Matter or god have always existed

shadowcomplex

Is this statement true or false ? If there is no god then matter has to have always existed because how can nothing create anything ? But from a scientific point of view this doesn't make sense because everything physical has a beginning , I'd like to start a discussion on this

Sulla Felix

Your basic premise isn't true however. On a subatomic level, particles pop in and out of existence all the time.

Mr. G

Its something we really can't answer. We know that space is expanding; but into what? think about it. These things we don't know the answer to. Maybe we are better off not knowing..

shadowcomplex

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Your basic premise isn't true however. On a subatomic level, particles pop in and out of existence all the time.

Yea but what's doing that is what I'd like to know

shadowcomplex

Mr. G wrote: »

Its something we really can't answer. We know that space is expanding; but into what? think about it. These things we don't know the answer to. Maybe we are better off not knowing..

Heaven

shadowcomplex

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Heaven

Sorry couldn't resist

TheChizler

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Heaven

Srsly?

Sounds like you already feel you know the answer to your questions.

Sulla Felix

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Yea but what's doing that is what I'd like to know

We don't know for sure. There's lots of theories, but anyone who tells you they know for sure is either delusional or a liar.

shadowcomplex

Sulla Felix wrote: »

We don't know for sure. There's lots of theories, but anyone who tells you they know for sure is either delusional or a liar.

It can't be scientific , that for sure

Sulla Felix

shadowcomplex wrote: »

It can't be scientific , that for sure

Why not?

shadowcomplex

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Why not?

Because if it was scientific matter always existed

Sulla Felix

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Because if it was scientific matter always existed

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

shadowcomplex

Sulla Felix wrote: »

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Ill assume you are referring to the word science

I will let you know I studied science in college and am working in the field

TheChizler

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Ill assume you are referring to the word science

I will let you know I studied science in college and am working in the field

Social?

shadowcomplex

Sulla Felix wrote: »

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Perhaps you were referring to
The world because , if so I apologise

Sulla Felix

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Ill assume you are referring to the word science

I will let you know I studied science in college and am working in the field

Alright, and how is it scientific that "matter always existed"?
And we know you studied science in college, you told us several times during your thread about the youtube evidence of heaven's existence.

shadowcomplex

TheChizler wrote: »

Social?

Chemistry , earning 60k a year , jealous yet

TheChizler

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Chemistry , earning 60k a year , jealous yet

Yes I know, I've been around here long enough. That was tongue in cheek.

nagirrac

We need morbert to explain it better but I'll have a shot.

There is much confusion regarding virtual particles, and indeed the whole concept of particles in subatomic physics. What we think of as matter in our macro world, like a billiard ball for example, has no equivalent in the subatomic world. The billiard ball model of the atom for example with a "solid" nucleus surrounded by a cloud of smaller "solid" things called electrons is about a century out of date.

At the fundamental level of the universe, or at least the fundamental level that is confirmed by experiment (string theory is below this level) there are quantum fields of various types that permeate our space time universe (photon fields, electron fields, etc.). A particle is an excited state in a quantum field or you can think of it like a ripple in a pond. If the ripple is stable then it gives rise to what we know of as subatomic particles, photons, quarks, electrons, etc. If the ripple is unstable then it gives rise to virtual particles which are short lived. All particles, real or virtual, emerge from some kind of quantum field. This is why the concept of "a universe from nothing" is so confusing, as all particles, whether real or virtual, are ripples in quantum fields.

At this fundamental level, matter as we think of it in our macro world does not exist. Neither does time as we think of it, but that's another story.

shadowcomplex

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Alright, and how is it scientific that "matter always existed"?
A

What would u call a scientific event that occurred where matter wasn't involved , on science e everything that begins has a physical beginning

Ave Sodalis

I think you're in the wrong forum if you really want an answer to that. I don't see how this is a religion vs atheism topic, unless you're using it as some sort of proof that god exists. If this is the case, you should know yourself that science tends not to make up fictional characters without proof of existence to explain things they don't know. Instead, there's carefully researched experiments and idea put forwards in an effort to explain. These are improved on until a satisfactory theory can be published. Saying "god did it", is not a satisfactory theory.

Mattyy

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Because if it was scientific matter always existed

Good thread ...

I'd be religious in saying I believe in god
But with no evidence only a historical document written by man (the bible)
It seems there's plausible evidence ....

In my eyes there has to be
A creator ... My understanding
Is - man has created: car, technology, language, law and order and a whole other bunch of some complicated and less complicated wonders etc etc

Something else created the world, solar system , stars , space , time the idea of 12hrs of sunlight 12hrs of darkness

I don't believe these are the same creator Although i do think - is probably responsible for everything male and female (there's a link there).. Man and woman, dog and elephant , fly and frog etc etc they all have the ability of reproduction of the same species for example

Everything in life is to well engineered
To have come from nothing / matter !
A finished product seems to have
A production line only after its tried and tested ....

