How shopping in Belfast led to a Chinese student being deported from Ireland

Banjo String

A YOUNG Chinese woman, who has been living in Ireland for almost eight years, is today facing deportation - all because of a shopping day-trip to Belfast.

Barrister Keith Spencer told the High Court today that Qiaohua Zhang, of Belmayne Park South, Balgriffin, Co Dublin, had been studying in Dublin on a valid student visa for the past seven and a half years.
He said her visa had expired on January 23rd last and, while she had been living in Ireland illegally since then, she had remained in contact with the Garda National Immigration Bureau while attempting to negotiate a visa extension.


Mr Spencer said Ms Zhang had a long-term boyfriend and a close network of friends in Dublin. She spoke English, worked as a waitress to finance her college education and was seeking to regularise her status through proper channels.


“On August 1st last she had travelled by bus to Belfast to do some shopping in the sales and was returning to Dublin when Garda Philip McGovern boarded the bus at Dundalk,” Mr Spencer said.
She had been detained in Dundalk by Garda McGovern, an Immigration Officer, and following inquiries with the GNIB was “refused permission to land in the State.” Garda McGovern had directed that pending her removal from the State she be detained in Mountjoy Women’s Prison.
Mr Justice Michael Peart had been asked in an Article 40 application to release Ms Zhang on grounds that her detention was not in accordance with law.


The judge said Garda McGovern had entered the bus to determine whether passengers should be given permission to enter the State. Ms Zhang had identified herself with her Irish driving licence but had no valid visa. She had always been registered with the GNIB and had kept in touch with them following expiry of her visa.

“The court has no reason to believe that Ms Zhang was untruthful with Garda McGovern and there has been no evidence she was an evader operating under the radar in the hope of not being caught,” Judge Peart said.
While she had been living unlawfully in the State since January 23 she had been making efforts to regularize her position.
Judge Peart said that having left the State to shop in Northern Ireland Ms Zhang did not realise that to be doing so she was allowing herself, on her return, to be treated as a new entrant to the State.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/chinese-student-to-be-deported-because-of-shopping-trip-to-belfast-29481115.html


Rules are rules and all that, but a bit harsh considering the woman had been in contact with gards etc, and was "making efforts to regularize her position"





I didn't know the Gards/immigration operated in such a way tbh (boarding buses coming from the north?)

He said Mr Spencer had argued that, having been resident for more than seven years, she ought not to have been arrested and detained for the purpose of removal from the State.


While Mr Spencer had submitted the relatively brief gap of absence from the State should have been ignored, the immigration laws did not make any allowance for somebody leaving the State for a day


“The applicant has to be treated as a new entrant,” Judge Peart told Fiona O’Sullivan, counsel for the State. “Garda McGovern was entitled to act as he did and form the suspicion he did and to arrest Ms Zhang and sign the warrant for her detention.”

In his view Ms Zhang’s detention was in accordance with law and he awarded the State its legal costs of defending the application for her release. Ms Zhang was returned to prison to await deportation.

Hard to believe that an innocent thing like a trip up north to avail of the sales would land you with a spell in Mountjoy and deportation.

Amirani

Very harsh in my opinion. Particularly as she was going about things fairly honestly.

Seachmall

I think this is a case where the spirit of the law is being undermined in favour of the letter of the law.

She was clearly not attempting to deceive or illegally set up residence in Ireland, she was going through the proper channels and through a simple mistake found herself in a **** position. Discretion should be used and she should treated as if she had never left for Belfast imo.

The Backwards Man

It's no different to an Irish person waiting on a GC in the states going to Canada on a daytrip and getting caught on the way back in. Harsh, but rules are rules.

happyviolet

I think that is a bit unfair tbh. At least she was doing things right by having a visa all these years and contributing by working as a waitress.

donegal11

8 years studying she must have a phd by now or pherhaps she was in the many makey-uppy English courses which sole purpose was to circumvent the work permit system?

Fr_Dougal

Living here illegally, working illegally and paying no tax; try that in Australia or the US and see what happens when you're caught.

GLaDOS

Hopefully she can sort out a swift (and legal!) return to the country.

Seachmall

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Living here illegally, working illegally

While her status is that of an illegal immigrant she was recognised and acknowledged to be living and working here by the INIS, who evidently allow that in certain cases.

