Fasten seat belts sign for the captain to take a toilet break.

Pacing Mule

Noticed this last night on a Ryanair flight.

Internal phone call to stewardess was then followed by the fasten seat belt sign going on. We were forced to sit down with a by then crying baby (who had been just about dozing off being rocked whilst standing up) Once we were all sat down cockpit door opens, one of the pilots exits and was replaced by an air hostess in the cockpit. He visits the loo, comes back out, rings in, door opens, swaps with the air hostess and then the lights go back off. Not a hint of turbulence during the time period involved. Very very frustrating at the time but afterwards it got me thinking. Is there a policy / law that all passengers need to be seated before cockpit door opens ? I had thought in fact that it wasn't to open at all post 911 but perhaps regulations have changed.

Locker10a

What u witnessed is the by the book procedure for the the pilot need the loo/ when the flightdeck door needs to be opened inflight! Yes everyone must be seated when the door opens for obvious reasons!

Shamrock231

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

had thought in fact that it wasn't to open at all post 911 but perhaps regulations have changed.

It'd have to open, you couldn't make someone go an entire flight without a trip to the bathroom.

What happens though when the Cabin Crew go into the flight deck to bring them their meals or drink or something like that in other airlines? Everyone have to take their seats, or is it just when a pilot is in the passenger cabin?

basill

Cockpit door security procedures are approved by the regulator and are specific to that particular airline. They do not need to be discussed on an open forum with non airline pilots for obvious reasons.

MuffinsDa

Yeah right, basill. Security through Obscurity works really well as we all know... well done for your clever and non-smug contribution.

"...Security through obscurity has never achieved engineering acceptance as an approach to securing a system,..."

"...It is analogous to a homeowner leaving the rear door open, because it cannot be seen by a would-be burglar."

basill

Would you like the door codes whilst we are at it?

Roger_007

If the captain had a vindaloo for lunch, It would probably be wise to fasten your seat belt!

MuffinsDa

basill wrote: »

Would you like the door codes whilst we are at it?

No thank you. I made my point. I advise you to educate yourself and do some basic reading on security and how it works (Bruce Schneier books and blog would be a good starting point) before pontificating what can and can not be discussed in open forums...

Roger_007

???

basill

Yeah thanks for that insight. I will stick to my ops manuals and fcoms. You stick to the spotting.

MuffinsDa

basill wrote: »

Yeah thanks for that insight. I will stick to my ops manuals and fcoms. You stick to the spotting.

Wow that certainly wins the argument on benefits of security through obscurity...

I rest my case.

IRLConor

MuffinsDa wrote: »

Bruce Schneier books and blog

In fairness, Schneier has been pretty consistent in praising the securing of cockpit doors as one of the few things that changed after September 11th that was actually useful.

As for the security by obscurity argument, that's very often oversimplified. If you rely on the obscurity for your security it's a fault. If you have a well-designed system then obscurity may be an additional benefit. It's not a black and white rule. Discussion of the finer points of when obscurity is and is not valuable is probably best left to the Information Security forum though.

martinsvi

I don't get what OP was so frustrated about? any airline/authority has the right to do certain things to improve security. In USA you can't event stretch your legs even if it's a long haul - they will yell at you - "no gathering in the aisles". It doesn't even have to be terrorism related. Sometimes crews are assaulted by drunk passengers, sometimes crew members are the ones with an evil plot.

As a frequent flyer I personally think that a plane is not the place to spend your time standing up for no good reason. The biggest turbulences I've experienced come with no warning and people can get hurt quite bad.

As for the "security through obscurity", MuffinsDa is completely right. Security never works if it's maintained by secrets that can be easily revealed. Airlines have to be confident that their procedures work even if witnessed/discussed by random people. Door code (especially if its different for different planes, flights) is not a secret that can easily be revealed, but let's say - a single hidden/secret button that would open a door - is.

MuffinsDa

IRLConor wrote: »

In fairness, Schneier has been pretty consistent in praising the securing of cockpit doors as one of the few things that changed after September 11th that was actually useful.

As for the security by obscurity argument, that's very often oversimplified. If you rely on the obscurity for your security it's a fault. If you have a well-designed system then obscurity may be an additional benefit. It's not a black and white rule. Discussion of the finer points of when obscurity is and is not valuable is probably best left to the Information Security forum though.

Thank's IRLConnor, valid points and argument, I agree with most of what you say. I didn't say Schneier disagrees with cockpit doors by the way. What I meant was it is more secure to say "Here, there is a cockpit door and it's bulletproof" than "Hmm... there may or may not be a door there and it may or may not be bullet proof". Open discussions also lead to more scrutiny from well-meaning people and improvement in the security of the system.
I fully agree with you that it's not black and white, but in this specific case discussing something that is widely and openly available (and observable) doesn't harm anything, other than certain people's egos maybe!

