Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Tension between Britain and Spain reaches new high

Options
13»

Comments

  • Options
    #62
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    WakeUp wrote: »
    The British will not hand back control of Gibraltar anytime soon to the Spanish. It isnt just them who view its location as strategically important so do the Americans and NATO. The most important aspect of the military base for the British is its ability to support their nuclear submarine fleet. It also gives them direct access to the eastern Atlantic. In theory controling the straight of Gibraltar gives the British the ability to exercise control of everything that enters and leaves the Mediterranen. The US/NATO view the straight of Gibraltar as one of five choke points, somewhere that a numerically defending inferior force can prevent a much larger force bringing their superior numbers to bear. The base and Gibraltar maybe small but it remains extremely important to the British and the US and I cant see it being returned to the Spanish anytime soon. Spain will not want to start a war the tensions will receed eventually and the status quo will remain the same I would think.

    You're aware that Spain are a NATO member, and that the US have military bases there (Spain) already? So what's the strategic benefit in a different NATO member claiming the place?


  • Options
    #63
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    alastair wrote: »
    You're aware that Spain are a NATO member, and that the US have military bases there (Spain) already? So what's the strategic benefit in a different NATO member claiming the place?

    It isnt a case of what Spain stands to gain as a NATO member but more a case of what Britain stands to lose and to some extent the US aswell. The Spanish have always had designs about direct control of the straight. When Spain was negotiating to join the integrated military structure of NATO they put forward as part of their application this line of thought ( direct control ) which was rejected outright and not included in the NATO command located in Spain.

    Spain affirmed conditional membership of NATO passed by referendum in 1986. As per the terms affirmed among others was that a) no nuclear weapons would be stationed on Spanish territory and b) efforts would be made to reduce the role of the US military on Spanish soil. Britains nuclear submarine fleet is not only important to NATO but also a crucial part of their national defence/ deterrent policy which makes Gibraltar strategically important to them. The docking of nuclear submarines containing nuclear weapons particularly irks the Spanish. Which is why the British will not hand control over to them anytime soon.


  • Options
    #64
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    WakeUp wrote: »
    It isnt a case of what Spain stands to gain as a NATO member but more a case of what Britain stands to lose and to some extent the US aswell. The Spanish have always had designs about direct control of the straight. When Spain was negotiating to join the integrated military structure of NATO they put forward as part of their application this line of thought ( direct control ) which was rejected outright and not included in the NATO command located in Spain.

    Spain affirmed conditional membership of NATO passed by referendum in 1986. As per the terms affirmed among others was that a) no nuclear weapons would be stationed on Spanish territory and b) efforts would be made to reduce the role of the US military on Spanish soil. Britains nuclear submarine fleet is not only important to NATO but also a crucial part of their national defence/ deterrent policy which makes Gibraltar strategically important to them. The docking of nuclear submarines containing nuclear weapons particularly irks the Spanish. Which is why the British will not hand control over to them anytime soon.

    I'd be very surprised if a nuclear armed (Vanguard class) submarine docked in Gibraltar. Nuclear powered yes, but not armed.


  • Options
    #65
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Is that why the UK stops and searches every car heading up the M1 and charges €50 to get off the ferry in holyhead?

    No need to be either misleading or childish Fred.
    Firstly the UK and Ireland have already an agreement in place known as the "Common Travel Area".
    Secondly Spain is not charging anyone anything at the mo.
    Spain has a duty to protect its economy against smuggling, it is fully entitled to stop vehicles and persons from the non-schengen area to ensure that they are entitled to enter Spain and that they are not smuggling.


  • Options
    #66
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »
    No need to be either misleading or childish Fred.
    Firstly the UK and Ireland have already an agreement in place known as the "Common Travel Area".
    Secondly Spain is not charging anyone anything at the mo.
    Spain has a duty to protect its economy against smuggling, it is fully entitled to stop vehicles and persons from the non-schengen area to ensure that they are entitled to enter Spain and that they are not smuggling.

