When Routine turns to Violence

Scouser

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c8e_1375791012

in an instant

msg11

Scum. It is annoying the way people stand around either help or call for help, don't start taking pictures and videos.

da_hambo

msg11 wrote: »

Scum. It is annoying the way people stand around either help or call for help, don't start taking pictures and videos.

Scary stuff. Good post.

Scouser

9month sentence tho.......... joke really

he nearly gouged an officers eye out!

ratracer

msg11 wrote: »

Scum. It is annoying the way people stand around either help or call for help, don't start taking pictures and videos.

I understand your quote here, it really bugs the sh1t out of me when Joe Public decides it's a great idea to picture the ES under pressure at work. But looking at that vid and the one of the Gardai in Drogheda trying to restrain that scumbag, would police/AGS be receptive to a member of the public trying to assist them or would they view it as getting in their way/being another possible threat?

Old diesel

Seen that one before - it was part of a traffic cops episode.

The word horrendous doesn't do justice :mad:.

Judge should resign if he/she seriously thinks 6 months is adequate - ive news for him/her - it isn't.

Even putting a 0 after the 9 (90) wouldn't be anything like enough imo if we are talking months.

Rob32

9 months is a ridiculously low sentence for what he did, nevermind the drug charges on top!!

Mister Jingles

Seen that ages ago when it was first shown, fairly different to the stuff that you usually see on those shows, however I thought that they could of been more physical or violent with the suspect, maybe the bald officer could of drawn his asp or in simple english bet the bollox out of him. Saying that I suppose its easy for a civilian like me to say that.......

WilcoOut

Mister Jingles wrote: »

Seen that ages ago when it was first shown, fairly different to the stuff that you usually see on those shows, however I thought that they could of been more physical or violent with the suspect, maybe the bald officer could of drawn his asp or in simple english bet the bollox out of him. Saying that I suppose its easy for a civilian like me to say that.......

On 2 occassions that officer clenched his fist and drew back

but he did not strike

prob fearful of the camera recording him and possibly losing his job

WilcoOut

WilcoOut wrote: »

On 2 occassions that officer clenched his fist and drew back

but he did not strike

prob fearful of the camera recording him and possibly losing his job

I noticed that myself. I believe UK forces used to train officers to strike people in certain points for compliance. Maybe he received that training and may no longer be allowed use it.

Potential-Monke

It's easy to say the cop should have gave him a few belts, but it would be perceived as police brutality, regardless of the circumstances. While video evidence can be used to assist the police, it can also be used against them, when some over-paid solicitor can twist it so that it looks like the cop was being heavy handed. Which is sad really, as it leads to police not using adequate force for fear of legal proceedings against them. Now, i'm not saying that we should be allowed go in all guns blazing (so to speak), but having that doubt at the back of your mind plays a massive part when dealing with a violent prisoner.

Simple solution: give us tasers already! A quick zap to that lad and he'd be on the ground and easier to arrest. Plus, imo, it's the most effective non-lethal force option, ahead of pepper spray and the asp.

McCrack

Potential monke if you keep your interactions with people lawful and use force that is reasonable and proportionate you won't have any problems with "overpaid solicitors" "twisting" anything.

McCrack

McCrack wrote: »

Potential monke if you keep your interactions with people lawful and use force that is reasonable and proportionate you won't have any problems with "overpaid solicitors" "twisting" anything.

He never said to do anything unlawful.

McCrack

foreign wrote: »

He never said to do anything unlawful.

Yes but the point I'm making is Gardai get sued for one of two (or sometimes both) things:

1. Illegal/unlawful search and/arrest

2. Assault (excessive force used)

If Gardai keep the above in order they won't have any problems with "overpaid" solicitors "twisting" anything.

It's very simple really.

Leo Demidov

With all due respect, gardai work in highly stressful, potentially dangerous situations and do not have the benefit of adjournments, protracted meal breaks or law libraries to consult. They make decisions in the heat of the moment and generally with the best of intentions. I say generally.

