New windows in rented property

MILF

Hi all,

I have been renting my house for the last 8 years. Last year I asked our Landlord would she replace the windows in the house because they are single glazed and wooden framed and the cold comes in through the house every year. We can't sit on the couch at the window in the winter because there is a draft that comes in because of the cold. When we asked her to replace them she said no because it was too expensive and she sent her husband around to replace the trim around the window. As soon as the window opened, it fell off.

It was recently brought to my attention that in the 8 years that I'm here, she has never gotten a BER certificate. I am wondering if it would get a good BER rating due to these windows.

Is anyone able to tell me if she is obliged to replace these windows or do we have any leg to stand on? Our heating bills are massive in the winter and I don't want to have to go through another winter like that!

thanks!

Richard Dower

^ the danger i see is she might hike up the rent....but rental properties since feb. are by law supposed to have a BER rating, anything below a D is a fail. The LL must bring the property upto code.

She is registered with the PTRB?...anyway you could contribute to the windows being replaced?

Richard Dower

Btw...lovin' yer screen name.......;)

MILF wrote: »

Hi all,

I have been renting my house for the last 8 years. Last year I asked our Landlord would she replace the windows in the house because they are single glazed and wooden framed and the cold comes in through the house every year. We can't sit on the couch at the window in the winter because there is a draft that comes in because of the cold. When we asked her to replace them she said no because it was too expensive and she sent her husband around to replace the trim around the window. As soon as the window opened, it fell off.

It was recently brought to my attention that in the 8 years that I'm here, she has never gotten a BER certificate. I am wondering if it would get a good BER rating due to these windows.

Is anyone able to tell me if she is obliged to replace these windows or do we have any leg to stand on? Our heating bills are massive in the winter and I don't want to have to go through another winter like that!

thanks!

murphaph

Richard Dower wrote: »

^ the danger i see is she might hike up the rent....but rental properties since feb. are by law supposed to have a BER rating, anything below a D is a fail. The LL must bring the property upto code.

She is registered with the PTRB?...anyway you could contribute to the windows being replaced?

There's no such thing as a fail Richie. The house wouldn't be accepted by most local authorities if it's below D3 for RAS but in a private rental situation there is no requirement for any minimum. It's up to the tenant to take it or not.

With single glazed windows I'm guessing this property is otherwise poorly insulated and draughty and would probably do well to get an E. The only option open to the OP is to move house if the LL really can't/won't invest in the property.

Tbh in 2013 I would consider single glazing a very poor show and I wouldn't remain living there.

ballyharpat

Richard Dower wrote: »

^ the danger i see is she might hike up the rent....but rental properties since feb. are by law supposed to have a BER rating, anything below a D is a fail. The LL must bring the property upto code.

She is registered with the PTRB?...anyway you could contribute to the windows being replaced?

She does not need a Ber if you have been renting since 2009.

There is no such thing as a fail in the BER rating, I just rented an apartment that had an F rating, but it was because it has electric heating and because there were just regular lightbulbs, instead of energy saving bulbs. In reality, it is a top floor apartment and is very energy efficient....

If she does not want to replace the windows, she does not have to. You have the option of finding other accomodation?

xper

Richard Dower wrote: »

^ the danger i see is she might hike up the rent....but rental properties since feb. are by law supposed to have a BER rating, anything below a D is a fail. The LL must bring the property upto code.

Would you care to provide a source to back up that statement? Yes, any property offered for rent these days must by law have a BER certificate. But there is no minimum rating required unless I am very much mistaken. Any property can get a cert. If its a poorly performing property, it'll be a 'G' rating but its still a cert. The BER certificate's purpose is not to enforce minimum standards to provide any prospective renter or purchaser with a guide to the energy performance of the property.

OP, asking you landlord to get a BER rating for the property isn't going to change your situation one iota. All the BER report will tell you is that the energy performance of the home could be improved by replacing the single-glazing windows with new double- or triple-glazed ones. But you know that already. It does not compel the landlord to do so.

Replacing a house full of windows is extremely expensive. You're looking at a five figure sum. A landlord is going to be very slow to do so for a sitting tenant, even for one thats been there for a while. If you are likely to be in this property for a several years to come, you might offer to make a significant contribution to the cost of replacing the windows in return for a discount on the rent for a long time to come although you'd need a water-tight lease agreement to ensure you get that discount for a long period.

