Will I won't I

Motor-Ed

I'm looking for some feedback on the pros and especially cons of buying a camper.
I guess the good weather is enticing me.
But I'm looking on Done deal and there's some junk out there and that's without viewing them.
Really would like to hear the horror stories especially if you bought one and took a trip and decided it wasn't for you.
Went to look about doing a 3 day hire to suck it and see but the guy wants a deposit of €1500 as a hold against any damage, got stung there before.
So lets be hearing ya

JonMac

I bought a used one from a dealer with a warranty. We have zero skills to tell a lemon from a good one and no skills to fix problems.

Martin_D

Research, research, research - go see all types within your budget - private and dealers. This forum has plenty of info, comment and advice - you have to do some leg work.

runner2011

If you don't know what you are looking for in terms of good ones or bad ones go to a dealer and get a warranty. We hadn't a clue what we were after and didn't know one end from the other when we bought our first one. Best money we ever spent and cant imagine not having one now. If you go to a good dealer and negotiate a good price and warranty you wouldn't loose out much if you decide it's not for you in a few months. As Martin_D says do your research and this forum has lots of advice. Think about why you want one and when you will be able to use it .. the good weather wont last for ever you have to think about the wet and cold days and if your up to using it then also.

Motor-Ed

runner2011 wrote: »

If you don't know what you are looking for in terms of good ones or bad ones go to a dealer and get a warranty. We hadn't a clue what we were after and didn't know one end from the other when we bought our first one. Best money we ever spent and cant imagine not having one now. If you go to a good dealer and negotiate a good price and warranty you wouldn't loose out much if you decide it's not for you in a few months. As Martin_D says do your research and this forum has lots of advice. Think about why you want one and when you will be able to use it .. the good weather wont last for ever you have to think about the wet and cold days and if your up to using it then also.

Thanks for that
I know the basics of buying something and see this process as part of any research.
Regarding the units themselves the reason for the post is to tap into information such as like your saying you love it. For example how often do you use it, is the layout with kitchen and toilet in back the best, Peugeot ,Ford or Fiat base. What are the absolute issues to avoid, van conversions look less impressive.

Who better to ask than users, if I want a new car I'll ask people who are driving them!

runner2011

Ours is a coachbuilt, 6 Berth , Ducato based, 2010 model so fairly new .. i have no experience of conversions so cant comment on them but have seen plenty on sites and they range from "O dear" to "OMG" , guess it depends on the € and time you put into them. We have two young kids so having a permanent bed down the back and over Cab is essential .. don't want to be messing about setting up beds if the kids need a rest or aren't feeling too well. Had a fiat based one previously to this one and the engines are solid but expect Fiat Build quality on fixtures and electrics . As motorhomes can lie up for a few months of the year check for things you would if you are buying a car subject to the same..check Axels (threads on here about non creasing etc ) ..A Bad Battery will break your heart so check that and if in doubt budget for a new one, at least you then know its good. i would be more focused on the quality and condition of the living space , check for signs of Damp and leaks.. they can be a killer and a damp smell will be near impossible to get rid of. Some models can have parts that are unique to them in the living space and sometimes hard to get (Locks, Hinges, lights, covers etc) if you see a unit you like check online for the availability of parts , more sites that list general parts for them the better the chance IMO. As for the living area set up .. ours has a large rear Garage so we can fit the bikes for 4 inside the unit plus lots of other gear , dinning area in middle with the kitchen and rear fixed bed.. if we hadn't the kids we would probably forgo the fixed bed for a larger seating area. We fitted a solar panel which keeps the batteries topped up and in this weather we don't need electric on sites and thats using a TV and a dome Sat unit.. in Winter it will just keep your battery on trickle charge.

We use it as often as possible and would be away every weekend , when we can and weeks in the summer (March to Nov)

runner2011

Ohh... check the Gas boiler and Heater.. you need a heater in this country . Gas needs to be serviced every year so look for certs , they might not have them but ask for the unit to be fully serviced before you buy and a the Gas serviced by an authorised engineer.

Motor-Ed

runner2011 wrote: »

Ohh... check the Gas boiler and Heater.. you need a heater in this country . Gas needs to be serviced every year so look for certs , they might not have them but ask for the unit to be fully serviced before you buy and a the Gas serviced by an authorised engineer.

Great that's more like it!
Thanks

Martin_D

We paid a visit to a large dealer - it was Anchorpoint Motorhomes - when we were looking at buying. They had a full range of Used Models - A Class, Luton, Low Profile; 3 berth to ones suitable for families. They gave us great time and explained about the pros and cons of each type. Really helpful and no obligation (we eventually bought privately an A Class like one we saw there). Got it looked over mechanically before purchase, of course.
As it is for 2 of us the fixed bed we have is ideal - no messing putting up beds every day. Solar panel essential really; Gas is German type set up but no problem getting gas in Ireland.
LHD if going abroad is better and is not a problem at home - in fact it might be a positive as you can keep in on left side without any problems. If doing most of your driving at home yes RHD but would not make it deal breaker. Easy to adapt to LHD.
I bought a few motorhome magazines to get a better sense of them and they have sections on sales. MMM and Practical Motorhomes. There is a forum attached to MMM which like this forum is very useful.

