The elephant in the room: how do we employ the idiots?

ardmacha

I just can't see a small open economy being able to sustain much low-skilled employment. There'll always be some low-skilled services work available but when we're too expensive to compete internationally in the low-skilled manufacturing industry we end up with a large minority of the population who our economy can't provide with employment.

We need to maximise geographically situated industries like agribusiness, forestry and even oil, gas and mining. Likewise tourism, although this make conflict somewhat with the previous.

Then we need to maximise the comeptitive sector and structure the economy to encourage those employed in this sector to avail of services.

Sleep: A much larger percentage of our society are raised to view education or intellectualism with disdain

Sadly, this includes many in government including the Dept of Education and Dept of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation.

miss tickle

ardmacha wrote: »

We need to maximise geographically situated industries like agribusiness, forestry and even oil, gas and mining. Likewise tourism, although this make conflict somewhat with the previous.

Then we need to maximise the comeptitive sector and structure the economy to encourage those employed in this sector to avail of services.



Sadly, this includes many in government including the Dept of Education and Dept of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation.

Ok, we need to maximise the above, agri, oil, gas, tourism, forestry((why?), only because i don't understand the forestry business).
How do we maximise the competitive sector?
How do we effectively affect their bottom line salary in a way that will encentivise them to avail of local services.

chopper6

AlekSmart wrote: »

I believe that Sleepy's use of the word "Idiot" has led to a rush of blood to the communal head,along with much scrambling for the high-ground,moral and otherwise.

However,for me the resonant line in his OP is this...


Is "Idiot" the correct word to describe those who have raised,and continue to raise their children thus ?

If it's not,then what word or words can be used to describe that percentage ?

The size of that percentage and the speed at which it is increasing is,I believe,one of the greatest threats this country faces in ever regaining an even Social or Financial keel.

"Intellectualism"?

Is this a person who spends thier life in college without ever working or is it somebody who in thier own mind is better than everybody else?

I've been around a long time and i've never met an intelligent person who'd actually have the Gall to call themselves an "intellectual".

Sleepy

From wikipedia: Anti-intellectualism is hostility towards and mistrust of intellect, intellectuals, and intellectual pursuits, usually expressed as the derision of education, philosophy, literature, art, and science, as impractical and contemptible.

Isaac Asimov wrote:

Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thred winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.

chopper6

Sleepy wrote: »

From wikipedia: Anti-intellectualism is hostility towards and mistrust of intellect, intellectuals, and intellectual pursuits, usually expressed as the derision of education, philosophy, literature, art, and science, as impractical and contemptible.

Thanks for the explanation...can you tell me what "intellectualism" or "anti intellectualism" has to do with the Irish Economy?

I maybe wrong but Intellectuals and people who indulge themselves in Literature and Art arent exactly known for thier work ethic.

I know people in thier 40's who are still studying and are living off state grants as they insist on learning more and more about less and less.

Sleepy

Can you climb down from your outrage to engage in the conversation? Or are you just interested in trying to score points?

A culture that holds education in disdain results in an uneducated demographic. It's my contention that our small, open economy can't sustain a large number of jobs for the uneducated.

Do you refute that hypothesis?

chopper6

Sleepy wrote: »

A culture that holds education in disdain results in an uneducated demographic. It's my contention that our small, open economy can't sustain a large number of jobs for the uneducated.

Do you refute that hypothesis?

Where do you get the idea that irish people are uneducated?

Where do you get the idea that "irish culture" holds "education in disdain"?

Maybe i'm not as intellectual as you but i was under the distinct impression that our compulsary 2nd level and free 3rd level education resulted in a population that's very well educated indeed.


Perhaps you think that people who work in IT(like yourself) are an intellectual elite and everybody else is a moron?

thetwangman

Ireland does not have a culture that holds education in disdain. Most people go on to third level these days. We actually have more graduates than we can sustain. Over-investing time and money at the high end is a big mistake in my opinion. We are not all going to get jobs at the high end, the OP is right there, but it is not because we are idiots. I actually think it would be wiser to spend some of the money spent on higher education on job creation at the lower end.

Sleepy

chopper6 wrote: »

Where do you get the idea that irish people are uneducated?

Where do you get the idea that "irish culture" holds "education in disdain"?

Maybe i'm not as intellectual as you but i was under the distinct impression that our compulsary 2nd level and free 3rd level education resulted in a population that's very well educated indeed.

Perhaps you think that people who work in IT(like yourself) are an intellectual elite and everybody else is a moron?

As mentioned in my very first post, we have a significant minority who hold education in disdain. A large number of those on our live register are the types who left school (either early or on completion of their leaving cert) and went straight to work as unskilled labourers in the construction sector or as shop assistants or similar low level sevices workers.

Some of these people can be re-trained, some can't, and it seems that quite a few have their head in the sand waiting for the boom to come back.

Sleepy

thetwangman wrote: »

Ireland does not have a culture that holds education in disdain. Most people go on to third level these days. We actually have more graduates than we can sustain. Over-investing time and money at the high end is a big mistake in my opinion. We are not all going to get jobs at the high end, the OP is right there, but it is not because we are idiots. I actually think it would be wiser to spend some of the money spent on higher education on job creation at the lower end.

We certainly have too many graduates whose area of study renders them unemployable so I'd agree that less public investment in many of these courses could be a good thing but not, frankly, if it's pumped into more safe pass type courses via the money-pit that is FÁS. The part of your post I've bolded is, in effect, what I'm asking. Which industries can we encourage private enterprise to engage in that will provide high levels of employment for low-skilled workers?

Manufacturing is out as the wage levels it could provide wouldn't be able to compete with our welfare system and cost wise we simply can't compete with the rest of the world.

Construction? I think we know where that leads...

Retail? It's becoming less labour intensive via self-service checkouts, lower service retailers such as Lidl/Aldi etc. and is harder to survive in due to on-line competition for consumer goods.

So, where, at the lower end, do you think a government could stimulate activity that might provide employment?

chopper6

Sleepy wrote: »

As mentioned in my very first post, we have a significant minority who hold education in disdain. A large number of those on our live register are the types who left school (either early or on completion of their leaving cert) and went straight to work as unskilled labourers in the construction sector or as shop assistants or similar low level sevices workers..

Can you provide figures to support this assertation?

And are you suggesting that we don't actually *need* shop assitants or "low level services workers"?


Who's going to work in shops?

My mother worked in a shop after re-entering the labour market at 50..it suited her as he lived nearby and gave her a few quid spending money.better than sitting around at home dont you think?

You seem to have a disdain for people who you consider to be beneath you in the labour market...i can't quite figure out why as based on your tax payments you can't be earning more than 45k per anum...this hardly puts you in the big league of earners now does it?

Sleepy wrote: »

Some of these people can be re-trained, some can't.

,Retrained as what,exactly?

Sleepy wrote: »

and it seems that quite a few have their head in the sand waiting for the boom to come back.

What "boom" do you refer to?

Was this the overheating of the property market caused by the bankers,the developers and the estate agents with the connivance of the national media?

Maybe a few billion euro raised in Stamp duty from property sales and thrown to the masses like corn in the form of a few tax cuts?


Ah yes the "boom"....when the people of ireland behaved like lavatory cleaners who've won the Lotto....

Sleepy

chopper6 wrote: »

Can you provide figures to support this assertation?

Not to hand but I'm sure you can remember such morons in school yourself.

And are you suggesting that we don't actually *need* shop assitants or "low level services workers"?

Not in succificient quantities to employ those without the skillsets to work in other areas, no.

Who's going to work in shops?

Ideally those incapable of working in higher value creating activities.

My mother worked in a shop after re-entering the labour market at 50..it suited her as he lived nearby and gave her a few quid spending money.better than sitting around at home dont you think?

