Explaining to kids...

aaakev

So my 5 year old is full of questions, he is going into senior infants so has done a bit of religion in achool and has a 9 year old sister who fully believes in god "because her teacher told her"... Which is fine, she is free to make her own decisions. They both know my views so the topic comes up now and then. The mammy in the situation doesnt like the conversation so doesbt really get involved..

Anyway the other day i had the 2 kids in the car and the little lad asks me did god make earth. I told him no and he then asked how did it get here. I tried to explain evolution to him but i wasnt able to explain it in a way he could grasp at 5! Its going to come up again so im just looking for some ideas...

A documentory aimed at kids explaining how everything came to be would be great!!

doctoremma

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Magic-Reality-whats-really-ebook/dp/B007MC0IAG/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1376386766&sr=1-1

It might still be a little advanced for your children, but it will at least give YOU ideas for how to approach the tricky subjects.

robindch

aaakev wrote: »

[...] a 9 year old sister who fully believes in god "because her teacher told her"... Which is fine, she is free to make her own decisions.

Doesn't sound to me that that daughter made a free decision, if she only believes something because her teacher told her to. If it were my kid, I'd be unhappy at that.

aaakev wrote: »

[...] had the 2 kids in the car and the little lad asks me did god make earth. I told him no and he then asked how did it get here. I tried to explain evolution to him but i wasnt able to explain it in a way he could grasp at 5! Its going to come up again so im just looking for some ideas...

My kid's 6 3/4 and while she doesn't understand evolution -- some people never manage to -- she does get that we came from apes since she can see the similarities in behaviour, shape and so on. She's cool with that. The zoo's been pretty good for educating her about other animals, as has the RTE series "The Zoo", David Attenborough, and so on. Dawkins wrote a book for kids too:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Magic-Reality-Whats-Really/dp/1451675046

...but that's a bit beyond a 5 year old.

Basically, I just show her whatever she's comfortable seeing + doing, fill her in on whatever questions she asks, and ask her "difficult" questions from time to time to help direct her thinking in useful directions. I tend to avoid saying that there's no god, but instead, that I don't think there's a god. But as time goes by and more and more religious people get at her, that will probably change.

The BBC series "Inside the Human Body" is her favourite, and has watched it many times -- it doesn't do much about evolution, but everything it does do, it does very well indeed.

Dades

I think it's important to let them know that just because someone says something is true, doesn't mean it is. Your daughter assumes that because a teacher says it, it must be fact.

To my mind it's important they know that someone else they trust - i.e. you - believes something different to their teacher. That then forces them to actually think about the idea that not everything is black and white.

Kids should know that everyone believes different things, and that when it comes to some things they should make their own minds up, even if not until they're older.

aaakev

Cheers for the replies. I have not said there is no god i have always said i dont believe there is and explained (as much as i can to kids!) why. Ill look into the stuff mentioned!

My daughter is actually my step daughter so there was another influence there beyond my control, her father.. No longer in the picture but he use to spout alot of crap about god so she took alot of that on... She knows quite a bit about evolution and actually says she believes in both! The only religious influence now is school which i cannot do anything about, changing schools is not an option for her but i am trying to get my son into an educate together school from first class on. I have tried explaining to her that the stories in religion are just that, stories, not fact.

Obliq

aaakev wrote: »

Anyway the other day i had the 2 kids in the car and the little lad asks me did god make earth.

I did talk about this before on some thread somewhere. I had 2 kids in the car as well, and my son said "look at all that smoke!" as we drove under a particularly smokey looking cloud. I said that it wasn't smoke it was a cloud and my son said "how are clouds made?". "God made them" was the other lad's reply, to which my son immediately asked "Why?".

At that point, I was able to say that whether you believe in god or not, there is an explanation for clouds and it's not magic. Then went on to give "understandable to 6yr olds" explanation about water vapour and cooling. It involved kettles, as far as I remember. I may have lost them a bit, but I didn't have to diss the other little chap's god. Phew.

The earth one is a hard question though.

Akrasia

Whenever my son asks me questions about how the world works I remember how Feynman described his relationship with his father and how it inspired him to have a deep interest in the world.