    EU citizens crossing from non schengen to schengen countries should be subject to a minimum check. What is currently going on is ridiculous. It is affecting the residents of Gibraltar's right to free movement.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #67
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    EU citizens crossing from non schengen to schengen countries should be subject to a minimum check. What is currently going on is ridiculous. It is affecting the residents of Gibraltar's right to free movement.

    I've experienced the crossing from Gibraltar to Spain first hand and can say from that experience that it is just more about being an inconvenience than searching cars. We had no problem going into Gibraltar which we had to drive over the airport runway to get in. But on the way back out we faced about an hour wait in the car because they had only one border guard to check the dozens of vehicles that were waiting to pass.

    This was over 10 years ago so can't say if its still the same but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.


  • Options
    #68
    Jonny7
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »
    Firstly the UK and Ireland have already an agreement in place known as the "Common Travel Area".
    Secondly Spain is not charging anyone anything at the mo.
    Spain has a duty to protect its economy against smuggling, it is fully entitled to stop vehicles and persons from the non-schengen area to ensure that they are entitled to enter Spain and that they are not smuggling.

    That's not the issue. It's the deliberate political intervention to increase to searches to a ridiculous level as a punitive measure.


  • Options
    #69
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    WakeUp wrote: »
    It isnt a case of what Spain stands to gain as a NATO member but more a case of what Britain stands to lose and to some extent the US aswell. The Spanish have always had designs about direct control of the straight. When Spain was negotiating to join the integrated military structure of NATO they put forward as part of their application this line of thought ( direct control ) which was rejected outright and not included in the NATO command located in Spain.

    Spain affirmed conditional membership of NATO passed by referendum in 1986. As per the terms affirmed among others was that a) no nuclear weapons would be stationed on Spanish territory and b) efforts would be made to reduce the role of the US military on Spanish soil. Britains nuclear submarine fleet is not only important to NATO but also a crucial part of their national defence/ deterrent policy which makes Gibraltar strategically important to them. The docking of nuclear submarines containing nuclear weapons particularly irks the Spanish. Which is why the British will not hand control over to them anytime soon.

    During the Libyan conflict, Spain actively lobbied for the US to base their (nuclear powered) submarines and carrier in the Spanish/US base at Rota, rather than Gibraltar - arguing that the base at Rota was better suited and more secure than Gibraltar. So maybe they're not that irked at government level?


  • Options
    #70
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    As usual, the daily mash has the full story http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/cameron-offers-military-aid-to-spain-2013081478625


  • Options
    #71
    Jonny7
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    As usual, the daily mash has the full story http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/cameron-offers-military-aid-to-spain-2013081478625

    "An aircraft carrier full of TV journalists in flak jackets has been put on standby, with emergency supplies of Union Jack bunting being flown in from China.

    Office worker Donna Sheridan said: “Say what you like about Mrs T, the Falklands were great for national pride and gritty post-watershed TV drama.    "

    lol


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #72
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    EU citizens crossing from non schengen to schengen countries should be subject to a minimum check. What is currently going on is ridiculous. It is affecting the residents of Gibraltar's right to free movement.

    Tell that to the UK Border Force!
    They put the Spaniards in the H'penny place.
    At least the Spaniards are not demanding the right to set up border controls inside Gibralter, like the UK does in France.


  • Options
    #73
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »
    Tell that to the UK Border Force!
    They put the Spaniards in the H'penny place.
    At least the Spaniards are not demanding the right to set up border controls inside Gibralter, like the UK does in France.

    The bastards, I bet they'd never let the French set up border controls in the UK.

    Well, other than those agreed under the Sangatte Protocol

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juxtaposed_controls


  • Options
    #74
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Gibraltar hasn't been of any military significance since WWII. Air power reigns supreme these days, not naval might. Britain (IMO) has no strategic interest in the Rock any more. They have strategic interest in Cyprus, where they really could be accused of having overstayed their welcome by a few decades (no local population wants them on the island) but Gibraltar is different. They (the UK government) would probably be happier shot of the place, but the residents are British and that changes everything.

