Why is the 6 series so much more expensive than the A7 or CLS?

Shane732

I would regard the 6 series/A7 and CLS as roughly being in the same market.

Yet a 2012 6 series will set you back €85k versus €60k for a CLS or A7.

Is there a particular reason for this? Am I missing something?

shazysps

maybe it has more comfort

bazz26

Are they all the same spec?

TBi

Supply/demand?

toastedpickles

Badge snobbery if you ask me

Matt Simis

Dont bother looking at the Irish prices, Revenue's antics will f_k over and confuse things. Looking at the UK prices and spec... the 6 series is not quite competing with the CLS and A7 (though the CLS and A7 are competitors). The 6 series has just 3 engine options and all of them are performance tuned, much like the rest of the car. Its pretty focused on the GT ideal of old, which is a good thing.


The CLS has far more models and starts out with a weenerish 4pot 200bhp affair, which is just tragic.
http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/content/unitedkingdom/mpc/mpc_unitedkingdom_website/en/home_mpc/passengercars/home/new_cars/models/cls-class/_c218/facts/technicaldata.html

The smaller of the three 6 series models is 313bhp and a 6pot (and gets pretty much the same MPG as Mercs 4pot effort).
http://www.bmw.co.uk/en/new-vehicles/6/coupe/2011/engines.html

Audi is always cheaper than the other two and has about 14 different versions of the A7, which in many ways makes it a little too obvious its a nicely reskinned A6.
http://www.audi.co.uk/new-cars/a7/a7-sportback/specifications.html

Somehow despite so many A7 versions, 90% of them is their workhorse 3.0TDI engine. They also have a show over go 204BHP entry model, dragging down the entrance fee to the A7 range.

Shane732

Matt Simis wrote: »

Dont bother looking at the Irish prices, Revenue's antics will f_k over and confuse things. Looking at the UK prices and spec... the 6 series is not quite competing with the CLS and A7 (though the CLS and A7 are competitors). The 6 series has just 3 engine options and all of them are performance tuned, much like the rest of the car. Its pretty focused on the GT ideal of old, which is a good thing.


The CLS has far more models and starts out with a weenerish 4pot 200bhp affair, which is just tragic.
http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/content/unitedkingdom/mpc/mpc_unitedkingdom_website/en/home_mpc/passengercars/home/new_cars/models/cls-class/_c218/facts/technicaldata.html

The smaller of the three 6 series models is 313bhp and a 6pot (and gets pretty much the same MPG as Mercs 4pot effort).
http://www.bmw.co.uk/en/new-vehicles/6/coupe/2011/engines.html

Audi is always cheaper than the other two and has about 14 different versions of the A7, which in many ways makes it a little too obvious its a nicely reskinned A6.
http://www.audi.co.uk/new-cars/a7/a7-sportback/specifications.html

Somehow despite so many A7 versions, 90% of them is their workhorse 3.0TDI engine. They also have a show over go 204BHP entry model, dragging down the entrance fee to the A7 range.

I can't understand why Merc put a 2 litre into the CLS. It must be as slow as Christmas.

The VRT isn't actually too bad on bringing a 6 series into the country. They have it in a very high depreciating bracket.

The only one of the 3 I'd drive would be the 6. I really like the look of it.

Gumbo

toastedpickles wrote: »

Badge snobbery if you ask me

Do explain.....

ugglasdav

kceire wrote: »

Do explain.....

you are paying extra for a badge ( Bmw Badge )

ofcork

Id say if you compare similar engine sizes and spec the gap may not be huge.

Matt Simis

Matt Simis wrote: »

The CLS has far more models and starts out with a weenerish 4pot 200bhp affair, which is just tragic.
http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/content/unitedkingdom/mpc/mpc_unitedkingdom_website/en/home_mpc/passengercars/home/new_cars/models/cls-class/_c218/facts/technicaldata.html

The smaller of the three 6 series models is 313bhp and a 6pot (and gets pretty much the same MPG as Mercs 4pot effort).
http://www.bmw.co.uk/en/new-vehicles/6/coupe/2011/engines.html

Audi is always cheaper than the other two and has about 14 different versions of the A7, which in many ways makes it a little too obvious its a nicely reskinned A6.
http://www.audi.co.uk/new-cars/a7/a7-sportback/specifications.html

Somehow despite so many A7 versions, 90% of them is their workhorse 3.0TDI engine. They also have a show over go 204BHP entry model, dragging down the entrance fee to the A7 range.

Shane732 wrote: »

I can't understand why Merc put a 2 litre into the CLS. It must be as slow as Christmas.

