Do Public Servants have to give their name?

Lofty123

does anyone know if a Public Servant from a government Department is obliged to give their name if asked?

My daughter was on the phone to the Medical Card Appeals Section of the HSE today. Her medical card has been withdrawn. She was not informed, and only discovered this when she went to collect a prescription at her local pharmacy.

She wanted to send documentation in support of her appeal. The lady she spoke to was rude and unhelpful. (this seems to be becoming commonplace when dealing with "Public Servants")
When asked for her name she refused to give it, saying "we get far too many appeals now to be giving our names to people". If we wanted to lodge a complaint about her rudeness how could we do so if we didn't have the name of the person?
My daughter was advised to fax the documents to them.. Fax, in 2013???
After some discussion, she managed to get an email address for the department. In my experience if you are dealing with a department rather than a person documents tend to get "lost" or "not received"

Surely you have some rights in this situation? Who made the decision to rescind her medical card? Why was she not informed in writing, with said persons signature?

Mary Harney created the HSE to hide behind. It would appear that the employees are now doing the same.:mad:

MadsL

http://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/

Puts manners on depts.

UCDVet

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/

Puts manners on depts.

It sounds good - but it doesn't seem like they have any authority? So, yes, you can complain, and they can 'investigate' but it's unlikely the rude lady is going to have any reason to not be rude in the future. Maybe, in a few weeks, you'll get a nice apology.

Red Pepper

UCDVet wrote: »

It sounds good - but it doesn't seem like they have any authority? So, yes, you can complain, and they can 'investigate' but it's unlikely the rude lady is going to have any reason to not be rude in the future.

Yep, there is a small chance she will be moved on but she will not be fired. Union rules. Often you need to "promote" or give an excellent performance rating to a troublesome employee to move them on. Especially in the HSE. It's really messed up. Some back office (i.e. non front line bureaucracy) sections of the HSE are absolutely horrible places to work in but most people are loathe to leave for obvious reasons.

Christ the Redeemer

Back when I was a Civil Servant I'd of gotten a clip round the ear from my HEO for being rude to people on the phone.

Red Pepper

Lofty123 wrote: »

Mary Harney created the HSE to hide behind. It would appear that the employees are now doing the same.:mad:

The amalgamation of the health boards into the HSE was a good idea. Unfortunately it was very badly handled. The health boards had many people doing the exact same role/tasks. When the HSE was formed, this work should have been consolidated or centralised and the "excess" people let go. However there were no layoffs and this created a disaster. The HSE did consolidate a lot of admin tasks but it left lots of people with SFA to do so they had to create processes and procedures and zero value add roles to keep people "busy". And now we have the bureaucratic mess that is the HSE. The HSE is very well funded but the money spent on salaries/expenses for the "excess" staff should be going to the front line and facilities. It needs to be rebuilt from the bottom up but this time, they simply have to reduce back office staff numbers considerably and hire more doctors/nurses.

woodoo

There was a letter sent out to every medical card holder a couple of months ago to confirm if you still need the card. Maybe she didn't reply to that letter.

kupus

Good luck in dealing with the civil servants in ireland, your going to need patience and lots of it.
They are unionized and as such answerable to nobody, basically untouchable and sending the ombudsman after them....... Its like sending a poodle to do a rottweilers job.

kneemos

Probably advised not to give their names most likely.

Specialun

Think it was mary that you were speaking to

MadsL

When was the last Civil Servant actually fired? Anyone know?

woodoo

MadsL wrote: »

When was the last Civil Servant actually fired? Anyone know?

1982 after their 2nd murder. They let them back after the first murder but called a halt after the second.

wazky

woodoo wrote: »

1982 after their 2nd murder. They let them back after the first murder but called a halt after the second.

Ah the lad who was murdered first was asking for it though, he should have known how to fill out the form without asking for help.