    How many of those contributing here have been to Gibraltar and the Spanish territory nearby? I have and it helps to understand why most Gibraltarians feel no real connection to Spain and do not wish under any circumstances to be part of Spain.


  • Options
    #75
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    murphaph wrote: »
    How many of those contributing here have been to Gibraltar and the Spanish territory nearby? I have and it helps to understand why most Gibraltarians feel no real connection to Spain and do not wish under any circumstances to be part of Spain.

    La Linea might be a kip, but Gib isn't a whole lot better tbh, and it's a nonsense to claim that Gibraltarians feel no connection to Spain - they've far greater connections to Spain than the UK. The rejection of shared sovereignty has nothing to do with a lack of connection with all things Spanish, and rather more to do with the risk of killing the particular set of economic/financial circumstances that apply in Gib.


  • Options
    #76
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    murphaph wrote: »
    How many of those contributing here have been to Gibraltar and the Spanish territory nearby? I have and it helps to understand why most Gibraltarians feel no real connection to Spain and do not wish under any circumstances to be part of Spain.

    As a matter of interest, what did you make of Gibraltar as a holiday destination?
    I have always wondered about facilities, beaches, pubs, shops, historic buildings, etc . . .


  • Options
    #77
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    LordSutch wrote: »
    As a matter of interest, what did you make of Gibraltar as a holiday destination?
    I have always wondered about facilities, beaches, pubs, shops, historic buildings, etc . . .

    It's not the best, if you're looking for a holiday destination - better options in 'proper' Spain. It is an interesting place to visit short-term all the same - but no more so than say, Ceuta - which has less to offer than Tetouan.


  • Options
    #78
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    alastair wrote: »
    La Linea might be a kip, but Gib isn't a whole lot better tbh, and it's a nonsense to claim that Gibraltarians feel no connection to Spain - they've far greater connections to Spain than the UK. The rejection of shared sovereignty has nothing to do with a lack of connection with all things Spanish, and rather more to do with the risk of killing the particular set of economic/financial circumstances that apply in Gib.
    Indeed, Gibraltar is not some swanky English speaking version of Monaco. It is run down in parts (but La Linea is much worse-Gibraltar is faded glory, La Linea is just a dump).

    Why should the Gibraltarians agree to anything that might harm them economically (and make Gibraltar into another La Linea)? Ireland fiercely defends its tax rates etc. and I feel Gibraltar has every right to do the best it can for itself in a similar vein.


  • Options
    #79
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    alastair wrote: »
    It's not the best, if you're looking for a holiday destination - better options in 'proper' Spain. It is an interesting place to visit short-term all the same - but no more so than say, Ceuta - which has less to offer than Tetouan.
    Yeah, I only made a day trip to Gib from Spain. I wouldn't go to Gibraltar for 2 weeks. The Rock is very interesting inside and the town is nice to stroll around for a few hours, then you've had your fill and can go back to Spain.


  • Options
    #80
    RobitTV
    Registered Users Posts: 4,517 ✭✭✭RobitTV


    Breaking Via Sky News

    Cameron has attempted to de-escalate the situation and has held another phone conversation with Rajoy. Amongst the PMs call for de-escalation is the plan to organise ad-hoc conversations involving the Gibraltar Government. Rajoy has refused and has stated border controls will be maintained.

    In view of Rajoy's response the UK is now "actively considering" legal action and confirms it is gathering evidence for a legal case against Spain. And also the possibility of sanctions.

    Spain is currently threatening Gibraltar with environmental fines and clamp down on Gibraltar's refuelling industry and a Border tax of 50 euro.

    Tention's between Britain and Spain have reached boiling point today with both sides not backing down and Spain is looking to Argentina as a close ally in the dispute.


