Parenting vs career

caff

I read the article below and thought one paragraph raised an interesting point that I had not considered before.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-08/women-who-opt-out-face-harsh-choices.html

The main part of the article deals with the authors view on wealthy women's views on the choices they make vs the reality for the majority of women. The point that stuck out for me though I have quoted below.

While it does make some kind of sense I think it is more akin to those economic theories that appear so neat and tidy but do not work out that way in real life.
I wonder do people see things playing out this way in reality? Have the support institutions in Ireland developed to support a womans choice to work. And to the other side, if women chose to stay at home and raise kids does that make streets safer for them?

If all the mothers and fathers in your neighborhood work, the neighborhood will have a lot of institutions set up to support that choice: day cares, dry-cleaners that wash and fold laundry, upscale takeout stands and all-night drugstores. If all the mothers stay home, the neighborhood will have an entirely different set of amenities -- streets where stay-at-home moms can confidently let the kids run from house to house knowing that there is always someone with an eye on the pack, volunteer institutions to provide social support, daytime activities for adults with small children.

pwurple

The problem there is the "all women". There is never something that ALL women do or want.

Firstly we are are not all the same and do not all want the same things. Some women (And man) choose to be full time parents, housekeeper, cleaner, chef, nurse, taxi driver and some women (and men) choose to have full time or part time employment, and get some paid help if they can afford it.

Ideally society should be set up to accomadate flexibility for both parents choosing whichever options suits them best. And by suits them best, that could be financially, intellectually, physically, emotionally... whatever.

I think encouraging male leave for childcare, shared paternity/maternity leave would encourage this flexibility to develop naturally.

Honey-ec

I think the last paragraph is taking a very simplistic view of things. Outside of certain very high or very low income areas, it's just not going to be the case that everyone works or no-one does. Most neighbourhoods, in reality, are going to be a pretty even mix.

caff

I think the author as an economist is trying to create a 'model' but only including easy to measure aspects of the world we live in and ignoring the realities of the differences between people that would be too hard to fit into it.

rainbowtrout

That quoted paragraph isn't accurate. The references could easily be changed to high income v low income, or employed v unemployed and remove all reference to children and you would still have the same amenities/lack of amenities with perhaps the exception of creches.

I don't need to have children to make use of dry cleaners and expensive takeaways. I can do that as a single person, once I have the income to support it. Actually single people might be more likely to use them as (all other things being equal) they would possibly have more disposable income than people with children.

meeeeh

I come from a country where almost all parents work (except unemployment. And things are done differently, you have access to banks outside working hours, crèches are subsidised, there is free after school care (or at least used to be), children get meals in schools (I think it depends on income whether they are free or not). While there are always exceptions I'm pretty sure crèche system here would be better if most children attended them. On the other hand there are no mummy&child groups or similar amenities. So yes it is completely natural that society evolves around it's needs.

clairefontaine

Hmnn. Well, this is an American article about American women. It seems incongruous to apply what is available in Ireland to choices made by womenliving in the US. It's an entirely different ball game. Different services, different expectations of women and children, little maternity leave, no child benefit, better child support enforcement, way way longer banking hours, and lots of women in the private sector, just very different.

It's also nothing new to say that choice involves sacrifice. The gods always exact a price. I was somehow let down by her last paragraph. The well duh bell rang for me.

Siosleis

I do not want children nor do I expect them in my life.I do resent the "mommies" who seem to be able to swan in and out of work when it suits them. Some people have to do double the work of the career "mommies" .The "mommies" who get pregnant at a time of year that coincides with tax,holidays and pay, but yet who tut tut if you DARE broach the subject of welfare spongers, or worse again, child benefit."Mommies" need that benefit to go shopping.

wolfpawnat

It is all very black and White according to that piece. No reference to the mothers who want to stay home but cannot due to financial commitments or due to a change in family circumstance. In an ideal world I would think having a parent at home would be seen as ideal, but for many that is not what they want for themselves in life or it is just not an option. Crèche prices here also dictate the parents ability to take up employment if they are unqualified. There are toddler groups but they have waiting lists in the cities making many women, especially in certain areas feel very isolated which can push them back to work even if they would rather stay at home to have even some peer social interaction.

meeeeh

Siosleis wrote: »

I do not want children nor do I expect them in my life.I do resent the "mommies" who seem to be able to swan in and out of work when it suits them. Some people have to do double the work of the career "mommies" .The "mommies" who get pregnant at a time of year that coincides with tax,holidays and pay, but yet who tut tut if you DARE broach the subject of welfare spongers, or worse again, child benefit."Mommies" need that benefit to go shopping.