Lapin

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

Back when I was a Civil Servant I'd of gotten a clip round the ear from my HEO for being rude to people on the phone.

Did you then take a year off on full pay while taking your HEO to a tribunal for the trauma you endured before returning to work for him or her when a suitable compensation package was agreed at the taxpayers expense ?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Lofty123 wrote: »

does anyone know if a Public Servant from a government Department is obliged to give their name if asked?

My daughter was on the phone to the Medical Card Appeals Section of the HSE today. Her medical card has been withdrawn. She was not informed, and only discovered this when she went to collect a prescription at her local pharmacy.

She wanted to send documentation in support of her appeal. The lady she spoke to was rude and unhelpful. (this seems to be becoming commonplace when dealing with "Public Servants")
When asked for her name she refused to give it, saying "we get far too many appeals now to be giving our names to people". If we wanted to lodge a complaint about her rudeness how could we do so if we didn't have the name of the person?
My daughter was advised to fax the documents to them.. Fax, in 2013???
After some discussion, she managed to get an email address for the department. In my experience if you are dealing with a department rather than a person documents tend to get "lost" or "not received"

Surely you have some rights in this situation? Who made the decision to rescind her medical card? Why was she not informed in writing, with said persons signature?

Mary Harney created the HSE to hide behind. It would appear that the employees are now doing the same.:mad:

Have you tried this forum OP? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=861

I don't believe they are obliged to give their names. Why would they be? It's not exactly an easy job and contrary to popular belief, they're on sweet f all.

You might get a better answer than AH. You mentioned Public Servants so expect this thread to enter a shít storm.

It seems from your OP that you are upset, I understand this, but there is a reason why your daughters medical card was withdrawn. In order to find this out, you should go through the normal process. Looks like to me that you're looking for a target of some sort to let loose on. Was the lady actually rude? Were you there? What did she say or do that made her rude? Why don't you try focusing your energy on getting the issue fixed rather than placing blame on somebody?

Don't get what you want so you have to target somebody... :rolleyes:

Lapin

Aitana Straight Graveyard wrote: »

......It seems from your OP that you are upset, I understand this, but there is a reason why your daughters medical card was withdrawn......

Yeah, she probably filled out her application form with an upside down full stop on page 7.

ChewChew

I think when you ring a number and the switch/hunt pits you through, before that public servant answers the phone we should get their full name, address, mobile no and pps number. Just in case we need to torch them like.

Christ the Redeemer

Lapin wrote: »

Did you then take a year off on full pay while taking your HEO to a tribunal for the trauma you endured before returning to work for him or her when a suitable compensation package was agreed at the taxpayers expense ?

No, I left for the private sector.

Lumbo

MadsL wrote: »

When was the last Civil Servant actually fired? Anyone know?

Last Thursday.

joe swanson

Pay peanuts - get monkeys.

This is the result of cuts upon cuts.

MadsL

ChewChew wrote: »

I think when you ring a number and the switch/hunt pits you through, before that public servant answers the phone we should get their full name, address, mobile no and pps number. Just in case we need to torch them like.

My torch is broken..any idea where I could get it fixed?

bgrizzley

MadsL wrote: »

My torch is broken..any idea where I could get it fixed?

i hear Petersons in Dunlaoghaire repair them, (or it may be covered by warranty)

Lofty123

Lofty123 wrote: »

She was not informed, and only discovered this when she went to collect a prescription at her local pharmacy.

When asked for her name she refused to give it, saying "we get far too many appeals now to be giving our names to people". If we wanted to lodge a complaint about her rudeness how could we do so if we didn't have the name of the person?

Was it still in date?
Why should she have to give you her name? People in her position probably get threatened with complaints and much worse every day. It would be unwise to give people her personal information.

You seem to think that this woman was out to get your daughter - why would she be? Do you think it's more likely that she was an evil bitch out to get some poor woman on the phone and cause herself hassle, or do you think that maybe your daughter was shocked, worried and maybe even a little bit embarrassed about what happened at the pharmacy and was difficult to deal with over the phone?

