Kids Can't Use Computers

Torqay

... and this is why it should worry you.

Man's got a point.

A Primal Nut

He has a point, although I still think young people are better at it than old people.

Actually I think my generation had the best opporuntunities. We were old enough to be around to use computers when they first became popular and still required plenty of messing around with; but at the same time young enough that we were kids and teenagers and had time and the interest to mess around with it.

One example is a wrestling e-fed website I created when I was 15 - young enough to want to do it and have the time to do it (I worked on it over one summer), but old enough to have had to learn html and bits of javascript to get it working in geocities as the graphical website builders were really bad and limited - was quite proud of it at the time .

Created another website recently with a web hosting company and now it's so easy by comparison.

aN.Droid

A Primal Nut wrote: »

He has a point, although I still think young people are better at it than old people.

Actually I think my generation had the best opporuntunities. We were old enough to be around to use computers when they first became popular and still required plenty of messing around with; but at the same time young enough that we were kids and teenagers and had time and the interest to mess around with it.

One example is a wrestling e-fed website I created when I was 15 - young enough to want to do it and have the time to do it (I worked on it over one summer), but old enough to have had to learn html and bits of javascript to get it working in geocities as the graphical website builders were really bad and limited - was quite proud of it at the time .

Created another website recently with a web hosting company and now it's so easy by comparison.

Allot of web hosting companies would have sitebuilders and such but that doesn't mean all things are easier now. Since the advent of server side scripting websites have become a million times more complicated but it is worth it the get the content rich experience you can achieve. Popular ones being PHP and ASP.

I think your response is actually a typical one of what this guy is trying to get across. People will opt for the easy route be that using a WYSIWYG editor or calling a friend to reinstall your OS because they don't know any better.

It should be harder than it is to do things. It would lead to a higher percentage of the population with a better IT skillset which would lead to greater content being created.

Not trying to attack you or your post Primal just thought your post was complementary to the blog post.

demanufactured

It's true.

FouxDaFaFa

Yeah, I read this a while ago and *kind* of agreed with it but felt his argument was weak in points.

He says himself that he's a car driver but he knows nothing about mechanics or fixing cars. For a lot of people, all they need to know is how to use software (for their jobs or otherwise). Yet he criticises them for not being able to take apart their computers. For some people, it's just not necessary.

The gist of it though, is true. A lot of people encounter the smallest problem and the issue is not that they don't know how to fix it, it's that they won't even try to find it out for themselves.

A lot of my so-called knowledge of computers involves googling for solutions to problems.

Khannie

I saw that article on reddit and in general agree with it.

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

A lot of my so-called knowledge of computers involves googling for solutions to problems.

Agreed. GROSS GENERALISATION ALERT! Most people facing basic computer problems are both lazy and seemingly incapable of following instructions.

BloodBath

Most people using google don't know how to search properly for those kind of solutions. Basic keyword training required

A Primal Nut

Limericks wrote: »

Allot of web hosting companies would have sitebuilders and such but that doesn't mean all things are easier now. Since the advent of server side scripting websites have become a million times more complicated but it is worth it the get the content rich experience you can achieve. Popular ones being PHP and ASP.

I think your response is actually a typical one of what this guy is trying to get across. People will opt for the easy route be that using a WYSIWYG editor or calling a friend to reinstall your OS because they don't know any better.

It should be harder than it is to do things. It would lead to a higher percentage of the population with a better IT skillset which would lead to greater content being created.

Not trying to attack you or your post Primal just thought your post was complementary to the blog post.

Maybe you misunderstood my post but that's the point I was making. Back when i first made a website I needed to learn html, javascript, etc because there was no other way; whereas now it's easy to make a relatively nice looking website which in turn means people look for the easy route.

aN.Droid

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Maybe you misunderstood my post but that's the point I was making. Back when i first made a website I needed to learn html, javascript, etc because there was no other way; whereas now it's easy to make a relatively nice looking website which in turn means people look for the easy route.

No that is exactly what I was saying. Sites are still html it is just you have options now other than learning the language by using a sitebuilder or a cms software. In the end of the day what you see on your browser is nothing but html, images and other client side scripts. Nothing has changed on how a site is built in the raw terms of it. It is just now there is no point is most learning how to correctly build a website when they can just use one of these softwares.