Well you'll be sponging of their children for your pension so equilibrium will be reset again when you retire or get sick.

Siosleis

Siosleis wrote: »

I do not want children nor do I expect them in my life.I do resent the "mommies" who seem to be able to swan in and out of work when it suits them. Some people have to do double the work of the career "mommies" .The "mommies" who get pregnant at a time of year that coincides with tax,holidays and pay, but yet who tut tut if you DARE broach the subject of welfare spongers, or worse again, child benefit."Mommies" need that benefit to go shopping.

Dripping with assumption and judgement.

Siosleis

Candie wrote: »

[/B]
Dripping with assumption and judgement.

Only commenting on what I have witnessed in my own place of work.

Siosleis

meeeeh wrote: »

Well you'll be sponging of their children for your pension so equilibrium will be reset again when you retire or get sick.

*off
And I'm sure I will, but at least I have worked for it.

eviltwin

Siosleis wrote: »

*off
And I'm sure I will, but at least I have worked for it.

"mommies" work too, maybe not the extent of the hours some people do but plenty of parents do their fair share. If you feel that you are being discriminated against in the work place as a result of your childless status that's something you should take up with your employer. I appreciate there are many parents who do take the piss and will not pull their weight or who will go home for every minor thing but the majority of us do give the same committiment as everyone else.

Neyite

Siosleis wrote: »

*off
And I'm sure I will, but at least I have worked for it.

As do the mothers that work. I've worked and paid tax since the age of 14. I took 11 months off, 26 of those getting €261 a week from social welfare, the other 16 I lived off savings. I returned to full time work. So, I think I'm pretty entitled to take a little back from the system I have paid into for over 23 years to date, and intend to pay into for another couple of decades at least. Damn right I'll take maternity benefit to help pay the bills. I'm taking time off to give essential care to the children of tomorrow that will be paying into the pot for my old age pension, and yours.

I dont get any passes in work for having a child, and didnt get any when pregnant. Didnt want or expect them. I get treated the exact same as my colleagues. If my child is sick, I dont get paid. Yet when my colleagues call in sick from being hungover they get full pay for the day. I'm expected to do the same amount of work and overtime that everybody else does.

meeeeh

Siosleis wrote: »

*off
And I'm sure I will, but at least I have worked for it.

Not enough according current trends. Those mommies are bringing up kids that will pay the difference between your contributions and your needs when you retire. They will supplement your health costs, your travel, heating or whatever costs and probably your pension. So you better hope that they bring up as many children as possible.

Having children is in the interest of the society, if you want me to be as flippant as you were, then it is you who is not doing what is needed.

Siosleis

I most certainly am not flippant.I just think that it is extremely unfair on people who do not have children to carry the load for the people who do.In my place of work special treatment is given to the "mommies" who have small children at home, or indeed are pregnant(again) after returning from maternity leave, or have to rush off before the end of the working day to pick up the "kiddies" from school/doctor/whatever.
The childless women are always expected to pick up the slack.If you want to be a "mommie" then be one at home with your kids and raise them.Don't treat work as a hobby.
And I certainly do not expect anyone to fund my lifestyle when I retire.I am paying into a pension fund as well as paying every frigging tax that they throw at us.I have a right to give my opinion as much as the mothers.
But then, us "spinsters" are not worth anything to society because we did not breed.

eviltwin

You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder about working parents or is it just working mothers you have a beef with.

You might come across as less flippant if you didn't talk about "mommies" and "kiddies". It comes across as incredibly condesending.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder about working parents or is it just working mothers you have a beef with.