McCrack

That's where training, experience and common sense come in.

If a particular member doesn't have at least one of those there's going to be problems.

Leo Demidov

I often find that trolls have none of the aforementioned attributes. I bid you adieu.

McCrack

McCrack wrote: »

Yes but the point I'm making is Gardai get sued for one of two (or sometimes both) things:

1. Illegal/unlawful search and/arrest

2. Assault (excessive force used)

If Gardai keep the above in order they won't have any problems with "overpaid" solicitors "twisting" anything.

It's very simple really.

And then you get people doing it for the laugh of to try frustrate their cases. Look at the Drogheda video. You can bet that the arrested lad in that would be straight down to GSOC after that. But his mate has put a video up on the internet for all the public to see him resisting arrest and smacking his own head off the car window. So now the mule won't have the stress of worrying about any potential investigation.

bumper234

McCrack wrote: »

Potential monke if you keep your interactions with people lawful and use force that is reasonable and proportionate you won't have any problems with "overpaid solicitors" "twisting" anything.

A couple of quick questions if i may.

When was the last time you were confronted by a potentially violent person and how did you deal with it.

When was the last time you were struck by someone repeatedly and how did you deal with?

McCrack

foreign wrote: »

And then you get people doing it for the laugh of to try frustrate their cases. Look at the Drogheda video. You can bet that the arrested lad in that would be straight down to GSOC after that. But his mate has put a video up on the internet for all the public to see him resisting arrest and smacking his own head off the car window. So now the mule won't have the stress of worrying about any potential investigation.

Fair point. In instances of bona fide prisoner self-harm what should the arresting member and any other witnesses and also MIC do?

@bumper234 this thread is not about me so I'm not going to be drawn into a discussion on my personal experiences to date

0325422

McCrack wrote: »

Fair point. In instances of bona fide prisoner self-harm what should the arresting member and any other witnesses and also MIC do?

@bumper234 this thread is not about me so I'm not going to be drawn into a discussion on my personal experiences to date

Write everything, as much as possible into the auld notebook and custody record and your sound out I'd be thinking

Potential-Monke

McCrack wrote: »

Potential monke if you keep your interactions with people lawful and use force that is reasonable and proportionate you won't have any problems with "overpaid solicitors" "twisting" anything.

I agree.

But, it doesn't matter. Sometimes you can do everything perfectly, but it seems to be easier these days for a criminal to be "protected" by the law rather than responsible for their own actions. It's easy for a criminal to cry assault or excessive force, when the force required would be needed to subdue in the first place.

But Joe Public can't see that. They see 3/4 Gardaí being "rough" with someone who is acting up/being violent. There is a usually a reason why it looks rough, and it's to protect your colleagues and the public from someone who decided that they're above the law, and who doesn't care for the safety of anyone else.

It's an old adage that unless you're a member, related to a member or good friends with a member, you really don't know what it's like. And the recurring trend of criminals making false accusations against legal arrests is having a massive effect on the ability of members to be able to carry out their duties without fear of possibly going to jail themselves for doing the work that no one else wants to do.

And of course, if a criminal was "assaulted" it would be all over the news the next day, but i still haven't seen any report of a colleague that was badly assaulted last night. Guardians of the peace? Targets of the criminals and media more like.

slavetothegrind

cant remember seeing any videos ever of a compliant person being arrested in an overly physical manner by AGS?

McCrack

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I agree.

But, it doesn't matter. Sometimes you can do everything perfectly, but it seems to be easier these days for a criminal to be "protected" by the law rather than responsible for their own actions. It's easy for a criminal to cry assault or excessive force, when the force required would be needed to subdue in the first place.

But Joe Public can't see that. They see 3/4 Gardaí being "rough" with someone who is acting up/being violent. There is a usually a reason why it looks rough, and it's to protect your colleagues and the public from someone who decided that they're above the law, and who doesn't care for the safety of anyone else.