Grayson

The Backwards Man wrote: »

It's no different to an Irish person waiting on a GC in the states going to Canada on a daytrip and getting caught on the way back in. Harsh, but rules are rules.

Except the US and canada don't have the same kind of boarder that we have with NI. I've driven through it hundreds of times and haven't been stopped once since the troubles ended.

hfallada

She should not have traveled to NI full stop. My mother works with non-nationals who all know that they should not go to NI and avoid roads that could accidentally led to NI, as they can be deported.

However she is educated and the type of immigrants Ireland should be happy to have and attract. Chinese nationals have an unemployment rate of 8% compared to over 30% for some of the African nationals.

Dyr

Whats she been studying for 7 and half years? Brain surgery?

Be gas if it was geography though

The Backwards Man

Grayson wrote: »

Except the US and canada don't have the same kind of boarder that we have with NI. I've driven through it hundreds of times and haven't been stopped once since the troubles ended.

That's because you're an EU citizen. For a non-EU citizen the border at Newry is the same as the one at Niagra Falls or El Paso.

Ray Palmer

The idea that she has been study for 7 and half years is a joke. For those who don't know many people register in a "college" never attend and work in shops. The visa system for the education system is massively abused.

The one trip is not the issue it is the fact she has stayed 7.5 years already. There is nothing harsh about this given she left the state. Harsh would be to go and cancel the student visas and getting people to leave the country within a month.

I have nothing against individuals but the system is being abused and given employment figures it is a disgrace to allow it continue.

seamus

The article is very short on information as to why she allowed her visa to expire and why it continued to be expired for just over six months.

You can argue that it's harsh, but the flipside is that visas are renewable and if she couldn't or wouldn't renew hers, then she has to deal with the consequences.

stoneill

She got caught - fair play to the Garda, doing his job.

ScumLord

She's very unlucky to get caught. I've never seen anything like a border check going into the north. Usually the only way you know you've entered Northern Ireland is by how much better the roads get and all the signposts change to mph.

Capt'n Midnight

If you aren't from the EU Ireland can be very difficult with regard to visa's and stuff, even for those from USA and Canada.

Similar stuff happens the other way around, British Commonwealth citizens allowed in the UK aren't usually allowed down here.


Yes it is harsh but when you know you're in a hole you should stop digging.

Pro Hoc Vice

seamus wrote: »

The article is very short on information as to why she allowed her visa to expire and why it continued to be expired for just over six months.

You can argue that it's harsh, but the flipside is that visas are renewable and if she couldn't or wouldn't renew hers, then she has to deal with the consequences.

It expired because a student permision can not exceed 7 years. There is a timed out student permision. But it is very strict. Contrary to popular belief ireland is a very hard country to reside legally in.

The_Valeyard

The Backwards Man wrote: »

That's because you're an EU citizen. For a non-EU citizen the border at Newry is the same as the one at Niagra Falls or El Paso.

Im not sure it is because he is an EU citizen since we have opted out of the schengen agreement, but rather we operate under the common travel area between here UK, Isle of Man, Jersey & Guernsey.

But yes, Newry might as well be Niagara Falls Canadian side, Dublin is Niagara Falls USA side.

Harsh treatment though.

Stinicker

An absolute disgrace, she never left the island of Ireland and she was not some scammer like Pamela Izevbekhai.

The guard clearly just had some chip on his shoulder, Belfast is currently under British occupation and all she was doing was visiting another part of the country. She did nothing wrong other than fall foul of a guard who was clearly racially profiling. There is no border checks when you drive across the border and there should none either on buses and trains. A ridiculous situation by an ignorant partitionist guard with no sense of nationalism.

gozunda

infosys wrote: »

....Contrary to popular belief ireland is a very hard country to reside legally in.

!No it's the exact same for legal citizens of this dam festering stinking hellhole!
But You are indeed correct - It is a very hard country to reside in legally or otherwise - end of story

Pro Hoc Vice

Stinicker wrote: »

An absolute disgrace, she never left the island of Ireland and she was not some scammer like Pamela Izevbekhai.

The guard clearly just had some chip on his shoulder, Belfast is currently under British occupation and all she was doing was visiting another part of the country. She did nothing wrong other than fall foul of a guard who was clearly racially profiling. There is no border checks when you drive across the border and there should none either on buses and trains. A ridiculous situation by an ignorant partitionist guard with no sense of nationalism.

It happens all the time.