Ah come on lads, both cars are over 200bhp that's more than the majority of cars on the road in Ireland and would be considered a powerful car by most. Most buyers don't want or need massive power and would rather the close to 5k sterling in their back pocket compared to the next engine up (actually its 8k cheaper for the 204ps vs the 245ps A7 and the 204 does 10mpg more).

If I was Audi I'd have put the 170bhp 2.0TDI engine in the A7 as it would be cheaper again, more economical and open up more potential buyers which makes perfect sense from a business perspective.

Shane732

Paityn Scary Rigor wrote: »

Ah come on lads, both cars are over 200bhp that's more than the majority of cars on the road in Ireland and would be considered a powerful car by most. Most buyers don't want or need massive power and would rather the close to 5k sterling in their back pocket compared to the next engine up (actually its 8k cheaper for the 204ps vs the 245ps A7 and the 204 does 10mpg more).

If I was Audi I'd have put the 170bhp 2.0TDI engine in the A7 as it would be cheaper again, more economical and open up more potential buyers which makes perfect sense from a business perspective.

Well I wouldn't buy a 200bhp car. In fact I wouldn't buy under 300bhp.

Each to their own.

HandsomeDan

ugglasdav wrote: »

you are paying extra for a badge ( Bmw Badge )

???

But the other cars also have prestige badges?

MetzgerMeister

Shane732 wrote: »

Well I wouldn't buy a 200bhp car. In fact I wouldn't buy under 300bhp.

Each to their own.

Your current car is only 6 bhp over your 300 limit

Shane732

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

Your current car is only 6 bhp over your 300 limit

The key word in your sentence! I suppose where I'm coming from is that I wouldn't buy something with less power than what I'm driving now.

Northern Monkey

The 6 is overpriced. My friend is a salesman for a UK BMW dealer and he admits as much. He says they knock as much as 10k off a new one when selling them.

MetzgerMeister

Shane732 wrote: »

The key word in your sentence! I suppose where I'm coming from is that I wouldn't buy something with less power than what I'm driving now.

I was only joking :P

Shane732

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

I was only joking :P

I know that!

Shane732

Shane732 wrote: »

Well I wouldn't buy a 200bhp car. In fact I wouldn't buy under 300bhp.

Each to their own.

Well I'd count myself fairly into my cars and I'd even count anything from 200bhp upwards as being fairly powerful. My car is 200bhp on the button officially (though they say GTI's often hit 210ish standard on the dyno) and I would say I drive a a fairly powerful car.

However the point in my post was, it wouldn't make sense for these companies to make only big engines powerful cars! There are an awful lot of people that just don't care about what's under the bonnet, but still they want a car nicer than your run of the mill car.

Matt Simis

Paityn Scary Rigor wrote: »

Ah come on lads, both cars are over 200bhp that's more than the majority of cars on the road in Ireland and would be considered a powerful car by most. Most buyers don't want or need massive power and would rather the close to 5k sterling in their back pocket compared to the next engine up (actually its 8k cheaper for the 204ps vs the 245ps A7 and the 204 does 10mpg more).

If I was Audi I'd have put the 170bhp 2.0TDI engine in the A7 as it would be cheaper again, more economical and open up more potential buyers which makes perfect sense from a business perspective.

I was wondering who would be the first to play the old "sure its all the power you need" card. The 6 series is a GT, the idea (as with your Audi suggestion) of it having a little 4pot 200bhp buzzing away is just sickening.

Big expensive GTs are not your vanilla commuter car. They should and generally do have something special under the hood. Except the Merc, which is pathetic.

Paityn Scary Rigor wrote: »

Well I'd count myself fairly into my cars and I'd even count anything from 200bhp upwards as being fairly powerful. My car is 200bhp on the button officially (though they say GTI's often hit 210ish standard on the dyno) and I would say I drive a a fairly powerful car.

However the point in my post was, it wouldn't make sense for these companies to make only big engines powerful cars! There are an awful lot of people that just don't care about what's under the bonnet, but still they want a car nicer than your run of the mill car.

Power to weight man, power to weight! Also sometimes its ok for something not to appeal to everyone.


Besides, this tangent I guess answers the original question, the Merc and Audi are downclassing, the BMW is upclassing (or maintaining its position).

Matt Simis

Matt Simis wrote: »

I was wondering who would be the first to play the old "sure its all the power you need" card. The 6 series is a GT, the idea (as with your Audi suggestion) of it having a little 4pot 200bhp buzzing away is just sickening.

Big expensive GTs are not your vanilla commuter car. They should and generally do have something special under the hood. Except the Merc, which is pathetic.

If Audi and Mercedes are selling cars and making money, do they care?