Aitana Straight Graveyard wrote: »

It's not exactly an easy job and contrary to popular belief, they're on sweet f all.

What did she say or do that made her rude?

I'd agree here OP, what do you actually have to go on?

Almaviva

joe swanson wrote: »

Pay peanuts - get monkeys.

Overpay them, dont manage them, get the work of monkeys.

ChewChew

MadsL wrote: »

My torch is broken..any idea where I could get it fixed?

Jaysis you're askin the wrong person. I heard the medical card applications lady is very helpful!! Call her

Lapin

ChewChew wrote: »

Jaysis you're askin the wrong person. I heard the medical card applications lady is very helpful!! Call her

They can't - They don't know her name.

michellie

I wouldn't give out my full name in work, maybe my first name or my employee number. But I dont feel comfortable giving out my name to irate people who want to complain because they are not happy with the correct information you are giving them.

woodoo

Did your daughter move address or anything and not tell the medical card office

ChewChew

Lapin wrote: »

They can't - They don't know her name.

Sure all them there monkeys are the same... Won't matter really who they get on the phone

whirlpool

Aitana Straight Graveyard wrote: »

Was the lady actually rude? Were you there? What did she say or do that made her rude? Why don't you try focusing your energy on getting the issue fixed rather than placing blame on somebody?

Don't get what you want so you have to target somebody... :rolleyes:

Why bother asking the OP question if you're just going to decide on the conclusion before hearing the answer?

How about waiting for the OP to respond to your questions?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

whirlpool wrote: »

Why bother asking the OP question if you're just going to decide on the conclusion before hearing the answer?

How about waiting for the OP to respond to your questions?

My statement was a general one, not specific to the OP but in general.

If you have dealt with the general public in a job of some sort, you may have encountered it.

Customer is seeking something which the company does not provide, but the customer wants to use the company for their services for whatever reason. Instead of accepting it, the customer would tend to turn on the company and try to pick out some flaw or another to focus their attack on.

Carawaystick

michellie wrote: »

I wouldn't give out my full name in work, maybe my first name or my employee number. But I dont feel comfortable giving out my name to irate people who want to complain because they are not happy with the correct information you are giving them.

Do you work in the public sector?

Do you not have the confidence that a vexatious complaint will be dealt with correctly?

Says a lot for Public services who have often sent me anonymous letters where the line for a name at the bottom of a letter is deliberately left blank.

Dostoevsky

michellie wrote: »

I wouldn't give out my full name in work, maybe my first name or my employee number. But I dont feel comfortable giving out my name to irate people who want to complain because they are not happy with the correct information you are giving them.

It's unacceptable that public servants, or any employee, could have a right to not give their first name to a caller. Every call I make, to public or private sectors, I ask the name of the person to whom I'm speaking. If their first name is very common and they are in a large organisation I will ask their surname.

This is common courtesy and basic professionalism on the part of the caller as well. If you've been given information by an employee of a company/state body, it is always wise to get that person's name. If somebody is not confident about giving their name out after giving information then they are clearly not confident about the information they have just given out. They should not be allowed to mislead people and be unaccountable for doing so.

Dostoevsky

Dostoevsky wrote: »

This is common courtesy and basic professionalism on the part of the caller as well. If you've been given information by an employee of a company/state body, it is always wise to get that person's name. If somebody is not confident about giving their name out after giving information then they are clearly not confident about the information they have just given out. They should not be allowed to mislead people and be unaccountable for doing so.

If I think I'm going to have an ongoing issue with a company I'll try to get a name so that I can continually deal with someone who is already aware of my issue. Likewise, if someone from my company/another company is dealing with me in an ongoing way, I'll give my name. If a customer has an issue and will be dealing with me in an ongoing way I'd not only give my name when asked but I'd make sure they knew my name so that I could help them as best as possible.

