An Ocras Mór

tiempo

Can someone please tell me the difference between An Ocras Mór and An t'Ocras Mór?

HansHolzel

"an t-ocras" ('the hunger', 'the starvation') is a first declension noun (therefore masculine), in the nominative case.

tiempo

Thanks HansHolzel, but lamentably I know little about Irish grammar, so your answer throws no light on my ignorance. Should I write "The effect of An Ocras Mór..." Or should it be An t'Ocras Mór?

HansHolzel

The effect of An t-Ocras Mór

tiempo

Go raibh mile maith agat

pog it

Just in case it helps, if you are referring to the Great Hunger or the Irish Famine, the proper term is 'An Drochshaol'. The other 'An tOcras Mór' is just a word for word translation and isn't correct here.

I learned this myself when I was going through 'Ceart nó Mícheart' by Seán Ó Ruadháin which goes through a lot of common errors like this one! It's an absolute gem of a book.

HansHolzel

An t-Ocras Mór is a fair - though indeed literal - translation of the English phrase 'the great hunger', while An Gorta Mór is a standard way of saying 'The Great Famine'.

An Gorta Mór is just as acceptable as An Drochshaol and probably more commonly used.

tiempo

Go raibh maith agaibh pog it agus HansHolzel for your generous help

pog it

HansHolzel wrote: »

An Gorta Mór is just as acceptable as An Drochshaol and probably more commonly used.

It emphatically isn't.

Can you give me some evidence please of where native speakers at the time referred to is as 'an tOcras mór'?

You just can't translate word for word at will with a clear conscience.

Insect Overlord

pog it wrote: »

It emphatically isn't.

Can you give me some evidence please of where native speakers at the time referred to is as 'an tOcras mór'?

What about "an Gorta Mór"?

pog it

tiempo wrote: »

Go raibh maith agaibh pog it agus HansHolzel for your generous help

Tiempo, I forgot to mention that there is another mistake above.

It should be 'An tOcras Mór' (I am only using it for sake of example) if first letter is a vowel and a capital letter (and a masculine noun).

But if the letter is not capitalised, then it is 'an t-ocras' and the hyphen is used to separate the t-prefix from the noun.

The t- prefix isn't applied to feminine nouns starting with a vowel so be sure and check the gender of the noun. 'Ocras' is masculine.

pog it

Insect Overlord wrote: »

What about "an Gorta Mór"?

Seán Ó Ruadháin mentions that translation in the book Insect Overlord and says he is fed up seeing it used to refer to the Famine and that 'An Drochshaol' is the correct translation.

'The Great Hunger' is just an English language way to describe it so would be waste of time to translate that word for word.

I'm going with Ó Ruadháin anyway! He was a serious expert in the language and humble too going by his personality that pours through it.

Insect Overlord

pog it wrote: »

I'm going with Ó Ruadháin anyway! He was a serious expert in the language and humble too going by his personality that pours through it.

Cheers. I'll have to add that book to my collection!

tiempo

An Drochshaol it has to be so. Thanks everyone.

HansHolzel

pog it wrote: »

It emphatically isn't.

Can you give me some evidence please of where native speakers at the time referred to is as 'an tOcras mór'?

You just can't translate word for word at will with a clear conscience.

"An Gorta Mór" was what I wrote. Please read stuff properly before commenting.

HansHolzel

From focal.ie.... Drochshaol crops up at the very end of the list

famine graveyard
Stair · History
reilig (bain2) ón nGorta Mór

famine road
Seandálaíocht · Archaeology
bóthar (fir1) gorta

National Famine Commemoration Committee
Stair · History
Coiste (fir4) Cuimhneacháin Náisiúnta an Ghorta Mhóir

National Famine Monument
Ealaín · Art
Séadchomhartha (fir4) Náisiúnta an Ghorta Mhóir

replica famine-ship project
Turasóireacht · Tourism; Stair · History
tionscadal (fir1) mhacasamhail na loinge ón nGorta Mór

the Great Famine
Stair › Stair na hÉireann · History › Irish History
an Gorta (fir4) Mór
an Drochshaol (fir1)

pog it

Focal.ie are an authority for new terminology and are great for getting translations of things like 'The Irish Medical Council' or 'Chairman of the committee' and so on but they are not, and nor do they claim to be, a definitive authority on authentic native speaker Irish translations for absolutely everything.

And how could they be? It's a relatively new database, not all its editors and contributors are native speakers, and I doubt they have an exhaustive supply of qualified and able researchers.

You just cannot get a better translation for anything than the original native speaker version and Seán Ó Ruadháin was a recognised expert.

pog it

HansHolzel wrote: »

"An Gorta Mór" was what I wrote. Please read stuff properly before commenting.

I didn't. I read all of them and not only corrected the grammatical error in all of your posts where you have typed 'An t-Ocras Mór' (incorrectly using the hyphen with the capital letter as I have explained) and since you hadn't brought it up I mentioned to tiempo who started the thread that An Drochshaol is the correct translation.

Both An gorta mór and the other one are just word for word translations and are just poor translations but use whatever you like. I am free to highlight the native speaker version if I want to.

HansHolzel

You quoted a line of mine that mentioned An Gorta Mór and then criticized me for the ocras mór thing. Another poster pointed that out too.

As for the hyphen issue, that is just pedantry.

If Irish has to rely on the endangered species of native speakers as gospel, no wonder it's in a sorry state. Even a lot of them make minor grammatical mistakes too e.g. in when to séimhiú and when not to séimhiú or in omitting the dreaded Tuiseal Ginideach after the ainm briathartha (verbal noun).

