Pacers (and over-reliance on them)

Itziger

In another thread I was reading a comment about pacers. I don't want to highlight the thread/poster, if he wishes to join this topic here, fair enough. Anyway, it got me wondering; Are we getting a bit addicted to this pacing gig or what? The post that got me thinking went like this...

"Couldn't find the pacers for the first half of the race, eventually picked em up and then left em behind to beat Pacer's time by 5 minutes (in a Half)" Ok, it was the bloke's first Half but even then, what the heck. Go out and enjoy the run, see what you can do and as we all have bloody expensive watches now anyway..... check the pace there.

This is not an attack on the pacers btw and I can see their usefulness. Just think we're getting a bit spoilt.

ThePiedPiper

Its an interesting topic this. I've only stuck with a pace group for one of my 14 marathons, and it turned out to be a PB effort. That day, I had a 2:58:23 PB coming into the race, and came in in 2:58:16, about 20 seconds ahead of the pacer. We were a small group that day, about 15 until halfway, and only 5 or 6 of us in the closing stages. It worked well for me, although they were all Hungarian, I enjoyed the camaraderie, and solidarity of the group.

The first time I was going for a sub-3 marathon, I had this idea that I didn't want to deal with the congestion of running in a huge pace group, and ran slightly ahead of the group for over 20 miles. When they passed me out, it was very disheartening. Same thing happened me a few years later when I was targeting 2:55 in Dublin. When the sub-3 group motored by me at 19 miles, the energy and enthusiasm in the group was like a kick to the head. I should've been with those groups.

The idea though that it is a necessity to find the group, stay with it every step of the way is a bit silly though. I know in Budapest, the pacers set off too fast, I clocked 6:50 and 6:32 for the first 2 miles that day, and the pace group continued moving at 6:3x pace for at least the first 5 miles. I eased back for a couple of miles before joining the group properly somewhere after 8 miles when there were less people in it anyway. You've got to be prepared to run by how you feel yourself, going straight out at MP or under for the first mile of a marathon is not the best way to start a race.

Itziger

RunForestRun wrote: »

Its an interesting topic this. I've only stuck with a pace group for one of my 14 marathons, and it turned out to be a PB effort. That day, I had a 2:58:23 PB coming into the race, and came in in 2:58:16, about 20 seconds ahead of the pacer. We were a small group that day, about 15 until halfway, and only 5 or 6 of us in the closing stages. It worked well for me, although they were all Hungarian, I enjoyed the camaraderie, and solidarity of the group.

The first time I was going for a sub-3 marathon, I had this idea that I didn't want to deal with the congestion of running in a huge pace group, and ran slightly ahead of the group for over 20 miles. When they passed me out, it was very disheartening. Same thing happened me a few years later when I was targeting 2:55 in Dublin. When the sub-3 group motored by me at 19 miles, the energy and enthusiasm in the group was like a kick to the head. I should've been with those groups.

The idea though that it is a necessity to find the group, stay with it every step of the way is a bit silly though. I know in Budapest, the pacers set off too fast, I clocked 6:50 and 6:32 for the first 2 miles that day, and the pace group continued moving at 6:3x pace for at least the first 5 miles. I eased back for a couple of miles before joining the group properly somewhere after 8 miles when there were less people in it anyway. You've got to be prepared to run by how you feel yourself, going straight out at MP or under for the first mile of a marathon is not the best way to start a race.

Interesting, yeah you did well to adapt when the pacers were doing 6.3x miles, seems a bit crazy. I'll admit that when it comes to sub 3, I'll probably try to glue myself to a pacer or two! The post that started me thinking about this was from a first-timer at Half distance. Part of me thought, 'you're supposed to see how it goes, learn the discipline'. Yes, maybe make a couple of mistakes first time, but that's how you learn. Hopefully that will stand to you next time round.

ThePiedPiper

I can see both sides of it really. I remember back when I was doing my second marathon, all I wanted to do was to go under 3:30. I was that green that I don't think I was even aware that there may have been pacers (DCM 2006 anyone?). Anyway, started fairly easy, and picked it up after halfway, eventually finishing in 3:23, way faster than the target. I don't think running with pacers would've done me justice that day.

In half marathons, I wouldn't even consider it. I'd prefer to get every minute out of it and run by pace. That's the upside in a half. The downside is too small, for me anyway. Its unlikely that somebody could ship 10 or more minutes by running too fast in a half marathon, unless they've been ridiculously aggressive. On Monday, I started out with a certain target, was running at that pace for the first 3 miles, and ended up running the remaining miles at 20 seconds a mile faster. There were no paces for that particular time, but even if there had been, running at that pace in the early miles might have been too fast at that stage of the race, considering the course profile and my belief that the early miles in every race should be slower. The proof for this the other day was that Mile 13 was 45 seconds faster than Mile 1 for me. That couldn't have happened running with pacers.

TRR

If you are relying on a pacer you are fcuked.

If you've done the proper training and have practiced running at your goal pace etc then the pacers can be a useful aide.

TFBubendorfer

RunForestRun wrote: »

I was that green that I don't think I was even aware that there may have been pacers (DCM 2006 anyone?)

There were no pacers in 2006. The first year with pacers (after a long hiatus, that is) in Dublin was 2009.

I have never run with a pacer, but plenty of times as a pacer. It is quite telling that 90% of the runners in our group will not achieve their target time. It's always the same, no matter what time you are pacing, there is a big, mostly unchanging, group until mile 20, and by the end maybe 1 out of 10 of that group is still with you, though you tend to pick up runners who have started faster; a few of them always manage to hang on as you catch up with them.

If I were going for a certain time and there happened to be a pacer, I'd definitely go with the pacer as long as he/she knows what they're doing and run reasonably even pace, not least because that's the same strategy I would use anyway, even without a pacer. It is definitely easier to stay on pace if there is a group around you. I have run very similar times in 2 marathon recently, one entirely on my own and the other one in a pack and the second one felt so much easier!

TFBubendorfer

TRR wrote: »

If you are relying on a pacer you are fcuked.

If you've done the proper training and have practiced running at your goal pace etc then the pacers can be a useful aide.

If you rely on a pacer then yes, you are definitely royally screwed, especially in a marathon.

That does not mean they cannot be helpful, though.

tunguska

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

If you rely on a pacer then yes, you are definitely royally screwed, especially in a marathon.

That does not mean they cannot be helpful, though.

A great example springs to mind from DCM last year. Two guys stuck with the pacers and ran the pacers race as opposed to their own race. And another guy who said feck the pacers and ran according to how he felt he should best run a marathon. The 2 lads who went with the pacers blew up in spectacular fashion even though their race results and training throughout the year indicated a sub 3hr marathon was definitely on the cards.
The guy who ran his own race and paced himself ran 2:56 with a big negative split. And this guy was roundly beaten by the other two in every race leading up to the marathon. I think had the two lads run their own race according to how they as individuals felt, they would've nailed it but instead they adopted someone elses strategy and it ended in a big 10min/mile finsihing mess. Personally I think everybody should run their own race and learn the skill of self pacing as opposed to trying to get others to do that for them. You gotta be independent in races, think for yourself and make your own decisions.

HelenAnne

I ran with pacers on Monday for the first time. I've never done a marathon, but this was my fifth half, and the first time that there were pacers for a time that I was aiming for, so I just thought I'd give it a go. I loved it. I went with the 1.40 pacers and there was a small enough group of us (if the 1.40 pacers are reading this, sorry - I was definitely glued to your elbow for a while!) I found it a real help getting me going at the right pace at the start. Sometimes I can be a bit too cautious starting out. I stayed with them, maybe drifting a bit ahead on some of the up and downhills, until we got out of the park and then I think I drifted ahead on a downhill and stayed ahead. I broke 1.38 in the end, and was delighted with that.

One thing that was a real help to me about running with pacers, that I hadn't thought of before, was that some of their ease communicated itself to me; they were obviously running at an easy pace for them, and I think, psychologically, watching them made me relax and run 'easy' (I don't mean at an easy pace, I mean the opposite of tense) too. That was great for a longer race. I sometimes find if a runner is running near me in a race and they're obviously really in trouble and straining every nerve to keep going, that can make me feel tired and I try to move away from them. The pacers had the opposite effect.

I think I'd run with pacers again, especially to get me started. I'm terribly lazy about using my watch etc, but if I can get into a rhythm I can then try to stay in it.
Thanks again, pacers!

event

can only go by my own experience.
ran limerick for my first this year, wanted to break 4 hours. Decided to run ahead of the pacers, didnt want to get stuck with them or fall behind. Was running fine but at about 19 miles I was starting to struggle. They caught up with me but they helped then. One of them came over and said "stick with us". They kept shouting at everyone not to fall behind etc and were very good. At around 25 miles I was feeling better and was able to push on.

not saying they are needed, but I found them very helpful that day

Krusty_Clown

I wonder how many people who have acted in a pacing capacity would make use of a pacer during a race? Very few I'd imagine.

Pacers are never a solution to one's problems. They are simply another tool in the tool-kit. If you haven't done the training to run sub-3, then a pacer is not going to do anything for you. If you have done the training, but, are liable to flights of fancy (e.g. banking time, or getting caught up with faster runners) then sticking with a pacer will likely provide some benefit (but as Tunguska suggested, if you were capable of showing some restraint, you'd do just fine on your own).

Interesting example: Was pacing the sub-3 group in a marathon earlier this year. There was a former Olympian in the group who could comfortably run 2:50 - 2:55 and was just staying with the group until around the half-way point (making sure she could get the win, rather than aim for a specific time). At around the half way point, she pushed on, and a couple of the sub-three group went after her, while the rest hung back with us, or dropped off the pace on the hills. Those who surged forwards largely fell back over the remaining miles and missed their targets. Those who remained, largely made their targets. At the end of the day though, I'd guess that only 25-30% of the original group hit their target time. I reckon to run sub-3 you need to train like you're aiming for 2:55 (or ignore goal times, and train to maximize your result). Sticking rigidly to the pace on your Garmin watch can have an equally detrimental affect to your race strategy as putting your race in someone else's hands.

statss

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I wonder how many people who have acted in a pacing capacity would make use of a pacer during a race? Very few I'd imagine.

Pacers are never a solution to one's problems. They are simply another tool in the tool-kit. If you haven't done the training to run sub-3, then a pacer is not going to do anything for you. If you have done the training, but, are liable to flights of fancy (e.g. banking time, or getting caught up with faster runners) then sticking with a pacer will likely provide some benefit (but as Tunguska suggested, if you were capable of showing some restraint, you'd do just fine on your own).

Interesting example: Was pacing the sub-3 group in a marathon earlier this year. There was a former Olympian in the group who could comfortably run 2:50 - 2:55 and was just staying with the group until around the half-way point (making sure she could get the win, rather than aim for a specific time). At around the half way point, she pushed on, and a couple of the sub-three group went after her, while the rest hung back with us, or dropped off the pace on the hills. Those who surged forwards largely fell back over the remaining miles and missed their targets. Those who remained, largely made their targets. At the end of the day though, I'd guess that only 25-30% of the original group hit their target time. I reckon to run sub-3 you need to train like you're aiming for 2:55 (or ignore goal times, and train to maximize your result). Sticking rigidly to the pace on your Garmin watch can have an equally detrimental affect to your race strategy as putting your race in someone else's hands.

On a related topic so, seeing as you are Mr Garmin :pac:, if sticking rigidly to pace can be harmful as you say, how reliable do you think the Garmin HR data is mid race? I set an alert during the half on Monday to let me know if I hit over 90%ish of Hrmax, it beeped a few times in the first mile or two, I had started with the 1:30 pacers but felt they were going too fast so I dropped off them. Worked well for me, so I may adopt the strategy again. Be interested in your views, I'm wondering does increased race day adrenaline play havoc with usual HR zones.

Enduro

tunguska wrote: »

Personally I think everybody should run their own race and learn the skill of self pacing as opposed to trying to get others to do that for them. You gotta be independent in races, think for yourself and make your own decisions.

+1000000!

If your goal is to progress as a runner, and even more so a racer, and strive to achive your best possible times/results then being able to self pace is an absolutely vital skill.

If your goal is simply to get to get a specific time for a specific distance then pacers are obviously a very benificial aid.

Ososlo

Enduro wrote: »

+1000000!

If your goal is to progress as a runner, and even more so a racer, and strive to achive your best possible times/results then being able to self pace is an absolutely vital skill.

If your goal is simply to get to get a specific time for a specific distance then pacers are obviously a very benificial aid.

do you mean without a gps watch even? It amazes me how people do that. Guess it takes years of experience.

Itziger

HelenAnne wrote: »

I ran with pacers on Monday for the first time. I've never done a marathon, but this was my fifth half, and the first time that there were pacers for a time that I was aiming for, so I just thought I'd give it a go. I loved it. I went with the 1.40 pacers and there was a small enough group of us (if the 1.40 pacers are reading this, sorry - I was definitely glued to your elbow for a while!) I found it a real help getting me going at the right pace at the start. Sometimes I can be a bit too cautious starting out. I stayed with them, maybe drifting a bit ahead on some of the up and downhills, until we got out of the park and then I think I drifted ahead on a downhill and stayed ahead. I broke 1.38 in the end, and was delighted with that.

One thing that was a real help to me about running with pacers, that I hadn't thought of before, was that some of their ease communicated itself to me; they were obviously running at an easy pace for them, and I think, psychologically, watching them made me relax and run 'easy' (I don't mean at an easy pace, I mean the opposite of tense) too. That was great for a longer race. I sometimes find if a runner is running near me in a race and they're obviously really in trouble and straining every nerve to keep going, that can make me feel tired and I try to move away from them. The pacers had the opposite effect.

I think I'd run with pacers again, especially to get me started. I'm terribly lazy about using my watch etc, but if I can get into a rhythm I can then try to stay in it.
Thanks again, pacers!

I think this is a very good point. My original doubt is about learning for oneself and that has been highlighted now by a couple of very, very experienced runners. It's like all the threads that start with "I'm doing my first 10k on Saturday.......How should I approach it?" The number one response is almost always, 'Run it and see what happens'. If it goes well, you'll learn and if it goes badly, you'll learn (more!).

HelenAnne

Ososlo wrote: »

do you mean without a gps watch even? It amazes me how people do that. Guess it takes years of experience.

I never use my watch in a race, and I don't have very many years experience at all. It wouldn't say it works perfectly for me, because I'm not winning races or making huge leaps forward in running ability, and sometimes I get it wrong and think I'm running faster than I am, but it works OK. I do a lot of shorter races (I run in my club's 1-3 mile league races in the winter & summer, and I do parkruns and a fair amount of 10ks) so while I definitely wouldn't be a perfect pacer and I wouldn't ever be able to tell you what pace per mile / km I'm running at any given time, I can sort of gauge how long I can keep up a pace for races up to 10k. For longer races I'd be less confident (hence my use of pacers on Monday) but I'd sort of remind myself of runs I've done in training with faster people, and tell myself to push a bit harder than that in a race as I'm not talking etc ...

I think I'd probably improve faster if I used my watch. My husband was really watching his pace on Monday and he broke 1.35 and got a good PB, so I know keeping an eye on your watch can be very succesful, but so far I am managing without it (it wasn't a conscious decision - I just seem to focus better if I'm not checking my time). I'll probably need to learn to look at it for the marathon though.

Krusty_Clown

statss wrote: »

On a related topic so, seeing as you are Mr Garmin :pac:, if sticking rigidly to pace can be harmful as you say, how reliable do you think the Garmin HR data is mid race? I set an alert during the half on Monday to let me know if I hit over 90%ish of Hrmax, it beeped a few times in the first mile or two, I had started with the 1:30 pacers but felt they were going too fast so I dropped off them. Worked well for me, so I may adopt the strategy again. Be interested in your views, I'm wondering does increased race day adrenaline play havoc with usual HR zones.