Lapin

basill wrote: »

Cockpit door security procedures are approved by the regulator and are specific to that particular airline. They do not need to be discussed on an open forum with non airline pilots for obvious reasons.

Are you really suggesting that only pilots can discuss certain matters relating to security in public?

Don't be so bloody ridiculous.

LeftBase

Lapin wrote: »

Are you really suggesting that only pilots can discuss certain matters relating to security in public?

Don't be so bloody ridiculous.

I think what he is saying is that it is unnecessary to openly discuss security on an open forum.

In this case the Airline in question has been mentioned and as cockpit door regulations are pretty important as far as security goes pilots will tend not to advertise how they work.

MuffinsDa

LeftBase wrote: »

I think what he is saying is that it is unnecessary to openly discuss security on an open forum.

In this case the Airline in question has been mentioned and as cockpit door regulations are pretty important as far as security goes pilots will tend not to advertise how they work.

I recommend blindfolding all passengers when the captain needs to go wee-wee.

Pacing Mule

martinsvi wrote: »

I don't get what OP was so frustrated about? any airline/authority has the right to do certain things to improve security. In USA you can't event stretch your legs even if it's a long haul - they will yell at you - "no gathering in the aisles". It doesn't even have to be terrorism related. Sometimes crews are assaulted by drunk passengers, sometimes crew members are the ones with an evil plot.

As a frequent flyer I personally think that a plane is not the place to spend your time standing up for no good reason. The biggest turbulences I've experienced come with no warning and people can get hurt quite bad.

The frustration was not with this as an isolated incident. The incident itself got me curious which led to the question about policy from a security perspective.

What was frustrating was this was one of at least 10 occasions where some announcement or instruction from flight crew startled / woke up a baby just as he had been settled from the last time. From what I can tell (and this would be a different thread in itself) there is a deliberate policy to keep everyone awake so that revenue might be generated from them. Separate and multiple cabin announcements at high volume for pre order hot food, the drinks cart, get away cafe, smokeless cigarettes, children's activity sets, Ryanair scratch cards, which were followed by a special offer bonus announcement each time. Perhaps I noticed it more due to the baby but at least half if not two thirds of the announcements could have been done at same time. Instead even though it was a late night flight announcements were staggered at regular intervals across the 4 hours. After 3 hours of a plane with 5 or 6 kids in the same situation (loud crying etc) it was another ah FFS moment.

bikeman1

Correct, you are their captive audience for the entire time you are on board.

Try a flight to London, its just about the right sector length for Ryanair to nearly have a continuous announcement for the 1 hour flight.

Back on topic, having flown with Ryanair nearly 100 times, it is very clear to see what the procedure is for a toilet break. If you are sitting in rows 1/2/3 you would want to be blind not to work out how its done!

urajoke

For the love of God just give them the full security procedures for cockpit entry so the "well meaning people" can discuss it and tell us all where we are going wrong.

MuffinsDa

urajoke wrote: »

For the love of God just give them the full security procedures for cockpit entry so the "well meaning people" can discuss it and tell us all where we are going wrong.

Blindfold! Blindfold!

urajoke

MuffinsDa wrote: »

Blindfold! Blindfold!

No gags would be better.

80RPilot

This is a very standard procedure, If I need to go to the loo, the same said thing happens, I want to be out of the flight deck for as little time as possible. Would you prefer if the Captain was number 6 in a queue for the toilet at the back?

If the Pilots were out of the cockpit for 15 minutes, thered be another thread on here about that too...

Growler!!!

But you've a different problem 80R. Your jacks is at the back of the plane.........

80RPilot

It could be worse! Some of them dont have one lol

LeftBase

MuffinsDa wrote: »

I recommend blindfolding all passengers when the captain needs to go wee-wee.

With the seatbelt sign on there is no danger of someone rushing the door when it opens and it cuts to a minimum the time the pilot is out of the flight deck. For example a Captain may not want to leave an inexperienced FO alone in the cockpit for a long period of time. They may only have a short while in the cruise in which to get the deed done. There are many reasons.

I remember in the States they barricaded the top of the aisle with the food cart and the purser stood guard gawking down the cabin at everyone as we sat there. The captain then came out and stood there staring too...was a little off putting...he then pulled his fly down before entering the toilet....I thought he may go "gear down, flaps out" there and then...

steve-o

I have it on good authority that Ryanair dock the captain's pay while he's out of the cockpit, but as a nice touch they play the fanfare if he does a number 2.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Couldn't the pilot have peed into a cup? I mean, how dare he use the toilet....

McNulty737

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

The frustration was not with this as an isolated incident. The incident itself got me curious which led to the question about policy from a security perspective.