It's an old adage that unless you're a member, related to a member or good friends with a member, you really don't know what it's like. And the recurring trend of criminals making false accusations against legal arrests is having a massive effect on the ability of members to be able to carry out their duties without fear of possibly going to jail themselves for doing the work that no one else wants to do.

And of course, if a criminal was "assaulted" it would be all over the news the next day, but i still haven't seen any report of a colleague that was badly assaulted last night. Guardians of the peace? Targets of the criminals and media more like.

I agree police are never going to win with the public or the media. However you are not directly answerable to them. You are directly answerable to management, GSOC and ultimately the courts for your actions.

The law on force hasn't changed since the previous two or three generations of Gardai that have gone before you. Also those Gardai didn't have the benefit of the training members get now as well as the equipment that is now issued to them.

What has changed is accountability. Gone is the old Garda Complaints Board replaced with the Ombudsman. People generally are more aware of their rights and are willing to stand up against any abuses of those rights.

It's checks and balances.

Again it comes down to training, experience and common sense.

Potential-Monke

McCrack wrote: »

Again it comes down to training, experience and common sense.

Training which should be ongoing and common, but is more or less once off and rare. People seem to think we're trained up to Robocop levels, where we know exactly what to do in each and every situation. The truth is we're shown how to tackle a non-violent colleague, not a 6'8" Polish tank high on coke and vodka (as an example, i could also have used traveller, criminal or psycho, to name but a few). And it's very easy to use a goose neck or thumb lock on someone who is told to slowly punch straight and not struggle, but next to impossible to do on someone who is hell bent on causing you harm.

Experience which can take years to obtain and usually does in most cases. Yes, we know what to expect in a lot of cases, but if we were to expect absolutely everything we wouldn't get very much done.

And common sense which can be frustrated with split decisions, it can be very easy to throw a punch in a lot of violent situations, but we have to make sure we don't do anything which can be seen as non-trained techniques, as management will wash their hands with you if you do something you weren't trained to do.

I don't know were you ever a Garda, or had a relative in the Gardaí, but everyone one of them will say it's very easy to tell us how to do our job, but those that tell us usually don't want to be the ones making the decisions and putting their safety on the line to ensure that you don't thread on a criminals rights, the same criminal who infringed on others rights to begin with.

And i agree that accountability is now a massive driving force within the Gardaí, but something that older or retired members might agree with is that this new softly softly approach is not working. It works with the regular layman, but criminals are getting it too easy with the judicial system and they know it, and are taking advantage of it. Some groups of people only understand (and possibly appreciate) one course of action, one which we daren't attempt nowadays.

Scouser

there is a massive section of our society who refer to the Gardai as the 'Love Police'

AGS is seen as a massive soft touch in comparison to policing from this sections home region

and having a go is both encouraged and acceptable as more than likely a slap on the wrist is all that will come from it

McCrack

McCrack wrote: »

Also those Gardai didn't have the benefit of the training members get now as well as the equipment that is now issued to them.

Restraint training is an absolute joke.

McCrack

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Training which should be ongoing and common, but is more or less once off and rare. People seem to think we're trained up to Robocop levels, where we know exactly what to do in each and every situation. The truth is we're shown how to tackle a non-violent colleague, not a 6'8" Polish tank high on coke and vodka (as an example, i could also have used traveller, criminal or psycho, to name but a few). And it's very easy to use a goose neck or thumb lock on someone who is told to slowly punch straight and not struggle, but next to impossible to do on someone who is hell bent on causing you harm.

Experience which can take years to obtain and usually does in most cases. Yes, we know what to expect in a lot of cases, but if we were to expect absolutely everything we wouldn't get very much done.

And common sense which can be frustrated with split decisions, it can be very easy to throw a punch in a lot of violent situations, but we have to make sure we don't do anything which can be seen as non-trained techniques, as management will wash their hands with you if you do something you weren't trained to do.