In my experience, Garmin HR data is rarely accurate for the first mile or two, (showing spikes of nearly impossible proportions) until the sensors are suitably lubricated), that basing your race strategy on the available data (certainly in the early parts of your race) is a risky proposition. Later in the race the HR data will be less erroneous, but if you limit yourself based on your HR, rather than how you feel, you may be under-selling yourself (or pushing too hard). Like everything else, use it as an additional piece of information (or ignore it completely!). You would certainly expect your HR to be higher on race day than a typical training run at the same pace, due to adrenaline and race conditions.

HelenAnne

Ososlo wrote: »

do you mean without a gps watch even? It amazes me how people do that. Guess it takes years of experience.

A few people have told me a story about a former Olympic marathoner winning a race somewhere in the countryside, and announcing - as he collected his prize - that the course was short. He apparently knew that based on his own pace over the distance. And he annoyed all the runners who'd been happy with their new pbs! I'd say that kind of certainty comes with years of experience.

Enduro

Ososlo wrote: »

do you mean without a gps watch even? It amazes me how people do that. Guess it takes years of experience.

Absolutely. My very first running race (As opposed to 2-day mountain navigation events, which were my first races per se) was the DCM. I aimed for a sub-3 and paced it out perfectly using no more than mile markers, a watch, a target pace, and most importantly a good idea of what felt right (adjusting as the miles elapsed). That was with little more than a few months of training. So years of experience are not necessarily a requirement, in my own experience (But you do obviously get better with experience as long as you are actively learning as you go).

I've never used a GPS watch for pacing, or a HRM for that matter. IMHO they should both be illegal in races, but that's a different debate

Timmaay

Pacers in middle distance races are very useful, especially 800m where you really don't have time to be checking splits, just sit in and run! Have never ever bothered with one in a distance race, I will always know my rough target splits per km, and run on how I feel after that. Pacers in distance races seem to be only there for the big milestone marks anyways, if say I'm capable of a 2.55 marathon, why only aim for the mildstone of sub3 and stick with the pacer, why not go try get everything out of yourself.

But I suppose thats where the line becomes murky between if you consider yourself an athlete, ie try extract every last bit out of yourself, or just an achiever as such, ie get the "milestone" time of sub whatever . (Ok I'll duck for cover now, probably going to get abuse for that opinion ha)

robinph

Enduro wrote: »

+1000000!

If your goal is to progress as a runner, and even more so a racer, and strive to achive your best possible times/results then being able to self pace is an absolutely vital skill.

If your goal is simply to get to get a specific time for a specific distance then pacers are obviously a very benificial aid.

Not disagreeing with anything you say... but...

Very, very few people on here are racing people in the races that we do. 99% of the time we are only racing the clock, and the people around us in the race are irrelevant as to if they finish ahead of us or not. Of all the races I've done the position has only mattered in less than a handful of them, and most of the time I'd only realise that towards the end when you notice that you've just managed to hang on to the third place by some fluke and there is a bottle of wine waiting for you at the end if you hold on.
I can only think of one race where I went off and from the start actually raced for the second place all the way, unfortunately that organising club is tight with the prizes and you get nothing for second.

Racing the clock is all that the vast majority of us ever do, so learning what pace you are going at and what is appropriate for each distance is a skill that you need to learn. You tend to only properly figure it out though by getting it badly wrong a couple of times first and going off too fast, then you start to learn the point on the scale of pain that you can push up to.

HelenAnne

Timmaay wrote: »

Pacers in middle distance races are very useful, especially 800m where you really don't have time to be checking splits, just sit in and run! Have never ever bothered with one in a distance race, I will always know my rough target splits per km, and run on how I feel after that. Pacers in distance races seem to be only there for the big milestone marks anyways, if say I'm capable of a 2.55 marathon, why only aim for the mildstone of sub3 and stick with the pacer, why not go try get everything out of yourself.

But I suppose thats where the line becomes murky between if you consider yourself an athlete, ie try extract every last bit out of yourself, or just an achiever as such, ie get the "milestone" time of sub whatever . (Ok I'll duck for cover now, probably going to get abuse for that opinion ha)

I suppose it depends on how well you know yourself and your capabilities. I'd try to get every last bit out of myself in a 2 mile club race - it's not long, I know I can finish it, and if I pace it wrong, well, there's always next week.