You seem to have a disdain for people who you consider to be beneath you in the labour market...i can't quite figure out why as based on your tax payments you can't be earning more than 45k per anum...this hardly puts you in the big league of earners now does it?

I must've under-estimated my tax as my gross would be closer 60k but no, for personal reasons I've not prioritised my career beyond a modest level.

It's not disdain for people working in lower value creating activities, it's a concern that due to our global economy we can't hire as many people at this level as exist in this country and a reluctance to carry the can for those who refuse to put in the effort.

,Retrained as what,exactly?

Good question. Leaving Certs would be a good starting point for some, IT / Pharma / Finance / Languages / non Civil Engineering would seem sensible ones for those capable of them based on our successes to date in those areas

What "boom" do you refer to?

Was this the overheating of the property market caused by the bankers,the developers and the estate agents with the connivance of the national media?

Maybe a few billion euro raised in Stamp duty from property sales and thrown to the masses like corn in the form of a few tax cuts?

Ah yes the "boom"....when the people of ireland behaved like lavatory cleaners who've won the Lotto....

You forgot one very large contributing factor to our property bubble however: a gullible and greedy population.

I'm sorry but I'm losing interest in attempting to steer you back on topic at this stage. Do you have any input to the conversation or do you just want to rant at my choice of subject header and have a go?

St. Lupulin

Sleepy wrote: »

chopper6 wrote: »

Can you provide figures to support this assertation?

Not to hand but I'm sure you can remember such morons in school yourself.

How many people has this ignorant clown insulted now?

And when someone has a pop at him and the rest of his buddies they get infractions/warnings?

St. Lupulin

Sleepy wrote: »

a gullible and greedy population.

Sleepy wrote: »

I also lost about 10k on BOI Shares.

Not to mention how gullible you were to believe the horsesh!t story skafish conjured up.

chopper6

St. Lupulin wrote: »

How many people has this ignorant clown insulted now?

And when someone has a pop at him and the rest of his buddies they get infractions/warnings?

Allegedly this is a serious forum too...i was infracted for pointing out that the OP's GF isnt working.

chopper6

Sleepy wrote: »

I must've under-estimated my tax

Uh huh

Sleepy wrote: »

Finance....would seem sensible ones for those capable of them based on our successes to date in those areas

Are you actually serious...have you heard the Anglo Tapes at all?

St. Lupulin

chopper6 wrote: »

Allegedly this is a serious forum too...i was infracted for pointing out that the OP's GF isnt working.

We're probably going to get another infraction each now for "backseat moderation"

This post is still here though and still co-signed by 7 gullible morons.

skafish wrote: »

At the risk of being argumentative, I spoke today to a factory manager who has 20 vacancies, in a town with more than a thousand people on the live register. Yes, it is seasonal, minimum wage, low skilled work, but it is work.
The problem, I was told, is that because it is low paid, often involving early mornings and or late nights, most people feel they are better off on SW. They may not have quite as much cash in their pockets, but they don't have to work for it.

[MOD]User banned for this post and preceding.[/MOD]

Scofflaw

St. Lupulin wrote: »

We're probably going to get another infraction each now for "backseat moderation"

This post is still here though and still co-signed by 7 gullible morons.

Well, no, you're getting a permaban, because you have a pretty much perfect record of being insulting, abusive, and non-contributory in 100% of posts.

chopper6 wrote:

Allegedly this is a serious forum too...i was infracted for pointing out that the OP's GF isnt working.

Yup, for personalising the discussion - and now you're getting one for backseat moderation. Go and read the rules of the forum, because they apply to you. Be civil, and deal with the points being made rather than throwing personal insults as a substitute - and if you don't understand the difference, find out.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Sleepy

chopper6 wrote: »

Allegedly this is a serious forum too...i was infracted for pointing out that the OP's GF isnt working.