Richard Dower

The D fail i mentioned must only relate to local authority/RAS property then........

xper wrote: »

Would you care to provide a source to back up that statement? Yes, any property offered for rent these days must by law have a BER certificate. But there is no minimum rating required unless I am very much mistaken. Any property can get a cert. If its a poorly performing property, it'll be a 'G' rating but its still a cert. The BER certificate's purpose is not to enforce minimum standards to provide any prospective renter or purchaser with a guide to the energy performance of the property.

OP, asking you landlord to get a BER rating for the property isn't going to change your situation one iota. All the BER report will tell you is that the energy performance of the home could be improved by replacing the single-glazing windows with new double- or triple-glazed ones. But you know that already. It does not compel the landlord to do so.

Replacing a house full of windows is extremely expensive. You're looking at a five figure sum. A landlord is going to be very slow to do so for a sitting tenant, even for one thats been there for a while. If you are likely to be in this property for a several years to come, you might offer to make a significant contribution to the cost of replacing the windows in return for a discount on the rent for a long time to come although you'd need a water-tight lease agreement to ensure you get that discount for a long period.

xper

Richard Dower wrote: »

The D fail i mentioned must only relate to local authority/RAS property then........

Yes, I think that may be the case specifically for the RAS scheme. (Its a pretty blunt instrument to use as a standard).

Pawwed Rig

MILF wrote: »

I have been renting my house for the last 8 years.

It can't be that bad if you have stayed so long?

It could be a case that you cannot change the windows depending on the area you are in (Georgian House/protected structure etc)

MILF

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

It can't be that bad if you have stayed so long?

It is that bad, we just always put up with it. I don't want to move, my kids are in the local schools and I'm settled. I could contribute to the windows I guess but is that not just a win for the landlord?

murphaph

MILF wrote: »

It is that bad, we just always put up with it. I don't want to move, my kids are in the local schools and I'm settled. I could contribute to the windows I guess but is that not just a win for the landlord?

No, the LL doesn't pay your energy bills.

Something like that would be fairly common in Germany. My partner's sister and her partner recently agreed to a rent increase for a new kitchen. The alternative was to buy it themselves.

You could ask your LL for a very long lease and look at splitting the cost. It will possibly be the only way you'll ever get the windows in.

You should also look at secondary glazing as an alternative to full blown double/triple glazing.

uberalles

Richard Dower wrote: »

^ the danger i see is she might hike up the rent....but rental properties since feb. are by law supposed to have a BER rating, anything below a D is a fail. The LL must bring the property upto code.

She is registered with the PTRB?...anyway you could contribute to the windows being replaced?

So if they get a D minus what happens? They are obliged by law to sort it and get it higher by upgrades?

ballyharpat

MILF wrote: »

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

It can't be that bad if you have stayed so long?

It is that bad, we just always put up with it. I don't want to move, my kids are in the local schools and I'm settled. I could contribute to the windows I guess but is that not just a win for the landlord?

Is it not a win for you?

I will be renting out my house in a few months, if all goes to plan, I currently have a couch that the dog has torn, I will be replacing it when I get new tenents because I will be charging top dollar to rent out my house, as it has been my home for some time. Perhaps your landlord knows that they can rent out the house-because of the location to school etc-to anyone for the same or more than you are paying. It is a business that they are running, not a housing authority. They may have to charge more rent to make up for the money spent on new windows if they do replace them. Having said that, if the windows are in really poor condition, you can report the landlord, if they refuse to replace them. But this may be biting off your nose to spite your face, as the house may be found to be uninhabitable.

MILF

ballyharpat wrote: »

MILF wrote: »

Is it not a win for you?

I will be renting out my house in a few months, if all goes to plan, I currently have a couch that the dog has torn, I will be replacing it when I get new tenents because I will be charging top dollar to rent out my house, as it has been my home for some time. Perhaps your landlord knows that they can rent out the house-because of the location to school etc-to anyone for the same or more than you are paying. It is a business that they are running, not a housing authority. They may have to charge more rent to make up for the money spent on new windows if they do replace them. Having said that, if the windows are in really poor condition, you can report the landlord, if they refuse to replace them. But this may be biting off your nose to spite your face, as the house may be found to be uninhabitable.

