Criticise your own side

KingOfFairview

So, can you admit you own side* doesn't always get it right, in general terms rather than about one specific issue??

For example, I'm very left-wing, most would describe me as a socialist. However, I do think the left, in general, doesn't attribute people with enough personal responsibility. I do think broad social trends are very important, and anyone who dismisses them is a fool. someone who grows up dirt poor, with abusive parents and a family full of criminals has very little chance of living a decent life, and this is not their fault. I do find that the left can often consider a person basically absolved of all their crimes and not responsible for any of their actions in this situation though.

Also, the left has a tendency to designate particular demographics as victims and others as aggressors, and can be really myopic about that. For instance, today while I read a criticism of a ridiculously misogynistic article about drunken sex, someone said "men shouldn't get women drunk". how can a man get a woman drunk??? Unless he literally forces her to drink, the it's not possible. the left tends to designate women as victims (which they undoubtedly are some times) and ignores the fact they are grown adults who make just as informed decisions as men.

So, anyone else want to fess up that it's not all sunshine unt lollypops on their side of the fence?


*broadly speaking I mean politically.

lkionm

My left side isnt as strong as my right

Czarcasm

I'm sure there's a point in there somewhere KOF, but does anyone else feel it went right over their heads, or was that just me?

Karpops

I agree. I'm also left wing but I'm getting a bit annoyed by the amount of people who seem to want for everything but don't consider the financial implications of how much it might cost to run something

For example, the water charge. Realistically, cleaning and purifying water to make it safe to drink costs a lot of money so it makes sense that we should contribute to it in some way, at least if we are using excess amounts and waste it. I would also be in favour of a higher tax rate to make up for the shortfalls in education and healthcare, like what Denmark have, but everyone seems to want both for nothing, or for very little.

KingOfFairview

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'm sure there's a point in there somewhere KOF, but does anyone else feel it went right over their heads, or was that just me?

Basically, what do you not like about the political 'side' that you're on?

thecatspjs

The only problem with a dictatorship is succession. I will admit this one flaw.

Jimoslimos

I too am left leaning on most social and economical issues. However I think gross political abuses and corruption by various left-wing governments throughout the world tend to be overlooked, because well at least they're not nasty capitalist pigs.

I have also been guilty of falling into the trap of believing that large corporations and private enterprise are inherently evil - designed to drive the common man into a life of poverty and slavery. Making money is ok (exploitation isn't), the government's job should be to interfere only when this impacts on people's freedoms.

Call Me Jimmy

I lean exactly 69% to the left of center politically and I feel that this is important in the grand scheme of things.

Czarcasm

KingOfFairview wrote: »

Basically, what do you not like about the political 'side' that you're on?

Ohh right, ok, well that's probably why it went over my head, because I'm considered conservative by some, liberal by others, but both camps would tend to agree I'm basically a clueless gobshìte! :pac:

Truth be told I don't really do any political or social affiliative labels, every issue has it's own nuances and particulars so I tend not to tie myself down to either side.

I suppose I'd be what John Cleese would refer to as a "Moderate"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLNhPMQnWu4

MadsL

I'm a 'liberal' by most US definitions, goddam hippy by the definitions of the right-wing US.

However, 'liberal' (hate that term) America gets gun control spectacularly wrong.

shleedance

I'm centre-left.

Both extremes are bad. The extreme left want to nanny and tolerate everything, and the extreme right are often racist thugs. Keeping or leaning towards the centre seems to be the best.

Amerika

In the US, republicans and so-called conservatives are just too damn soft and afraid to really go hard against the biased media. And don't even get me going on their spending habits since GWB took office when they let the democrats spend like there's no tommorrow just to get them to sign onto legislation. :mad:

Amerika

MadsL wrote: »

I'm a 'liberal' by most US definitions, goddam hippy by the definitions of the right-wing US.

I was a full blown peace and love, anti-war protesting, lived on a commune, smelly hippie from the days of Woodstock. Now I'm a conservative. Believe it or not, many of us original hippies grew up to be conservatives.