And rightly so. If my wife read that she'd kill me!

chopper6

I'm out of here...this whole topic is nonsense.

mariaalice

I am not saying that the welfare system is not in need of whole sale reform, of course it is, however I object to the posts that want every one on welfare to be on a level barely above that of of starvation, to be a fair sleepy is not one of those. I also do no think our welfare system is in danger of being overwhelmed by some uneducated underclass who are breading like rabbits. I don't see any evidence of wide spread contempt for education in Ireland. The reason we cant be like the Germans or anyone else is very simple we are not Germans! or any other culture we are Irish. I dislike the constantly looking to some outside agency to save us it is infantile.

Part of the problem with up skilling is that it is not always made easy to do in Ireland. For example I got a brochure in the door from the local VEC for night classes and while there are plenty of yoga/paper craft/guitar class there is only one academic skill type course and that is in accountancy. There needs to be widespread availability of part time fetec/hetec course at a low cost to make it easy for people to do. I would make all VEC provide evening/par time fetec/hetac courses in technology/science/engineering and I would provide interest free tax deductible loans to anyone who up skills in that way.

Unemployment was higher in the 1980s despite everything we have far more people as a percentage working now that we did then.

skafish

chopper6 wrote: »

I'm out of here...this whole topic is nonsense.

Bye Bye.
And thanks for the contributions

skafish

mariaalice wrote: »

I am not saying that the welfare system is not in need of whole sale reform, of course it is, however I object to the posts that want every one on welfare to be on a level barely above that of of starvation, to be a fair sleepy is not one of those. I also do no think our welfare system is in danger of being overwhelmed by some uneducated underclass who are breading like rabbits. I don't see any evidence of wide spread contempt for education in Ireland. The reason we cant be like the Germans or anyone else is very simple we are not Germans! or any other culture we are Irish. I dislike the constantly looking to some outside agency to save us it is infantile.

Part of the problem with up skilling is that it is not always made easy to do in Ireland. For example I got a brochure in the door from the local VEC for night classes and while there are plenty of yoga/paper craft/guitar class there is only one academic skill type course and that is in accountancy. There needs to be widespread availability of part time fetec/hetec course at a low cost to make it easy for people to do. I would make all VEC provide evening/par time fetec/hetac courses in technology/science/engineering and I would provide interest free tax deductible loans to anyone who up skills in that way.

Unemployment was higher in the 1980s despite everything we have far more people as a percentage working now that we did then.

I agree with your point regarding the availability of suitable courses.
I can see the rational behind evening classes in recreational areas (around here, they focus on flower arranging and photography). but while there is a place for these courses, they can be seen as a waste of resources that could be better targeted.
On the other hand, they provide a useful social outlet for a large cohort of society, and do provide an income stream for the instructors.
I also think interest free or low interest loans for upskilling courses are an excellent idea.

Re looking at other countries. Yes we are not German, or American, or anything else other than Irish.
That is not to say we can't learn from other countries.
I learned lately that in Germany, when a business buys a product or service produced by another German company, they pay a reduced rate of purchase tax. I don't know exactly how it works, but it makes sense to me to use one industry to support another.
This example probably wouldn't work here, but it is the kind of thinking we should be encouraging.

lucky john

skafish wrote: »

I agree with your point regarding the availability of suitable courses.
I can see the rational behind evening classes in recreational areas (around here, they focus on flower arranging and photography). but while there is a place for these courses, they can be seen as a waste of resources that could be better targeted.
On the other hand, they provide a useful social outlet for a large cohort of society, and do provide an income stream for the instructors.
I also think interest free or low interest loans for upskilling courses are an excellent idea..

I think VEC's put on courses locally that people will go to and while a couple might be interested in actual further education most are just looking fora hobby.

To behonest I think further education is moving to on line courses now. There are loads of course in every subject under the sun at this stage. Plenty are totally free and offer a qualification at the end. Nothing to do with me so not advertising but have a look at www.alison.com . I think this is where extra education is heading now. It really open university on line.

kuntboy

Its a pity that this thread was derailed by the offence-taking brigade who decide to constantly get offended on behalf of everyone else- The extreme end of the liberal right-thinking consensus. Thanks to them a valid and important question must remain hidden as an "elephant", while denying the issue even exists.

Getting back to the OP, his same question is asked in the book "10 questions Science cant answer yet" by Hanlon

Consider the following points:

Half of all people by definition have IQs below 100. IQs follow a bell curve, so the proportion that have a critically low level of intelligence (say IQ<85) would be maybe <15%. How many of these really low-skilled people will there be? Or is it the more medium IQ range we should be worried about?

There is no reason why we *should* necessarily have high levels of employment. This is what the Luddites feared during the Industrial Revolution and bureaucratic pencil-pushing state jobs may well not grow to fill the gap as many expect to happen.

Robotics has reached a peak in many ways and requires the development of quantum computing to allow real development which is in its infancy and years away from real progress.

I personally predict the Mega City One model, 95% unemployment in the not too distant future. Give them Bread-and-Circuses to keep them out of trouble, because there will be no alternative, I'm sorry to say.

flazio

mariaalice wrote: »

Unemployment was higher in the 1980s despite everything we have far more people as a percentage working now that we did then.

Perhaps that's because Emigration is a lot cheaper then it was back in the 80s thanks to the likes of Ryanair?

uncle_mick

Germany presents a great lesson in point , they take the view that not everyone is an ideal candidate for university education and so place high emphasis on apprenticeship colleges which lead to work which involves using ones hands - making stuff , those who work in these areas are held in high esteem in Germany and this contributes to the countrys world class manufacturing sector , in Ireland we prefer our kids to study equality or some other meaningless arts course in college , the results is plenty of people to spout empty platitudes on rte or Vincent brownes show but very little in the way of real wealth creation

FTA69

I agree with some of the above to be honest. In Ireland manual work of any variety is often viewed by people as something that needs to be escaped from as opposed to a vital section of the economy. Tradesmen and skilled manual workers in industries such as automotive, energy production, mineral extraction etc are often well-paid and highly-competent people. Germany is a key example of this. It has managed to adjust to the modern globalised world while also maintaining its secondary economic activity by actively supporting it. Britain on the other hand, systematically dismantled it's old industries and now everyone is banging on about the need to "make things" again.

Sleepy

I think there's quite the difference between what Germans consider "well paid" compared to their Irish and English counterparts however...

mariaalice

uncle_mick wrote: »

Germany presents a great lesson in point , they take the view that not everyone is an ideal candidate for university education and so place high emphasis on apprenticeship colleges which lead to work which involves using ones hands - making stuff , those who work in these areas are held in high esteem in Germany and this contributes to the country's world class manufacturing sector , in Ireland we prefer our kids to study equality or some other meaningless arts course in college , the results is plenty of people to spout empty platitudes on rte or Vincent brownes show but very little in the way of real wealth creation

I think every one contribution is great and at least everyone is thinking about how things could be better, however we cant be Germany or anyone other country, Why Germany developed the culture it has around engineering can not be wholesale translated to Ireland ( does not mean we cant examine and learn for it ) Ireland has never had an industrial revaluation, Ireland only introduced free secondary education in 1968. If you eve look at some of the programs on why Finish education is so good one of the things is that secondary school have the sort of science and engineering labs that you only see in third level institution in Ireland, it would cost million to set up such systems in every secondary school, let alone the support staff needed to this.

Re the UK while they might have more or less given up their engineering heritage, it is still a vastly wealthy country in ways that are very had to comprehend go to any small village in the south of England and you will see evidence of wealth going back to the middle ages. Ireland is not like that so we have to have a different way.

P.s some of the greatest thinkers in the humanities were/are German i.e Jurgen Harbemas