Is you're life random or scripted?

kneemos

Is there any evidence that the course of you're life is preordained rather than random?thought I heard some scientists were leaning in the preordained direction.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

sorry

but


*your

shopaholic01

If mine is scripted, I need a new script writer.

SimonTemplar

If it is scripted, there is a grammar mistake in your script.

Celly Smunt

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

sorry

but


*your

BOOM! INFRACTION!

keith16

My life has been extraordinary
Blessed and cursed and won
Time heals but I'm forever broken
By and by the way...
Have you ever heard the words
I'm singing in these songs?
It's for the girl I've loved all along
Can a taste of love be so wrong?

candy-gal1

Its random imho, but I do believe that there is a certain way your life is planned to go from the universe or what have you, its just up to you if you stay straight on that path or go off randomly in loads of directions but eventually come back to your path, just life imho

Celly Smunt

shopaholic01 wrote: »

If mine is scripted, I need a new script writer.

Maybe I just haven't been added to the script yet...baby.

wazky

Destined for greatness by Our Lord Jesus Christ himself.

SilverScreen

Life is a random series of events triggered by a random series of events triggered by a random series of events triggered by a...

Also, no move in life is the wrong move.

mattjack

When I was in school we used sniff any chemicals we found in the science labs along with tippex and those big permanent markers , anyway one the doughnuts in my class kinda got a penchant for sniffing stuff and used take smalls jars and beakers home to sniff , eventually he ended up strung out on heroin.

So yes, his life was scripted where mine was random.

Mariasofia

The fella that wrote my script was on the wacky tobacky Id say.......

the back of beyond

I once turned down the opportunity to buy a motorcycle which was identical to the one I eventually ended up buying 3 years later through pure chance.

So yes, it is completely random.

kneemos

mattjack wrote: »

When I was in school we used sniff any chemicals we found in the science labs along with tippex and those big permanent markers , anyway one the doughnuts in my class kinda got a penchant for sniffing stuff and used take smalls jars and beakers home to sniff , eventually he ended up strung out on heroin.

So yes, his life was scripted where mine was random.

So if that guys life was scripted can he be held responsible for his actions?

The_Valeyard

I hope its not scripted, kinda makes most things meaningless and less fun

Chareth Cutestory

I sure as hell hope the course of my life has been preordained so far, otherwise I've no one to blame but myself as to why I'm completely failing at it :eek:

mattjack

kneemos wrote: »

So if that guys life was scripted can he be held responsible for his actions?

Light hearted thread....I dunno , probally. He's clean years now and happily married .

The_Valeyard

mattjack wrote: »

Light hearted thread....I dunno , probally. He's clean years now and happily married .

Yeah that suddenly got bit serious....but interesting question though..

rustedtrumpet

SilverScreen wrote: »

Life is a random series of events triggered by a random series of events triggered by a random series of events triggered by a...

Also, no move in life is the wrong move.

Fractal Life

Magnetics

Scripted? No

But genetics and your brain chemistry push you onto a certain track

smash

My life is like dumb and dumber meets requiem for a dream!

Shenshen

kneemos wrote: »

Is there any evidence that the course of you're life is preordained rather than random?thought I heard some scientists were leaning in the preordained direction.

I'm curious... what scientists are we talking about?

It's completely and utterly random.

Geomy

My life is totally random, I come and go as I please, I don't do that sheep mentality thing.

I find it hard to conform to any latest trends or following the crowd.

I do pay my bills and look after my son and other family commitments, but being a happily single guy in his late 30s my lifestyle is very adventurous :-)

kneemos

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm curious... what scientists are we talking about?

It's completely and utterly random.

It's not completely random you're controlled to a large extent by your enviroment,someone from a poor backround probably won't become a doctor or a pilot for example.
It's curious to think how much your circumstances control you or vica versa and how responsible you are for your actions if you have no control over your destiny.

seamus

Classic physics tells us that everything has a cause and effect, which means that in essence everything is on a set unalterable course - the chemicals in your brain, which make you act the way you do, have been set in motion and you cannot willfully alter that. If you do wilfully alter that, then that was already supposed to happen, so you didn't alter it all.

However we do know now the classic physics only holds true when dealing with objects at our own size. Once you get down to the atomic level or up to the planetary size, classic physics becomes less accurate and the rules it prescribes don't hold quite so true.

For example, one of the laws we take for granted is that you cannot create or destroy energy, only change its form. But then we discovered that matter literally pops in and out of existence, seemingly at random*. At the quantum level, the behaviour of particles is unpredictable, in many cases the particles can effectively exists in multiple places at once (for the purposes of calculations), meaning that you cannot say for certain what they will do next.

What this means overall is that if you were to know the position of every object in the universe right now, you could probably make a relatively accurate prediction in terms of what it will look like in 100 years, to within say 99.99% accuracy. That accuracy will diminish the further forward you try to predict as the number of possible variables increases (probably exponentially, a physicist would know).

So the answer to the question is that for all intents and purposes your life is pre-ordained, but the course of existence itself is not.

Keith300

keith16 wrote: »

My life has been extraordinary
Blessed and cursed and won
Time heals but I'm forever broken
By and by the way...
Have you ever heard the words
I'm singing in these songs?
It's for the girl I've loved all along
Can a taste of love be so wrong?

That's lovely Keith.

Keith300

seamus wrote: »

Classic physics tells us that everything has a cause and effect, which means that in essence everything is on a set unalterable course - the chemicals in your brain, which make you act the way you do, have been set in motion and you cannot willfully alter that. If you do wilfully alter that, then that was already supposed to happen, so you didn't alter it all.

However we do know now the classic physics only holds true when dealing with objects at our own size. Once you get down to the atomic level or up to the planetary size, classic physics becomes less accurate and the rules it prescribes don't hold quite so true.

For example, one of the laws we take for granted is that you cannot create or destroy energy, only change its form. But then we discovered that matter literally pops in and out of existence, seemingly at random*. At the quantum level, the behaviour of particles is unpredictable, in many cases the particles can effectively exists in multiple places at once (for the purposes of calculations), meaning that you cannot say for certain what they will do next.

What this means overall is that if you were to know the position of every object in the universe right now, you could probably make a relatively accurate prediction in terms of what it will look like in 100 years, to within say 99.99% accuracy. That accuracy will diminish the further forward you try to predict as the number of possible variables increases (probably exponentially, a physicist would know).

So the answer to the question is that for all intents and purposes your life is pre-ordained, but the course of existence itself is not.

Most smart people come to this conclusion eventually.

Tiddlypeeps

I don't think there is such a thing as true random, only the perception of randomness. Everything can be predicted, the only thing that stops us is not having access or awareness of all the variables involved.

If we had the tools to accurately map somebodies brain, and a computer powerful enough to run the simulation, we could very accurately predict the actions of a person in a controlled environment.

Shenshen

kneemos wrote: »

It's not completely random you're controlled to a large extent by your enviroment,someone from a poor backround probably won't become a doctor or a pilot for example.
It's curious to think how much your circumstances control you or vica versa and how responsible you are for your actions if you have no control over your destiny.

And you think these environmental factors aren't random? That I had some sort of control over where and when I was born?

All I have control over is how I react to the randomness I'm faced with in my life.

Czarcasm

seamus wrote: »

Classic physics tells us that everything has a cause and effect, which means that in essence everything is on a set unalterable course - the chemicals in your brain, which make you act the way you do, have been set in motion and you cannot willfully alter that. If you do wilfully alter that, then that was already supposed to happen, so you didn't alter it all.

However we do know now the classic physics only holds true when dealing with objects at our own size. Once you get down to the atomic level or up to the planetary size, classic physics becomes less accurate and the rules it prescribes don't hold quite so true.

For example, one of the laws we take for granted is that you cannot create or destroy energy, only change its form. But then we discovered that matter literally pops in and out of existence, seemingly at random*. At the quantum level, the behaviour of particles is unpredictable, in many cases the particles can effectively exists in multiple places at once (for the purposes of calculations), meaning that you cannot say for certain what they will do next.

What this means overall is that if you were to know the position of every object in the universe right now, you could probably make a relatively accurate prediction in terms of what it will look like in 100 years, to within say 99.99% accuracy. That accuracy will diminish the further forward you try to predict as the number of possible variables increases (probably exponentially, a physicist would know).

So the answer to the question is that for all intents and purposes your life is pre-ordained, but the course of existence itself is not.

I hadn't expected to get a hard on reading that, but there you go- an example of a random external control over our physical self.

I think some people will choose to exercise their free will more than others, and overcome the challenges presented by external controls over their physical selves, so in that respect at least, yes, an individual has control over their own life.

There's always ways around everything, it just takes enough determination to examine the alternatives.

herisson

Random, definitely random.

If it was scripted, whoever wrote it is a prick.

Keith300

Czarcasm wrote: »

I hadn't expected to get a hard on reading that, but there you go- an example of a random external control over our physical self.

I think some people will choose to exercise their free will more than others, and overcome the challenges presented by external controls over their physical selves, so in that respect at least, yes, an individual has control over their own life.

There's always ways around everything, it just takes enough determination to examine the alternatives.

I think you missed the point of his post. In essence, free will is an illusion. We are essentially an extremely complex line of dominos, the course we are on can't be changed. If you think you changed it all you did was stick to the course.

kneemos

Keith300 wrote: »

I think you missed the point of his post. In essence, free will is an illusion. We are essentially an extremely complex line of dominos, the course we are on can't be changed. If you think you changed it all you did was stick to the course.

What about external influences then?Say somebody invents a cure for your heart condition how could that be included in the line of dominoes.

sbsquarepants

The general consensus (afaik) is that there is no such thing as a universal moment called "now" Each person experiences a different now, depending on how they are moving relative to each other. Some peoples now is my past, others my future - the diffferences are too small to notice in everyday life but they are there. (And have been verified by experiment, ie the 2 atomic clocks experiment) For someone to experience my future as their now, my future must already exist before i experience it - therefore it's predetermined.
By the way, i have trouble believing this stuff myself, but the science seems to suggest it's right!
Google, the illusion of time and the block universe theory.

Czarcasm

Keith300 wrote: »

I think you missed the point of his post. In essence, free will is an illusion. We are essentially an extremely complex line of dominos, the course we are on can't be changed. If you think you changed it all you did was stick to the course.

Ohh no, I didn't miss the point of seamus' post, in fact it was that it was so eloquently phrased that had me... well, yeah, but no I agree with seamus in that the bigger the picture, the harder it is to spot the changes, like those sub atomic particles that appear to be appearing at random (we just haven't found an explanation for WHY they appear yet IMO - anything humans can't explain "random, or aliens"), we wouldn't notice them normally, but in our own lives, a lot closer to home, we notice things a lot more apparent.

I hear it said a lot that free will is an illusion. That implies that there is some intended force behind nature (I personally don't think there is!), but the reason why some might see it as an illusion, is because where they see control, I see challenges that a person can overcome when they are determined enough.

Life is about perception, because everyone's "reality" is going to be different depending on how their lens are adjusted.

sbsquarepants

Czarcasm wrote: »

I hear it said a lot that free will is an illusion. That implies that there is some intended force behind nature (I personally don't think there is!), but the reason why some might see it as an illusion, is because where they see control, I see challenges that a person can overcome when they are determined enough.

I came across this thought experiment before.
You meet an all knowing being or computer or something like that. They know every single bit of knowledge in the entire universe and they can therefore use it to predict the future (it's all dominoes after all)
You're determined to prove them wrong, so you set them a simple challenge - predict which hand you'll hold up in the air next.
They make their prediction. Lets say they say right hand.
What is stopping you from raising your left? Does anyone really think it couldn't be done?

Czarcasm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I came across this thought experiment before.
You meet an all knowing being or computer or something like that. They know every single bit of knowledge in the entire universe and they can therefore use it to predict the future (it's all dominoes after all)
You're determined to prove them wrong, so you set them a simple challenge - predict which hand you'll hold up in the air next.
They make their prediction. Lets say they say right hand.
What is stopping you from raising your left? Does anyone really think it couldn't be done?

You're screwed if his name's Derren Brown!

kneemos

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I came across this thought experiment before.
You meet an all knowing being or computer or something like that. They know every single bit of knowledge in the entire universe and they can therefore use it to predict the future (it's all dominoes after all)
You're determined to prove them wrong, so you set them a simple challenge - predict which hand you'll hold up in the air next.
They make their prediction. Lets say they say right hand.
What is stopping you from raising your left? Does anyone really think it couldn't be done?

Oh God.

Pumpkinseeds

Jesus, if my life is scripted I hope it takes a turn for the better, I'm fecking sick of it now. I'd like to try happy, healthy and wealthy for a change.

Tiddlypeeps

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I came across this thought experiment before.
You meet an all knowing being or computer or something like that. They know every single bit of knowledge in the entire universe and they can therefore use it to predict the future (it's all dominoes after all)
You're determined to prove them wrong, so you set them a simple challenge - predict which hand you'll hold up in the air next.
They make their prediction. Lets say they say right hand.
What is stopping you from raising your left? Does anyone really think it couldn't be done?

I can't wrap my head around a simulation that could predict a persons reaction to seeing the output of the simulation. It gets stuck in a loop, the output has to keep feeding back into the input and it would go on forever, I don't think it is possible.

sbsquarepants

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I can't wrap my head around a simulation that could predict a persons reaction to seeing the output of the simulation. It gets stuck in a loop, the output has to keep feeding back into the input and it would go on forever, I don't think it is possible.

I don't think it's possible either. I'm not pitching building this thing to dragons den or anything!:D
It's just meant to get you thinking if everything is all just very complicated dominoes, or there is in fact free will. Is every action dependent on a string of preceeding actions, or can you begin a whole new chain at will.

Czarcasm

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I can't wrap my head around a simulation that could predict a persons reaction to seeing the output of the simulation. It gets stuck in a loop, the output has to keep feeding back into the input and it would go on forever, I don't think it is possible.

