Extinguish right of way?

Orion

Was on the Dublin Road near Louisa Bridge tonight and noticed the attached planning notice on the road. The council are applying to extinguish the right of way on the R148 between Kellystown Lane and Intel (see attachment). This is the main regional road linking Maynooth and Leixlip (see map attached - the section between the L1014 and the R449 is the section they want to remove as a public right of way.

How can they remove a right of way on a regional road? I can only assume that this is related to the Intel/IDA land grab of Tony Reid's farm. A verdict is due in the High Court later this month on this but it seems the council are preempting it. Even if it isn't it needs to be fought - how does the council think it can sneak this through? It's not even on the Kildare Coco site - at least I can't find it.

I've already mailed John McGinley and I'll be mailing the rest of the local councillors and TDs tomorrow as well as other potential candidates in next year's local elections. I'll also be objecting in writing to the Officer mentioned in the planning notice.

ytareh

Orion wrote: »

How can they remove a right of way on a regional road?

Well if theyre anything to do with the shower in government Im not the slightest surprised .They treat the citizens with contempt in their quest to line their own pockets and those of their business cronies.

Lord God!I thought you meant some back lane like Kellystown Lane .You mean the old main road between Lidl, Leixlip and where the strawberry seller has their stand ???!!!Right outside their main entrance ?They have some brass balls !!!!Even if they were providing 10,000 new jobs that would be a bit of an ask .

Orion

It is for the Intel works. Seemingly a new temporary road is to be built just south of the main road while the works are going on. I'm very skeptical of this. I don't see why a right of way needs to be extinguished. Seems a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Maybe I'm being cynical but history has shown how often local and national government bend over and take it from big business. If the right of way is extinguished what's to stop Intel from then acquiring the road permanently - of course they'd get the IDA to do their dirty work but the result would be the same.

brian_t

Extinguishment of right of way R148 . . It was posted on the 2nd August apparently.

KILDARE COUNTY COUNCIL

PROPOSED EXTINGUISHMENT OF

PUBLIC RIGHTS OF WAY

(Under SECTION 73 OF THE ROADS ACT, 1993)

Over a Section of the R148 Leixlip – Maynooth regional road between the junction of the L1014 Kellystown Lane and the roundabout at the junction of the R449 and the R148

Notice is hereby given that Kildare County Council, in accordance with the provisions of Section 73 of the Roads Act, 1993, proposes to make an order extinguishing the public rights of way at: a section of the R148 Leixlip – Maynooth regional road between the junction of the L1014 Kellystown Lane and the roundabout at the Junction of the R449 and the R148)

Drawings showing the proposed extinguishment of public right of way may be inspected at the public counter in the Transportation Department on Level 4 at the address below during office hours (9.oo a.m. to 5.oo p.m. Monday to Friday excluding public holidays) and at Leixlip Public Library during normal opening hours for a period of one month from Tuesday 6 August 2013.

Objections or representations relating to the above mentioned proposed extinguishment may be made in writing to the Senior Executive Officer, Transportation Department, on Level 4 at the address below. The latest date for receipt of such objections or representations is 12 noon on Wednesday 2 October 2013.

Any person making an objection or representation within the foregoing period may make a request, in writing, to state their case at an oral hearing to be conducted by a person appointed by Kildare County Council for that purpose.

brian_t

Orion wrote: »

Seemingly a new temporary road is to be built just south of the main road while the works are going on.

This is the press release for that.

Part 8 Temporary R148 Realignment Maynooth Road

PLANNING and DEVELOPMENT ACT 2000 (as amended)
PLANNING and DEVELOPMENT REGULATIONS 2001-2012 (PART 8)

Temporary R148 Road Realignment

Leixlip – Maynooth Road, Leixlip

Pursuant to the requirements of the above, notice is hereby given of the proposal to temporarily realign a section of the R148 Leixlip - Maynooth regional road between the R449/R148 roundabout and the L1014 (Kellystown Lane) approximately 800m to the west of the R449/R148 roundabout. The proposed realigned road will maintain the link between Maynooth and Leixlip while safely facilitating construction work on adjacent industrial lands.

A section of the rerouted road will pass through the curtilage of a protected structure – Collinstown House (RPS no. B11-117). It is proposed to temporarily dismantle a section of the wall of Collinstown House (RPS no. B11-117) to facilitate the construction of the temporary road.
In accordance with S. I. 476, 2011, Section 250, Planning and Development

(Amendment) (No.3) Regulations 2011 Kildare County Council has determined that an Appropriate Assessment is not required.
Plans and particulars of the proposed Part 8 scheme will be available for inspection or purchase at a fee not exceeding the reasonable cost of making a copy during normal opening hours from Tuesday the 6 August until Tuesday 17 of September 2013 at the following locations:Roads and Transportation

Kildare County Council Roads & Transport Department:
(Level 4), Kildare County Council,
at the address below.