Peig has a lot to answer for. Cos léi san uaigh agus cos eile ar a bruach...

HansHolzel

Niall Tóibín tells it this way:

Irish scholar in Gaeltacht restaurant: Waiter, there's a fly in my soup.

Waiter: Oh, an cuileog, eh.

Scholar: An chuileog! It's feminine.

Waiter: Jaysus, God bless your eyesight!

pog it

HansHolzel wrote: »

You quoted a line of mine that mentioned An Gorta Mór and then criticized me for the ocras mór thing. Another poster pointed that out too.

No, they didn't. They asked if An Gorta Mór was accepted version. Nothing to do with your post.

pog it

HansHolzel wrote: »

Niall Tóibín tells it this way:

Irish scholar in Gaeltacht restaurant: Waiter, there's a fly in my soup.

Waiter: Oh, an cuileog, eh.

Scholar: An chuileog! It's feminine.

Waiter: Jaysus, God bless your eyesight!

What has that got to do with anything?

Someone started a thread here specifically to get the correct way to write something, and you gave an incorrect answer.

pog it

HansHolzel wrote: »

You quoted a line of mine that mentioned An Gorta Mór and then criticized me for the ocras mór thing. Another poster pointed that out too.

As for the hyphen issue, that is just pedantry.

If Irish has to rely on the endangered species of native speakers as gospel, no wonder it's in a sorry state. Even a lot of them make minor grammatical mistakes too e.g. in when to séimhiú and when not to séimhiú or in omitting the dreaded Tuiseal Ginideach after the ainm briathartha (verbal noun).

Peig has a lot to answer for. Cos léi san uaigh agus cos eile ar a bruach...

The Irish language is in a bad state because Irish people just can't be bothered and/or don't care!
What's new in that?

Further, Peig has nothing to do with it. Pathetic primary school teachers are the problem.

Insect Overlord

HansHolzel wrote: »

You quoted a line of mine that mentioned An Gorta Mór and then criticized me for the ocras mór thing. Another poster pointed that out too.

pog it wrote: »

No, they didn't. They asked if An Gorta Mór was accepted version. Nothing to do with your post.

Have a read of HansHolzel's post again. They did indeed ask about "An Gorta Mór" and you did indeed respond with criticism of "an tOcras Mór".

pog it wrote: »

HansHolzel wrote: »

An Gorta Mór is just as acceptable as An Drochshaol and probably more commonly used.

It emphatically isn't.

Can you give me some evidence please of where native speakers at the time referred to is as 'an tOcras mór'?

In any case, both "an Drochshaol" and "an Gorta Mór" are given equal weight on www.potafocal.com as well as www.focal.ie. At this stage I reckon they'd both be acceptable in every day use, with the former being more traditionally authentic.

I agree that "an tOcras Mór" should be avoided, as it's just a literal translation of Kavanagh's "great hunger".

pog it

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Have a read of HansHolzel's post again. They did indeed ask about "An Gorta Mór" and you did indeed respond with criticism of "an tOcras Mór".

My first reply was not directed at anybody other than the OP who asked about the term and I guessed they were looking for a translation of the Great Famine and just advised them about the correct term, to be helpful.

HansHolzel came in then defending an tOcras Mór as a literal translation of a great hunger, and then saying An Gorta Mór was standard for the Famine.

Unfortunately I had to correct this again.

Potafocal just gathers up instances of usages of terms from a range of sources. So if people are using 'An Gorta Mór'- as they are like to due to learning that in school, usually - then there will be lots of cases of it on Potafocal's website.

pog it

And here is where I learned from a poster here back in 2009 that there isn't a hyphen between prefix and vowel where the vowel is a capital letter.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=62095456

Hans, you might notice I didn't snap back about 'pedantry'. I appreciated the info and kept learning.

Insect Overlord

Foclóir Uí Dhónaill seems to back that up, actually. An Drochshaol (with a capital D) is used for the [Great Irish] Famine, whereas gorta is used for famines in general.

The joys of multiple sources!

Going by the OP's last post, it looks like your advice was taken anyway.

HansHolzel

pog it wrote: »

HansHolzel came in then defending an tOcras Mór as a literal translation of a great hunger...

Unfortunately I had to correct this again.

How on earth do you make out I was "defending" a literal translation?

You've already been caught out in your misrepresentations by a couple of other posters so if I were you I'd stop digging.

pog it

HansHolzel wrote: »

How on earth do you make out I was "defending" a literal translation?

You've already been caught out in your misrepresentations by a couple of other posters so if I were you I'd stop digging.

Facts remain what they are.

@InsectLord: Yes, gorta can mean famine, but when the 'mór' is added, it implies the Great Irish Famine and An Drochshaol is the translation for it.
I got my info from the Seán Ó Ruadháin book and he was referring to how the translation gets mangled.

P. Breathnach

This argument is tiresome. There is no rule that only one term may be used to describe the Great Famine. One of the joys of language is that one has choices in how to express things.

pog it

P. Breathnach wrote: »

This argument is tiresome. There is no rule that only one term may be used to describe the Great Famine. One of the joys of language is that one has choices in how to express things.

Sadly there is a native speaker way to say things, and the other way. And then again not all native speakers are at the same standard either but Seán Ó Ruadháin was.
Why would anyone want to stubbornly cling to An Gorta Mór? When you know the difference it really sounds terrible.

I've made my point, now I'm off.