This is akin to the blog post and the majority view that most teens are masters at anything computers. When infact they can just take the easy route by just using youtube/facebook etc. They are missing 99% of the experience by just doing these little things like someone who would make a website using a site builder.

Now do not get me wrong there is nothing wrong with using site builders but when you don't do it from scratch you don't learn the language and cannot debug problems so will be forced to outsource help, like the teacher in the blog post.

Again not trying to attack you or your posts and I am not aiming this at you either. You just brought up the point of how much easier it is nowadays which it is and in turn makes it so people cannot debug their own problems.

Overheal

Before MySpace, kids went on Angelfire and built their own page using HTML

As for my vehicle, the dealership doesn't even provide a dipstick, and marked the oil cap "Dealer Access Only"

That article almost makes my job seem unethical. Sure enough though, people are afraid to do it themselves and they'll pay for it. Before I got this job I looked at the prices this place charges to do simple tasks like Software install ($30) or Hardware install ($50 per component) and realized its a stupidity-motivation paywall. Sure I could sit there and do something for you, I could even teach everyone who walks in how to do this and that and the other thing, but all of it takes time and energy and for ****s sake you could just look it up online (if you know how to look it up online) and if we don't do it you'll find someone else to do it, you'll rope your poor nephew into it who will try to spend three days fixing your PC, download the windows software for you again, rebuild the OS, put new AV on it, only to have your stupid little munchkin fill it back up with the same viruses by the end of the week. And I didn't get paid for that, though I was well endowed with sweet tea.

Mr. G

He has a point.

I think (as does most of us) that there should be ICT as a subject at Leaving Cert. Its all well and saying that kids should do a science and all those other subjects, but ICT is something that applies to everyone and is incredably useful knowing the ins and outs of things, knowing how they work, networking setup and troubleshooting, how to build a PC from scratch, defeating viruses and malware and understanding why that saying "the school server is down" is wrong etc., and not just being able to use Word, Facebook and Pinterest. At least the uk have an ICT subject. We don't.

A Primal Nut

Limericks wrote: »

No that is exactly what I was saying. Sites are still html it is just you have options now other than learning the language by using a sitebuilder or a cms software. In the end of the day what you see on your browser is nothing but html, images and other client side scripts. Nothing has changed on how a site is built in the raw terms of it. It is just now there is no point is most learning how to correctly build a website when they can just use one of these softwares.

Exactly.

Dude111

A Primal Nut wrote:

He has a point, although I still think young people are better at it than old people.

Yes this I am also thinking!!


He does list valid points though!!

Cabaal

He makes valid points,

To most people these days if you can use a tablet you "know" about computers, when in reality a tablet is the easiest thing in the world to use.

Peregrine

As a teenager, I completely agree.

In a class of 30 you'll probably get 3 or 4 students that knows how to use a computer beyond facebook and YouTube and maybe 1 programmer. Most of them think owning an iPhone 5 is what makes you a tech pro. I've been asked to 'fix the internet' on iPhones before(key in the WPA password) and when they see I'm not an iPhone user, they'll tell me it's complicated and insist on showing me where the 'Settings' menu is - a monkey can use it.

Teachers are just as bad. Out of 25-30 teachers, there's probably 2 that can actually use a computer properly. The set up in every classroom is a simple desktop running 7 connected to a monitor and a projector using a VGA splitter and a 3.5mm connector for audio. The amount of teachers who bring their laptops in to display a slideshow/play a movie or whatever, look at the set up and just give up and ask one of the 'smart students' to set it up is just sad. And then one of the 'techy kids' step in with his iPhone and Beats headphones, who is equally useless.

shleedance

Technology has been aimed at simplicity for a while now, so it's not surprising.

I think the likes of the Raspberry Pi is a good move to teach kids programming and how computers work. The problem is however is whether the education system here will pick up on its importance.

I also notice a lot of young people are not media savvy, and post all sorts of really stupid crap on the likes of Facebook that can harm their future careers (think of tweets revealed from particular girls joining the UK police for example) and believe anything they read without checking up on it. Education on that is quite important, in my opinion.

bpmurray

Clearly that writer has never been to a CoderDojo session - that would immediately negate his claims.