Duckworth_Luas

Amerika wrote: »

I was a full blown peace and love, anti-war protesting, lived on a commune, smelly hippie from the days of Woodstock. Now I'm a conservative. Believe it or not, many of us original hippies grew up to be conservatives.

Did the smell ever go away?

Amerika

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Did the smell ever go away?

Yup, we discoverd the cure. Baths!

MadsL

Amerika wrote: »

I was a full blown peace and love, anti-war protesting, lived on a commune, smelly hippie from the days of Woodstock. Now I'm a conservative. Believe it or not, many of us original hippies grew up to be conservatives.

I always said "Scratch a hippy, get a reactionary"; I met a dreadlocked girl recently who threatened a festival with a lawsuit for trying to prevent her (undocumented) service dog (for her depression) entering the festival. She depressingly used the words "my lawyer". Uggh.

crockholm

I'm on the right,and the thing that drives me nuts about conservative thinking is the perception of mid to lower middle class people,i.e. the trades an manual labour.These creeps like Tom P (don't want to get sued),whose only priority is to drive down wages down the bottom of the pyramid,so those at the top reap more.

Time was when folks could stand against it,but with the amount of unqualified workers out there now,I believe the battle is lost.Even now,the big building companies are no longer employing direct,instead going for sub-contractors,who are in turn hiring agency workers.

I believe that if you ain't white-collar,you'd best be careful,because the assholes at the top have no sense of loyalty to your previous endevours.

Duggy747

Extremes on both ends who are the minority but have the loudest voices, talk the biggest amount of shìt and, ultimately, make me cringe.

On the far left you have some people (I know a lot who fall in this bracket) who complain about the lack of democracy and free speech in a country like Ireland while at the same time try their best to undermine and insult anyone who has an opinion or view that's not in line with theirs.

I consider myself a moderate left, though in the eyes of some people I knew, if I'm not fully fledged then I'm still a "sheep" who can't see the truth.....................their truth, apparently. For example, I'm for women's rights but if I don't out-and-out call myself a feminist then I apparently still have a problem with women.

On the extreme and comical side, I was a "heartless prick" for not following and criticizing the whole Kony circus or that I "couldn't see the truth" about flat LCD monitors replacing CRT ones because it was solely a corporate plan to take sheeple's money, blah blah, America was somehow to blame for it.............because a Youtube video said so.

When I pulled out the misrepresented "facts" on the video, I was told "Well, sometimes you have to lie to get people on your side!".

A lot of people I knew were more like the types who chose a left stance because it was more fashionable / hot on Facebook rather than actually think for themselves. Jackpot if it was to hate America or a multinational corporation.

Or, the new flavour at the moment, Freeman arguments.

Adyx

I really, really hate atheists. Bunch of preachy, condescending, know-it-all snobs. And I am one.

Czarcasm

Adyx wrote: »

I really, really hate atheists. Bunch of preachy, condescending, know-it-all snobs. And I am one.

Ahh no, in fairness now that's more preachy, condescending, know-it-all snobs who just happen to be atheist.

You're an atheist, but you shouldn't let the ideology define who you are as a person.

Jimoslimos

Adyx wrote: »

I really, really hate atheists. Bunch of preachy, condescending, know-it-all snobs. And I am one.

I've heard of self-hating Jews but this is a new one!

shleedance

He has a point. There are a number of atheists that are so up their arses that it pisses me off. They try to be the masters of logic and reason when most of their arguments basically deduct to "SHUT UP IM RIGHT YOUR DUMB BECAUSE GOD OR SOMETHING" to anyone who even hints they're a bit religious. Why not attack the extremists instead who shove this kind of stuff down people's throats?

What these atheists don't realise is that such people aren't really doing anything wrong if they're not forcing their religion on others. The same people could still be pretty intelligent, progressive etc. anyway, and only see religion as a moral guideline than something literal. I still think their gods and religions are made up, but I'd rather they discover this themselves than me telling them. This is coming from an atheist.

uch

I'm a Shamrock Rovers Supporter, so for me we'll just leave it as it is!