You might come across as less flippant if you didn't talk about "mommies" and "kiddies". It comes across as incredibly condesending.

Poisonous vitriol would be how I characterise it.

Extrapolating ones own personal experience to everybody in a particular demographic isn't particularly worthy of response anyway.

And I've no kids.

Siosleis

Right so.I'm full of poisonous vitriol, am condescending and have a chip on my shoulder.Well that's me put back in my place anyways.
I have worked hard all my life, paid my dues, climbed up the career ladder, yet am less of a person because I choose not to have children.I cannot voice my opinion about the fact that, in my field of work anyways,the childless women have double the amount of work to do compared to the mothers.
And I never drink when I have work the next day so anytime I have been out sick was not due to a hangover.

eviltwin

Siosleis wrote: »

Right so.I'm full of poisonous vitriol, am condescending and have a chip on my shoulder.Well that's me put back in my place anyways.
I have worked hard all my life, paid my dues, climbed up the career ladder, yet am less of a person because I choose not to have children.I cannot voice my opinion about the fact that, in my field of work anyways,the childless women have double the amount of work to do compared to the mothers.
And I never drink when I have work the next day so anytime I have been out sick was not due to a hangover.

I have worked hard and paid my dues but I have children. Who says you are less of a person?? I'm not the kind of person to expect others to pick up my slack, on the rare occassion I have had to leave early for a child related incident - once in 17 yrs - people have helped out just as I have when others have to leave because of their personal issues.

Clearly you work with some women who don't have any respect for their co workers but some working mothers are not all working mothers and the vast majority don't see work as a "hobby" as you so nicely put it. :mad:

meeeeh

Siosleis wrote: »

And I certainly do not expect anyone to fund my lifestyle when I retire.I am paying into a pension fund as well as paying every frigging tax that they throw at us.I have a right to give my opinion as much as the mothers.
But then, us "spinsters" are not worth anything to society because we did not breed.

Firstly you are badly informed, the pension pot and contributions you are making at the moment are far from enough. You will be bailed out by younger generation as will be all of us. (On average, some die early or other reasons). Secondly your view how work should be done is extremely old fashioned. It doesn't matter when they leave, if they do their job. How many people waste their day on fb, forums or whatever and you are not complaining about them. The efficiency and quality of work is important, not how long you do it.

Anyway if they are so bad and still there what does that say about you.

clairefontaine

meeeeh wrote: »

Firstly you are badly informed, the pension pot and contributions you are making at the moment are far from enough. You will be bailed out by younger generation as will be all of us. (On average, some die early or other reasons). Secondly your view how work should be done is extremely old fashioned. It doesn't matter when they leave, if they do their job. How many people waste their day on fb, forums or whatever and you are not complaining about them. The efficiency and quality of work is important, not how long you do it.

Anyway if they are so bad and still there what does that say about you.

We don't actually know this. The pot could by raided by then.

I've seen new mother beyond exhausted when they come back from maternity leave and rushing out the door at 5 pm to pick up their babies. And felt really bad for them.

I've also been in the position where my boss went on maternity leave and I was left carrying the load. Good thing I didn't have my own kids at the time.

This article was written for the US. Women don't have the choice anymore unless they marry very rich men. Now you need two incomes.

meeeeh

I agree and I used to fill in for others every Christmas Eve, New Year's Eve and on Saturdays but you take that as part of the package. My parents have couple of excellent mothers working for them. I think it is very unfair to dismiss somebody just because they are a parent and might leave a bit early or have to take a day off every so often. Yes it is annoying sometimes but mostly it isn't a big deal.

CaraMay

If a woman goes on maternity leave and the company dont provide appropriate replacement workers then its the company's fault, not the womans....