There is to many current day
examples of matter
Going to waste in life to believe it can evolve in to anything but biodegradable
Or everlasting and worn over time
Unless its a germ ... And even as a germ
That must require a formula either accidentally or in the right conditions

Which leads to no germ to this day has ever evolved into something that can
Produce and design or care for another
Germ .. So I don't believe the human
Evolved like a germ like some people say

Nothing else to add to this
That will have you thinking

TheChizler

I read that expecting it to rhyme... Could you phrase it again in the form of a haiku?

Mattyy

TheChizler wrote: »

I read that expecting it to rhyme... Could you phrase it again in the form of a haiku?

Yeah sure, Just getting my point across
Ill do it in haiku tomorrow for you...

Turtwig

I like these variants:
t < 0 Some say there was matter, others say there wasn't. Most agreed that nothing mattered.
t > 0 Matter all over the place and everything matters.

That one, or technically this universe always existed. That is all we really know. Anything else is meaningless gravy.

Just personal preferences really.

TheChizler

What about t = 0??

Turtwig

Oh now that is truly special.

endacl

Mattyy wrote: »

Good thread ...

I'd be religious in saying I believe in god
But with no evidence only a historical document written by man (the bible)
It seems there's plausible evidence ....

In my eyes there has to be
A creator ... My understanding
Is - man has created: car, technology, language, law and order and a whole other bunch of some complicated and less complicated wonders etc etc

Something else created the world, solar system , stars , space , time the idea of 12hrs of sunlight 12hrs of darkness

Edit:

I don't believe these are the same creator Although i do think - is probably responsible for everything male and female (there's a link there).. Man and woman, dog and elephant , fly and frog etc etc they all have the ability of reproduction of the same species for example

Everything in life is to well engineered
To have come from nothing / matter !
A finished product seems to have
A production line only after its tried and tested ....

There is to many current day
examples of matter
Going to waste in life to believe it can evolve in to anything but biodegradable
Or everlasting and worn over time
Unless its a germ ... And even as a germ
That must require a formula either accidentally or in the right conditions

Which leads to no germ to this day has ever evolved into something that can
Produce and design or care for another
Germ .. So I don't believe the human
Evolved like a germ like some people say

Nothing else to add to this
That will have you thinking

Has me thinking all right.

Has me thinking 'this again'?

:rolleyes:
I'll take one paragraph. I'll leave the others for somebody with a little more patience.

In my eyes - Fair enough. They're your eyes.

there has to be - A creator ... - Why? Exactly?

My understanding - Is limited.

Man didn't 'create' them...
Car: application of physics, chemistry and metallurgy.
Technology: Same, only this time starting with the pokey-stick-for-getting-insects-out-of-rotten-wood-to-eat-ology.
Language: Seriously?
Law and Order: Inevitable emergent property of a social species. Chimps have it too.
Some complicated and less complicated wonders etc etc: Insufficient data to provide weary response...

You're really going to have to up your game.

endacl

This forum should have an entrance exam. :pac:

Turtwig

endacl wrote: »

This forum should have an entrance exam. :pac:

I'd fail. So, no.

endacl

Jernal wrote: »

I'd fail. So, no.

I'm sure you'd do just grand.

Beruthiel

endacl wrote: »

This forum should have an entrance exam. :pac:

I declare that Admins should be exempt because.. for.. eh.. [insert reason here].
>_>
<_<

magicbastarder

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Chemistry , earning 60k a year , jealous yet

are we taking the OP seriously?
thinly veiled 'i earn 60k a year' post.

Myksyk

Mattyy wrote: »

...no germ to this day has ever evolved into something that can
Produce and design or care for another
Germ .. So I don't believe the human
Evolved like a germ like some people say

/facepalm.

ibstar

Mattyy wrote: »

But with no evidence only a historical document written by man (the bible)
It seems there's plausible evidence ....

You answered your question yourself. Man,made god. In other words, made up by man.Done in order to explain things, people/thinkers at that time couldn't explain.


Something else created the world, solar system , stars , space , time the idea of 12hrs of sunlight 12hrs of darkness

12hrs of sunligh,12hrs of darkness. It's not exactly 12hrs throughout the year. Depending on the season the amount of darkness and sunlight changes. And if we look at it theoretically, we can say that there is never darkness on planet earth or vice versa. Also hours are another unit that we humans have developed in order to measure time (time as we see it,human time)

I don't believe these are the same creator Although i do think - is probably responsible for everything male and female (there's a link there).. Man and woman, dog and elephant , fly and frog etc etc they all have the ability of reproduction of the same species for example

If you accept the bible and it's teachings as a plausible evidence, then my friend you have just made "God" angry.

Everything in life is to well engineered
To have come from nothing / matter !
A finished product seems to have
A production line only after its tried and tested ....

I suggest you read more physics & biology. Studying physics(not necessarily in University) will give you a lot of answers about our universe as we see it.
On "life part so well engineered" part. You're forgetting about sicknesses, cancers and organs in our and different creatures bodies that have no use at all.

