Is it even worth having a successful business in Ireland?

oneshot2shots

I have been thinking of setting up an online web design company. I realise that it will take at least a year to rank for the keywords to get on page 1. I don't want to go freelance as there is a misguided stigma about freelance webdesigners among businesses and they believe that a company who charges 2500 is superior than one who charges 600(probably so but not by the price difference). When my masters is finished in december I can work by day and work on the business by night so in a year or more it(and me) would be ready for business.

The problem is the business itself. As i have to set it up as a company or business I am wondering what the profit margins will be like and can't seem to wrap my head around how much I have to pay exactly. If I charged a client 800 euro, I would then have to take into account VAT at 23%, corporation tax at 12.5% and then when paying myself a dividend this "profit" would be personally taxed?? The idea of essentially working for those fools in the dail angers me.I'm trying to envisage it with the end in mind but at the moment I'm thinking of leaving it a few years - At which point I'll no doubt regret not growing the business the last few years

Do any business owners have any advice on what is the most favourable setup??

Graham

I don't think I could even begin to counter so many negative sentiments.

kippy

Online web design company - not a saturated market at all at all.

In fairness, you'd need a very good unique selling point to have any chance of actually worrying about those kind of things that you are currently worried about.

Setup as a sole trader, dont register for VAT until your hitting 50g's of income. Write off as many costs as you can legally, and then pay your income tax which is probably going to be the lower bracket for a while off the remaining figure.

I would say if your skills are good enough and are reflected in your portfolio, and you hit 100 people a day to sell your service, you will get enough business eventually. SEO and keywords is no substitute for a salesperson. Business would be wonderfully easy for all if thats all it took to get some customers.

Peterdalkey

You have lots of attitude, shag all experience... You are still a student apparently.. On the downside, you still need to figure out what it is you have to offer that is not already well catered for by experienced professionals. Hint: check out the queue outside your door!

Zascar

Very solid advice from El Rifle

Axwell

Start building a portfolio now - you have no reason not to be doing a few sites while you finish college seen as you were saying you were going to run the business by night anyways. Register a business name now, get a site up and start building a portfolio. Even if you just do mockups to start with and then try get some sites from local businesses and maybe do them at a cheaper rate starting off.

Come the end of your masters you will either find you have got little or no clients at all and its not the thing for you, in which case nothing lost and you can still go for that 9-5 job. Or you will have a few clients and a bit of a portfolio which you can then try build on by getting more work in and maybe putting more time into it.

GabbyJay

oneshot2shots wrote: »

I have been thinking of setting up an online web design company. I realise that it will take at least a year to rank for the keywords to get on page 1. I don't want to go freelance as there is a misguided stigma about freelance webdesigners among businesses and they believe that a company who charges 2500 is superior than one who charges 600(probably so but not by the price difference). When my masters is finished in december I can work by day and work on the business by night so in a year or more it(and me) would be ready for business.

The problem is the business itself. As i have to set it up as a company or business I am wondering what the profit margins will be like and can't seem to wrap my head around how much I have to pay exactly. If I charged a client 800 euro, I would then have to take into account VAT at 23%, corporation tax at 12.5% and then when paying myself a dividend this "profit" would be personally taxed?? The idea of essentially working for those fools in the dail angers me.I'm trying to envisage it with the end in mind but at the moment I'm thinking of leaving it a few years - At which point I'll no doubt regret not growing the business the last few years

Do any business owners have any advice on what is the most favourable setup??

VAT at 23% is added to the invoice on top of the cost of your services and returned to the client afterwards, so it's not really spending. Corporate tax only applies on the profit, and with a tech startup you might be eligible for a tax exemption for a few years on profits -> 0% corporate tax.

So to answer your question - is it worth having a successful business in Ireland? Of course it is! It's one of the best companies in the world to have a successful business in due to the famously low corporate tax rate and incentives. You're absolutely not paying for drinks behind the Dail bar, on the contrary, Ireland takes very little from its successful companies.