The reality is that consumers of computing, like drivers of cars, have very little understanding of the technology. The enthusiasts have a much better grasp and professionals are better again. He's expecting car drivers to not park on yellow lines, speed, etc., but that's not the real world; similarly users will disable firewalls and virus protection and won't fill the washer bottle or check the oil. Enthusiasts will put on low profile tyres, tune the engine, replace carburetors and lights, etc. just as they'll install IDEs and develop web sites and mobile apps.

So his article correctly points out that consumers have little understanding of their computer, but incorrectly singles out kids.

shleedance

This is talking about even basic computer maintenance though, ie. reinstalling the OS and so forth. Most people should be able to do that. No one's expecting everyone to be computer geniuses, but I would expect a higher degree of computer literacy.

BloodBath

Computer science is such a massive field that there should be a secondary school subject dedicated to it at this stage.

**** sake you have woodwork and tech graphics or whatever they call it these days. Home economics? How is that even a subject.

shleedance

Home ec is useful for cookery skills. Woodwork has helped me too!

BloodBath

I'm not slating them. If you want to do carpentry or become a chef they are good subjects but the computer industry is massive and far bigger than both of them.

They have dedicated subjects. Why doesn't computer science?

kippy

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

Yeah, I read this a while ago and *kind* of agreed with it but felt his argument was weak in points.

He says himself that he's a car driver but he knows nothing about mechanics or fixing cars. For a lot of people, all they need to know is how to use software (for their jobs or otherwise). Yet he criticises them for not being able to take apart their computers. For some people, it's just not necessary.

The gist of it though, is true. A lot of people encounter the smallest problem and the issue is not that they don't know how to fix it, it's that they won't even try to find it out for themselves.

A lot of my so-called knowledge of computers involves googling for solutions to problems.

I'd be off the opinion that there are a lot of us that use this particular forum who wouldn't have jobs were it not for the people this guy is talking about in his article.
Almost every one of his examples are mirrored for me on a regular basis.
And I always ask myself, why dont these people spend a bit of time researching how to fix and sort out these issues - generally because they:
1. Dont have the time.
2. Have someone there onsite to fix it for them.

As I said, I am glad there are plenty people around like that, young or old.

shleedance

BloodBath wrote: »

I'm not slating them. If you want to do carpentry or become a chef they are good subjects but the computer industry is massive and far bigger than both of them.

They're still quite useful life skills. Not everything has to be driven towards getting a career. Same with computers. :rolleyes:

BloodBath

No need to take offence. I'm not saying they aren't. My point was that they have dedicated subjects while computer science to my knowledge doesn't. Computer science is a far bigger field than both of them. People should at least have the choice to do it as a secondary level subject if they want to.

I did woodworking and I have barely ever used the skills I learned since. I don't have the tools or the workspace to do anything with it. Computer science is far more useful.

kippy

BloodBath wrote: »

No need to take offence. I'm not saying they aren't. My point was that they have dedicated subjects while computer science to my knowledge doesn't. Computer science is a far bigger field than both of them. People should at least have the choice to do it as a secondary level subject if they want to.

I did woodworking and I have barely ever used the skills I learned since. I don't have the tools or the workspace to do anything with it. Computer science is far more useful.

Is it?
That depends on your standpoint and what you need, indeed it also depends on what you were taught in computer science and the other two areas....
I've used the skills and knowledge I attained in "Metalwork (or engineering as it is called now)", Carpentary and Mech Drawing, an awful lot in my daily life, which has saved me considerable money down the years. Mostly in relation to cars, bits and pieces around the house and generaly skills that are hard to pick up in something such as computer science.

The best skills I have picked up in relation to computers have come from self directed learning, youtube, research as required and part time courses, experience in the job.
Very little skill of use came for any area of third level education, if I am being honest.
Maybe that's just me and the field I am in

BloodBath

I'm not saying remove the other subjects. I'm saying computer science should be added as it is a massive field that is growing yearly. Students should have the option to do this at a secondary level if they wish to. A secondary level computer science course could involve a basic introduction to how computers work and an introduction to programming and networking.

I did engineering, mech drawing and woodwork as well but if there had been a computer science option I would have done it. I have not used mech drawing since and only small things involving engineering and woodwork. They aren't careers I pursued and their value in every day life is limited.

The point of these subjects is not to make your everyday life easier. It's to pursue a career. Secondary school gives you the opportunity to try many different subjects and find something you like. You can't do them all but you should at least have the choice to do what you are interested in.

kippy

BloodBath wrote: »

The point of these subjects is not to make your everyday life easier. It's to pursue a career. Secondary school gives you the opportunity to try many different subjects and find something you like. You can't do them all but you should at least have the choice to do what you are interested in.