What was frustrating was this was one of at least 10 occasions where some announcement or instruction from flight crew startled / woke up a baby just as he had been settled from the last time. From what I can tell (and this would be a different thread in itself) there is a deliberate policy to keep everyone awake so that revenue might be generated from them. Separate and multiple cabin announcements at high volume for pre order hot food, the drinks cart, get away cafe, smokeless cigarettes, children's activity sets, Ryanair scratch cards, which were followed by a special offer bonus announcement each time. Perhaps I noticed it more due to the baby but at least half if not two thirds of the announcements could have been done at same time. Instead even though it was a late night flight announcements were staggered at regular intervals across the 4 hours. After 3 hours of a plane with 5 or 6 kids in the same situation (loud crying etc) it was another ah FFS moment.

The whole world does not revolve around your baby getting to sleep. Maybe next time you could tranquillize him/her or even better yet stick the kid in the cargo hold? Would save the other passengers the extreme discomfort of having to listen to the whinging/screaming for four hours.

GTE

This is one of the best examples of how forums go wrong.

All that started the thread was an observation that a pilot seemed to make space for his toilet break by making sure no one goes to the loo, but it turns out to be a security procedure.

I'd say end the thread there but I am sure there will be a counter argument to this post.

The Ted and Dougal distance lecture springs to mind.

smurfjed

Rumor has it that all airlines will have to introduce these next year.

http://www.sportys.com/PilotShop/product/17485

LXFlyer

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

The frustration was not with this as an isolated incident. The incident itself got me curious which led to the question about policy from a security perspective.

What was frustrating was this was one of at least 10 occasions where some announcement or instruction from flight crew startled / woke up a baby just as he had been settled from the last time. From what I can tell (and this would be a different thread in itself) there is a deliberate policy to keep everyone awake so that revenue might be generated from them. Separate and multiple cabin announcements at high volume for pre order hot food, the drinks cart, get away cafe, smokeless cigarettes, children's activity sets, Ryanair scratch cards, which were followed by a special offer bonus announcement each time. Perhaps I noticed it more due to the baby but at least half if not two thirds of the announcements could have been done at same time. Instead even though it was a late night flight announcements were staggered at regular intervals across the 4 hours. After 3 hours of a plane with 5 or 6 kids in the same situation (loud crying etc) it was another ah FFS moment.

Frankly speaking we all know what Ryanair's business model is. If you want a quiet flight, don't fly with them. It's as simple as that.

There are plenty of other airlines out there to choose from.

Cessna_Pilot

If I switch the seatbelt sign on it's nine times out of ten we are or suspect we are about to encounter turbulence and I want you to sit down. If the resulting PA wakes a baby or two so be it. I couldn't care less about what the crew are peddling.
The other time I need a leak.

Pacing Mule

80RPilot wrote: »

This is a very standard procedure, If I need to go to the loo, the same said thing happens, I want to be out of the flight deck for as little time as possible. Would you prefer if the Captain was number 6 in a queue for the toilet at the back?

If the Pilots were out of the cockpit for 15 minutes, thered be another thread on here about that too...

Actually the time spent in the jacks was not in my mind at all. I'd actually prefer the pilot to get in and out ASAP just in case something happened to the other pilot. The OP was meant as a question out of curiousty (from a security perspective as opposed to a queue skipping toilet break!)

Pacing Mule

McNulty737 wrote: »

The whole world does not revolve around your baby getting to sleep. Maybe next time you could tranquillize him/her or even better yet stick the kid in the cargo hold? Would save the other passengers the extreme discomfort of having to listen to the whinging/screaming for four hours.

Obviously you don't have kids yourself.

Pacing Mule

lxflyer wrote: »

Frankly speaking we all know what Ryanair's business model is. If you want a quiet flight, don't fly with them. It's as simple as that.

There are plenty of other airlines out there to choose from.

Unfortunately not to my destination. They are the only service providers. But absolutely if I had a choice I would most definitely go with the quieter airline in future.

(Apologies for 3 posts in a row - am on mobile and can't multi quote)

LXFlyer

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

Unfortunately not to my destination. They are the only service providers. But absolutely if I had a choice I would most definitely go with the quieter airline in future.

(Apologies for 3 posts in a row - am on mobile and can't multi quote)

I think you'll find you can pretty much anywhere in Europe from Dublin using other airlines (albeit not necessarily a direct flight).

pclancy

OK I dont see this going anywhere constructive and seems to have run its course. From a security perspective I dont see any value in discussing cockpit entry/egress procedures here, there are plenty of other forums where you can do so if you wish. Regarding Ryanair's inflight service and announcements, I would start a new thread in the Travel forum if you wish to discuss that further.