Matt Simis wrote: »

Power to weight man, power to weight!.

I understand power to weight, don't think I don't but a quick check puts my 3 door GTI at about 200kg less than an A7. So basically my GTI with a full complement of passengers, yes I feel the difference with a crowd in the car but it still leaves most cars on the road dissappearing into my rear view mirror and couple that with the torque of the 3.0TDI and I reckon you would notice the weight even less.

That said I'd gladly take on an A7 (204ps) and be confident of winning

Sobanek

What I don't get myself, is why the 6 Series is more expensive than the 7 Series.

Isn't the 6 Series still based on the 5 Series?

Shane732

Paityn Scary Rigor wrote: »

If Audi and Mercedes are selling cars and making money, do they care?



I understand power to weight, don't think I don't but a quick check puts my 3 door GTI at about 200kg less than an A7. So basically my GTI with a full complement of passengers, yes I feel the difference with a crowd in the car but it still leaves most cars on the road dissappearing into my rear view mirror and couple that with the torque of the 3.0TDI and I reckon you would notice the weight even less.

That said I'd gladly take on an A7 (204ps) and be confident of winning

I'm lost... What point are you trying to make here?

Shane732

Shane732 wrote: »

I'm lost... What point are you trying to make here?

First point was Audi and Mercedes or BMW in general aren't bothered about the fact some traditionalists think certain cars should only have big powerful engines. They are happy to stick a smaller engine in the car in order to sell more and make more money.

I don't see the problem here, the big engined powerful versions are still there I don't get why people are bothered over the fact they have entry level models, which in reality are probably the only reason it's viable for the company to have the powerful versions.

2nd point was simply an A7 isn't that heavy in response to a power to weight question and if you but an average person behind the wheel of the 204ps one they would think it was very fast and be very happy with it.

Eric Cartman

Sobanek wrote: »

What I don't get myself, is why the 6 Series is more expensive than the 7 Series.

Isn't the 6 Series still based on the 5 Series?

Differen target markets , 6 series - midlife crisis, women, performance enthusiasts, people with serious money, car enthusiasts from 23 upwards (insurance reasons) , the list goes on , its a pretty broad appeal

7 series : executives, taxi drivers, aul lads, me . - fantastic car but not a lot of people would throw the cash at it as it doesnt suit them , personaly id have the 7 over the 6 but for most that wouldnt be the case

Bigus

Here's a picture for the those who haven't seen a 6 series.

I've seen two in the flesh and they are definitely something special too look at.

Shane732

Paityn Scary Rigor wrote: »

First point was Audi and Mercedes or BMW in general aren't bothered about the fact some traditionalists think certain cars should only have big powerful engines. They are happy to stick a smaller engine in the car in order to sell more and make more money.

I don't see the problem here, the big engined powerful versions are still there I don't get why people are bothered over the fact they have entry level models, which in reality are probably the only reason it's viable for the company to have the powerful versions.

2nd point was simply an A7 isn't that heavy in response to a power to weight question and if you but an average person behind the wheel of the 204ps one they would think it was very fast and be very happy with it.

When you were pointing on the A7 power to weight you compared it to a Golf GTI power to weight.

The power to weight of an entry A7 is about 120bhp. The power to weight of a entry 6 series is 180bhp.

There's a big difference.

Shane732

mickdw

That's the worst looking 6 series ive ever seen. Far too chavy for me.
The 4 door that bigus posted is stunning without a doubt.

Max Power1

mickdw wrote: »

That's the worst looking 6 series ive ever seen. Far too chavy for me.
The 4 door that bigus posted is stunning without a doubt.

Clearly beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I think that the 6 either in two or 4 door guise is a beautiful looking car.

If I could afford the running costs I would have an e63 650i in a heartbeat. And the newer model is much better looking too.

mickdw

Nothing wrong with the coupe but that particular one in red just doesn't do it for me.

Shane732

Shane732 wrote: »

When you were pointing on the A7 power to weight you compared it to a Golf GTI power to weight.
.

Yeah I did because I have one and consider it quite fast, it has the same power as the entry A7 and the A7 isn't massively heavier so I was trying to say that I'd probably consider the entry level A7 reasonably fast also and for most people it would be loads of power. The bigger engine would be wasted in them.

Btw I'm not saying I wouldn't want the much more powerful ones myself but I'm just discussing why Audi have a cheaper lower powered and more economical option.

Donnelly117

A MK5 3 door GTi weighs 1328 kg. An A7 weighs 1695 kg. Thats a difference of about 370 kilos. That is a huge weight difference and the power to weight ration drops from 153bhp/t to 120bhp/t from the GTi to the A7