more frequently by me. Why? Its lighter and the battery lasts 3x longer. Also being ARM it is much better about connected-standby for alerts etc and wakes on lid-open. The pro just enters sleep mode, and/or shuts down and doesn't wake on lid-open.

The RT is basically a netbook. Its not designed to replace a PC, but it is designed to let you do 90% of what you do on a PC, away from your chair.

Misguided IMO because the price point compared to most ARM tablets is untenable (especially for OEMs), because the approach to Office licencing on it was stupid, and because they didn't put the effort into getting more non-MS applications ported and available in the store prior to launch.

The way to have handled it for a strong launch would have been:

• include Office in the licence for the OS,
• pay developers for eg the top 50 windows freeware packages (using stats from something like Secunia to determine popularity/usagE) to ensure that they had RT-ready versions ahead of launch,
• make Surface RT the OEM-only version and Surface Pro the MS-only version, to allow for differentiation between the two products without making OEMs choose between profits and price-competitiveness.

Torqay

Fysh wrote: »

Yeah, because I'm sure that rumoured FBI backdoors into Windows are a totally new thing and not the sort of thing that's been rumoured for decades.

Well, the Trusted Computing Module is not some "rumoured FBI backdoor", it is very real and Microsoft is holding the key. Heck, they now openly declare that they will delete/lock contents and applications as they see fit or where they are "legally required to do so". And it will happen through Windows 8 in combination with TCM 2.0.

Fysh

Torqay wrote: »

Well, the Trusted Computing Module is not some "rumoured FBI backdoor", it is very real and Microsoft is holding the key. Heck, they now openly declare that they will delete/lock contents and applications as they see fit or where they are "legally required to do so". And it will happen through Windows 8 in combination with TCM 2.0.

Yeah, but my point is that if you seriously think there was never any previous collaboration between major technology market players in the US (or, more recently Korea/China) and governments, then you're being very naive indeed. TPM is more of an explicit admission to doing something they've probably been doing all along, rather than a sudden shift from total hippy-like acquiescence to fascist authoritarianism.

Hell, Google have been making their own switches for about 6 years at this point - and you can bet that's because they have concerns about access to their data and data centres.

Ultimately, if you don't manufacture, code and compile it all yourself, you're going to have to accept some compromises. Knowing what you're dealing with and accepting the limitations involved is key to this, but pretending that Microsoft are some sort of lone Big Bad doing this stuff while everyone else wants to Stick It To The Man and totally not go along with this crap is foolish. Look at the industry discussion about sticking remote killswitches into smartphones if you don't believe me.

There's a simple solution, and that is to not use any computing device. Anything else is a compromise.

Overheal

Fysh wrote: »

• include Office in the licence for the OS,

RT is OEM, and it does include Office.

yoyo

Fysh wrote: »

Yeah, because I'm sure that rumoured FBI backdoors into Windows are a totally new thing and not the sort of thing that's been rumoured for decades. (Seriously, I remember reading the same allegations about Windows 95).

I remember the criticism about XPs product activation and the "privacy concerns" surrounding it, there was uproar over that when XP shipped and allot of people had the same attitude I'll never use XP, Windows 2000 is the perfect OS... Of course product activation is a right pita but at the same time the hype surrounding it was just hype and I'm sure many of those people against it finally went with XP when the time came they needed to switch (hint now is a good time to plan on getting rid of XP ).
The DRM included in XP for stuff like Windows Media and the likes was also a "massive problem" back then, and you had plenty of people giving out about that too.
Ultimately Windows 8 should have had a classic mode with a classic start menu, it doesn't and probably never will so either stick to Windows 7 or spend the 10 minutes it takes to familiarize yourself with the new system. It's really not that difficult :pac: .

Nick

Torqay

Fysh wrote: »

but pretending that Microsoft are some sort of lone Big Bad doing this stuff while everyone else wants to Stick It To The Man and totally not go along with this crap is foolish.

No, but unlike Apple computers or Android devices, the personal computer is an open platform. And Microsoft (in cahoots with the Trusted Computing consortium*) is about to change that. Apple and Google never claimed their eco systems to be open.

* when the TCM 2.0 standard was drafted, it was reported that the NSA was "in agreement".

yoyo

Torqay wrote: »

No, but unlike Apple computers or Android devices, the personal computer is an open platform. And Microsoft (in cahoots with the Trusted Computing consortium*) is about to change that. Apple and Google never claimed their eco systems to be open.

* when the TCM 2.0 standard was drafted, it was reported that the NSA was "in agreement".

TCM is something many organizations want for security reasons. Also TCM can be disabled if desired, and while obviously a locked in eco system in future would be bad there is no direct evidence Microsoft plan on doing this, and certainly it's not being done in Windows 8 (although you do need to boot into another mode in Windows 8 to install untrusted drivers, this may not actually be a bad idea )

Nick

Torqay

yoyo wrote: »

Also TCM can be disabled if desired

Unfortunately, you're wrong there. With Windows 8 TCM 2.0 cannot be disabled. No more opt-in or opt-out.

Fysh

Overheal wrote: »

RT is OEM, and it does include Office.

I know it's OEM, but MS made the mistake of forcing OEMs to compete with them, while simultaneously putting pricing restrictions on the OEMs that mean that either the OEM version would be a loss-leader or it would cost a good bit more than the MS version to achieve the same build/component quality. Which is a stupid move, especially when the baseline price is already too high for what amounts to a hobbled version of Windows. And goodness knows that making your OEM partners choose between price-competitiveness or profitability is a great way to not piss them off at all.

This is compounded by the Windows RT Office licencing precluding it from being used for business unless you upgrade the licence. Which is just a genius move, and definitely wouldn't lead to people saying "Windows RT can GTFO, if I need a tablet I'll buy an iPad/Nexus and put Documents To Go on it and if I really need full-fat Office I'll by a full-on laptop". Which of course is why they had to take an enormous write-down on unsold stock of the possibly-quite-reasonable-but-waaaaaaaay-overpriced foolishness that is the Windows RT Surface.

I got offered one through my employer at a discounted price of something like £170, which is about £70 higher than my "Ah $%&* it, let's give it a go" price point and didn't bother because for an extra £40 I could bump up to a Nexus 7 which I know I'll use, while I have no idea if I'd use the Surface for any longer than the novelty value lasted (bear in mind I still have a netbook so the niche that might be filled by a tablet is already occupied). And whatever crackfiend in their accounting department thought that a cover with integrated keyboard priced at £80 was going to make it more saleable deserves to have a crowbar visited upon their nether regions. As it is, it's not cheap enough to be an impulse buy and it doesn't have a compelling USP (no, having Office preinstalled isn't a USP for students at this point, and it's not for businesses either since they'd have to fork out for a licence upgrade to actually use it). Plus, the displays on the iPad and Nexus 10 will make it look bad in comparison (1366x768 is alright at 10", but not in comparison to 2560x1660 at 10" on competing devices...especially not when those devices can then boast accurate playback of full-HD content while the RT can at best do 720p).

If the Surface RT was aimed at students it needed to have a better-populated app store and a lower price overall (whether the keyboard cover was included or not). If it was aimed at business, the same would be true but a business-ready Office licence should have been included on the first year's worth of devices to try and drive uptake.

Capt'n Midnight

Trusted computing is getting a bit off topic

20 years ago it was the clipper chip and encryption being classified as "munitions"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip


And that tablet that won't run windows apps is just Windows CE all over again.

There is nothing wrong with it , apart from using the "windows" name and in any way shape or form implying that people would be able to use it like any other version of windows by running their existing programs

uncle_sam_ie

Fysh wrote: »

As far as the OP's comment goes: Yeah, because serious business strategy should always be determined by the frequently anonymous bitching of strangers on the internet...

This is more than just anonymous bitching on the internet. Even OEM's are putting blame to lack of PC sales down to Window 8. You have to admit Windows 8 has failed and the meme that it sucks is very strong. I can't see it changing for the better. It's going to be very hard to turn this ship around. Just like Vista the best business strategy now would be to leave in behind and moved on to next OS.

Torqay

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

Just like Vista the best business strategy now would be to leave in behind and moved on to next OS.

According to German compumag Chip, Windows 9 Beta will be ready in January, RTM next summer. It will see the return to a conventional desktop OS. Back to Aero UI and good riddance to tiles, apps and other nonsense. They'll probably yank the fast sinking Windows RT in favour of Windows Phone which will run on smartphones and tablets alike. Microsoft's foray into the tablet world was totally for the birds, their "partners" have jumped ship long time ago and now the lawyers are coming after them.

Fysh

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

This is more than just anonymous bitching on the internet. Even OEM's are putting blame to lack of PC sales down to Window 8. You have to admit Windows 8 has failed and the meme that it sucks is very strong. I can't see it changing for the better. It's going to be very hard to turn this ship around. Just like Vista the best business strategy now would be to leave in behind and moved on to next OS.