Rascasse

It's hard to have any sympathy really. She knew she didn't have a valid visa (perhaps neither a UK one too), left the state and was caught on the return.

The checks at the border for public transport are well known, so much so I assumed they were a waste of time. Perhaps not...

HurtLocker

How many more years had she planned on being a student? She was approaching a decade. What was she studying for and where? When did she plan on getting a degree and leaving. She left Ireland and entered the United Kingdom (yes nationists Belfast is in the UK and not just a part of Ireland under British occupation) and tried to re-enter Ireland with no visa to enter. I know there is basically no border but whats the point of laws if they are only applied in some cases. If I was in America on an expired visa and was in the process of getting it sorted out. There is no way Id go to Canada and try to come back. And I don't think many people would have sympathy for me if I did. She was an unlucky chancer.

Gatling

I believe she was studying for a degree in fraud


Look's like she's failed her final exam

The_Valeyard

Gatling wrote: »

I believe she was studying for a degree in fraud


Look's like she's failed her final exam

I laughed at that, probably shouldnt have.

_Kaiser_

Stinicker wrote: »

An absolute disgrace, she never left the island of Ireland and she was not some scammer like Pamela Izevbekhai.

She was here illegally - end of. It's all these "exceptions" that we make in general that have this country the way it is with its "who you know"/"ah shure it'll be grand" approach that gets nothing done.

Nothing stopping her reapplying legally though.

The guard clearly just had some chip on his shoulder

Not often I support the Gardai but he was clearly just doing his job

Belfast is currently under British occupation

Stopped reading here... 800 years blah blah... :rolleyes:

and all she was doing was visiting another part of the country. She did nothing wrong other than fall foul of a guard who was clearly racially profiling. There is no border checks when you drive across the border and there should none either on buses and trains. A ridiculous situation by an ignorant partitionist guard with no sense of nationalism.

(OK I didn't stop there...) Oh with racist profiling and partionism thrown in. You forgot the kitchen sink though!

Nodin

Gatling wrote: »

I believe she was studying for a degree in fraud


Look's like she's failed her final exam

....theres no suggestion whatever, anywhere, that she did anything dishonest. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Dyr

infosys wrote: »

It expired because a student permision can not exceed 7 years. There is a timed out student permision. But it is very strict. Contrary to popular belief ireland is a very hard country to reside legally in.

less hard to reside in for the guts of a decade though

Pro Hoc Vice

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

She was here illegally - end of. It's all these "exceptions" that we make in general that have this country the way it is with its "who you know"/"ah shure it'll be grand" approach that gets nothing done.

Nothing stopping her reapplying legally though.



Not often I support the Gardai but he was clearly just doing his job



Stopped reading here... 800 years blah blah... :rolleyes:



(OK I didn't stop there...) Oh with racist profiling and partionism thrown in. You forgot the kitchen sink though!

The main issue is the person was in I assume the section 3 process, which is the only time her rights under the constitution and the ECHR can be vindicated but by doing this the state shortcuts that process. While a person may be here illegally they may have a right to remain.

0ph0rce0

HurtLocker wrote: »

How many more years had she planned on being a student? She was approaching a decade. What was she studying for and where? When did she plan on getting a degree and leaving. She left Ireland and entered the United Kingdom (yes nationists Belfast is in IRELAND and belfast is just a part of Ireland under British occupation) and tried to re-enter Ireland with no visa to enter. I know there is basically no border but whats the point of laws if they are only applied in some cases. If I was in America on an expired visa and was in the process of getting it sorted out. There is no way Id go to Canada and try to come back. And I don't think many people would have sympathy for me if I did. She was an unlucky chancer.

Fixed that for you

mikemac1

SamHall wrote: »

I didn't know the Gards/immigration operated in such a way tbh (boarding buses coming from the north?)
.

They've been stopping buses outside Dundalk for years now.

Last time I was on the bus a Filipino couple were going to Dublin Airport. They had work visas for NI but nothing to allow them enter here and so they were taken off the bus.

Probably missed their flights but rules are rules

The_Valeyard

mikemac1 wrote: »

They've been stopping buses outside Dundalk for years now.

Last time I was on the bus a Filipino couple were going to Dublin Airport. They had work visas for NI but nothing to allow them enter here and so they were taken off the bus.

Probably missed their flights but rules are rules

Are getting on the buses as in a random check? Or are the getting tipped off about people on the bus?