Feynman describes how his father used to take him out into the countryside and encourage him to look and observe the wildlife and plants and to ask himself why these things behave the way they do

To appreciate that true knowledge isn't trivia, ie, knowing the names of things, but it is a deeper understanding of how things work and interact with each other.

Feynmans deep curiosity makes everything interesting because no matter how mundane the question appears to be, when you ask 'why' you get to deeper and deeper questions about the nature of our reality.

There are two things that I really want to pass on to my children.
1. Curiosity, and the need to know 'why' without just accepting an explanation
2. The value of trying hard. The most important thing is that you are prepared to challenge yourself. Being right or wrong about something is not important, it's much more important to recognise the value of putting the effort into something. The rewards from success at something hard are infinitely greater than doing something easy moderately well.

Frito

I would agree with the above, I had a similar conversation with my niece a few years ago about religion. Her mother isn't religious but she learns a bit about it at school, and she was interested in showing her knowledge about Christianity when she recognised the crucifix in my mam's house.
I try to use these situations as opportunities to develop critical thinking rather than giving an answer, it usually goes along the lines of me asking her what she thinks, and (importantly) why she thinks that. And what does she think about a different opinion? So the process of arriving at a conclusion is more important than the conclusion reached.
"Is Santa real?" is a killer though, and I'm a mass of contradictions in that instance.

Dades

Frito wrote: »

"Is Santa real?" is a killer though, and I'm a mass of contradictions in that instance.

Even for a child, there's a lot more evidence for Santa. You can meet him and he leaves you actual presents on Christmas Eve.

Oddly, nobody's ever seen God and He didn't leave that awesome train set under the tree.

lazygal

I plan on dealing with the Santa question by pointing out that Santa, unlike God, leaves tangible evidence of his presence.

There's a good FB page on raising children without religion if you want to check it out.

Obliq

lazygal wrote: »

I plan on dealing with the Santa question by pointing out that Santa, unlike God, leaves tangible evidence of his presence.

There's a good FB page on raising children without religion if you want to check it out.

Well, my 11 yr old just found out this year and was DISGUSTED, for 5 minutes, that I lied to him (till I reminded him of the pressies he got and gave him the reasons behind lying to your kids was to give them a nice surprise, like with the tooth fairy).

mickrock

aaakev wrote: »

the little lad asks me did god make earth. I told him no and he then asked how did it get here. I tried to explain evolution to him but i wasnt able to explain it in a way he could grasp at 5!

You think evolution was how the Earth got here?

Explain the Big Bang to him and how everything came from nothing.

Akrasia

Frito wrote: »

I would agree with the above, I had a similar conversation with my niece a few years ago about religion. Her mother isn't religious but she learns a bit about it at school, and she was interested in showing her knowledge about Christianity when she recognised the crucifix in my mam's house.
I try to use these situations as opportunities to develop critical thinking rather than giving an answer, it usually goes along the lines of me asking her what she thinks, and (importantly) why she thinks that. And what does she think about a different opinion? So the process of arriving at a conclusion is more important than the conclusion reached.
"Is Santa real?" is a killer though, and I'm a mass of contradictions in that instance.

My son has two modes of play, sometimes he gets totally into character and he 'is' spiderman or batman or a frog or whatever he's playing at. If you call him by his name, he won't answer. Sometimes he will play games where his toys are real and have ideas and motivations and can communicate within the game

Other times he plays games where the toys are toys and if i try to ask questions about what the toys are thinking he tells me 'they're not thinking anything, they're just toys'

Children have different modes/compartments where they can easily hold multiple contradictory beliefs all at the same time.

I think deep down, my son doesn't believe in Santa, since he was two he was asking skeptical questions about Santa, but because he really wants to believe and because santa is so much fun, he's happy to put aside his skepticism and enjoy the benefits of living in a world where Santa is real.

Monsters aren't real either, but when he needs someone to defeat in superhero mode, then the monsters are everywhere.

I'm all for going along with the ride. Always answering questions in the spirit of how they were asked. If it's a genuine question I'll answer it honestly, up to and including questions about death, but if it's a question as part of a game or role play then of course I'll play along.

smacl

Never had a major problem with religion and the kids, me being a 2nd generation atheist, and my wife ditched religion pretty much as soon as she got the chance. My elder daughter struggles somewhat with religion classes in school (apparently the four evangelists were not Matthew, Mark, Bill and Ted) but really doesn't care much about religion beyond that. She briefly went Buddhist, but that was more about food choice, and Buddha got the heave ho one weekend morning as I was frying crispy bacon on the pan. Even in a Catholic school, religion doesn't seem to be pushed that hard.

The main problem with fantastical beings in our house has been santa and to a lesser extent the tooth fairy, both who reward belief with goodies. My choice would to have been to skip these two lesser deities as well, but pressure from herself, the granny and a few others made sure this wasn't going to happen. The whole santa thing does irk me by times insofar as I see it as much about propagating a lie as following a tradition.

aaakev

mickrock wrote: »

You think evolution was how the Earth got here?

Explain the Big Bang to him and how everything came from nothing.

No and if you continued reading you would see that the big vang was discussed (kind of!)

kylith

The Santa thing worries me too, though I know I'll do it when the time comes. On the one hand you don't want to lie to your child, but on the other hand you don't want your child to be the one who goes around telling all the other children there's no Santa.

Beruthiel

When I was asked if Santa exists I countered with - What do you think?
She came to her own conclusion, which was he brought prezzies so he must.
You can avoid answering that question for X amount of time without actually lying.

Sonics2k

My daughter and son have a stronger belief in Doctor Who than God, and my daughter had been suspicious of Santa since she was 4.

They've both been given the spree of nonsense of Religion in school and their grandfather, but they only vaguely go with it.

Best thing to do in my opinion is go with what my mother showed me. There are multiple religions, so they can't all be right, but you make your own choice.

I teach my daughter about space, physics and evolution to show her that just because we don't know all the answers, doesn't mean it was a god of some kind.

As Mr Tyson says "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe it"

lazygal

aaakev wrote: »

No and if you continued reading you would see that the big vang was discussed (kind of!)

Is the big vang some creationist 'theory'?

Bannasidhe

lazygal wrote: »

Is the big vang some creationist 'theory'?

Bloody feminazis honing in on everything. :mad:



:pac:

Beruthiel

Sonics2k wrote: »

There are multiple religions, so they can't all be right, but you make your own choice.

This is what I did with my daughter when she asked about god.
Told her about the different ones and said she should think about it and decide on her own.

ShooterSF

Beruthiel wrote: »

When I was asked if Santa exists I countered with - What do you think?
She came to her own conclusion, which was he brought prezzies so he must.
You can avoid answering that question for X amount of time without actually lying.

Teaching the little one how to be a politician eh?

Beruthiel

ShooterSF wrote: »

Teaching the little one how to be a politician eh?

Heh.
The 'little one' is 25 years old now and no sign of her becoming a politician yet....

Sarky

Maybe she's just good at hiding it from you?

marketty

Akrasia wrote: »

Whenever my son asks me questions about how the world works I remember how Feynman described his relationship with his father and how it inspired him to have a deep interest in the world.

Feynman describes how his father used to take him out into the countryside and encourage him to look and observe the wildlife and plants and to ask himself why these things behave the way they do

To appreciate that true knowledge isn't trivia, ie, knowing the names of things, but it is a deeper understanding of how things work and interact with each other.

Feynmans deep curiosity makes everything interesting because no matter how mundane the question appears to be, when you ask 'why' you get to deeper and deeper questions about the nature of our reality.

There are two things that I really want to pass on to my children.
1. Curiosity, and the need to know 'why' without just accepting an explanation
2. The value of trying hard. The most important thing is that you are prepared to challenge yourself. Being right or wrong about something is not important, it's much more important to recognise the value of putting the effort into something. The rewards from success at something hard are infinitely greater than doing something easy moderately well.

This is a very good reply.