Sinfonia

Holding a stance in advance of an issue being presented seems generally ridiculous.

uch

Sinfonia wrote: »

Holding a stance in advance of an issue being presented seems generally ridiculous.

Wins, rest is immaterial

Adyx

Czarcasm wrote: »

Ahh no, in fairness now that's more preachy, condescending, know-it-all snobs who just happen to be atheist.

You're an atheist, but you shouldn't let the ideology define who you are as a person.

Correct, you shouldn't and I don't. Atheist is way down on the list of things that I am. For a lot of people it seems their atheism is as important to them as religion is to others. Preaching atheists are just as annoying as preaching religious people.

And maybe it's just a result of the large numbers of atheists on Boards, but mention in a thread about what you're giving up for lent or how you don't eat meat on Good Fridays and within 5 minutes you'll have someone calling you a "sheeple", deluded or ask about your invisible friend in the sky.

Anyway this isn't the thread for me to rant on and on in.

Christ the Redeemer

Amerika wrote: »

In the US, republicans and so-called conservatives are just too damn soft and afraid to really go hard against the biased media. And don't even get me going on their spending habits since GWB took office when they let the democrats spend like there's no tommorrow just to get them to sign onto legislation. :mad:

Democrats: responsible for spending no matter what.

Oh, wait... the OP: I'm pretty cool but I hate fking christians.

MadsL

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

Democrats: responsible for spending no matter what.

Oh, wait... the OP: I'm pretty cool but I hate fking christians.

Ironic username being ironic and all. We get that.

cletus van damme

i'm right wing on most issues but i cringe when religion is brought in to justify a stance.


actually don't see myself as "ring wing" per se but I seem to oppose most things "the left" come out with.


interest topic tbh.

Choptree

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'm sure there's a point in there somewhere KOF, but does anyone else feel it went right over their heads, or was that just me?

Just you I think. Bit slow are we?

Czarcasm

Choptree wrote: »

Just you I think. Bit slow are we?

Don't confuse me!

Grayson

Adyx wrote: »

Correct, you shouldn't and I don't. Atheist is way down on the list of things that I am. For a lot of people it seems their atheism is as important to them as religion is to others. Preaching atheists are just as annoying as preaching religious people.

And maybe it's just a result of the large numbers of atheists on Boards, but mention in a thread about what you're giving up for lent or how you don't eat meat on Good Fridays and within 5 minutes you'll have someone calling you a "sheeple", deluded or ask about your invisible friend in the sky.

Anyway this isn't the thread for me to rant on and on in.

I used to be the athiest who hated athiests. I thought Richard dawkins was one of the most irritating people I've ever read. And honestly mose days I do think he is. But more recently I've started looking at religious people and thinking of them as grown ups who still believe in santa. And it's impossible to take them seriously.
I can respect cultural differences, but the second i see them voting along religious lines (for example against gay marriage) then i have an urge to tell them they're idiots. I feel even more pissed off for part time religious people. The ones who pay lip service but barely do anything else. they're just too lazy or scared to move away from the religion and because of them the catholic church can still claim to have so many followers.

Back on topic, even though I'm a man I'd describe myself as a feminist. It is wrong that women are still excluded from some areas. It's wrong that an accident of birth should affect anyones life. But i do get pissed off when I see feminists dismissing issues that affect men. Things like fathers rights. I'd describe myself as a femist because it's the right thing. Feminism is and should be about gender equality, not about empowering one gender.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Left wingers who don't know how to protest collectively (and by that, I include about 90% of them).

anncoates

I don't like the idea of being on a side as it suggests that your reaction to issues is strictly governed by your allegiance to that side.

My overall views on a range of issues place me in a certain political spectrum so even though my views on, say, 80% of issues place me squarely within a left/liberal outlook it means that I don't have any qualms about not sharing certain views with others in the same place.

That might sound obvious but many people do allow ideology or core beliefs to influence how they process events rather than let their core beliefs be shaped by their objective assessment - and most importantly - their experience of events.