Whether or not you would be able to make this business successful or not - that's an entirely different kettle of fish. Do you have more information about the type of work that you intend to do?

LukeQuietus

A web designer you may be but an SEO expert you are not. Keywords are a thing of the past. If you want to get into page one (in a highly competitive area like webdesign where your SEO is going up against some of the best around) you'd want to start working on that now.

Beyond that, I agree with the other comments about doing sites for people now. A year ago I was all geared up to set up my own design company. Then I started meeting clients and I realised it wasn't gonna happen.

In order, you'll face these problems when starting out:
1. They'll be all go go go until you metion money and then they disappear off the face of the earth. And this is after you've already spent two weeks contacting them and meeting them and wasting you're own time trying to get the job.
2. You'll take on anything just to get some work and a bit of rep / build a portfolio. Problem is you'll end up selling your services for too low a price and taking on clients who are problemattic. Clients who hire people on how much they charge and don't care about a portfolio are 80% problem clients who'll drain your will to live and/or do web design.
3. They won't give you the materials you need to finish the job. Like text and images. They seem to thing once you go off and get started you'll magically learn everything there is to know about THEIR business and write all the content for them.
4. They'll never appreciate what it takes to make a website. They'll talk about it as if it's drawing pictures and just typing words in boxes. Expect no real appreciation that it takes a broad range of skills from design, color theory, typography and knowloedge of complex program suites and IDEs to knowing a minimum of three languages like HTML, CSSS, Javascript/jQuery on through PHP, MySQL, MongoDB, NodeJS, .NET, Ruby etc. They just don't care. But we have to care about their business a whole bunch to do our job for them.

If you don't mind all that (and trust me it will ALL happen at least once) then I wish you the best of luck.

ht9zni1gs28crp

Do the first few for free providing they are for a highly visual company. Your portfolio is off and running.

I set up my own business in my spare time. I worked all hours in the evening and weekends and still maintained a normal job. After a while I went to a four day week. Once there was enough in the bank to cover 6 months min wages and enough of a model to prove it was sustainable I jumped in full time. Havent looked back since!

LukeQuietus

Peyton Black Word wrote: »

Do the first few for free providing they are for a highly visual company. Your portfolio is off and running.

I set up my own business in my spare time. I worked all hours in the evening and weekends and still maintained a normal job. After a while I went to a four day week. Once there was enough in the bank to cover 6 months min wages and enough of a model to prove it was sustainable I jumped in full time. Havent looked back since!

DO NOT DO THE FIRST FEW FOR FREE!!! That's dreadful advice. Like I said, clients who look for a designer / developer on how much they charge are going to be useless for future business. They'll never be happy and they'll never give you future refferals, which web design companies rely on.

ht9zni1gs28crp

LukeQuietus wrote: »

DO NOT DO THE FIRST FEW FOR FREE!!! That's dreadful advice. Like I said, clients who look for a designer / developer on how much they charge are going to be useless for future business. They'll never be happy and they'll never give you future refferals, which web design companies rely on.

Okay then, what's your suggestion to provide an impact that tells clients to choose you as a fish in an already overloaded shoal? Why should a company take a risk on someone charging similar to competitors with a track record?

smash

Peyton Black Word wrote: »

Okay then, what's your suggestion to provide an impact that tells clients to choose you as a fish in an already overloaded shoal? Why should a company take a risk on someone charging similar to competitors with a track record?

How about to not leave college and set up a web design company... go and work, get real world experience and build up your portfolio and contacts!

kkelliher

There is nothing more rewarding than getting up every day and working hard to get your own entity out there and making money for yourself. Irrespective of what country you are in it is always going to be worth your while to have success.

Cianos

Peyton Black Word wrote: »

Okay then, what's your suggestion to provide an impact that tells clients to choose you as a fish in an already overloaded shoal? Why should a company take a risk on someone charging similar to competitors with a track record?

Word of mouth, building a connection and personal referrals is much more important than aligning yourself with your competitors and succumbing to being 'just another fish'.

The average company doesn't want to go trawling through tonnes of portfolio websites - there's too much to consider and too little between each candidate for them to be confident they're making the correct choice.

The majority of the time they'll ask around for a recommendation, or check who designed their competitor's website, or pretty much the first person they encounter via a personal connection who 'does websites' will get the job

That's why it's important to look after your clients. Work on the connections you do have and go from there. It'll be a very slow start but if you're good you'll build up a decent portfolio that will result in future referrals.

And don't undersell yourself. In many ways people are more comfortable spending money on something than getting it for free, because that way you are committed to doing the job and doing it right. If you do it for free they can't ask you what's taking so long, or ask you to revise x, y and z. They expect a standard and they're willing to pay for that standard.

Let them see that they're getting value for money and they'll sing your praises.

LukeQuietus

Family and friends are usually the first few clients you'll get. They'll refer you on to others once your work is good. You might do them cheap (like a family / friend rate) but the trade off is that they'll spread the word. From there you'll have a portfolio and you can start charging a proper fee. Besides, a website isn't a one off thing. Once someone gets a website done by you they'll be back anytime they need some new feature or when they've messed something up. It's transactional vs. relational clientele. You want relational business which is built on familiarity and trust, not reveolving around price and only price. When someone mons about the price you just clearly explain the whole process so they understand it. If they still think it's too high you can negotiate but you should be looking out for the red flags. Sometimes it's easier to just point them to a cheaper company and wish them luck.

anbrutog

It most certainly is worth having a business in Ireland.

But you have to remember you're in the marketing business first , and whatever it is your business produces second (which is in your case web design)

Remember people ain't interested in buying a web site. They dont give a damn whether its made with PHP, Wordpress , HTML or whether you put it together with paper mache and sticky tape.

They're interested in what a web site will do for them ( get them more leads ,more customers , less hassle, more money, save time ..whatever )

With that, here's what I would do...

• Learn direct response marketing before anything else ( stay away from anything to do brand or image advertising, its garbage ). Learn how to write compelling copy.
• Hone your USP.
• Drive traffic to an opt-in page using Adwords/Facebook ads. Forget about SEO, its too much of a black box these days and that's something that will only get worse with time as the Big G becomes ever more capricious. Besides, competition for web design keywords is ridiculous. As a previous poster said you're up against the best of the best.
• Build a list
• Work your list by emailing them regularly , at least 3 times a week. Personally I'd go for 5 times.
• Get customers.

It doesn't matter how good your work is or isn't. You could have the best portfolio in the world but if nobody knows about it, you ain't going to make any money.

If you don't have sales funnels in place that bring you a steady stream of leads, you're out of business.
If you don't know marketing , you will go broke unless you get lucky with a constant stream of referrals.
This can happen, don't get me wrong, but odds are it won't.

Best of luck with it all.

bbam

Nobody has mentioned capital. If
Your just coming out of college have you funds available to get it off the ground?

anbrutog

bbam wrote: »

Nobody has mentioned capital. If
Your just coming out of college have you funds available to get it off the ground?

For a web design business , you would arguably need very little.

You could start it from your home with a few google adwords vouchers in theory. Its not a normal bricks and mortar business where you would potentially need to hire staff , have overheads like rent,electricity etc...

Don't get me wrong , you will need some money but it could easily be done on a shoestring.

businessdit

anbrutog wrote: »

[*]Work your list by emailing them regularly , at least 3 times a week. Personally I'd go for 5 times.

With respect, I hope you are kidding...

anbrutog

businessdit wrote: »

With respect, I hope you are kidding...

Nope. Why would I be?

businessdit

anbrutog wrote: »

Nope. Why would I be?

Well if someone (a business) sent you mail 5 times per week would you like that?

1) At this frequency quality of the information in the mail is probably going to be very poor.
2) The recipients become immune to getting the mails so never open them.
3) At this frequency these mails will be unwanted mails. There is more than a whiff of spamming here, and this will only lead to unsubscribes.

anbrutog

businessdit wrote: »

Well if someone (a business) sent you mail 5 times per week would you like that?