I don't have kids but I would hope to teach them these sort of values. When they ask difficult questions like 'why is the earth here?' you could say, 'that's a very good question, what do you think? Lets see what other people think ' and then spend some time on google etc researching it together, and pointing out the difference between origin myths and actual evidence based science. To be fair that would be easier with a 10 yr old than a 5 yr old because of attention span etc! But at 5 it's the question that's important, not the answer. An inquisitive mind should always be encouraged!

swampgas

smacl wrote: »

The main problem with fantastical beings in our house has been santa and to a lesser extent the tooth fairy, both who reward belief with goodies.

My sister-in-law has a very cynical young daughter. When she lost her first tooth, the SIL told her to put it under the pillow so the tooth fairy could take it. When she went to her daughter's room later that night and checked under the pillow, she found a note saying "I know it's you mum, just leave the money"!

Sarky

Classic. Reminds me of a young me.

TwoShedsJackson

Beruthiel wrote: »

Heh.
The 'little one' is 25 years old now and no sign of her becoming a politician yet....

Does she still believe in Santa though?

My boss's son was 10 a couple of years back and his Dad asked him what he wanted from Santa that year.

He was pretty sure that the son knew Santa was not real, and this was confirmed when the answer was: 'and what's Santa's budget this year?'

aaakev

aaakev wrote: »

9 year old sister who fully believes in god "because her teacher told her"... Which is fine, she is free to make her own decisions

That really isn't "free". Remember, nature abhors a vacuum.

aaakev wrote: »

Anyway the other day i had the 2 kids in the car and the little lad asks me did god make earth. I told him no and he then asked how did it get here ... A documentory aimed at kids explaining how everything came to be would be great!!

This site is fantastic and should be perfect for his age:

http://www.esa.int/esaKIDSen/SEMSZ5WJD1E_OurUniverse_0.html

aaakev wrote: »

I tried to explain evolution to him but i wasnt able to explain it in a way he could grasp at 5

Another good site which covers The Theory of Evolution and Charles Darwin among many, many other subjects:

http://www.sciencekids.co.nz/

There are loads of really good sites out there which will help you explain everything to your kids.

aaakev

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That really isn't "free". Remember, nature abhors a vacuum.



This site is fantastic and should be perfect for his age:

http://www.esa.int/esaKIDSen/SEMSZ5WJD1E_OurUniverse_0.html



Another good site which covers The Theory of Evolution and Charles Darwin among many, many other subjects:

http://www.sciencekids.co.nz/

There are loads of really good sites out there which will help you explain everything to your kids.

No i suppose its not free when its shoved down their neck in school but what can i do but accept its going to happen until they leave primary school? Unfortunatly there are no educate together schools in the area....

Cheers for the links will check them out!

kylith

aaakev wrote: »

No i suppose its not free when its shoved down their neck in school but what can i do but accept its going to happen until they leave primary school? Unfortunatly there are no educate together schools in the area....

Cheers for the links will check them out!

You can teach her to question. Show her the evidence for the other side. The worst thing we do to children is stop them asking How and Why.

Bannasidhe

kylith wrote: »

You can teach her to question. Show her the evidence for the other side. The worst thing we do to children is stop them asking How and Why.

This.

kylith

Bannasidhe wrote: »

This.

It's bloody infuriating, but it's the best way to learn. Question everything, and when you've finished questioning everything question whether or not you asked the right questions the first time around and start questioning again.

aaakev

kylith wrote: »

You can teach her to question. Show her the evidence for the other side. The worst thing we do to children is stop them asking How and Why.

Good advise cheers

robindch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

kylith wrote: »

You can teach her to question. Show her the evidence for the other side. The worst thing we do to children is stop them asking How and Why.

This.

Following a post by Bannasidhe last year, I've upped the rewards for Snowflake when she asks a good question -- a deferred chocolate coin for a good question that indicates she's understood enough about something to be able to ask it in the first place. And an immediate Sunday-level treat if she asks a first-class question that I can't answer. We share the treat of course, so it's in my selfish interest that she asks the right kind of question

Slightly off topic OP so I hope you don't mind me bringing it up but I was thinking about it after I posted yesterday.

There seems to be some inconsistency in how you're raising your two children (I know she's your step-daughter) and you might want to think about that.