Here's some food for thought on the above topics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASmQmYX-71Q


There is to many current day
examples of matter
Going to waste in life to believe it can evolve in to anything but biodegradable
Or everlasting and worn over time
Unless its a germ ... And even as a germ
That must require a formula either accidentally or in the right conditions

On the right track (restored a little "Faith" in humanity))

Which leads to no germ to this day has ever evolved into something that can
Produce and design or care for another
Germ .. So I don't believe the human
Evolved like a germ like some people say

Here's some more material for you (the prof is a Christian which makes his lecture a kind of a paradox). Very well worded and explained about evolution (even how we are distant relatives to monkeys :eek:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg

Nothing else to add to this
That will have you thinking

Your head must be fuming :rolleyes:

sbsquarepants

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Alright, and how is it scientific that "matter always existed"?
And we know you studied science in college, you told us several times during your thread about the youtube evidence of heaven's existence.

What - heaven is on youtube? WTF!

Mattyy wrote: »

Everything in life is to well engineered

You've obviously never had the pleasure of driving a renault.

Sycopat

magicbastarder wrote: »

are we taking the OP seriously?
thinly veiled 'i earn 60k a year' post.

Based on my experience in industry, I wouldnt recommend it. If he does earn that much its extremely unlikely the job is not middle management*.


*Not that i have a clue what they make I left industry as soon as i saw that career path looming.

robindch

Sycopat wrote: »

*Not that i have a clue what they make.

They work mainly with Administratium.

kylith

I'm not a physicist, but if I remember junior cert science: matter appeared with the big bang, and time began with the big bang. Therefore matter has been around since the beginning of time (as we understand it)

Mattyy wrote: »

Everything in life is to well engineered

If everything is so well engineered why do I sometimes bite the inside of my cheek? And why does the appendix spontaneously try to kill us? And how come grasshoppers sometimes jump so strongly that their legs come off? Why is it that bees' stingers pull their guts out, killing them, after they've stung? What kind of shítty engineering is that?

Sorry, but anyone who thinks that organisms are perfectly engineered really hasn't spent enough time observing the natural world.

ibstar

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Chemistry , earning 60k a year , jealous yet

Studied science and works in Chemistry field earning 60k.
Writes a scientific argument like he just came out of a leaving cert mock exam.
No theory to back up, or contradict the current theory of matter and evolution and origin of the matter. No hypothesis or references to articles,books or even wiki for that matter..... Only thing I see in the OP is the hypothesis, which is as good as the one I read in the Bible and Quran.
I guess with me never studying science and knowing what to do to start a scientific argument/hypothesis, I should be earning well into six figure salary if I go to work in the so called "Chemistry field" now.
Bite me OP.

GarIT

Mattyy wrote: »

12hrs of sunlight 12hrs of darkness

Greetings from earth. Which planet do you come from?

Kidchameleon

Perhaps the universe didnt have a begining, it could have just always existed. Time is just a tool we use to put things into perspective. Perhaps someday we will be advanced enough to think in terms of infinity.

PopePalpatine

Depending on your definition of "always", you could say the universe has always existed, as time (as we know it) didn't exist before the Big Bang.

jaffusmax

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Is this statement true or false ? If there is no god then matter has to have always existed because how can nothing create anything ? But from a scientific point of view this doesn't make sense because everything physical has a beginning , I'd like to start a discussion on this

Neither can have existed until they can be observed by an observer. Gods and Matter could have been popping in and out of existence for an eternity until an entity like us makes them real by observing them! So in my opinion intelligence and awareness of the universe is the beginning of everything. But the downside is it opens a Pandoras box of questions we cannot always answer like, how did the universe we are observing begin and how will it end?

magicbastarder

if god does exist, surely he is intelligent and fulfilled the observer role?
were the dinosaurs not real if humans were not around to observe them?

jaffusmax

magicbastarder wrote: »

if god does exist, surely he is intelligent and fulfilled the observer role?
were the dinosaurs not real if humans were not around to observe them?

To answer both question you require Faith in Religion and Science. Firstly in that God even existed and secondly that an Alien Ship did not dump Dinosaur bones on earth after cooking up their flesh for a massive interstellar Party!

As humans we can only follow the evidence and use our intelligence to the best of our ability and have faith that our methods are correct! So If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? Unless we can prove it does with observation we must have faith in science that it does!

Ultimately we are going to be limited by our intelligence and the evidence in the search for God and the Beginning of Matter!

Doctor DooM

Is it weird?

that I can always tell the posts that will contain psuedoscientific rubbish

By the way they are formatted?

I hate the fact that I have gotten to the point where I judge some posts before I have even read them

Yet

i cannot stop

Sarky

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Perhaps the universe didnt have a begining, it could have just always existed. Time is just a tool we use to put things into perspective. Perhaps someday we will be advanced enough to think in terms of infinity.

Mathematicians already think in terms of multiple infinities, unreal numbers and more esoteric stuff. Humanity already has that sh*t down.

Morbert

shadowcomplex, do you believe the universe can be understood in its entirety by humans?

DuckSlice

Did you get a 10k raise in the last 2months?

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056967085/1/#post84989614

ibstar

etxp wrote: »

Did you get a 10k raise in the last 2months?

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056967085/1/#post84989614

m8 the "Chemistry field" sure is desperate these days :eek: