Is endacl damned?

endacl

Hi folks. A bit of a spin-off from another discussion. Thanks to lmaopml for suggesting the third option.

I'll just quote my question in full and leave ye to it. I don't intend getting involved in much discussion on this one. It's really just the poll results I'd be interested in seeing. I'll answer any direct questions though.

Link to the original thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057014510

"Serious question, although I know by reputation I am a bit of a messer.....

I don't believe in God. I don't accept any of the evidence presented to support the existence of God. And I've heard and considered it all.... I don't reject it, I just don't accept it as compelling evidence. I never took a single isolated decision to become an atheist. There was no single point of 'realization' - no anti-epiphany if you like. I am however atheist, in the sense I have described, and have been for as long as I remember. Even in religion classes in primary school, the stories just came across as, well, they just came across as stories. Interestingly enough, even as a small child I remember being vaguely uncomfortable in the presence of very religious people when they were being overtly 'religious'.

I am as flawed as anybody else. I am generally, though, a decent person. If I see a chance to do some good, I take it. If I see a chance to avoid doing something bad, I take that. I am (to the best of my knowledge) well thought of, liked, and respected by family, friends and colleagues. I work in a 'helping' field. I do this by choice, as it suits my nature.

My question therefore is, 'am I damned'?

Yes or no? Presuming that the above is extremely unlikely to change."

It goes against my nature to exclude, but for the purposes of the poll, Christians only please! And although there is a third option, please bear in mind that my original question only included the first two.

I'll leave it with ye. My eternal fate is in your hands!

Edit: Poll open for 7 days from the date of this post.

lmaopml

Okay, you are fierce sure, and full of enthusiasm..lol.

..but what will it prove? I will vote however

endacl

I'm not looking for proof. Just opinion!

lmaopml

endacle make it a public one I dare you? You know where the names are tagged to the votes? It seems fair to do that?

endacl

lmaopml wrote: »

endacle make it a public one I dare you? You know where the names are tagged to the votes? It seems fair to do that?

I thought the secret ballot might promote honest voting!

Not sure it can be altered tbh? If a mod spots it and can do so, fire ahead.

TheChizler

lmaopml wrote: »

endacle make it a public one I dare you? You know where the names are tagged to the votes? It seems fair to do that?

Hey! I want the anonymity of my joke answer preserved! (Sory enda, saw it was you and thought the first post was going to say 'good looking' or something )

lmaopml

TheChizler wrote: »

Hey! I want the anonymity of my joke answer preserved!

Now now, no hiding behind the anonymous motives of the anonymity afforded here of your user name....let it all hang out I say, show your anon person up front! Hurrah!

Yeah? Maybe?..lol...This is silly but fun too, and could be quite eyeopening if judges have names.:P

endacl

lmaopml wrote: »

Now now, no hiding behind the anonymous motives of the anonymity afforded here of your user name....let it all hang out I say, show your anon person up front! Hurrah!

Yeah? Maybe?..lol...This is silly but fun too, and could be quite eyeopening if judges have names.:P

A discussion thread on the side perhaps?

I'm happy to have it public. Any idea how to change it?

lmaopml

endacl wrote: »

A discussion thread on the side perhaps?

I'm happy to have it public. Any idea how to change it?

I'm not even sure how one multi quotes endacl, I haven't spent too much time looking into it So I have no idea how to change a poll, I never put one up before....Maybe ask the Mod to make it public and your 'fate' will have a 'face'! I like this lightheartedness...we need more of it. Good on you!

endacl

Grand so. Official request to a Mod, Admin or Benevolent Deity. Please make the poll public.

Seriously? You don't know how to multiquote?!?

Just click the [+"] icon next to the 'quote' one for each post you want to include. Then hit reply and they'll all be in there. Great for pointing out logical flaws in an argument that's spread over a long thread!*
















* I won't be impressed if you ever use that tactic on me....

lmaopml

It's not likely I use the facility, but thanks for explaining, it just makes for really long posts...one thing at a time is my motto, and one post at a time with various meandering answers, with a dab of poetry or personal insight included for free that are hard to decipher for the most hardened poster.

It seems you are holding your own at the moment, hanging in the balance -

Tomorrow will tell the tale I'm quite sure as to your fate. Let the voting commence.

brian_t

1 Corinthians 4
5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Your eternal fate is in not in the hands of Christians !

I am quite sure that heaven will be full of people who at one time or another thought that they could never be saved.

homer911

We should really leave the judgement to God, but as you have asked..

Benny_Cake

Ok, I'm pretty sure there is no way to make public a poll that is private. As well as that it probably isn't a great idea to change it, as those who responded will have done so in the expectation of anonymity.Just imagine the social awkwardness if you met someone in real life who voted to send you to hell

I could create a public poll on a new thread though and merge the posts on this thread with it? Up to you endacl.

Since no one has mentioned purgatory yet, I'll leave this here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObglF8WUsWM

Reamer Fanny

I vote yes

SoulandForm

Obviously he or she isnt because they are still alive in their body and havent gone to judgement.

endacl

SoulandForm wrote: »

Obviously he or she isnt because they are still alive in their body and havent gone to judgement.

We're hypothetically supposing here that my belief system isn't going to change over the course of my lifetime. So under those circumstances....?

No sidestepping the question!

brianbeenan

endacl wrote: »

I don't accept any of the evidence presented to support the existence of God. I just don't accept it as compelling evidence.

If you reject the signs God sends you, then don't expect to be near him. You yourself have distanced yourself from him.

lmaopml

St. Thomas wouldn't believe unless he saw the scars of Jesus either...;)

I often wonder why the Lord kept those wounds, he could have easily healed them I suppose. Many times I think people see the crucifix more clearly when they are at a low point and understand better...
Afterall, crucifixion was such a shameful death, and God chose to reveal himself outside the city walls of Jerusalem hanging on a Cross and still loving to the last. I'm often in awe at the way the Holy Spirit inspired those first Christian martrys who had the job of spreading the Gospel and explaining that the much longed for Messiah wasn't a military man, but none other than this Jesus who revealed himself in this way....Amazing how Christianity spread so quick through the nations even when it was outlawed and often death awaited those captured.

I feel the need to post a poem...lol....if endacl doesn't mind me indulging in my shameless love of poetry

*titters*

“Jesus of the Scars”
by Edward Shillito
If we have never sought you, we seek you now;
Your eyes burn through the dark, our only stars;
We must have sight of thorn-marks on your brow,
We must have you, O Jesus of the scars.

The heavens frighten us; they are too calm;
In all the universe we have no place.
Our wounds are hurting us; where is the balm?
Lord Jesus, by your scars we know your grace.

If, when the doors are shut, you then draw near,
Only reveal those bloodied feet and hands .
We know today what wounds are, have no fear;
Show us your scars, we know the countersign
The other gods were strong; but you were weak;
They rode, but Jesus stumbled to a throne;
But to our wounds only God’s wounds can speak,
And not a god has wounds, but You alone


Okay, I'll leave your thread alone endacl now..lol.....

P.S. Best of luck with the salvation.

SoulandForm

endacl wrote: »

We're hypothetically supposing here that my belief system isn't going to change over the course of my lifetime. So under those circumstances....?

No sidestepping the question!

Well I am not going to be in the position of judging your soul- also you could be mentally ill and so not really responsible. However the Bible is clear that atheists who are in control of themselves are going to be damned.

RossieMan

i don't know you so i sent you to hell.

More space for me.

brian_t

endacl wrote: »

We're hypothetically supposing here that my belief system isn't going to change over the course of my lifetime. So under those circumstances....?

No you did not say that your belief system would not change.

You did say that it would be extremely unlikely to change.

That is not the same thing.

endacl wrote: »

Yes or no? Presuming that the above is extremely unlikely to change."

and just out of curiousity how does the following work

endacl wrote: »

For the purposes of the poll, Christians only please!.

endacl

Yeah, that's a discrepancy. I did also say I was flawed though. How about we let it go though, after the clarification. Just for the sake of keeping things on track. I think the spirit of the question is fairly clear?

The 'Christians only' bit? Because its a question I'm asking of Christians. And why I posted it in this forum. I'm honestly interested in hearing honest responses. That's all really.

Benny_Cake

Spiritual Atari Jaguar for me. I'd class myself as a hopeful universalist in that I hope all would be saved and believe that God can save everyone, I think it'd be presumptuous of me to say yes or no.

J C

endacl wrote: »

Yeah, that's a discrepancy. I did also say I was flawed though. How about we let it go though, after the clarification. Just for the sake of keeping things on track. I think the spirit of the question is fairly clear?

The 'Christians only' bit? Because its a question I'm asking of Christians. And why I posted it in this forum. I'm honestly interested in hearing honest responses. That's all really.

Only God (and possibly yourself) knows whether you will be Saved ... I'm praying that you will.
You're a much loved child of God ... but you need to return that love to be Saved.:)

SoulandForm

endacl wrote: »

Yeah, that's a discrepancy. I did also say I was flawed though. How about we let it go though, after the clarification. Just for the sake of keeping things on track. I think the spirit of the question is fairly clear?

The 'Christians only' bit? Because its a question I'm asking of Christians. And why I posted it in this forum. I'm honestly interested in hearing honest responses. That's all really.