I'm subscribed to many lists , all of which email me AT LEAST 5 times a week.
And I love getting emails from them.

Why?

Well...they get my attention because what they have to say is humourous, witty, intelligent, engaging , interesting, educational and relevant.
Yes , they are selling me their wares , but because they provide value in other ways, they get opened and read.

businessdit wrote: »

1) At this frequency quality of the information in the mail is probably going to be very poor.

Nonsense. If you've a vivid enough imagination , there's no end of interesting things to email about.

businessdit wrote: »

2) The recipients become immune to getting the mails so never open them.

Again , not true. There will always be a section of your list who will never open your emails for whatever reason , but if you've positioned your self correctly and have taken the time to develop a solid relationship with them, enough of them will open your emails. For my own list, if I go on holiday or for whatver reason I dont email for a while, I regularly get emails asking is there anything with me, am I okay etc.. They've come to expect my emails every day and they enjoy them and get value from them. They most definitely aren't immune to what Ive got to say..

businessdit wrote: »

2) At this frequency these mails will be unwanted mails. There is more than a whiff of spamming here, and this will only lead to unsubscribes

No they're not. Everyone who signs up to my list does so at their own volition. No one is forced or coerced into doing so. I'm ultra clear as to what they are getting into, how many emails they're going to get, what I talk about, how I sometimes use bad language, how I do this and how I do that. No one is lied to. Everyone knows the score.

On that basis, it isn't spam, because its very clear from the outset whats going on.

If they're dumb enough to moan about it after the fact ( and yes , I do get the odd fool who is too stupid to read what they should expect from me when they first sign up ), then that is their problem, not mine.

The trick to emailing regularly is to inject some of your personality into what you say.
If you email every day sounding like a boring corporate drone, yes people will most definitely unsubscribe.

But if you talk to your list on a person to person basis like you would a mate down the pub, believe me something entirely different happens.

businessdit

anbrutog wrote: »

I'm subscribed to many lists , all of which email me AT LEAST 5 times a week.
And I love getting emails from them.

Why?

Well...they get my attention because what they have to say is humourous, witty, intelligent, engaging , interesting, educational and relevant.
Yes , they are selling me their wares , but because they provide value in other ways, they get opened and read.



Nonsense. If you've a vivid enough imagination , there's no end of interesting things to email about.


Again , not true. There will always be a section of your list who will never open your emails for whatever reason , but if you've positioned your self correctly and have taken the time to develop a solid relationship with them, enough of them will open your emails. For my own list, if I go on holiday or for whatver reason I dont email for a while, I regularly get emails asking is there anything with me, am I okay etc.. They've come to expect my emails every day and they enjoy them and get value from them. They most definitely aren't immune to what Ive got to say..



No they're not. Everyone who signs up to my list does so at their own volition. No one is forced or coerced into doing so. I'm ultra clear as to what they are getting into, how many emails they're going to get, what I talk about, how I sometimes use bad language, how I do this and how I do that. No one is lied to. Everyone knows the score.

On that basis, it isn't spam, because its very clear from the outset whats going on.

If they're dumb enough to moan about it after the fact ( and yes , I do get the odd fool who is too stupid to read what they should expect from me when they first sign up ), then that is their problem, not mine.

The trick to emailing regularly is to inject some of your personality into what you say.
If you email every day sounding like a boring corporate drone, yes people will most definitely unsubscribe.

But if you talk to your list on a person to person basis like you would a mate down the pub, believe me something entirely different happens.

Hey thanks for your input, you make a good argument.

I personally find it very hard to understand how a SMB owner would have enough time to create 5+ emails per week of the quality you are talking about...

Some pretty AMAZING content would have to be developed. Meaning someone would have to be working full time in the background to develop this content... Its not practical for a small biz owner to spend the day thinking up content for a daily newsletter only for it to be sent out to a small list of subscribers.

Tell you what... Add me to your mailing list and lets see if you practice what you preach. You can most certainly talk the talk about this topic (and I respect that) , but can you walk the walk..?

Where do I sign up?

anbrutog

businessdit wrote: »

Hey thanks for your input, you make a good argument.

I personally find it very hard to understand how a SMB owner would have enough time to create 5+ emails per week of the quality you are talking about...

Some pretty AMAZING content would have to be developed. Meaning someone would have to be working full time in the background to develop this content... Its not practical for a small biz owner to spend the day thinking up content for a daily newsletter only for it to be sent out to a small list of subscribers.

Tell you what... Add me to your mailing list and lets see if you practice what you preach. You can most certainly talk the talk about this topic (and I respect that) , but can you walk the walk..?

Where do I sign up?

Ill send you a PM...

beauf

Also curious can I sign up to.

anbrutog

beauf wrote: »

Also curious can I sign up to.

No worries. If anyone wants be added , send me a PM.

anbrutog

businessdit wrote: »

Hey thanks for your input, you make a good argument.

I personally find it very hard to understand how a SMB owner would have enough time to create 5+ emails per week of the quality you are talking about...

Some pretty AMAZING content would have to be developed. Meaning someone would have to be working full time in the background to develop this content... Its not practical for a small biz owner to spend the day thinking up content for a daily newsletter only for it to be sent out to a small list of subscribers.

Tell you what... Add me to your mailing list and lets see if you practice what you preach. You can most certainly talk the talk about this topic (and I respect that) , but can you walk the walk..?

Where do I sign up?

Yeah I totally understand where you're coming from , and being honest until I saw how to do myself I would have skeptical.

In terms of time, well its like anything once you get good at it, when you gain a certain amount of competence you can knock out emails in a matter of minutes.

Make no mistake , its hard work at the beginning , especially if you've no writing experience, but its easier the more you do it.

gargargar

businessdit wrote: »

Hey thanks for your input, you make a good argument.

I personally find it very hard to understand how a SMB owner would have enough time to create 5+ emails per week of the quality you are talking about...

Some pretty AMAZING content would have to be developed. Meaning someone would have to be working full time in the background to develop this content... Its not practical for a small biz owner to spend the day thinking up content for a daily newsletter only for it to be sent out to a small list of subscribers.

Tell you what... Add me to your mailing list and lets see if you practice what you preach. You can most certainly talk the talk about this topic (and I respect that) , but can you walk the walk..?

Where do I sign up?

No businessdit, you were right the first time. This is terrible advice.

I can't think of any SME that I would be happy to receive a mail every day from. From a news site yes, but some design company or courier, no way.

anbrutog

gargargar wrote: »

No businessdit, you were right the first time. This is terrible advice.

I can't think of any SME that I would be happy to receive a mail every day from. From a news site yes, but some design company or courier, no way.

I'm guessing you've tested this hypothesis out thoroughly and know this for a fact, I take it?

Listen, it all depends on what you got to say and how you say it.

The reason you don't think it'll work is because you're used to dull corporate style emails clogging up your inbox.

And yes, if you do it that way, it ain't going to work.

So I do understand your skepticism.

What I do is make my emails fun, interesting and entertaining. "Infotaining", if you will.
But always its done with ultimate aim of selling my products and services.

If you do that , people will open them and look forward to them , as I've previously stated.
And they will buy from you.

There's a goldmine of opportunity to be had with email marketing IF you do it correctly ( ie talk like a human being and not a soulless corporation relentlessly plugging their product )

Make no mistake , its hard bloody work but if you're willing to put in the effort, it'll pay off handsomely.

If you want examples that prove what I'm saying, Ill be happy to show anyone that PM's me.

Peterdalkey

Brilliantly argued, but absolute twaddle, if it is supposed to represent B2B marketing advice. High quality spam/sh*te is still spam/sh*te! News is different, but no SME or even MNC has that amount of INTERESTING news or advice.

If you have the recipe for what you are using, in any legal ingestable form, I would be interested in investing substantial funds in your compound.

anbrutog

Peterdalkey wrote: »

but no SME or even MNC has that amount of INTERESTING news or advice.

You know this for a fact, do you?

Peter . we live in a world of almost 7 billion people.
I dunno if you've noticed, but theres a lot of stuff going on out there.

There is no end of things for me to talk about in my daily emails.

I talk about politics , religion, my cat , the weather , GAA , anything and everything I can think of and tie it to my services.

There's no end of things to discuss, so long you make it interesting and relevant to your readers.

Note the last two underlined words. They'll distinguish it from 'High Quality Spam S**te' to stuff they actually want to read about.

Peterdalkey

anbrutog wrote: »

You know this for a fact, do you?

I guess all the clients I've managed to get through list building have just been figments of my imagination.

Ah well. I suppose I should just go back to being 'engaging' on Facebook and building my brand..

If I had what you claim to have, I would too.

anbrutog

Peterdalkey wrote: »

If I had what you claim to have, I would too.

Strange that I'm having to go to such lengths to defend something which in the rest of the world ( especially the States ) is such common practice.

Guess we've a long way to go here.

Peterdalkey

anbrutog wrote: »

Strange that I'm having to go to such lengths to defend something which in the rest of the world ( especially the States ) is such common practice.

Guess we've a long way to go here.

Just over 3000 miles!

seosamh1980

I would dislike a business immediately if they emailed me 3-5 times a week. Just like the friend on facebook who posts too many statuses in a week, doesn't take long to get sick of it.

anbrutog

seosamh1980 wrote: »

I would dislike a business immediately if they emailed me 3-5 times a week. Just like the friend on facebook who posts too many statuses in a week, doesn't take long to get sick of it.

Would you dislike a business who emailed you three to five times a week with information that was relevant and interesting to you , things that you wanted to hear about?

As opposed to nonsensical warblings on Facebook?

Therein lies the distinction that seems to evading most people.

seosamh1980

anbrutog wrote: »

Would you dislike a business who emailed you three to five times a week with information that was relevant and interesting to you , things that you wanted to hear about?

As opposed to nonsensical warblings on Facebook?

Therein lies the distinction that seems to evading most people.

Yes, I would. Nothing could be relevant and interesting enough that would require 3-5 separate emails. If I get more than one email every fortnight I unsubscribe from newsletters, quality not quantity is what I prefer, 3-5 a week goes in the nonsensical ramblings list regardless of content, because if I'm getting that many I would consider it spam. Forget about private profiles on facebook, business pages that post more than 2-3 times a week bother me just as much, as for ones that post 3+ times a day, instantly unliked.

anbrutog

seosamh1980 wrote: »

Yes, I would. Nothing could be relevant and interesting enough that would require 3-5 separate emails. If I get more than one email every fortnight I unsubscribe from newsletters, quality not quantity is what I prefer, 3-5 a week goes in the nonsensical ramblings list regardless of content, because if I'm getting that many I would consider it spam. Forget about private profiles on facebook, business pages that post more than 2-3 times a week bother me just as much, as for ones that post 3+ times a day, instantly unliked.

All depends on whats being said.
Believe me people will listen if its interesting to them.
Note the underlined word.

Will every last one? Of course not, and you're testament to that fact.

It's a numbers game. Its a bit like saying direct mail doesn't work as a marketing tool because you sent out 10 sales letters and got no replies.
Send out a thousand with a message that's of interest to a carefully chosen target market however, and it will be a different story.

Make your emails relevant and something they would want to read and enough people will open your emails, and respond positively.

Anyways, Ive said all I can say on the subject.

I would ask that people open to their mind to it, and do some research before deciding that it definitely doesn't work.

businessdit

anbrutog wrote: »

I talk about ......, ......, my cat, anything and everything I can think of and tie it to my services..

anbrutog wrote: »

...stuff they actually want to read about.

anbrutog wrote: »

so long you make it interesting and relevant to your readers.

Who wants to read about your cat..? I cant see how this is in any way interesting and relevant to your readers...

I look forward to receiving the emails anyway. Lets see how long I last!

anbrutog

businessdit wrote: »

Who wants to read about your cat..? I cant see how this is in any way interesting and relevant to your readers...