Nah, I disagree.

Firstly, anyone who decides on the overall state of any Windows release in its first year/SP0 state is a twit. XP, that darling OS of all the Win8 haters, was an unusable turd for the entirety of its SP0 lifespan (and didn't even manage to bring native USB support to the table, which was one of its then-vaunted advantages over the by-then-rock-solid Win2K). SP1, released after a year, was ok and made it usable, and SP2 was when they actually brought in features like the native firewall that made it a genuine move forward from Win2k. So to dismiss Win8, which is as an OS an iterative improvement on Windows 7 - an already-pretty-solid OS- because learning how to use a new UI involves putting a miniscule amount of effort in for a couple of days, is to announce yourself as a prat. Yes, I know, classic mode should've been built in. However, in the time it takes you to write a post like the above you can already have downloaded and installed ClassicShell, Start8, or any other utility to solve that problem - and if the entirety of your problem is "I don't like the way the Start Page replaced the Start Menu" then you really don't actually have a problem with the OS. As I've written repeatedly elsewhere, spend a little bit of time once on customising the Start Page to feature software you actually use, grouped in a way that is useful to you, and suddenly it's not the eyeball-stabbing ugliness it initially appears.

Secondly, the elephant in the room about PC sales being down is that OEM partners are looking for an excuse (any excuse) to explain why sales of their crappy cheap Windows laptops are down that doesn't involve admitting that tablets are eating into the low-end laptop market. If you're going to spend ~£300 on a device that you mainly use for mucking about on the internet, using Skype or whatever other videochat, watching Youtube/Netflix/whatever, and maybe the odd bit of light office-type work - you can get a tablet with a shiny screen that's portable, or you can get a bottom-of-the-barrel laptop.

The WinRT Surface and equivalent tablets were meant to answer this issue, but as I wrote previously in this thread, Microsoft fumbled their handling of this area and as a result most OEMs dont want to bother because at best they can produce low-margin craptabs that won't sell in comparison to Android tablets (because people at least know the Android Marketplace is well-supported and full of stuff they might like). I don't understand why Windows Phone 8 and Windows 8 RT both exist at the same time...a 10" WinPhone tablet would've been a more obvious and straightforward way to enter the tablet market, IMO, but equally this is all hindsight...

As for the "ditch it and move to Windows 9", I don't agree. Aside from anything else, MS have shown that they're struggling to keep up with a 3 year development cycle for a full OS even when they're catching up with the rest of the market in terms of tech. I think what they actually need to do is get win 8.1 out the door, address the usability concerns of Windows 8 on a non-touch device, and give serious consideration as to whether their approach of forcing one UI onto a bunch of devices with different HIDs has been successful.

uncle_sam_ie

Fysh wrote: »

Nah, I disagree.

Firstly, anyone who decides on the overall state of any Windows release in its first year/SP0 state is a twit. XP, that darling OS of all the Win8 haters, was an unusable turd for the entirety of its SP0 lifespan (and didn't even manage to bring native USB support to the table, which was one of its then-vaunted advantages over the by-then-rock-solid Win2K). SP1, released after a year, was ok and made it usable, and SP2 was when they actually brought in features like the native firewall that made it a genuine move forward from Win2k. So to dismiss Win8, which is as an OS an iterative improvement on Windows 7 - an already-pretty-solid OS- because learning how to use a new UI involves putting a miniscule amount of effort in for a couple of days, is to announce yourself as a prat. Yes, I know, classic mode should've been built in. However, in the time it takes you to write a post like the above you can already have downloaded and installed ClassicShell, Start8, or any other utility to solve that problem - and if the entirety of your problem is "I don't like the way the Start Page replaced the Start Menu" then you really don't actually have a problem with the OS. As I've written repeatedly elsewhere, spend a little bit of time once on customising the Start Page to feature software you actually use, grouped in a way that is useful to you, and suddenly it's not the eyeball-stabbing ugliness it initially appears.

Secondly, the elephant in the room about PC sales being down is that OEM partners are looking for an excuse (any excuse) to explain why sales of their crappy cheap Windows laptops are down that doesn't involve admitting that tablets are eating into the low-end laptop market. If you're going to spend ~£300 on a device that you mainly use for mucking about on the internet, using Skype or whatever other videochat, watching Youtube/Netflix/whatever, and maybe the odd bit of light office-type work - you can get a tablet with a shiny screen that's portable, or you can get a bottom-of-the-barrel laptop.

The WinRT Surface and equivalent tablets were meant to answer this issue, but as I wrote previously in this thread, Microsoft fumbled their handling of this area and as a result most OEMs dont want to bother because at best they can produce low-margin craptabs that won't sell in comparison to Android tablets (because people at least know the Android Marketplace is well-supported and full of stuff they might like). I don't understand why Windows Phone 8 and Windows 8 RT both exist at the same time...a 10" WinPhone tablet would've been a more obvious and straightforward way to enter the tablet market, IMO, but equally this is all hindsight...

.

Yes I understand and agree with all that, but what I'm saying is the meme that it sucks is the same as it was for Vista if not worse. It's getting a lot for bad press and even I am getting relatives and friends coming up me asking what to do because they're hearing it sucks. I just think it's going to be hard for MS to turn this negativity around. Also, when XP came out there was less competition in the market it was easier to turn that around.

Torqay

Fysh wrote: »

XP, that darling OS of all the Win8 haters, was an unusable turd for the entirety of its SP0 lifespan

Those who came from Win2K loathed that Fisher Price OS with a vengeance.

Fysh

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

Yes I understand and agree with all that, but what I'm saying is the meme that it sucks is the same as it was for Vista if not worse. It's getting a lot for bad press and even I am getting relatives and friends coming up me asking what to do because they're hearing it sucks. I just think it's going to be hard for MS to turn this negativity around. Also, when XP came out there was less competition in the market it was easier to turn that around.

What I don't think you're getting, though, is that the meme is based entirely (or almost entirely) on ignorance, which makes it completely different to the meme about Vista.

Vista had a number of genuine and substantial problems in its first 18 months - a combination of the Vista Home Basic fiasco (the result of Intel manufacturing a load of boards with integrated graphics that couldn't adequately run any of the Aero functionality, which led to them pressuring MS to come up with a low-end version of Vista that could still use these boards so that OEMs would buy them and Intel wouldn't be stuck with a load of now-useless inventory) which compounded the problem caused by MS lowballing the minimum specifications required to run it, poorly-tuned disk indexing that would frequently cause the system to grind to a halt, poorly tuned services like ReadyBoost and Superfetch that are best disabled, and issues intermittently/arbitrarily affecting update installation like the Infinite Reboot Loop of Death.

By the time SP1 landed, most of those issues could be solved without too much hassle, but even with the solutions applied Vista was still only really feasible for machines built or released after Vista (unless you had a very good machine). SP2 improved performance and reliability as well, but people had decided that it wasn't worth the hassle because Windows 7 was on the horizon.

Windows 8, on the other hand, has not had any comparable issues. The complaints about it are almost entirely surrounding the Modern UI - and I understand where they originate, since I was one of the people who complained about the UI back in the Release Preview Days. However, since Windows support is my dayjob I bought and installed a copy of Win 8 Pro on my home workstation, and quickly realised that once I accepted the new UI wasn't going away, there were some new keyboard shortcuts that would make dealing with it far easier than I had feared (I gravitate towards keyboard shortcuts anyway and have done for years). As soon as I realised this and put together my 1-page keyboard shortcut cheatsheet, I found that the Modern UI got out of my way and I was pretty much back in business as if I were running Windows 7 - except that the underlying OS is a bit better.

That is why the meme about Windows 8 annoys me - because it's predicated on not using the damn OS, but just looking at the new Start Page and going "EEEEEEEEEEEEEW!". I refuse to take commentary at that level of ignorance seriously, because a decade of experience working in support has taught me that if you worry about that sort of commentary instead of making people learn how to use the tools they're given, you'll go mad. And still have to deal with people being butthurt about how their new OS doesn't look identical to that one they used to like from way back in the Stone AGE.

uncle_sam_ie

Fysh wrote: »

What I don't think you're getting, though, is that the meme is based entirely (or almost entirely) on ignorance, which makes it completely different to the meme about Vista.

Vista had a number of genuine and substantial problems in its first 18 months - a combination of the Vista Home Basic fiasco (the result of Intel manufacturing a load of boards with integrated graphics that couldn't adequately run any of the Aero functionality, which led to them pressuring MS to come up with a low-end version of Vista that could still use these boards so that OEMs would buy them and Intel wouldn't be stuck with a load of now-useless inventory) which compounded the problem caused by MS lowballing the minimum specifications required to run it, poorly-tuned disk indexing that would frequently cause the system to grind to a halt, poorly tuned services like ReadyBoost and Superfetch that are best disabled, and issues intermittently/arbitrarily affecting update installation like the Infinite Reboot Loop of Death.

By the time SP1 landed, most of those issues could be solved without too much hassle, but even with the solutions applied Vista was still only really feasible for machines built or released after Vista (unless you had a very good machine). SP2 improved performance and reliability as well, but people had decided that it wasn't worth the hassle because Windows 7 was on the horizon.

Windows 8, on the other hand, has not had any comparable issues. The complaints about it are almost entirely surrounding the Modern UI - and I understand where they originate, since I was one of the people who complained about the UI back in the Release Preview Days. However, since Windows support is my dayjob I bought and installed a copy of Win 8 Pro on my home workstation, and quickly realised that once I accepted the new UI wasn't going away, there were some new keyboard shortcuts that would make dealing with it far easier than I had feared (I gravitate towards keyboard shortcuts anyway and have done for years). As soon as I realised this and put together my 1-page keyboard shortcut cheatsheet, I found that the Modern UI got out of my way and I was pretty much back in business as if I were running Windows 7 - except that the underlying OS is a bit better.

That is why the meme about Windows 8 annoys me - because it's predicated on not using the damn OS, but just looking at the new Start Page and going "EEEEEEEEEEEEEW!". I refuse to take commentary at that level of ignorance seriously, because a decade of experience working in support has taught me that if you worry about that sort of commentary instead of making people learn how to use the tools they're given, you'll go mad. And still have to deal with people being butthurt about how their new OS doesn't look identical to that one they used to like from way back in the Stone AGE.

Were actually on the same page. I do get that all this negativity is unfounded and annoying. All I'm saying is that all this negativity is hurting MS and at this point wouldn't it just be better to move on to Windows 9. I'm mean couldn't they do like the car industry by putting a racing stripe down the middle and calling it next years model.

Torqay

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

I'm mean couldn't they do like the car industry by putting a racing stripe down the middle and calling it next years model.

They have tried that stunt before and got a heavy beating (Mojave).

uncle_sam_ie

Torqay wrote: »

They have tried that stunt before and got a heavy beating (Mojave).

But, didn't that show rebranding works,

"The participants in the experiment were asked about their perceptions of Windows Vista and then were shown a ten minute demo of Microsoft's "next OS," codenamed "Mojave". After the experiment was over, it was revealed that "Mojave" was actually Windows Vista.[1] As a result, the average rating of "Vista" was 4.4 out of 10, but the average rating for the "Mojave" OS was 8.5 out of 10"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojave_Experiment

Torqay

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

But, didn't that show rebranding works

Only if it doesn't blow up in their face.

Windows 7 is basically a revamped and streamlined version of Windows Vista. It is no coincidence that 99% of Vista device drivers work so well with Windows 7. They only called it 7 because Mojave 2.0 wouldn't have gone down so well.

_Kaiser_

Torqay wrote: »

According to German compumag Chip, Windows 9 Beta will be ready in January, RTM next summer. It will see the return to a conventional desktop OS. Back to Aero UI and good riddance to tiles, apps and other nonsense.

Just read that article now - link here (use Chrome and it'll automatically translate it).

Be nice if it happens, and I'd agree that just having a Windows Desktop and Windows Phone & Tablet would be a good move after the tablet/RT foray.

Overheal

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

But, didn't that show rebranding works,

"The participants in the experiment were asked about their perceptions of Windows Vista and then were shown a ten minute demo of Microsoft's "next OS," codenamed "Mojave". After the experiment was over, it was revealed that "Mojave" was actually Windows Vista.[1] As a result, the average rating of "Vista" was 4.4 out of 10, but the average rating for the "Mojave" OS was 8.5 out of 10"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojave_Experiment

I had forgotten about project mojave.

The more I think about it the same thinking is being applied to the hype ahead of 8.1. Customers are themselves getting wound up and excited about it, because they perceive 8 to be so terrible and flawed and broken and sure enough just like pretending for your cat that you just put out fresh kibble for him suddenly that same bowl of stale meow mix is instantly more palatable

uncle_sam_ie

This is just a rumor so take it with grain of salt.

"According to WZOR, Windows 9 will be similar to the desktop OS we know today. He claims that Microsoft is planning to bring the old Aero interface back, but not as we all know it. That's all he teases regarding the Aero interface, but he also claims that Windows 9 will make an appearance in a years time, Much sooner than expected."

http://www.winbeta.org/news/alleged-windows-9-windows-10-windows-rt-and-windows-phone-details-emerge-rumor