I don't know were you ever a Garda, or had a relative in the Gardaí, but everyone one of them will say it's very easy to tell us how to do our job, but those that tell us usually don't want to be the ones making the decisions and putting their safety on the line to ensure that you don't thread on a criminals rights, the same criminal who infringed on others rights to begin with.

And i agree that accountability is now a massive driving force within the Gardaí, but something that older or retired members might agree with is that this new softly softly approach is not working. It works with the regular layman, but criminals are getting it too easy with the judicial system and they know it, and are taking advantage of it. Some groups of people only understand (and possibly appreciate) one course of action, one which we daren't attempt nowadays.

Firstly I appreciate your willingness to engage in this discussion (as opposed to the ones that don't except to hit the thanks button) and I get a sense your views are honestly held.

The law on the use of force is as fair as can be. It protects you as much as it does them. A Garda as much as a private citizen can use force so long as its lawful, proportionate to the threat and reasonable. In other words you can meet fire with fire. This has always been the case, certainly 90 odd years now. How you use force and how much you use is a matter for you to decide based on the things I've already mentioned.

The heavy hand culture is gone and you're accountable now to an independent body. A Garda who is given certain rights and privileges is charged with upholding the law and he must work within it. This I think is what you have a problem with.

As well since the mid 1990's there's been a huge amount of criminal justice and road traffic legislation enacted all the time giving more and more powers to Gardai for investigating crime and detaining suspects as well as encroaching on suspects right to silence. The balance I believe has now tilted in favour of the Gardai in terms of powers given by law.

And then there's the equipment that you are now issued with to help control violent persons and also PPE that is fairly recent too.

I mean what more do you need? I appreciate there's also a good argument for arming Gardai but that's another days discussion.

njs030

At about 5 and a half mins the officer says it would be nice if someone helped in some way rather than watching, would that be actually helpful or would it add more stress to the situation i.e- worry about the person getting hurt or would it be a distraction as they approach?
Also is there any potential that the person being arrested could make a complaint about the 'helper' at any stage?

McCrack

McCrack wrote: »

Firstly I appreciate your willingness to engage in this discussion (as opposed to the ones that don't except to hit the thanks button) and I get a sense your views are honestly held.

The law on the use of force is as fair as can be. It protects you as much as it does them. A Garda as much as a private citizen can use force so long as its lawful, proportionate to the threat and reasonable. In other words you can meet fire with fire. This has always been the case, certainly 90 odd years now. How you use force and how much you use is a matter for you to decide based on the things I've already mentioned.

The heavy hand culture is gone and you're accountable now to an independent body. A Garda who is given certain rights and privileges is charged with upholding the law and he must work within it. This I think is what you have a problem with.

As well since the mid 1990's there's been a huge amount of criminal justice and road traffic legislation enacted all the time giving more and more powers to Gardai for investigating crime and detaining suspects as well as encroaching on suspects right to silence. The balance I believe has now tilted in favour of the Gardai in terms of powers given by law.

And then there's the equipment that you are now issued with to help control violent persons and also PPE that is fairly recent too.

I mean what more do you need? I appreciate there's also a good argument for arming Gardai but that's another days discussion.

Criminals still have their right to remain silent except in some circumstances when inferences can be drawn from that silence. You still can't be convicted on them alone.

Only ppe we have for restraint is handcuffs. And they can't stop you getting a kick in the face like I have received

notjustsweet

notjustsweet wrote: »

Also is there any potential that the person being arrested could make a complaint about the 'helper' at any stage?

Of course but unless you went over the top in your assistance like kicking a person, etc you wouldn't really have to worry. And people who assist a member and are assaulted fall under section 17 of the public order act. So same as assaulting a peace officer.

Zambia

McCrack wrote: »

I mean what more do you need? I appreciate there's also a good argument for arming Gardai but that's another days discussion.

Mk 9 foam canisters and tazers would help, full ballistic vests could also assist. PR 24 batons for foot patrol units and zip cuffs in case required. But that's an outsiders view I am sure ags members would have a better idea.