I look forward to receiving the emails anyway. Lets see how long I last!

Jesus H ...its an example.
In fact ,I've probably only mentioned the little fecker once in passing come to think of it.

It could be anything at all.

Take your pick.

Anything but the dry , boring , corporate nonsense you see peddled from big companies in their emails.

Just trying to prove the point you can take anything whatsover , deliver it in an entertaining and interesting way and tie it into the product or service you sell. It takes imagination but that's the gist..

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Guys, like I said there's a whole world of interesting stuff happening out there that you can use to market yourself.
The possibilities are endless.

Go forth and use your imagination.

jetsonx

Peterdalkey wrote: »

but no SME or even MNC has that amount of INTERESTING news or advice.

It does not have to be interesting news from an SME or MNC specifically. Along as your email informs, entertains and is relevant; that is the key.

Take Frank Rumbauskas, for example, he writes about sales. He does an email shot about once every 3-4 weeks. Almost everyone of his emails has a unique and interesting perspective on sales that gets me thinking "That is what I always thought at the back of my mind but never heard expressed in writing before" OR his emails will simply get me thinking "I never thought of it that way". His advice is down-to-earth, sometimes counter-intuitive and sometimes just entertaining. I have yet to unsubscribe.

So, here we have it. Somebody writing about one of the oldest professions in the world and is able to do it in a fresh and interesting way. AFAIK, his mailing list is huge and unsubscribe rate is low.

Big corporates and badly marketed SMEs give email marketing a very bad name sending out sales-driven dross.

As Anbrutog says, you just have to use your imagination.

anbrutog

jetsonx wrote: »

It does not have to be interesting news from an SME or MNC specifically. Along as your email informs, entertains and is relevant; that is the key.

Take Frank Rumbauskas, for example, he writes about sales. He does an email shot about once every 3-4 weeks. Almost everyone of his emails has a unique and interesting perspective on sales that gets me thinking "That is what I always thought at the back of my mind but never heard expressed in writing before" OR his emails will simply get me thinking "I never thought of it that way". His advice is down-to-earth, sometimes counter-intuitive and sometimes just entertaining. I have yet to unsubscribe.

So, here we have it. Somebody writing about one of the oldest professions in the world and is able to do it in a fresh and interesting way. AFAIK, his mailing list is huge and unsubscribe rate is low.

Big corporates and badly marketed SMEs give email marketing a very bad name sending out sales-driven dross.

As Anbrutog says, you just have to use your imagination.

Spot on.

Seth Godin is a great example of someone who emails daily yet always has something on point to deliver.

Yet no body considers him a spammer.

I wonder why?

jetsonx

Exactly, Seth Godin informs and entertains.

You never find Seth Godin emailing you a special offer on one of his books. Never.

Cianos

How sure are you that you're getting the response you think you are? An opened email doesn't mean that the mail is read, it could just mean they opened it to delete it (like I do on my phone) or their email client opens it by default.

If you're getting definite results from it then fair play. I personally don't like newsletters but I'm sure plenty of people out there are happy to read through a regular mail that they find entertaining.

I'd just encourage you to confirm for 100% certainty that you're getting the response you think you are, from as many people that you think you are.

anbrutog

Cianos wrote: »

How sure are you that you're getting the response you think you are? An opened email doesn't mean that the mail is read, it could just mean they opened it to delete it (like I do on my phone) or their email client opens it by default.

If you're getting definite results from it then fair play. I personally don't like newsletters but I'm sure plenty of people out there are happy to read through a regular mail that they find entertaining.

I'd just encourage you to confirm for 100% certainty that you're getting the response you think you are, from as many people that you think you are.

Very simple really.

The number of emails from people telling me they like what I write, and the number of clients I get via my list.

jetsonx

Cianos wrote: »

I'd just encourage you to confirm for 100% certainty that you're getting the response you think you are, from as many people that you think you are.

I hate this sort of short-term quick-win thinking.