But I am not going to give my name out on the phone to an irate customer who is looking to form a vendetta against me just because they don't like the truth. They can lodge a complaint about me with the information they have if they want (the time and nature of the call, my gender, my approximate age), but I'm not giving them my personal information so that they can rant about me in public and on the internet, and set me up as the reason for all their problems. Plus on a personal level, I feel that giving my name is my way of telling a customer I'm going to have their back, and deal with their issue continually, and I sure as hell don't feel like doing that for someone who's being difficult with me.

imme

ah, wouldn't it be great if we all had medical cards. ah:cool:

There are 2 million :eek: medical cards and GP only visit cards in issue. :eek::eek::eek:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/almost-half-of-us-has-a-medical-card-222522.html
Somebody must be getting through to the HSE OP.:pac:

Zen65

I'm not a big fan of the Public Service, but I have to admit they do a job that most of us would not want to do. Despite what people think, most of the PS staff we encounter are not especially well paid, and while they have great job security they also have very stressful interactions with the public, who very often are anything but civil in their approach. A friend of mine worked in the Social Welfare years ago and told me awful stories of physical threats being made against her.

So frankly you can't blame them for not giving out their full names. There are loons out there who would threaten and intimidate families of employees if they thought it would help them get their way.

We don't know why OP's daughter lost her medical card. We don't know why OP has not responded to this thread after posing the question yesterday. Assuming that the PS lady was in some way at fault is unwarranted. Rudeness is often solely in the eye of the witness rather than something intended.

It's tough doing a job where your title includes the word "servant". People mistake that term to mean that the job holder is in some way beholding to them, which is a wrong interpretation. The government is beholding to its people, but all job holders are entitled to be treated with dignity and respect, and PS staff should in no way be beholding to individuals who want more than the people we put in charge of the country have agreed on our behalf to grant them.

Just my two cents,


Z

gazzer

In the Civil Service Department I work in we HAVE to give our name when dealing with the public. Sure why wouldnt you give out your name anyway?

Lofty123

The initial reason my Daughter requested the lady's name was to have a contact within an anonymous department to ensure that documents sent did not get "lost" or "not received", which has happened to her before. This is important, letters from government departments now demand that you respond within 7 days! Good luck trying to get a response from them within that time.
This was explained at the time, only to be met with rudeness. If you cannot deal with people in a civil manner, you should not be answering calls from them.

The centralisation of Medical Card Applications to Dublin has made the situation worse. We used to have a contact within a local office who was aware of claimants individual circumstances (I wonder what they are doing now?). Now we have some faceless person making arbitrary decisions on the basis of "refuse them 1st and see if they appeal."

My daughter suffers from Chronic Regional Pain Syndrome and has done for over 8 years. This is incurable. She has had a Medical Card all of this time, most recently renewed only 2 months ago. Her circumstances have not changed.

Perhaps we should re-title these people FB's (Faceless Burecrats)

chopper6

Medical cards are costing this country a fortune...seems like every Tom,Dick and Harry wants one.

gazzer

imme wrote: »

ah, wouldn't it be great if we all had medical cards. ah:cool:

There are 2 million :eek: medical cards and GP only visit cards in issue. :eek::eek::eek:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/almost-half-of-us-has-a-medical-card-222522.html
Somebody must be getting through to the HSE OP.:pac:

How the hell are there that many cards in circulation. Thats a crazy amount. Everybody I know has to pay to go to their GP.

Pingi

Are you sure she was on to the appeals office and not the client registration unit (the usual number for ringing about the status of the card application etc)? if the latter then they're not civil servants.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Dostoevsky wrote: »

It's unacceptable that public servants, or any employee, could have a right to not give their first name to a caller. Every call I make, to public or private sectors, I ask the name of the person to whom I'm speaking. If their first name is very common and they are in a large organisation I will ask their surname.

This is common courtesy and basic professionalism on the part of the caller as well. If you've been given information by an employee of a company/state body, it is always wise to get that person's name. If somebody is not confident about giving their name out after giving information then they are clearly not confident about the information they have just given out. They should not be allowed to mislead people and be unaccountable for doing so.

It's unacceptable for you to demand personal details from employees. A first name will suffice.

For the security of the employee, they are not obliged to give you their second name. If you lack cognitive capacity and are unable to use the other information available to you to identify the person you are dealing with, then that's your problem.


This part is complete bullshít;

If somebody is not confident about giving their name out after giving information then they are clearly not confident about the information they have just given out.

Clearly, this is incorrect. Have you thought that maybe there are other reasons?

Generally, when a customer asks for details prior to the conversation, I find them to be obnoxious and ignorant. They tend to be argumentative and have a self entitled way about them. Whoever came up with "the customer is always right" is an idiot. Generally, customers haven't a clue what they are talking about and make ridiculous demands. Of course, this depends largely on the industry.

Lofty123

chopper6 wrote: »

Medical cards are costing this country a fortune...seems like every Tom,Dick and Harry wants one.

I hope that if you develop a serious condition, which is statistically quite likely, you have the means to pay for private treatment.

OldNotWIse

Lofty123 wrote: »

The initial reason my Daughter requested the lady's name was to have a contact within an anonymous department to ensure that documents sent did not get "lost" or "not received", which has happened to her before. This is important, letters from government departments now demand that you respond within 7 days! Good luck trying to get a response from them within that time.
This was explained at the time, only to be met with rudeness. If you cannot deal with people in a civil manner, you should not be answering calls from them.

The centralisation of Medical Card Applications to Dublin has made the situation worse. We used to have a contact within a local office who was aware of claimants individual circumstances (I wonder what they are doing now?). Now we have some faceless person making arbitrary decisions on the basis of "refuse them 1st and see if they appeal."

My daughter suffers from Chronic Regional Pain Syndrome and has done for over 8 years. This is incurable. She has had a Medical Card all of this time, most recently renewed only 2 months ago. Her circumstances have not changed.

Perhaps we should re-title these people FB's (Faceless Burecrats)

Calling someone faceless because you cant see them because they're...on the phone?

Are you annoyed because this woman mistreated you or because your daughter no longer qualifies as one of the 2million (I cant believe it!) who get a medical card?

Ray Palmer

I don't work with the public myself but do deal with the civil servants that deal with the public.

The amount of lies from the public on social welfare is amazing. Claims of not receiving letters, emails, texts happens all the time. Amazingly messages sent the same way are received when they involve rate cuts. Clearly stated on the letters contact for an appointment but the people just arrive expecting to be seen instantly.

They ring and shout down the phone at people who answer them. There is absolutely no point in having the persons name as they won't be processing your claim. It would be like asking for the receptionists name in a insurance company to know who deals with your claim. The reason for faxing is they need a physical document for legal reasons. If you can email it you can fax it.

The amount of incomplete documentation that comes in is amazing. People send in doctors letters without their PPSN like people are going to fill out the forms for them after figuring out what their PPSN is. I would say the vast majority of lost application fall into that category. They are just dumped as far as I know, the theory being simple fill out the form to apply if you don't you will apply correctly the next time and be in touch.

In one area they sent out letters to all job seekers to verify their address, 40% never replied and were cut off. Then only a small portion came in. Similar was done with medical cards

Lofty123

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Calling someone faceless because you cant see them because they're...on the phone?

Are you annoyed because this woman mistreated you or because your daughter no longer qualifies as one of the 2million (I cant believe it!) who get a medical card?

The faceless people I am referring to are those that make arbitrary decisions without communicating them in writing with a signature. I you had read my previous posts you would see that the initial reason for seeking a name was to avoid documents becoming "lost in the system"

I don't care how many other people have medical cards (yes, I am a self employed tax payer.) My daughter has a horrible condition which requires complex and expensive procedures and medications, many of which are not covered by the Drug Repayment Scheme.