Choptree

As someone on the Federer side I give credit to Nadal and respect him as one of the greatest of all time. Just not the greatest like Fed.

kupus

Probably the worst thing about the conservative side is religion as Im atheist it does bug me, but preaching atheists as somebody mentioned bug me even more.

And as for anti this and anti that, give me a break, what people get upto in the privacy of their home or their lives....so what. If gays want to get married let them.
Just because divorce lawyers are waiting for the extra business in the long grass, shouldnt stop them.

Tiddlypeeps

shleedance wrote: »

What these atheists don't realise is that such people aren't really doing anything wrong if they're not forcing their religion on others. The same people could still be pretty intelligent, progressive etc. anyway, and only see religion as a moral guideline than something literal. I still think their gods and religions are made up, but I'd rather they discover this themselves than me telling them. This is coming from an atheist.

I think the main reason we see a lot of this is because the church still has so much sway over the state. You are still disadvantaged in a lot of ways if you are not a catholic in this country.

I only ever see snide comments and debates consistently spark up around catholic subjects. If someone started a thread about something related to a hindu or buddist holiday (as long as they weren't demanding everyone comply to their religion) I can almost guarantee you wouldn't see nearly the same level of heated debate, if any. There is no resentment towards those religions in this country because they aren't constantly trying to be an influence in their lives, unlike the catholic church.

I'm not trying to say there are no obnoxious athiests because there certainly are, I'm just trying to put into perspective why a lot of athiests feel the need to put down anyone who says they are catholic. Even if that person isn't trying to push their views down the athiests throat they are still directly supporting an organisation that is trying to push it's views down their throat.

Czarcasm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Left wingers who don't know how to protest collectively (and by that, I include about 90% of them).

I think a lot of the reason for that though is because people who identify as left wing tend to think with a more ego-centric ideology than they'd be willing to acknowledge of themselves.

By that I mean that they're very much thinking more about the individual than the collective, they think that their individual way is the best way, as opposed to thinking about the best way for everybody.

If the left were to form a collective and cohesive manifesto, they would be thinking more like conservatives, because conservatives are all about regulation, formalising and putting procedures in place to benefit the collective.

Fighting as a collective for the rights of the individual is a bit of a contradiction in terms for them.

Dyr

Most creeds have default positions on certains topics and they will rarely change them to reflect the changes in the circumstances or the assumptions that were valid when those default positions were first arrived at

Tiddlypeeps

Czarcasm wrote: »

I think a lot of the reason for that though is because people who identify as left wing tend to think with a more ego-centric ideology than they'd be willing to acknowledge of themselves.

By that I mean that they're very much thinking more about the individual than the collective, they think that their individual way is the best way, as opposed to thinking about the best way for everybody.

If the left were to form a collective and cohesive manifesto, they would be thinking more like conservatives, because conservatives are all about regulation, formalising and putting procedures in place to benefit the collective.

Fighting as a collective for the rights of the individual is a bit of a contradiction in terms for them.

Weird I would have though right wing was more self serving and focused on the individual than the left.

I have no idea which side I fall on, I believe in capitalism (implemented correctly, no boosting of failing enterprises etc.), i believe in private education and health care but I also believe there should be a safety net there to make sure that everyone has the opportunity to take part in the system, social welfare and help towards education and health care for those that can't afford it etc. Low taxes and a small government with only as much control as is strictly necessary.

No idea where that puts me because some of my views are very right wing and some are very left.

shleedance

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I think the main reason we see a lot of this is because the church still has so much sway over the state. You are still disadvantaged in a lot of ways if you are not a catholic in this country.

I only ever see snide comments and debates consistently spark up around catholic subjects. If someone started a thread about something related to a hindu or buddist holiday (as long as they weren't demanding everyone comply to their religion) I can almost guarantee you wouldn't see nearly the same level of heated debate, if any. There is no resentment towards those religions in this country because they aren't constantly trying to be an influence in their lives, unlike the catholic church.

I'm not trying to say there are no obnoxious athiests because there certainly are, I'm just trying to put into perspective why a lot of athiests feel the need to put down anyone who says they are catholic. Even if that person isn't trying to push their views down the athiests throat they are still directly supporting an organisation that is trying to push it's views down their throat.

I meant in general, not just in Ireland. However, many "Catholics" here don't really practice their religion, so I've never really had an issue with most people.

If you expect me to go to a church however, **** off.

shleedance

I thought Richard dawkins was one of the most irritating people I've ever read

He's still pretty tame to the usual militant atheist.

KyussBishop

I criticize the left largely for not having an accurate understanding of economics, and getting caught in the same net of empirically-false ideology-pushing (where it comes to economics), that they accuse the right of.

A lot of economics in college today teaches parts of macroeconomics as fact (such as the 'money multiplier' theory of money creation), which are just plain false - and this kind of stuff has poisoned all economic discourse, giving it a built-in conservative bent; where the limit to what you can do in an economy, is not your physical resources, but 'money' - allowing the right to gain power by-default every time there is an economic crisis that causes a money squeeze.

The left is feebly powerless today - largely because the left have adopted economics, that is actually right-wing to its core, but people just aren't aware of that, because they have accepted right-wing economic narrative as 'fact' and inherent 'truth', and are put-off learning economics because they (rightly) see academic teaching of it as a mess.

So people on the left have to individually teach themselves instead (until support for new economics reaches a tipping point - maybe decades away), evaluating sources online, and having a critical mind about it; who will want to expend the effort doing this though? Not many.

Tiddlypeeps

shleedance wrote: »

I meant in general, not just in Ireland. However, many "Catholics" here don't really practice their religion, so I've never really had an issue with most people.

If you expect me to go to a church however, **** off.

The point still stands for any country in general. Where you have a religious organisation that has a hold of the government and a subsection of people that want secularisation (not sure if that's even a word >_<) they are going to have resentment towards the religious organisation and the members that give it it's power.

In Ireland they don't expect you to go to church, but they do expect you to send your children to their schools and to obey their rules.

Potatoeman

Grayson wrote: »

I used to be the athiest who hated athiests. I thought Richard dawkins was one of the most irritating people I've ever read. And honestly mose days I do think he is. But more recently I've started looking at religious people and thinking of them as grown ups who still believe in santa. And it's impossible to take them seriously.
I can respect cultural differences, but the second i see them voting along religious lines (for example against gay marriage) then i have an urge to tell them they're idiots. I feel even more pissed off for part time religious people. The ones who pay lip service but barely do anything else. they're just too lazy or scared to move away from the religion and because of them the catholic church can still claim to have so many followers.

Back on topic, even though I'm a man I'd describe myself as a feminist. It is wrong that women are still excluded from some areas. It's wrong that an accident of birth should affect anyones life. But i do get pissed off when I see feminists dismissing issues that affect men. Things like fathers rights. I'd describe myself as a femist because it's the right thing. Feminism is and should be about gender equality, not about empowering one gender.

Wouldnt that make you a humanist? I was having this conversation with someone at work about higher male unemoloyment after the downturn and quotas for both sexes.

Czarcasm

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Weird I would have though right wing was more self serving and focused on the individual than the left.

Right wing anything implies the majority, might is right and all that malarkey, anything to the left is in the minority because it disagrees with established norms, whether that be in politics as the most obvious one, social issues, or economics.

I have no idea which side I fall on, I believe in capitalism (implemented correctly, no boosting of failing enterprises etc.), i believe in private education and health care but I also believe there should be a safety net there to make sure that everyone has the opportunity to take part in the system, social welfare and help towards education and health care for those that can't afford it etc. Low taxes and a small government with only as much control as is strictly necessary.

No idea where that puts me because some of my views are very right wing and some are very left.

That's the thing about people and labels, some people are far too quick to label other people, and it's usually left thinking people who love to label the majority who disagree with them as conservative old farts with capitalist ideologies, as if that's always a bad thing?

The same left want to fit in and belong to something, the same as most human beings, but their thinking doesn't allow for a collective thought process, hence why the Occupy movement died on it's arse after a few short months versus an establishment that's been that way for centuries.