Talk to your partner about you both taking back control of this aspect of her education, don't resign yourself to the school "shoving it down her neck". If your partner is not interested then ask her if it's OK if you manage it and then include your daughter in what you're doing with your son ... it's fun at any age and will get them talking to each other about it.

Irish primary schools have produced practically all of the atheists I know and you'll probably find that most atheist's children are going through the Irish school system and manage fine with the right support at home.

shruikan2553

mickrock wrote: »

You think evolution was how the Earth got here?

Explain the Big Bang to him and how everything came from nothing.

Try explaining how a magical being made everything but nothing made him.

Brian Shanahan

mickrock wrote: »

You think evolution was how the Earth got here?

Explain the Big Bang to him and how everything came from nothing.

Or do what you do mick, and explain how a magical, invisible, unknowable and impossible being created the world c.6,000 years ago, yet made it look c.13bn years old, just to mess with us.


Along with all the other stuff, like giving us free will and curiosity and immediately punishing us infinitely for using them.

Driveby Dogboy

why would you even try to explain evolution to a 5 year old, especially when what they asked how the earth got here??

just say gas + dust, gravity, sun, planets. simples

why would you even, how would you,,, WHY???

Doctor Strange

Driveby Dogboy wrote: »

why would you even try to explain evolution to a 5 year old, especially when what they asked how the earth got here??

just say gas + dust, gravity, sun, planets. simples

why would you even, how would you,,, WHY???

Because otherwise they'll have it instilled in school that "Holy God did it". F**k. That. S**t.

Driveby Dogboy

the Catholic Church agrees with evolutionary theory, the only bit of evolution i learned in school, i learned in religion class,
just sayin'

Bannasidhe

Driveby Dogboy wrote: »

why would you even try to explain evolution to a 5 year old, especially when what they asked how the earth got here??

just say gas + dust, gravity, sun, planets. simples

why would you even, how would you,,, WHY???

How do you explain anything to a 5 year old?

Slowly, patiently and in small, simple steps. If they are having difficulty with these small, simple steps consider if the problem is with the teacher/pedagogy - not with the pupil.

Better then teaching them not to question then inform them 'God did it.'

Driveby Dogboy

"but where are the monkeys that havnt turned yet? Dad where? Dad where DAD!?!?"

expect a lot of that for the next 5 years

Zen65

mickrock wrote: »

Explain the Big Bang to him and how everything came from nothing.

Hmm, the Big Bang theory does not assert that everything came from nothing. The theory reaches a point in time (going backwards), which can be called a singularity, beyond which the theory cannot explain our universe.

Z

Driveby Dogboy

yeah, try explaining that to a five year old :rolleyes:

Bannasidhe

Driveby Dogboy wrote: »

"but where are the monkeys that havnt turned yet? Dad where? Dad where DAD!?!?"

expect a lot of that for the next 5 years

Not monkeys darling, more like apes. Do you know the difference between monkeys and apes? Lets look at some pictures...


Been there done that - now doing that with grandkids.

Zen65

Driveby Dogboy wrote: »

yeah, try explaining that to a five year old :rolleyes:

"Look son, I don't know everything, nobody does"

Bannasidhe

Zen65 wrote: »

"Look son, I don't know everything, nobody does"

...but I know how to find out about a lot of stuff. What would you like to look at today?

Sarky

Driveby Dogboy wrote: »

t the only bit of evolution i learned in school, i learned in religion class,

You know, I'd already kinda guessed that. Crazy lucky hunch, eh?

Hotblack Desiato

It's quite easy to explain 'difficult' stuff to a 5yo, armed with a basic knowledge of pop science and a lack of religious dogma

My 5yo daughter:
Knows that humans descended from ape-like creatures
Knows about dinosaurs and their extinction
Knows that birds have similarities to certain dinosaurs
Knows that mammals are distinct from egg-laying creatures
Knows that the earth goes around the sun
Knows that volcanoes spout up molten rock from below the surface

In answer to 'what/who made the Earth' I've tried to explain the basics of planetary accretion but that'll take a while :pac:

Driveby Dogboy

Sarky wrote: »

You know, I'd already kinda guessed that. Crazy lucky hunch, eh?

ah now, i'm not a mad religious freak, i'd be an agnostic if i was anything