Are you saying it would be uninhabitable from me living there? I have repainted every room in the house, replaced a dishwasher, put in carpet in the hall, stairs and landing and wood floors in the front room and back room. I have bought a new fridge and a washing machine and bought a new couch to replace the one that was here when I moved in because I didnt like it. I have never, ever gone near them for anything other than asked them for new windows. I pay my rent on time every single month. I have had a reduction of €120 in the 8 years I've been here. I am a good tenant and will continue to be.

Pawwed Rig

Relax. They are saying if you report the house to the relevant authority they may deem the windows inadequate thereby making the house not fit for purpose. In which case you may need to move if the LL does not bring it back to standard.

MILF

I wasn't saying that in a smart way, I was saying it kind of shocked that maybe after all the years you stay with a landlord, they really would let the house go into such a state where it would be deemed not fit for purpose. If someone is renting somewhere and they keep it in a good condition and treat it as their own house, and just once they need something (granted, it is expensive but long term it is worth the investment), surely they would invest??

D3PO

OP firstly to clarify your LL has no legal obligation to have a BER cert as you have been renting pre 2009. They would only be required to get one if you moved out and they had to relet.

Secondly as has been pointed out a few times. Richard is wrong there is no such thing as a BER fail and there is no legal obligation for your LL to replace the windows. However a reasonable conversation with the LL should yield some results if they aren't braindead.

Any LL worth their salt would want to keep 8 year tenured tenants that are no hassle, the value in that is significant. However so is the cost of replacing the windows. Perhaps a compromise could be struck i.e replacing this one drafty window rather than all windows ?

If they really wont even enter into discussions you have to seriously think about your situation are you willing to continuing renting with the status quo or is it time to move out. Only you can decide.

the_syco

Have a look around at other houses nearby that have the double or treble glazed windows, and consider prices, etc.

MILF wrote: »

I have repainted every room in the house, replaced a dishwasher, put in carpet in the hall, stairs and landing and wood floors in the front room and back room. I have bought a new fridge and a washing machine and bought a new couch to replace the one that was here when I moved in because I didnt like it. I have never, ever gone near them for anything other than asked them for new windows. I pay my rent on time every single month. I have had a reduction of €120 in the 8 years I've been here. I am a good tenant and will continue to be.

You sound like an awesome tenant, but it also sounds like the landlord is being a ****, by letting you pay for replacing everything yourself. I suppose if you had asked them to replace anything that you had replaced already, you may have found out then if they were stingy.

Look for a warmer house. Sure, you have put money into the current one, but it may be time to cut your losses, and see if you can get a better insulated house at possibly the same or cheaper rent.

iverjohnston

it Will cost on average, 500 to 600 per window to put in double glazing. depending on the number of windows that could be equal to most of a years rent for the landlord. if the frames are in good order, and sound, or better still, teak, you could discuss having double glazed units installed in place of the single panes of glass, and a draft proof strip applied. could be less than a third of the price of the full rip out and replace job. if this was possible you could offer a percentage of the cost in exchange for a guarantee of longer lease. is your house built with block cavity walls?x
there can be serious drafts getting in from the cavity and coming in under the window boards .

Richard Dower

uberalles wrote: »

So if they get a D minus what happens? They are obliged by law to sort it and get it higher by upgrades?

There is no D minus....this isint school :rolleyes:

Richard Dower

She could try getting a profesional in to do proper weather proofing, or try buy some second hand windows and get the LL to pay for the install....or try go half on the new windows with the LL.

I cant she her buying new ones as you say, but she might be open to going half.......

iverjohnston wrote: »

it Will cost on average, 500 to 600 per window to put in double glazing. depending on the number of windows that could be equal to most of a years rent for the landlord. if the frames are in good order, and sound, or better still, teak, you could discuss having double glazed units installed in place of the single panes of glass, and a draft proof strip applied. could be less than a third of the price of the full rip out and replace job. if this was possible you could offer a percentage of the cost in exchange for a guarantee of longer lease. is your house built with block cavity walls?x
there can be serious drafts getting in from the cavity and coming in under the window boards .

Richard Dower

MILF wrote: »

I wasn't saying that in a smart way, I was saying it kind of shocked that maybe after all the years you stay with a landlord, they really would let the house go into such a state where it would be deemed not fit for purpose. If someone is renting somewhere and they keep it in a good condition and treat it as their own house, and just once they need something (granted, it is expensive but long term it is worth the investment), surely they would invest??

I get what you're saying but its a BIG investment/outlay for the LL....she genuinely may not have that kind of money. You're talking three grand at least!