As for social issues, well I'm still a capitalist, but I believe in creating an environment for entrepreneurship to flourish, rather than giving state handouts to those less economically fortunate than others. I'll teach a guy to fish for himself rather than just give him the fish I caught. That knowledge will sustain him long term and foster an attitude of self sufficiency and self reliance rather than depending on everyone else to support him.

As far as religion goes, well I was a human being before I was ever a Roman Catholic, so for me even though I go to mass every Sunday, the church doesn't need any more money, and certainly not any more of my money on the collection plate, so I get a few stares when I pass the basket on, but I'm ok with that. If the church needs a new roof, there's a chalice there worth a few euro that the priest could take down to the cash for gold shop. Makes no odds to me whether I worship in a ditch or in an elegant looking building decked out with all finery while the priest gives it welly about living a life of humility. God doesn't give a fiddlers about material possessions and neither do I. Just don't expect of to give away that which I have worked for, for nothing.

shleedance

In Ireland they don't expect you to go to church, but they do expect you to send your children to their schools and to obey their rules.

I don't want to force any of my future kids to be atheists. That's their decision. I would however encourage them to engage in critical thinking.

As for schools, they can easily opt out of religion if they wished. That's what I did.

Sandals and Shorts

KingOfFairview wrote: »

So, can you admit you own side* doesn't always get it right, in general terms rather than about one specific issue??

So, anyone else want to fess up that it's not all sunshine unt lollypops on their side of the fence?

Funny, but not surprising how most people here have ignored the OP.

I'm a left wing christian and I abhor the extremists on this side as much as the right wing and/or atheist extremists on the other side.

I find some people don't even know where they lie on the political compass, but think they do.



Take the test :

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Czarcasm wrote: »

I suppose I'd be what John Cleese would refer to as a "Moderate"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLNhPMQnWu4

Great video, thanks for posting that. I recommend everyone watches it.

Leftist

i could never criticise ireland/erin. It's just too perfect. Yes o.k it has it's faults, which nation doesn't.
It's got poor healthcare, It’s parochial, it’s nationality obsessed, yes the policies of the government and the culture of the voting public are largely modeled on the 1960s American bible belt and o.k, yes, most built up areas are designed with sprawling, ugly housing estates where there is nothing really for anyone to do but drink and watch tv. Which o.k, is all we do anyway.
but nobody said it was perfect.

shleedance

It's too perfect yet nobody said it was perfect?

Wat

conorhal

crockholm wrote: »

I'm on the right,and the thing that drives me nuts about conservative thinking is the perception of mid to lower middle class people,i.e. the trades an manual labour.These creeps like Tom P (don't want to get sued),whose only priority is to drive down wages down the bottom of the pyramid,so those at the top reap more.

Time was when folks could stand against it,but with the amount of unqualified workers out there now,I believe the battle is lost.Even now,the big building companies are no longer employing direct,instead going for sub-contractors,who are in turn hiring agency workers.

I believe that if you ain't white-collar,you'd best be careful,because the assholes at the top have no sense of loyalty to your previous endevours.

Ditto, I sit slightly to the right of Ghengis Kahn but fully believe in effective regulation, libertarianism is an abhorrent concept to any true conservative. Conservativism should be about solidarity, mutual respect and rights and RESPONSIBILITIES. Part of being responsible is a concern and consideration for your neighbour and your fellow man. Libertarianism seems to me, more like an entitlement to exploit and walk all over people, it's an act of collective narcisism and would produce nothing less then an empathy free, compassionless psychopathic society.

Look at the Quakers for example, a very poius and christian comunity that I doubt anybody would consider 'liberal', at the same time they are very industrious (hard work is considered a virtue), many great companies were founded by Quakers, Cadbury's I think is one, and they had a very strong social concience, there was an ethos of building housing and providing healthcare and community based projects for employees as well as a requirement to donate a percentage of their income to charity.

Most of the most involved, compassionate and considerate people I know are conservatives.