It's a concept they use in Artificial Intelligence programming all the time, but even AI is a closed system. Probably the example most people are familiar with is "Big Blue", the IBM computer that beat Kasparov (Grand Master chess player at the time, best in the world basically). Any game of chess, because it's 32 pieces with limited scope of movement and promotion, on a 64 square board, will have a predictable outcome of permutations. Computers are great at analysing pattern based prediction, but not so good at coping when something goes wrong (it's been suggested since that a computer glitch was how BB actually won the game, which is kinda funny!), so, depending on the variables input into the program, calculating the outcome of a given scenario will be easier to determine- the more variables, the more data the program can predict more accurately (Remember how a glitch helped the computer win? That wasn't supposed to happen, but fortunately for IBM it did!).

So basically how that relates to your example is- if something changes in the input that the original design was never intended to handle, the program is working with a new set of data that it doesn't know how to handle, so the output can change dramatically, or not at all, depending on how much of an influence this new input of data has on the programs calculations.

Keith300

kneemos wrote: »

What about external influences then?Say somebody invents a cure for your heart condition how could that be included in the line of dominoes.

That's part if the overall set of domino noes. Someone was always going to cure your heart condition.

diomed

Limited by the womb lottery. If you are born poor it is unlikely you will end up at the top levels of society.

readyletsgo

kneemos wrote: »

Is there any evidence that the course of you're life is preordained rather than random?thought I heard some scientists were leaning in the preordained direction.

I have no idea why this annoys me so much but as Ross says to Racheal in Friends....

You're is YOU ARE!
Your is YOUR!

Example: Is your life random or scripted?

Argh.

Phew

mitosis

kneemos wrote: »

Is there any evidence that the course of you're life is preordained rather than random?thought I heard some scientists were leaning in the preordained direction.

Certainly reads as random.

Shenshen

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I came across this thought experiment before.
You meet an all knowing being or computer or something like that. They know every single bit of knowledge in the entire universe and they can therefore use it to predict the future (it's all dominoes after all)
You're determined to prove them wrong, so you set them a simple challenge - predict which hand you'll hold up in the air next.
They make their prediction. Lets say they say right hand.
What is stopping you from raising your left? Does anyone really think it couldn't be done?

Do you not think this computer/robot/whatever might not have the smarts to say "The other one"?

Czarcasm

diomed wrote: »

Limited by the womb lottery. If you are born poor it is unlikely you will end up at the top levels of society.

And yet, there are the few that do! I don't think it's a lottery, I think it's dependent on how the person views their circumstances and whether they want to change them or not.

Czarcasm

Shenshen wrote: »

Do you not think this computer/robot/whatever might not have the smarts to say "The other one"?

Only if that's a variable that has been programmed in, which requires better input. And that's why computers, as efficient as they are, they're really not very creative, so they'll never be able to surpass humans -

Creativity beats logic hands down every time.

Tiddlypeeps

Czarcasm wrote: »

So basically how that relates to your example is- if something changes in the input that the original design was never intended to handle, the program is working with a new set of data that it doesn't know how to handle, so the output can change dramatically, or not at all, depending on how much of an influence this new input of data has on the programs calculations.

When you feed in the new input, it creates a new output which will then effect the viewers reaction meaning the simulation needs to be fed this new input This goes round and round.

Your example of big blue isn't the really related. A computer deciding it's next move in a chess game works out as many permutations of the possible future moves available and picks the next move based on a weighting which is based on probability. It's guessing, but doing so in a way that covers itself from as many angles as possible. That simulation runs for every turn, in any given turn the input isn't changing so it's not the same.

I don't believe it is possible to have a simulation accurately predict a persons actions when that person is aware of the outcome of the simulation before they act.

If you wanted to compare it to a chess game it would be like big blue telling the opponent what moves it's planning to make and still expecting to accurately predict it's opponents moves.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Only if that's a variable that has been programmed in, which requires better input. And that's why computers, as efficient as they are, they're really not very creative, so they'll never be able to surpass humans -

Creativity beats logic hands down every time.

I disagree with this premiss. Computers have already been programmed to be creative. The only thing missing at the moment is more processing power. A computer program was written that composes music in the style of Mozart, brand new music that wasn't written by the programmer, the computer created it. People who write music do so based on a set of rules they learned mixed with influence from existing music, how is what the computer program does any different?

kneemos

readyletsgo wrote: »

I have no idea why this annoys me so much but as Ross says to Racheal in Friends....

You're is YOU ARE!
Your is YOUR!

Example: Is your life random or scripted?

Argh.

Phew

Only a couple of weeks till school opens and back to work.Hang in there.