Work some deal, make it worth your while to invest in the windows....a written long term lease or rent reduction etc.

Henry Ford III

As an interim measure see if you can get your ll to agree to fit proper draft excluders, thermal blinds, and heavy curtains?

murphaph

iverjohnston wrote: »

there can be serious drafts getting in from the cavity and coming in under the window boards .

This shouldn't be understated. The amount of houses in Ireland that are plain draughty is crazy. many are even fairly well insulated, but the draughts get by the insulation and nullify its effects completely.

djimi

murphaph wrote: »

Something like that would be fairly common in Germany. My partner's sister and her partner recently agreed to a rent increase for a new kitchen. The alternative was to buy it themselves.

In Germany if the tenant paid for the kitchen themselves then they would probably bring it with them when they moved out...

To be honest there is no way that I would be agreeing to split the cost of this; its not your property, you will get little long term benefit from it and the reality is that you could be asked to leave in the not too distant future and you will see none of that money back. If the property is not up to scratch and the landlord cant/is not willing to spend money on sorting it out then move to somewhere better.

EricPraline

djimi wrote: »

To be honest there is no way that I would be agreeing to split the cost of this; its not your property, you will get little long term benefit from it and the reality is that you could be asked to leave in the not too distant future and you will see none of that money back.

Agreed. A tenant putting their own money into improving a rented property is pointless in Ireland, particularly for a big ticket item such as replacing windows. Even if the LL has the best of intentions, any sudden change due to finances or health may mean the property could go for sale - and the benefit of any upgrade will go to the owner, while the OP will have nothing to show for it.

OP it's worth having a reasoned discussion of the situation with the LL. You can emphasise that you're a long-term tenant, but that you may have to move due to rising energy costs and the inefficiency of the property. You can point out that any future tenants will have the same concerns. But if the LL won't or can't make these improvements, you'll either have to put up or look at moving elsewhere.

Ray Palmer

Anything can be negotiated. The LL can get tax back on the work over a number of years. In theory you could negotiate cheaper rent if you pay part of the money or even arrange a loan to the LL from you to do the work which is paid back through rent.

It really depends on how much you want to stay and how agreeable the LL is.

I wouldn't want to do it myself.

Personally it annoys me that LLs don't keep their property up to date. It effects the local residents, the area, tenants and the overall investment in the property.

A few years ago the insulation grant was amazingly good value for LLs especially if the building had more than one rental in it. It was cheaper to insulated a 3 story Georgian house rented out than a 3 bed semi for yourself. And I mean 50% cheaper.

Of course after the work one of the tenants still asked for a rent drop because their circumstances changed :rolleyes: She was lucky I didn't increase the rent considering she got a new bathroom, kitchen, windows and super insulated.

The_Conductor

A landlord can claim 'repairs' as a tax deductible expense, but not an upgrade to the property, such as the installation of double glazed windows. Repairs are deemed to be remedial work and or parts as necessary to restore an asset to its original state.

Fixtures and Fittings- such as carpets/central heating system (yes, central heating is included) / cookers/ hoover/ light kitchen white goods (incl. washing machine etc) would all be tax deductible (over 5 years, on a flat line deduction basis). This is why tenants don't replace carpets/white goods/electricals etc- why bother- when its a tax deductible expense for the landlord?

OP- talk to your landlord. They are under no obligation to assist with this. Its possible there may be grants available (SEI or other) to assist with the cost. The landlord isn't going to get a tax credit here though- its a straight hit in the pocket- mind you, it would mean the house would be more attractive to potential renters, so they should be able to charge a higher rent.

Ray Palmer

The_Conductor wrote: »

A landlord can claim 'repairs' as a tax deductible expense, but not an upgrade to the property, such as the installation of double glazed windows. Repairs are deemed to be remedial work and or parts as necessary to restore an asset to its original state.

.

Not what my accountant says and I have been audit since so the tax man agrees. Replacement of windows with double glazing wasn't seen as an upgrade. Insulation was also seen as a valid deduction. Are you sure it is only valid if it is a repair?

I don't think it is like for like repair. It would actually be difficult to do in some cases and could be much more expensive.

The_Conductor

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Not what my accountant says and I have been audit since so the tax man agrees. Replacement of windows with double glazing wasn't seen as an upgrade. Insulation was also seen as a valid deduction. Are you sure it is only valid if it is a repair?

I don't think it is like for like repair. It would actually be difficult to do in some cases and could be much more expensive.