Leixlip Library
Captains Hill
Leixlip
Co. Kildare.

Plans and particulars of the proposed scheme will also be available to view on Kildare County Council’s website at www.kildare.ie/countycouncil
Submissions or observations with respect to the proposed development, dealing with the proper planning and development of the area in which the proposed development would be situated may be made in writing to:
Senior Executive Officer,
Roads, Transport & Public Safety,
Level 4, at the address below
on or before 12.00 noon Wednesday 2 of October 2013.
Submissions should be headed:

“Temporary R148 Road Realignment

Leixlip – Maynooth Road”


All comments, including names of those making comments, submitted to the Council in regard to this scheme will form part of the statutorily required report to be presented to the monthly meeting of Kildare County Council. Accordingly they will also be included in the minutes of that meeting and may appear in the public domain.

Kildare County Council propose to extinguish the public rights of way on a section of the R148 between the junction of the L1014 (Kellystown Lane) and the roundabout at the junction of the R449 and the R148. A separate public consultation process, as prescribed by Section 73 of the Roads Act, 1993 will commence on Tuesday 6 August with the closing date for receipt of objections or representations being 12 noon on Wednesday 2October 2013.

brian_t

To me the obvious question is

If the closure (Extinguishment of right of way) of part of the main road is permanent and the "bypass" is temporary then what happens in the long term?

It might be better to view the plans and particulars in the Library before jumping to conclusions.

Orion wrote: »

I'll also be objecting in writing to the Officer mentioned in the planning notice.

Better be polite :pac:

All comments, including names of those making comments...may appear in the public domain.

Lepidoptera

I'm a bit confused as to what this actually means...how can they remove public right of way on the main linking road between two places? This is a fairly major road as well as the public transport route. If the Intel works are temporary, why extinguish the right of way?

brian_t

brian_t wrote: »

Extinguishment of right of way R148 . .

KILDARE COUNTY COUNCIL

PROPOSED EXTINGUISHMENT OF

PUBLIC RIGHTS OF WAY

(Under SECTION 73 OF THE ROADS ACT, 1993)

Over a Section of the R148 Leixlip – Maynooth regional road between the junction of the L1014 Kellystown Lane and the roundabout at the junction of the R449 and the R148

Notice is hereby given that Kildare County Council, in accordance with the provisions of Section 73 of the Roads Act, 1993, proposes to make an order extinguishing the public rights of way at: a section of the R148 Leixlip – Maynooth regional road between the junction of the L1014 Kellystown Lane and the roundabout at the Junction of the R449 and the R148)

Drawings showing the proposed extinguishment of public right of way may be inspected at the public counter in the Transportation Department on Level 4 at the address below during office hours (9.oo a.m. to 5.oo p.m. Monday to Friday excluding public holidays) and at Leixlip Public Library during normal opening hours for a period of one month from Tuesday 6 August 2013.

Had a look at this in the library and the folder contains only a copy of the above notice and a map. Nothing else only those 2 items.

.
.
I also had a look at the other Planning Proposal for the temporary road. This one contains lots of reports and lots of reading.

These works are temporary and the realligned road will be removed upon completion of the works to the R148 Road.

It also says

For clarity it is proposed that the public right of way to the affected section of the R148 will be extinguished for the period that the realligned section of the R148 is in operation.

So the PROPOSED EXTINGUISHMENT OF PUBLIC RIGHTS OF WAY are only temporary.

But the word temporary is not mentioned in the above notice.

It also gives no indication of the time frame involved.

L1011

I've never seen this done before for temporary realignments - but there's a chance its being done to prevent timewasting legal challenges. Leixlip has a few people fond of those!

brian_t

MYOB wrote: »

I've never seen this done before for temporary realignments !

I haven't seen it done either but the temporary road will be a full proper road.

There will be a roundabout in the middle of it to coincide with the entrance of Intel. There will be a 4 lane carriageway on the Leixlip side of the roundabout and 2 lanes on the Maynooth side.

(4 lane carriageway = 2 lanes both ways)

Orion

According to John the right of way will be reinstated after the works. I'm told it's being extinguished for Health and Safety reasons to prevent people using it. tbh I don't buy that at all. The council has it well within its power to block access to rights of way temporarily for works reasons. Parsons St right now is a perfect example of that.