When / if I do my first marathon, I'll be way less confident that I know how I'll feel in the last 4-6 miles, or how I'll feel having run 20 miles (hopefully) faster than I've ever run that distance before. So I'd be much more afraid of pacing it wrong and ruining my whole race. Maybe if I'd done multiple marathons I wouldn't feel like that. But for me, at this stage, I don't know if I'd be able to tell the difference between going a bit too easy, doing my absolute utmost and overdoing it and failing to finish, so getting a milestone / achievement time would be an amazing result for me. I'd rather (for a first marathon) feel I'd erred on the side of going too easy rather than too hard.

But I'm a hobby runner rather than an athlete, I know elite runners would be racing and focused for the whole 26.2 miles.

robinph

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I wonder how many people who have acted in a pacing capacity would make use of a pacer during a race? Very few I'd imagine.

I'd use pacers if they were there for the time I was aiming for. But I'd use them the same way as I'd use the pace on the Garmin, just as another reference to gauge what I'm doing. When I got the sub 3 in Dublin I didn't run with the pacers as such, but they were always kind of in sight, and when they went past me towards the end that made a huge difference to me being able to persuade the legs to give one last effort and keep going to the line around the corner as by that stage my mind would have been in no fit state to figure out if it was still on or not.

Unlikely to find a pacer now going at a speed I want for a marathon now, but if someone wants to run me round a 35:xx 10km or 1:19:xx half then I'll happily follow you, just as I did with the 59:xx guys in Mallow 10 miler earlier this year.

TFBubendorfer

robinph wrote: »

Very, very few people on here are racing people in the races that we do.

Don't be so sure about that. Things change radically once you become eligible for age group prizes.

That's where the use of pacers definitely become dodgy, if someone can win prizes simply by following a pacer then the "pure spirit" of the sport can be called into question.

Enduro

robinph wrote: »

Not disagreeing with anything you say... but...

Very, very few people on here are racing people in the races that we do. 99% of the time we are only racing the clock, and the people around us in the race are irrelevant as to if they finish ahead of us or not. Of all the races I've done the position has only mattered in less than a handful of them, and most of the time I'd only realise that towards the end when you notice that you've just managed to hang on to the third place by some fluke and there is a bottle of wine waiting for you at the end if you hold on.
I can only think of one race where I went off and from the start actually raced for the second place all the way, unfortunately that organising club is tight with the prizes and you get nothing for second.

Racing the clock is all that the vast majority of us ever do, so learning what pace you are going at and what is appropriate for each distance is a skill that you need to learn. You tend to only properly figure it out though by getting it badly wrong a couple of times first and going off too fast, then you start to learn the point on the scale of pain that you can push up to.

I agree that we're not disagreeing In fact in my own case I tend to race my own most important races (specificlly ultras) against the clock for a large proportion of the race as a means towards getting an optimal result (i.e. I run my own race and ignore the other competitors as a deliberate strategy to try to beat the other competitors). So learning to pace against the clock is what I would consider the most important skill to learn in ultra distance racing (and for the vast majority of people that will apply to marathons too). Every run can be a learning experience to help you fine tune your pacing abilities.

Enduro

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

That's where the use of pacers definitely become dodgy, if someone can win prizes simply by following a pacer then the "pure spirit" of the sport can be called into question.

That's quite close to my reasoning on why HRMs and GPSs should be banned from races!

robinph

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Don't be so sure about that. Things change radically once you become eligible for age group prizes.

That's where the use of pacers definitely become dodgy, if someone can win prizes simply by following a pacer then the "pure spirit" of the sport can be called into question.

You have to be able to recognise who you are actually racing against though, and it's a lot more difficult for the greying/ balding blokes to spot their competition than for women to spot another of the same gender in the race. I am occasionally getting other blokes coming up to me and asking my age at the end of a race and then leaving with a grin on their face, I'll soon be disappointing them though.

If you win a race due to a pacer taking you round in a specific time, then the other guys could have joined in as well and followed the pacer. If it was a prize for any V40 who breaks time Y then it would be wrong to use pacers though.

28064212

Enduro wrote: »

That's quite close to my reasoning on why HRMs and GPSs should be banned from races!