  • Options
    #81
    RobitTV
    Registered Users Posts: 4,517 ✭✭✭RobitTV


    Latest:

    “We are confident that in the end that we will have Gibraltar as part of Spain,” the Spanish diplomat said. -

    His comments drew a sharp response from Tory MP John Baron, who sits on the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee.

    “I think this is wishful thinking,” Mr Baron said. “This smacks of a country desperate to divert attention away from its domestic political and economic woes.”

    “The people of Gibraltar have spoken in a referendum and our position is absolutely clear that Gibraltar will remain British.”
    UK likely to win at EU court the Gibraltar border ‘excessive checks’ case

    Britain is likely to win a case against Spain over the imposition of excessive border queues and could get an interim order to ease the controls from the European Court of Justice said Professor Damian Chalmers an expert in EU law at LSE and who is a Jean Monnet Chair and was editor of the European Law Review and EU Jurist.

    http://en.mercopress.com/2013/08/15/uk-likely-to-win-at-eu-court-the-gibraltar-border-excessive-checks-case
    Falklands/Gibraltar in Garcia Margallo’s agenda when he visits Argentina and meets Timerman

    Spain’s Foreign affairs ministry Director General Ignacio Ibañez confirmed that Spain’s Foreign Minister José Manuel García-Margallo, would raise Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands with his Argentine counterpart, Hector Timerman, during a visit to Buenos Aires in early September.

    http://en.mercopress.com/2013/08/15/malvinas-gibraltar-in-garcia-margallo-s-agenda-when-he-visits-argentina-and-meets-timerman


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #82
    RobitTV
    Registered Users Posts: 4,517 ✭✭✭RobitTV


    Breaking also tonight -

    Britain has urged the EU to send a team to investigate border checks "Urgently"

    Britain has asked the EU to “urgently” send a team to Gibraltar “to gather evidence” on extra border checks at the centre of a growing row with Spain. PM David Cameron spoke to EU Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso to raise “serious concerns” that Spain's actions are “politically motivated”.

    http://en.mercopress.com/2013/08/16/uk-asks-eu-to-urgently-send-a-team-to-gather-evidence-on-gibraltar-spain-borders-row


  • Options
    #83
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Has to be the case that this will all pass over in the coming weeks, and by this time next year time this will all be forgotten (hopefully) . . .

    It can't really escallate, unless of course Cameron does something silly like expelling the Spanish ambassador, or putting extra tax on Spanish wine?

    Storm in a tea cup me thinks.


  • Options
    #84
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    The whole thing is about deflecting political heat from the PP in Spain and it's not working.

    The Spanish are seeing right through it and mostly seem to think it's a bit ridiculous.

    If the PP thinks it can deflect media and public criticism of various corruption scandals and the economic mess they've plonked the country in by pretending to be all super nationalistic they've another thing coming!

    Spanish media outlets and most Spanish people aren't suckers for a bit of crude spin and are being quite cynical about this stuff.

    They want urgent action on the economy not starting a ridiculous fight with the UK.

    Reading the Spanish media and talking Spanish people they just mostly think it's absolute nonsense.


  • Options
    #85
    Jonny7
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    The pantomime continues..

    (apologies for use of daily rag link)
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396584/A-modern-day-Spanish-Armada-Flotilla-fishermen-stand-Royal-Navy-police-boats-Gibraltar.html


  • Options
    #86
    losthorizon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,565 ✭✭✭losthorizon


    Just arrived back from Holiday and saw this story. Spent the last three days (well four) in Gibraltar. There are no queues or checks as far as I could see. The only time I was asked for a passport was actually going in By Gibraltar police).


    Its a very friendly place though.


  • Options
    #87
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    This story doesn't even seem to be making the Spanish news very much.

    From what I could see on TVE and Canal 24 Horas it was sort of an "and finally .. "

    Live Spanish news channel Canal 24H : http://www.rtve.es/noticias/directo/canal-24h/


Advertisement