Rosy Posy

I'm a SAHM and have never had a proper career. I got pregnant in my final year in college, seven years ago and am pregnant with my fourth (last) now. To pursue the career I would like will involve further study so I will be 40 by the time I enter the working world proper. I feel blessed to have this time at home with my children, although this could not have been achieved in the same way had we stayed in Ireland. Here in NZ staying at home with your children is far more common than returning to work straight away, although they have a really great subsidised kindergarten system for the 3-5 year old age group with 20hrs free across the board. I find that the system here seems a bit more traditional/old fashioned and one area effects another in ways you wouldn't automatically expect. For example, it seems like much fewer people here finish second level and go on to third level education, with uni fees being out of the range of a large sector of the population. They also have a lot of health problems in the Maori and Pacific Island population due in part to poor nutrition. So one of the things they do to combat this is to very heavily push exclusive breastfeeding, and extended breast feeding to between 1 and 2 years. They haven't made a massive investment in third level education so they're happy to support women to stay at home with their babies and to give them the best nutrititive start in life. I get the impression that in Ireland there is a drive to get educated women back into the workplace and I know that breast feeding is very much seen as a choice with little emphasis placed on exclusive breast feeding and not as much support as we would have here.

Also when I was in contact with colleges here about returning to study, it was very much assumed that my family would take precedence over my study and I was discouraged from embarking on a course until my youngest was three. I contrast that with the department in my alma mater in Ireland who's attitude seems to be that if you want to get on the programme you put your academic work über alles.

Just want to qualify that this is just my impression from my experience and that of my friends, it might not have a bearing on the reality of anyone else's experience or perception.

Ciarabear

Women are not economic units and should not be treated as such. Motherhood is an equally valid career within itself and stepping outside of the 9-5 slaveforce should be applauded, not condemned .

Raising children to become respectable adults is one of the most valuable contributions to society a person can make.

CathyMoran

Ciarabear wrote: »

Women are not economic units and should not be treated as such. Motherhood is an equally valid career within itself and stepping outside of the 9-5 slaveforce should be applauded, not condemned .

Raising children to become respectable adults is one of the most valuable contributions to society a person can make.

If you replace that with parenthood I would agree with you. I feel that we have gone backwards by not having one parent at home, at least in the early years. I work outside the home but not by choice.

CaraMay

CathyMoran wrote: »

If you replace that with parenthood I would agree with you. I feel that we have gone backwards by not having one parent at home, at least in the early years. I work outside the home but not by choice.

I agree. There is no job I can do which is more important than raising my child yet circumstances dictate I have to work. I am being penalised by my boss because I cannot stay later and my peers can / do. That's the downside of being a working parent - 9 to 5 is just no good anymore.

clairefontaine

Ciarabear wrote: »

Women are not economic units and should not be treated as such. Motherhood is an equally valid career within itself and stepping outside of the 9-5 slaveforce should be applauded, not condemned .

Raising children to become respectable adults is one of the most valuable contributions to society a person can make.

Unfortunately it's seen as sitting around in your Juicy Couture pants, watching home shopping network, and calling your husband at work to remind him to pick up the groceries on the way home from work.


People don't realise how incredibly hard it is, especially in the early years.

BUt it's not really a choice now for most women. They have to work because now we need two incomes in a family.

On the other hand an employee needs your commitment too.

clairefontaine

CaraMay wrote: »

I agree. There is no job I can do which is more important than raising my child yet circumstances dictate I have to work. I am being penalised by my boss because I cannot stay later and my peers can / do. That's the downside of being a working parent - 9 to 5 is just no good anymore.

Unless you have a very supportive husband you can't compete with the childless.

It has occurred to me that first they made the dads redundant, and then they made the mothers redundant.

what2do

CaraMay wrote: »

If a woman goes on maternity leave and the company dont provide appropriate replacement workers then its the company's fault, not the womans....

Its not the womans fault however companies who provide paid maternity leave are loath to pay an additional person therefore work is spread out amongst the remaining staff and I think this is leading to fellow staff members feeling resentful of maternity leave. Companies no longer really care about keeping staff happy:-(

clairefontaine

what2do wrote: »

Its not the womans fault however companies who provide paid maternity leave are loath to pay an additional person therefore work is spread out amongst the remaining staff and I think this is leading to fellow staff members feeling resentful of maternity leave. Companies no longer really care about keeping staff happy:-(

Especially if they have 3 kids in five years.