And at least one of watches and mile markers

RayCun

For a pure race - **** times, it's all about who comes first - no-one in the race should know how many laps there are.
Until the bell goes.

robinph

RayCun wrote: »

For a pure race - **** times, it's all about who comes first - no-one in the race should know how many laps there are.
Until the bell goes.

Now that would make for an interesting race. I'd definitely put my money on Mo wining that one.

Enduro

28064212 wrote: »

And at least one of watches and mile markers

Touche!

RayCun

robinph wrote: »

Now that would make for an interesting race. I'd definitely put my money on Mo wining that one.

unless the random number generator for the number of laps was nobbled by Enduro adding '0' after each one

Gavlor

Having missed sub 3 in limerick by 1 minute I can say with certainty that I won't be running with pacers for dcm. The problem I find with pacers is that you run their race and follow their strategy, which may not be suitable to your own training/usual race strategy.

Krusty was bang on earlier that anyone targeting a time should leave a cushion eg 2.55 as opposed to a pacer target of 2.59.45

thewolf_ie

I broke away from the pacers during my last race and I ran my best race to date. I feel two things can happen with pacers 1. you run to fast or 2. you slow down to stick with them both causing you to run outside your natural ability.

ThePiedPiper

Gavlor, I think to run 2:59, you should maybe train for 2:55, and run a negative split, much more successful than racing for a 2:55 and leaving time for losing in closing miles..

Running with pacers is a proven way of achieving a target, but only if its a conservative target for most.. My one and only time running in a pace group was a success, but the target was relatively soft, and only because the pacers were running 10 seconds a mile faster than goal pace did it actually suit me so well.. Made for strange strategy when one of the pacers only got as far as halfway!

Sacksian

As an aside, John Coghlan had John Travers pacing him for the first mile in the 3k at the Graded meet in Santry tonight and, earlier, John Travers had a pacer (or two) for his 800m.

Gavlor

RunForestRun wrote: »

Gavlor, I think to run 2:59, you should maybe train for 2:55, and run a negative split, much more successful than racing for a 2:55 and leaving time for losing in closing miles..

Running with pacers is a proven way of achieving a target, but only if its a conservative target for most.. My one and only time running in a pace group was a success, but the target was relatively soft, and only because the pacers were running 10 seconds a mile faster than goal pace did it actually suit me so well.. Made for strange strategy when one of the pacers only got as far as halfway!

That's the plan.... Don't suppose you fancy pacing me

Timmaay

Sacksian wrote: »

As an aside, John Coghlan had John Travers pacing him for the first mile in the 3k at the Graded meet in Santry tonight and, earlier, John Travers had a pacer (or two) for his 800m.

Nay one of the chaps who paced Travers dropped out anyways. It was a ballsy run by Travers tho, great to watch!

opus

Earlier this year, I ran a few city marathons (Belfast & Leipzig) as long training runs for Comrades so to keep life simple I ran with a pace group until close to the end when I pushed on a bit. Found it very helpful as I didn't have to worry about watching my pace and instead was able to essentially play tourist as we travelled around the city.

Have a marathon in Germany coming up in Oct but will probably do my own thing there.

career_move

Pacers are brilliant. End of. Like everything there are good pacers and there are great pacers. And great pacers (you know who you are ) are a godsend. Especially in marathons

Obviously you have to take responsibility for your own race though because at the end of the day the buck stops with you.

Outside

The only time I used a pacer was for the Dublin marathon. I started with them and kept to their pace for the first couple of miles, primarily to keep me from going out too fast.

At the end of the race I felt kind of "dirty" for using such an aid. Part of the "race" and part of achieving my goal time was to do it unaided and by using the pacing skill's I'd learned from training. It's all part of the experience and taking away the "keeping your own pace right" aspect would take one huge aspect of the race away.

It depends on your goal though, if like Opus its a training run at a certain pace then pacers are very useful and you can happily latch on and look around at the sights and scenery. There's also a nice social aspect to running in a group with the pacers, sharing the pain etc. I'm never too concerned about being social though when it comes to try and achieve a goal time.

But I know if I was going for a goal time again, I'd like to do it myself. All depends on what your own personal goals are of course.