Good marketing is a slow burn process. Nobody will ever know whether something like a newsletter converts immediately. The point is the person is already in your sales funnel.

If you send out a newsletter for candlesticks, for example, they might not need candlesticks...but when they do actually need them, your business will be top of their mind. They will most likely pick you because they feel they have an affinity for your business. There will even be cases where a consumer picks brand X because they have seen it mentioned somewhere before. Therefore, they choose your brand subconsciously.

Well managed brands like Lexus and Nespresso know how this process works.

Atomico

It's interesting as I only just signed up for a new newsletter this week, so far I have gotten three emails and I am enjoying them mainly because:

-I have a keen interest in the area (obviously).
-The emails are informal and while you can see the sales angle, it's not overly 'salesy'.
-They make you think and present information in an interesting way. It's not the same old stuff you see people going on about all the time. The mails strike the right tone and can be witty.
-There is a conversational tone and a casual feel, but the info is still good.

Email marketing can be hugely effective. If you build up a significant list and get a good response in terms of leads / inquiries / sales, then you can be sure you're doing something right. So I think the key takeaways are:

-Be interesting and informal.
-Use a conversational tone.
-Present solid info in an interesting way and inject it with some wit, and maybe some 'quirky' elements.

anbrutog

jetsonx wrote: »

I hate this sort of short-term quick-win thinking.

Good marketing is a slow burn process. Nobody will ever know whether something like a newsletter converts immediately. The point is the person is already in your sales funnel.

If you send out a newsletter for candlesticks, for example, they might not need candlesticks...but when they do actually need them, your business will be top of their mind. They will most likely pick you because they feel they have an affinity for your business. There will even be cases where a consumer picks brand X because they have seen it mentioned somewhere before. Therefore, they choose your brand subconsciously.

Well managed brands like Lexus and Nespresso know how this process works.

That's exactly what I'm trying to achieve.

To use an analogy, I'm in the business of building long term relationships, not a load of random one night stands.

Unfortunately most businesses don't make this distinction and never take the time to construct sales funnels that bring them leads over a long period of time, and as such they're constantly out there trying to get business using all sorts of woefully ineffective marketing media.

If you develop robust sales funnels and from them create solid relationships with these generated leads, you will be at that top of your mind when they do eventually need to buy the product you sell, as Jetsonx has so rightly pointed out.

Atomico

jetsonx wrote: »

If you send out a newsletter for candlesticks, for example, they might not need candlesticks...but when they do actually need them, your business will be top of their mind. They will most likely pick you because they feel they have an affinity for your business. There will even be cases where a consumer picks brand X because they have seen it mentioned somewhere before. Therefore, they choose your brand subconsciously.

Well managed brands like Lexus and Nespresso know how this process works.

This is so true, actually if I was buying a coffee machine it would probably be a Nespresso - I don't even know of any other brands!

The whole point is to build a positive relationship over time with those who are likely to need / want your products or services. If that relationship is there, when they need your services, how likely is it that they will choose a random competitor they don't really know, over you?

jetsonx

anbrutog wrote: »

Unfortunately most businesses don't make this distinction and never take the time to construct sales funnels that bring them leads over a long period of time, and as such they're constantly out there trying to get business using all sorts of woefully ineffective marketing media.

And these are the very business owners you will find interviewed on newspapers and radio grumbling about how bad the economy is. (Yes, the economy is bad, but have you noticed the amount of 2013 registered cars on the road?...hey guess what...people are still buying)

If you go into these businesses their marketing is, as you have rightfully pointed out, woeful. Most of it is ad-hoc. None of it is systematic. Most don't even know the meaning of term "sales funnel". Possibly, the most tragic thing of all is you have the owner of the business who are still clinging on to the very conceited notion that most of their business comes word-of-mouth. Word-of-mouth is great but it is never enough to sustain a viable business (that is not reliant on crony capitalism). Hence, these are the very business owners who will be twiddling their thumbs moaning and doing interviews in the media when they should really working on building effective and systematic marketing processes.