Call me a cynic but I don't trust Intel or, more specifically, the IDA - my gut tells me that this land that is no longer a public way will end up in private ownership. The IDA's treatment of Tony Reid has been reprehensible and I hope he wins his case against them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to Intel expanding - it's a great jobs boost for the site, builders and ancillary services - but it's the nature of the beast that if they see an opportunity they'll seize it.

Thanks for the link brian_t - I couldn't find it on the site.

brian_t

Apologies to Orion for vandalising their map but I have shown (approximately) the new Temporary road in red and the Extinguished Right of Way in yellow.

Orion

Vandalise away - it's not my map

brian_t

Have there been any recent announcements from Intel regarding their plans.

This is from March.

THERE are no immediate plans for Intel to invest in its campus at Leixlip, despite the company receiving planning permission for significant new developments at the plant.

A company spokesperson told Electric.ie:

“It is correct that there are no immediate plans and Intel is not announcing any new investment at the Ireland campus. Planning applications are part of our regular business practice to ensure preparation and readiness and it is a prudent measure for the company to have flexible options available which allow us to be responsive in our manufacturing operations”.

Electric.ie Magazine Mar / April 2013

brian_t

Orion wrote: »

According to John the right of way will be reinstated after the works.

Why is the word TEMPORARY not mentioned anywhere on the PROPOSED EXTINGUISHMENT OF PUBLIC RIGHTS OF WAY notice ?

Why is there no information given in that Planning File except for a Map and a copy of the Public Notice.

(at least not in the copy available for viewing in Leixlip library)

(the information posted in #8 above came from the Temporary Road Planning File)

vektarman

Looks like Tony Reid is losing his land, here's an update..

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/kildare-farmer-to-leave-house-after-losing-high-court-challenge-607493.html

2011abc

Sad news but I suppose the 'greater good' case is strong enough here . I sincerely hope he is left financially a very rich man even though you can't put a price on some things ...

brian_t

There are a lot of farmers who would love to sell their farms for Industrial development and then buy another farm 3 or 4 times larger somewhere else.

2011abc wrote: »

I sincerely hope he is left financially a very rich man even though you can't put a price on some things ...

If he hadn't delayed the inevitable he might have got a better price for the land some years ago.

And in relation to tax. Threshholds have been dropping and tax rates have been rising.

loremolis

Has anyone got a copy of the High Court Judgement in that case?

Orion

vektarman wrote: »

Looks like Tony Reid is losing his land, here's an update..

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/kildare-farmer-to-leave-house-after-losing-high-court-challenge-607493.html

That is an absolute disgrace. Forcing someone out of their home that has housed their family for generation to make way for a fcuking carpark! Joni Mitchell had it right.

dobsdave

Orion wrote: »

That is an absolute disgrace. Forcing someone out of their home that has housed their family for generation to make way for a fcuking carpark! Joni Mitchell had it right.

Where did you get car park from?

brian_t

Orion wrote: »

The council are applying to extinguish the right of way on the R148 between Kellystown Lane and Intel.

Orion wrote: »

Seemingly a new temporary road is to be built just south of the main road while the works are going on.

Both of these have got the goahead

At a meeting on 22 November, Celbridge area members gave the goahead to the creation of the new stretch between the the R148 junction with the R449 and the L1014 local road, known as Kellystown lane.
...
At the same meeting, the area councillors agreed to the extinguishment of a public right of way at the R148, which will be replaced by the temporary road.

New road to aid Intel investment effort

Orion

vektarman wrote: »

Looks like Tony Reid is losing his land, here's an update..

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/kildare-farmer-to-leave-house-after-losing-high-court-challenge-607493.html

He's won in the Supreme Court. I'm delighted.

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/man-house-ida-compulsory-order-2425414-Nov2015/

Moonbeam

That is the house with the paper signs outside it! I never manged to read them but did wonder

L1011

Be interesting to see the judgement, considering the appeal grounds were unusual to say the least. If its been found that CPOs do infringe constitutional rights we're unlikely to see any major road or rail projects happening ever again.

The signs are illegible from the road and I've always been wary about stopping to read them as I don't want a conversation with him about them!

Orion

Haven't seen the judgement obviously but I imagine it will be constitutional property rights. There is a huge difference between taking a piece of land at the edge of property for a road/rail project and taking all of someone's land including the family home. If this is the judgement then I can't see it impacting on projects like those.

L1011

Orion wrote: »

Haven't seen the judgement obviously but I imagine it will be constitutional property rights. There is a huge difference between taking a piece of land at the edge of property for a road/rail project and taking all of someone's land including the family home. If this is the judgement then I can't see it impacting on projects like those.