OldNotWIse

Lofty123 wrote: »

The faceless people I am referring to are those that make arbitrary decisions without communicating them in writing with a signature. I you had read my previous posts you would see that the initial reason for seeking a name was to avoid documents becoming "lost in the system"

I don't care how many other people have medical cards (yes, I am a self employed tax payer.) My daughter has a horrible condition which requires complex and expensive procedures and medications, many of which are not covered by the Drug Repayment Scheme.

I thought your reason for wanting her name was to report her for being rude??

Lofty123

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I thought your reason for wanting her name was to report her for being rude??

I clarified this in post #38

brendanL

Alrighty, since this is turning into ps bashing thread:
I Worked for a section as a summer temp for the Dept of PS about 2 years back now.

Lets get one thing straight in my time there, some people working there, are genuinely nice people and I'm not discrediting them as I go on, they deserve a mention and made my time there bearable , and the others which I shall elaborate on were complete assholes, just like real life.

Now I was only in one office, I've heard some really good stories / really bad stories of other offices.. so yeah the PS is gigantic... some of it's fine.. some of it not so fine.

Anyways now to my wondrous time there, I was public facing, and I actually can't comfortably watch "the office" because it reminds me of that place so badly I want to be sick.. you know the young guy that they ask "what does he think about career prospects" while working were.. and he replies "I'd rather throw myself under a train then continue working here"... that about sums up my time working there.

In regards to the name thing, I genuinely didn't care, if someone asked for my name I gave my name.. if they asked for my full name.. I gave my full name, I really REALLY didn't give a ****. If I was being an ass..I figured I should get fired, so giving them my name made sense / motivated me to be a nice guy.

I went out of my way to be quiet calm and nice on the phone.. and trust me there was a lot of people shouting at me, but eventually I'd calm them down and get them to accept their options ahead. Whenever I got someone "normal" who just went along with it I literally counted my lucky stars and they reminded me there was some sane people out there.

Every now and then.. lets call him old regular, who has worked there for an age, would get a call.. he would get angry with them.. curse and then slam the phone down.. even calling them stupid. How was he allowed to continue working there...why the hell did they put him on the phones.. basically.. wtf management.

He was untouchable because of his union. But that very union was representing a protecting a complete asshole who deserved to be dropped from the top of the building.

And so you have the civil service.. where the nice quiet old dears are screwed and kill themselves doing work.. and complete assholes get away with being assholes.

Lets not forget the system / offices they are in. They are old, nasty and the machines are ancient. The systems they use to keep track of things are ancient,
the systems for tracking things... are ancient. My favourite game was to sit there and think how much time it would take me to produce some web app to just do all the things we did... / let people log in with their pps and find out info for themselves. Imagine the money it would save... lol imagine... if it wasn't run by old people basically.

A college student today could write a better application to solve their problems then some of the massive software applications they have had custom made.. 20 years ago .. it was terrifying how inefficient everything was.

The whole experience made me fearful of life after college.. Thankfully I work in an awesome office now with cool people in the private sector.. which just further cements how nuts the whole system is.

TBH, if you really want an answer.. call the same section... just ask to speak to the manager... they usually are quite busy.. but say you'll wait.. and talk to that guy... they don't become managers without being sane... atleast not in my experiance.. and you'll get your convo.. and your name then.

OldNotWIse

Lofty123 wrote: »

I clarified this in post #38

Oh, sorry I just read the first post, which said:

If we wanted to lodge a complaint about her rudeness how could we do so if we didn't have the name of the person?

chopper6

Lofty123 wrote: »

I hope that if you develop a serious condition, which is statistically quite likely, you have the means to pay for private treatment.

No...some of us actually work for a living and will have to pay for GP and hospital visits anyway.