According to my accountant.......
And ditto- I've gotten through an audit, unscathed.
My accountant says that repairs are defined as restoring the asset to its original state.

If I went to a different accountant- perhaps they'd say something different again. Revenue also don't seem to be consistent with their rules or how they apply them either (have a look over on Propertypin- they used have a few interesting stories)

Pawwed Rig

Insulation definitely is not deductible as it is a capital expense. I would be sceptical whether windows could be deducted but can see an argument for and against. I would be surprised if they could be tbh.

Ray Palmer

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Insulation definitely is not deductible as it is a capital expense. I would be sceptical whether windows could be deducted but can see an argument for and against. I would be surprised if they could be tbh.

Taxman said otherwise

The_Conductor

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Taxman said otherwise

And totally opposite here.
It would appear Revenue are not being consistent.

ted1

The_Conductor wrote: »

A landlord can claim 'repairs' as a tax deductible expense, but not an upgrade to the property, such as the installation of double glazed windows. Repairs are deemed to be remedial work and or parts as necessary to restore an asset to its original state.

Fixtures and Fittings- such as carpets/central heating system (yes, central heating is included) / cookers/ hoover/ light kitchen white goods (incl. washing machine etc) would all be tax deductible (over 5 years, on a flat line deduction basis). This is why tenants don't replace carpets/white goods/electricals etc- why bother- when its a tax deductible expense for the landlord?

OP- talk to your landlord. They are under no obligation to assist with this. Its possible there may be grants available (SEI or other) to assist with the cost. The landlord isn't going to get a tax credit here though- its a straight hit in the pocket- mind you, it would mean the house would be more attractive to potential renters, so they should be able to charge a higher rent.

I was audited recently and the Revenue let me claim the windows I put in as a legitimate expense for the year they were put in.

So I'm pretty confident that its allowed be used as a deduction. I was audited going back 6 years and managed to pay zero tax as I had enough dedictions. Pretty sure they were pusses off with me and would have enjoyed not letting me claim the windows if I could

murphaph

The windows would be allowed as a capital expense and thus depreciated over 8 years until their book value is nil. So, windows cost say 8k, you deduct 1k a year from your gross rent (as well as any other deductions you have) when calculating your taxable income.

ted1

They let me claim the full cost in the year they were put in.

The_Conductor

They seem to be handling it in a different way with everybody here. It would be nice if there was some consistent way of dealing with items like this- it seems to be a roll of the dice, which is plain unfair.

Pawwed Rig

From http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it70.html#section7
(edited slightly by me)

Wear and tear allowances are available in respect of capital expenditure incurred on fixtures and fittings (for example, furniture, kitchen appliances, etc) provided by a Landlord for the purposes of furnishing rented residential accommodation.


What Expenditure Cannot Be Deducted?

The following are examples of expenditure you may not deduct when computing your rental income or losses:

• expenses incurred prior to the date on which the premises was first let apart from auctioneer’s letting fees, advertising fees and legal expenses incurred on first lettings,
• Expenditure incurred between lettings in certain circumstances,
• Capital expenditure incurred on additions, alterations or improvements to the premises unless allowable under an incentive scheme or incurred on fixtures and fittings,
• NPPR

Now we can argue whether or not upgrading your windows is an improvement to a premises. I think it would definitely be an improvement in the OPs case (a desperate attempt to stay on topic;)) but to add something like wall insulation that was not present before and can therefore not be considered a replacement would be stretching the issue. Having said that, the above is as clear as the legislation gets and is therefore open to interpretation.

I will hunt about a bit more and see if I get a more definitive answer.

Mustard1972

I dont think your landlord would go for the "I'll sign a long lease if you change the windows for me" deal.
A lease means nothing in Ireland as far a guaranteeing a tenant will stay for the length of the lease.
Threads here about tenants skipping on leases all the time and what happens about it? Nothing.

Immaculata

MILF wrote: »

Is anyone able to tell me if she is obliged to replace these windows or do we have any leg to stand on? Our heating bills are massive in the winter and I don't want to have to go through another winter like that!

Your LL isn't obliged to replace the windows. If the size of the heating bills is too much for you (understandably), I'd say your options are to attempt again to negotiate with your LL; to buy thermal curtains; or to move house.

I realise you're a tenant in good standing, but it maybe that your LL simply can't afford to replace the windows, even if she'd like to.