Plus I agree that if someone does not want to be in handcuffs it takes a lot to put them on.

dfbemt

There were a lot of comments about the bald officer not helping out the injured officer during the scuffle.

This episode is just on BBC at the moment. Turns out he had fractured his finger during the scuffle. Not shown on the liveleak video and back at the police station they found in the bike 24 bags of cannabis @ £20 per bag, enough for intent to supply charge and a search of his house.

Puts a different slant on the liveleak video

Potential-Monke

McCrack wrote: »

Firstly I appreciate your willingness to engage in this discussion (as opposed to the ones that don't except to hit the thanks button) and I get a sense your views are honestly held.

Thank you! It's hard enough to defend our job, as we have to be ever careful of what we say doesn't end up encroaching on a persons rights, and that we're constantly aware of the Official Secrets Act, the Code, the Guide, the Law, etc. I'm posting here as a person giving their view on the job, and not as an official representative of AGS.

McCrack wrote: »

The law on the use of force is as fair as can be. It protects you as much as it does them. A Garda as much as a private citizen can use force so long as its lawful, proportionate to the threat and reasonable. In other words you can meet fire with fire. This has always been the case, certainly 90 odd years now. How you use force and how much you use is a matter for you to decide based on the things I've already mentioned.

I agree that it's quite fair, but the one thing it doesn't factor in in this; when we use force, we have to be aware of the justifiable use, the legalities of it, the effect it may or may not have, the next course of action, if what we do is the correct course of action, can i legally stand behind my actions, etc. A criminal doesn't have to think about any of this, he just wants to either get away or cause harm. I know there isn't much we can do in that regards, but those decisions having to be made in milliseconds makes it harder for us.

McCrack wrote: »

The heavy hand culture is gone and you're accountable now to an independent body. A Garda who is given certain rights and privileges is charged with upholding the law and he must work within it. This I think is what you have a problem with.

I've no problem working within the law, my problem is that if i step so much as a toe outside it, i won't be backed up and my private life can take a hit because of it. The same criminal who i'm trying to arrest gets off lightly, usually. There needs to be more protection for us, stricter sentencing with no concurrent sentences. Criminals need to be properly punished for taking a certain course with AGS, and other emergency personnel, but it's rare that they are convicted of what they should be, a major case for this being Garda McCallion (RIP).

McCrack wrote: »

As well since the mid 1990's there's been a huge amount of criminal justice and road traffic legislation enacted all the time giving more and more powers to Gardai for investigating crime and detaining suspects as well as encroaching on suspects right to silence. The balance I believe has now tilted in favour of the Gardai in terms of powers given by law.

It's still far from in our favour. Granted, we have powers we never had in relation to major crime investigation, but for the average crime, burglary, robbery, theft, criminal damage, etc, the law is still in the favour of the criminal. The technicalities that criminals get off on, even if the evidence is overwhelming, is farcical. I can understand beyond reasonable doubt, it's necessary, but common sense should also play a part, and it doesn't.

McCrack wrote: »

And then there's the equipment that you are now issued with to help control violent persons and also PPE that is fairly recent too.

Pepper Spray can be effective, but not the whole time. The ASP is useful, but can lead to more problems than solutions. The stab vest is probably useful (i've not yet been stabbed, i don't know), but's it's cumbersome, it doesn't breathe and weighs quite a bit. It's the cheapest option they could get, in comparison to our colleages up North or across the water (an actual
vest!). Handcuffs ranging from loose, to semi-rigid, they should all be semi-rigid at least.

McCrack wrote: »

I mean what more do you need? I appreciate there's also a good argument for arming Gardai but that's another days discussion.

Tazers. Consistently proven to be the most effective non-lethal method of force out there. The amount of situations that can be resolved, or even prevented with the threat alone of one, is staggering. It stops (the majority of) people where they are. More effective than pepper spray or an ASP, with less mess and less chance of cross-contamination.

But, all this makes sense to me, and plenty of people i know. Just not to those with red on their shoulders... They only see €€€'s.