I dont disagree that there shouldn't be some basic computing on the secondary level curriculum (perhaps basic programming concepts, basics of A+ and Network + etc).
However there is a point within some subjects to make your everyday life easier, whether that be in pursuing a career or applying them to your life outside of a career.

Mr. G

BloodBath wrote: »

I'm not slating them. If you want to do carpentry or become a chef they are good subjects but the computer industry is massive and far bigger than both of them.

They have dedicated subjects. Why doesn't computer science?

Because most teachers aren't very technical, they think putting computers in classrooms and using computers in class will do the same thing as an ICT subject. You would come across 2 maybe 3 teachers, usually teaching science or maths that can use a computer.

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

As a teenager, I completely agree.

In a class of 30 you'll probably get 3 or 4 students that knows how to use a computer beyond facebook and YouTube and maybe 1 programmer. Most of them think owning an iPhone 5 is what makes you a tech pro. I've been asked to 'fix the internet' on iPhones before(key in the WPA password) and when they see I'm not an iPhone user, they'll tell me it's complicated and insist on showing me where the 'Settings' menu is - a monkey can use it.

Teachers are just as bad. Out of 25-30 teachers, there's probably 2 that can actually use a computer properly. The set up in every classroom is a simple desktop running 7 connected to a monitor and a projector using a VGA splitter and a 3.5mm connector for audio. The amount of teachers who bring their laptops in to display a slideshow/play a movie or whatever, look at the set up and just give up and ask one of the 'smart students' to set it up is just sad. And then one of the 'techy kids' step in with his iPhone and Beats headphones, who is equally useless.

You're right. Probably out of a school of say 500 students you'll find a maximum 5 if you're lucky that know about building a computer, reinstall operating systems, windows server, computer domains and networking.

I remember being asked by a teacher to fix a laptop that was not working with the projector, it was "repaired" by the IT guy who just reinstalled windows. All that was wrong was the driver wasn't installed. I've been asked loads of times why a computer won't go past the login screen simply because the network cable was pulled out. I could go on.

Ironically Information Technology is blocked on the web filter so I used one of the teachers' logins. IT should not be blocked, it should be encouraged.

BloodBath

I don't see the problem. Get new teachers that are competent and educated in that field. I'd be willing to bet that computer science would be more popular than the traditional science subjects of physics, biology and chemistry.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

Overheal

I remember my CAD class was a joke too. The program was grand and all and some of the projects we did were interesting but they alotted like 4x more time than you actually needed to accomodate for stupid I guess. I always completed the assignments in 30 minutes, and we were always scheduled over 2 hours

Mr. G

jacksie66 wrote: »

My parents and mates think I'm a computer genius. Im a 26 year old plumber and everything I know about computers is self thought. I can build my own pc from scratch, install/reinstall software, and all the usual stuff. When I was in school, computer class consisted of ms paint and fecking clip art. When doing my plumbing trade we had computer classes to learn CAD. Most lads in my class couldnt even turn the thing on while was rooting through the computer or getting around the internet block. I love messing with phones aswell. Rooting, flashing and bolloxing around. Point is, im always shocked by how many of my mates are computer illiterate...

I know what you mean.

I think it would be a good idea to have an ICT curriculum in Transition Year to test the waters first.

Every student should have a taste of linux distributions, and see what they are like in my opinion

I started off using 56k dial up (those were the days when you had to hangup the phone to use the internet, and you couldn't be on it too long or you'd be crucified!). Now we have broadband, most people have access to it which is all the more reason why IT should be encouraged.

Mr. G

Overheal wrote: »

I remember my CAD class was a joke too. The program was grand and all and some of the projects we did were interesting but they alotted like 4x more time than you actually needed to accomodate for stupid I guess. I always completed the assignments in 30 minutes, and we were always scheduled over 2 hours

Our CAD class was a joke thinking back on it. I ended up doing home economics instead of tech graphics because I got bored so much. I think it was Solid Works was the name of the software we used. It was an absolute joke how the class was run. Most took the piss in the class, teacher had no control, and as you said I had assignments done quicker then estimated. I think a lot of the tech graphics classes are like that though.