FearDark

No visa. Go home. Its simple.

mikemac1

Seems random.

You might get stopped twice in a week and then go months without ever having the bus flagged down.

Everyone shows ID and if you've nothing just say your name and where you are going and it's all good

Some will get additional questioning

gumbo1

All foreign nationals that are granted a visa are told, in print form, that they must not leave the state. Northern Ireland is not a part of this state. Maybe a bit harsh but what if she knew she wasn't to leave the state and, after 7 1/2 years thought , sod it sure i'll never be found out!
If I, an Irish national, went to another country and was granted a visa with the same limitations, but travelled to another country and back to the country of visa issue I would need to reapply for a visa to re-enter!
No difference!

JONJO THE MISER

Rules are Rules, if she paid any attention to the country she was living in for the last 8 years so would of known not to go past the border, no sympathy.

HurtLocker

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

Fixed that for you

Sorry it didn't need fixing. Youll notice it's a totally different country with its own police force, public service, health service, the imperial system and tax system. She left the Republic of Ireland. She left the jurisdiction her expired visa covered. She entered the United Kingdom and until the people of the north vote to leave the UK it is not in the Republic thus a foreign country. She then attempted to reenter the Republic of Ireland from the United Kingdom without a valid visa. Harsh but reality. The occupation is just in your head. There is a recognised border between both countries

oppenheimer1

ScumLord wrote: »

She's very unlucky to get caught. I've never seen anything like a border check going into the north. Usually the only way you know you've entered Northern Ireland is by how much better the roads get and all the signposts change to mph.

You've not been to the north since the 80's, because the roads aren't any better up there now.

In fact you'd think a lot of them haven't been maintained since the 80's with the state of them.

Fr_Dougal

Nodin wrote: »

....theres no suggestion whatever, anywhere, that she did anything dishonest. Quite the opposite, in fact.

She was living here illegally. She could have left the country and applied for residency from China. They're a great bunch of lads but even the Chinese have to respect the laws of the Sate, and you cannot stay in a country when your visa expires, everybody knows this.

Nodin

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

She was living here illegally. She could have left the country and applied for residency from China. They're a great bunch of lads but even the Chinese have to respect the laws of the Sate, and you cannot stay in a country when your visa expires, everybody knows this.

She was - if anything - in "limbo", as she was not hiding her presence and was in regular contact with the relevant authorities. You might deal with what I said in the context of what I was replying to.

Mr_Spaceman

I wonder if she reckons all those Norn Iron bargains were worth it in the end?

Pro Hoc Vice

FearDark wrote: »

No visa. Go home. Its simple.

Not really.

Fr_Dougal

Nodin wrote: »

She was - if anything - in "limbo", as she was not hiding her presence and was in regular contact with the relevant authorities. You might deal with what I said in the context of what I was replying to.

She was residing here illegally, she knew the law, she should have left the State and applied from her country of residency. The relevant authorities may well have been aware of her presence, but she was still here illegally.

Pro Hoc Vice

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

She was living here illegally. She could have left the country and applied for residency from China. They're a great bunch of lads but even the Chinese have to respect the laws of the Sate, and you cannot stay in a country when your visa expires, everybody knows this.

Its not a visa its a stamp 2, a visa is required to enter a country a stamp is required to reside and in certain circumstances work. She could not have applied to reside from outside the jurisdiction, as her only option was to apply under section 3.

Mr_Spaceman

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

She was living here illegally. She could have left the country and applied for residency from China. They're a great bunch of lads but even the Chinese have to respect the laws of the Sate, and you cannot stay in a country when your visa expires, everybody knows this.

I see what you did there

Pro Hoc Vice

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

She was residing here illegally, she knew the law, she should have the State and applied from her country of residency. The relevant authorities may well have been aware of her presence, but she was still here illegally.

She had fallen out of legal residence her only option was to apply under section 3 while in the country.

Fr_Dougal

infosys wrote: »

She had fallen out of legal residence her only option was to apply under section 3 while in the country.

Really? That was her only option?

Gummy Panda

Even if she had a visa, she shouldn't be entering the UK. I'm pretty sure she has to apply to the UK for a travel visa to enter their borders legally.

Pro Hoc Vice

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Really? That was her only option?

Yes either that or leave. Once she left she could not have her constitutional or convention rights taken into account. As the SC has decided that it is only under the deportation process rip that such rights can be considered.