Instead of asking people here you would be a lot better off reading the Bible to find out the Christian position.

endacl

SoulandForm wrote: »

Instead of asking people here you would be a lot better off reading the Bible to find out the Christian position.

As I remember reading here somewhere before though, there's no argument as to what the bible 'says'. There can be, on the other hand, quite a bit of disparity as to what it 'means'.

That's why I'm asking.

recedite

SoulandForm wrote: »

Well I am not going to be in the position of judging your soul- also you could be mentally ill and so not really responsible. However the Bible is clear that atheists who are in control of themselves are going to be damned.

Well that's comforting. There is some hope for you endacl

J C

recedite wrote: »

Well that's comforting. There is some hope for you endacl

There is hope for everyone ... Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life for a Fallen World.
... and endacl doesn't have to be mentally ill ... s/he just needs to ask Jesus to Save him/her.

smacl

endacl wrote: »

The 'Christians only' bit? Because its a question I'm asking of Christians. And why I posted it in this forum. I'm honestly interested in hearing honest responses. That's all really.

As a decent atheist, a kinder Christian (or at least Dante) would probably dump you in limbo for the rest of eternity. So yes, technically hell and damnation of sorts, but only the first circle of the inferno, and you'd be in good company. The thinking mans hell, more of a deficient form of Heaven really.

Of course a less kind Christian might label you a heretic, which would buy you a one way ticket to level 6.

SoulandForm

smacl wrote: »

As a decent atheist, a kinder Christian (or at least Dante) would probably dump you in limbo for the rest of eternity. So yes, technically hell and damnation of sorts, but only the first circle of the inferno, and you'd be in good company. The thinking mans hell, more of a deficient form of Heaven really.

Of course a less kind Christian might label you a heretic, which would buy you a one way ticket to level 6.

But we are talking about someone who knows about Christianity!

You cant consider him the way you would a Seneca or a Socrates!

Also Dante was being rigorist- most Christians believe that Christ after conquering hell brought "good pagans" such as Plato and Virgil into Heaven,

endacl

J C wrote: »

There is hope for everyone ... Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life for a Fallen World.
... and endacl doesn't have to be mentally ill ... s/he just needs to ask Jesus to Save him/her.

Just for clarity, that'd be 'he'.

santing

Its not really about my opinion, I would say. I would love to say "No", but I am not the Judge.
A well known and beautiful portion of Scripture is John 3.16 ... I add it with as extended quote.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (John 3:16-18)

brian_t

SoulandForm wrote: »

most Christians believe that Christ after conquering hell brought "good pagans" such as Plato and Virgil into Heaven,

To be fair I would say that most Christians have not given that matter any thought at all and therefore hold no opinion on it..

SoulandForm

brian_t wrote: »

To be fair I would say that most Christians have not given that matter any thought at all and therefore hold no opinion on it..

I dont think that is true- what do you think people think about during the saturday before Easter sunday?

endacl

SoulandForm wrote: »

I dont think that is true- what do you think people think about during the saturday before Easter sunday?

Easter eggs!

Sorry. I know I said I'd stay out of general chat, but I couldn't resist that one!



Right. Back in character...

smacl

SoulandForm wrote: »

But we are talking about someone who knows about Christianity!

You cant consider him the way you would a Seneca or a Socrates!

Also Dante was being rigorist- most Christians believe that Christ after conquering hell brought "good pagans" such as Plato and Virgil into Heaven,

Dante also includes virtuous pagans that were aware of Christ, notably Saladin who fought Christian invaders in his day, but was nonetheless considered a man of significant virtue. But then the Divine Comedy was a work of satire, and doubtless not entirely representative of mainstream Christian belief.

Sorry Endacl, no easy time in the pit for you it seems.

hinault

All I can add is that every single person's fate is in their own reckoning.

No one other you will be responsible when the record of your life, your thoughts, your actions throughout this life, are put up for judgement.

Whether you get to argue your case, I do not know.

I assume that your case will be solely measured and judged in accordance with the rules that were told to you on this planet.

endacl

Some very interesting points being made. Looking forward to the poll closing, when I will respond to all - probably in a massive multiquote - and we can see what emerges from a discussion. Thanks all for responding.

J C

endacl wrote: »

Easter eggs!

Sorry. I know I said I'd stay out of general chat, but I couldn't resist that one!



Right. Back in character...

Given the fact that damnation can be avoided by being Saved ... should the thread be re-titled 'Is endacl still damned'?:):D

recedite

hinault wrote: »

when the record of your life, your thoughts, your actions throughout this life, are put up for judgement...
Whether you get to argue your case, I do not know.

Ah no, that' the Egyptian god Anubis you are thinking of. He weighs up your heart on a weighing scales, and if the sins of the heart outweigh the goodness in an ostrich feather, he chucks your heart into the Crocodile god's mouth. If the sins are few, he lets you through to the afterlife.

The Christian god forgives everything, as long as you believe in him.

J C

recedite wrote: »

Ah no, that' the Egyptian god Anubis you are thinking of. He weighs up your heart on a weighing scales, and if the sins of the heart outweigh the goodness in an ostrich feather, he chucks your heart into the Crocodile god's mouth. If the sins are few, he lets you through to the afterlife.

... sounds like the 'Crocodile god' will be very fat ... and everybody will be heartless, if 'Anubis' has his way!!!:)

recedite wrote: »

The Christian god forgives everything, as long as you believe in him.

... Jesus loves everybody ... and forgives everybody who asks ... what a perfect God!!!:)

I certainly wouldn't fancy my chances with 'Anubis' ... so I think that I'll stick with Jesus Christ!!!

indy_man

endacl wrote: »

My question therefore is, 'am I damned'?

Yes or no? Presuming that the above is extremely unlikely to change."

hmmm, I'm starting to think you might be a future saint in the making... My faith tells me people of Good will as you are, will be fairly judged and that God is compassionate, mercyful and kind. damned? I don't think so.

Sometimes I actually prefer an Athiest with conviction that some watered down yes men christians that stand up against nothing.

J C

indy_man wrote: »

hmmm, I'm starting to think you might be a future saint in the making... My faith tells me people of Good will as you are, will be fairly judged and that God is compassionate, mercyful and kind. damned? I don't think so.

Sometimes I actually prefer an Athiest with conviction that some watered down yes men christians that stand up against nothing.

Quite true.
This is what Jesus Christ has to say to lukewarm churches that neither defend nor proclaim Him as exemplified by the Church in Laodicea:-

Revelation 3:14-18
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

Jan T.

Who knows what each of us will believe and do before our last breath here.

One thing we do know, is that no one taught us more about hell than Jesus. He directed most of his teachings about hell to believers, rather than non believers. There will be a great many 'Christians' in hell. Not everyone who said "Lord Lord", will enter the kingdom of heaven. Christ was very clear about that. It's far more than just a belief. Even the demons believe. Many of us Christians at times offer a very poor example of practicing Christianity towards others.

There are many questions and variables :

Have we ever sought the gift of belief ?

Have we ever asked God for the gift of belief ?

Do we go on asking ?

Do we want to believe in God ?

Do we want to believe in Christ and what he taught ?

Do we want to do what Christ told us to do ?

Will we just talk the talk, and preach to others what they should do, or will we actually walk the walk ?

Current Christian or Current Atheist, those questions, and our chosen lives, will go some way to answering the question for all of us.

onlinenerd

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Spiritual Atari Jaguar for me. I'd class myself as a hopeful universalist in that I hope all would be saved and believe that God can save everyone, I think it'd be presumptuous of me to say yes or no.

You have a point as people say that God is love and merciful but then why hell.

Jesus sums it up when he says to St Faustina

"My mercy does not desire it but justice demands it"

recedite

onlinenerd wrote: »

Jesus sums it up when he says to St Faustina

"My mercy does not desire it but justice demands it"

That wasn't Jesus, that was a voice in her own head. She said so herself.

I saw our Lady visiting the souls.in Purgatory. The souls call her "The Star of the Sea". She brings them refreshment. I wanted to talk with them some more, but my Guardian Angel beckoned me to leave. We went out of that prison of suffering. B]I heard an interior voice[/B which said, My mercy does not want this, but my justice demands it. Since that time, I am in closer communion with the suffering souls. (Diary 20)

todders

endacl wrote: »

I'm not looking for proof. Just opinion!

My opinion is proof, as a non-believer you are damned

Benny_Cake

onlinenerd wrote: »

You have a point as people say that God is love and merciful but then why hell.

Jesus sums it up when he says to St Faustina

"My mercy does not desire it but justice demands it"

Most universalists probably wouldn't deny the existence of hell, but would simply believe that hell is not eternal, and that in the end everyone will be saved. There is a good question and answer about the idea here. The idea is an old one but it has received a lot of attention since the well known American pastor Rob Bell alluded to the idea in his book "Love Wins" a few years back.

Regarding St.Faustina, I know less than nothing about her so I can't comment on that.

endacl

todders wrote: »

My opinion is proof, as a non-believer you are damned

Janey mackers!

Lady Chuckles

Damned is such a harsh word.
I certainly wouldn't think anyone is damned unless maybe if they're 'rotten to the core' and not sorry at all - but even then it's not up to me to decide

In your case and this poll however, it's clearly a 'no' from me. You are not damned as far as I'm concerned