Most if not all motorway schemes involve demolishing a number of houses. The recently opened section of the M11 took out four detached houses beside each other at one end alone, I didn't see the rest of the route to know.

Widenings etc usually take strips of land; but houses have been CPOed by the state for decades.

Orion

Were those houses CPOed or bought without a CPO? If a motorway was suddenly going to be going by my house I'd be happy to sell at the current market rate and move. CPO is a last refuge not a default position.

L1011

Orion wrote: »

Were those houses CPOed or bought without a CPO? If a motorway was suddenly going to be going by my house I'd be happy to sell at the current market rate and move. CPO is a last refuge not a default position.

Pretty much universally CPOed as that gets you 'reasonable expenses', e.g. your legal costs for the sale and next purchase, and moving costs on the new house. Possibly even the stamp duty on the new house, not sure of that one.

You always wait to get the CPO unless its a falling market.

donspeekinglesh

http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2015/1105/739823-farmer-land/

It seems to be because they had no particular plan for the land.

L1011

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2015/1105/739823-farmer-land/

It seems to be because they had no particular plan for the land.

If that's the case, its realistically just going to mean they come back in a few years with a CPO due to having solid plans really. Buying time but not stopping the eventual forced sale.

Its pretty obvious who the land was actually intended for, but obviously they weren't willing to have their name put to it...

Moonbeam

L1011 wrote: »

If that's the case, its realistically just going to mean they come back in a few years with a CPO due to having solid plans really. Buying time but not stopping the eventual forced sale.

Its pretty obvious who the land was actually intended for, but obviously they weren't willing to have their name put to it...

Who ?

L1011

Moonbeam wrote: »

Who ?

Intel.

2011abc

Great news

knucklehead6

Was Reid not offered market value before? Or even above market value and he refused, saying he wanted more.

Then the arse fell out of the market and he was offered a LOT less and again refused.

Then the CPO was brought in.

I could be wrong but I was told that by a number of different sources

L1011

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Was Reid not offered market value before? Or even above market value and he refused, saying he wanted more.

Then the arse fell out of the market and he was offered a LOT less and again refused.

Then the CPO was brought in.

I could be wrong but I was told that by a number of different sources

He was, however all I'd heard was that he doesn't want to sell though, not that he asked for more. The reason the IDA tried to buy this at normal sale first was because the CPO process for the IDA hadn't been used for years and - as you see now - was ultimately unsuccessful

The CPO process for councils and the TII (former NRA/RPA) is used constantly and is the standard way they operate. It ensures that the person being forced to see is put right for their costs as well as the value and also stops them having someone demanding insane multiples of real value.

dobsdave

Intel already had plans made up for a new fab to go on this land.
I wonder would this be enough to make them choose one of the alternative sites (Israel etc).

dori_dormer

Israel already has 5 or 6 sites. They can only produce so much there as its getting a Little unstable.

They will always need fabs in Ireland as otherwise they won't have a site in Europe to avail of tax breaks. The problem is the land all needs to be joined together, it can't even be a mile away aparently.

If Intel ireland want to expand again this is their only location. I think his days are numbered as technically Intel could reduce the ireland site to 500 people and one old fab if they wanted to. It would be a huge loss for employees and the area.

L1011

There's limited reason they couldn't put a fab over with the chip design site in Shannon, if they wanted to.

However, the entire reason this CPO was rejected was the non identification of a purpose for the land. New process saying its for Intel is likely to succeed.

dori_dormer

There is , the fab has to be on very specific type of land. Shannon may not be suitable. Also it would require relocating a thousand engineers from dublin to the middle of nowhere and that costs a lot of money.

L1011

dori_dormer wrote: »

There is , the fab has to be on very specific type of land. Shannon may not be suitable. Also it would require relocating a thousand engineers from dublin to the middle of nowhere and that costs a lot of money.

Nobody needs to move if its an additional fab as opposed to a replacement. Training for new processes already has them pay for people to spend up to a year in Oregon, so an alternative site in Ireland would still be cheaper.

Seth Brundle

dori_dormer wrote: »

They will always need fabs in Ireland as otherwise they won't have a site in Europe to avail of tax breaks. The problem is the land all needs to be joined together, it can't even be a mile away aparently.

If Intel ireland want to expand again this is their only location. I think his days are numbered as technically Intel could reduce the ireland site to 500 people and one old fab if they wanted to. It would be a huge loss for employees and the area.

There is plenty of land behind Intel on the far side of the Rye. From memory, Intel owned (and possibly still do) quite a lot of it.