coolvale

we are in the process of buying our 3rd camper.the present 1 we have for 5yrs.
its a great way for touring.we go to scotland every year for 2 weeks.
we have been to places we would not get to without the camper.
look at plenty of campers as there are so many different types & layouts.
get 1 to suit you. look at dealers websites in ireland & the uk to see the different types.
when you go to buy try and bring someone preferable a mechanic to check it out & dont be afraid to ask plenty of questions.
look at thompsonleisure website they are in n.ireland.they will pay the vrt for you & put on the irish plates.
they will give you the price in euro & you can pay them in euro.
good luck.
tony

coolvale

any update.did you purchase yet ?
tony

Motor-Ed

coolvale wrote: »

any update.did you purchase yet ?
tony

No Tony
still a way to go before that happens
probably wrong time of year to buy in any case
if it still looks good when its cold and wet?

whats your view on shared ownership?
could it work or just too much possibility of hassle?

coolvale

motor-ed
sent you a p.m.
tony

Aidan_M_M

Motor-Ed wrote: »

No Tony
still a way to go before that happens
probably wrong time of year to buy in any case
if it still looks good when its cold and wet?

whats your view on shared ownership?
could it work or just too much possibility of hassle?

Speaking from a sales side, in 15 years I don't recsll a single successful shared ownership.

Motor-Ed

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

Speaking from a sales side, in 15 years I don't recsll a single successful shared ownership.

Yes I think I agree
Probably try renting before anything else
Is it normal for such a big security deposit as
I was asked for (1.5k)

Aidan_M_M

Not unheard of.

demoreino

Hi Motor-Ed ,
Our security deposit for campervan rental is € 1000 .
This exists to cover the excess on our insurance .
Kevin www.iwmotorhomes.ie

Motor-Ed

demoreino wrote: »

Hi Motor-Ed ,
Our security deposit for campervan rental is € 1000 .
This exists to cover the excess on our insurance .
Kevin www.iwmotorhomes.ie

And how often do you have to enforce it and is it generally sufficient
Per cent wise
Basically how often do renters do damage
Because I think owners could take advantage

demoreino

I can honestly say that only once this year have we had a reason to take any money from the security deposit.
On that occasion it was damage to a rear light and the charge was under € 100 to have a replacement fitted.
I have heard stopries where this deposit has been abused in the past but I can only speak for Ireland West Motorhomes.

KrustyBurger

Ok here's our story. We bought a camper about 3 years ago. I thought I'd done my homework. It was a 6 berth, 2 bunks for the kids, I thought it was ideal. So off we went on our holiday. The first thing I noticed was that there was nowhere for us to sit down inside the camper as a family. That became a real nuisance over the course of the holiday. So I would echo what other posters have said, get the layout right, if I was buying again I would insist on a U-shaped lounge. But that's just my personal preference.

Secondly, you have to be organized! I remember pulling into a site and hooking up to realise that we were out of a few essential food supplies. So off we go, all of us to the shop to stock up.

Engine size: this is really important, my camper was underpowered (1.9) for it's size and you could feel it even going on a gentle incline.

Storage: some campers have a large garage, ours had a small underside compartment.

Hope this helps.

shaysue

Best advice I got before investing in a camper was, try it first! We rented for a week in France and learned a lot, not least that swmbo loved it. Invested in A class 4 berth the following year and absolutely no regrets. Use it at home and extensively on the continent every year. Happy motor homing if you do decide to invest!

Betsy Og

Would you consider a caravan? Why sez you....

1. Cheaper
2. Park up when you get where you are going, have your car for touring and shopping.
3. More living space inside.

The downsides are:

a) slower on motorways (only a major factor on the continent)
b) some people dont like towing (its not that bad, I do bleedin' hate snaking but if its a major factor for someone then a twin axel should sort it)
c) wild camping is more or less ruled out.

I'm always fascinated how some people would jump at having a motorhome but recoil in horror at the thought of a caravan. The experience is not that different in my estimation.

How many people actually wildcamp??, a full-on motorhome is a big beast and not something that can be parked anywhere. If someone is really serious about the go-and-stay-anywhere experience then realistically you should be getting a van conversion and leaving it at that.

just a thought

nailer8

Having recently upgraded from a van conversion to a 6 berth motorhome (Kids!).
I can see @Betsy_Og's point.
Once you go motorhome you are not much better than a caravan. The main problem is stigma in this country and also no wild camping.

Van conversion is just fantastic for bad country roads or nipping off for an overnight trip. You can park/camp just about anywhere.

Layout is everything, make sure you look at lots.
Some sleep 6 but only have 4 seat belts which can be a big problem.
Others Sleep 6 & have 6 seat belts but can only seat 4 around the table (also not ideal).
Do you need a garage with fixed bed or a U-Lounge (more seating but no fixed bed or storage).

se conman

Best advice that I got was get the biggest camper you can, with-in reason, with the fewest number of beds that you need.
This leaves more living space. We have just bought again after being without one for a number of years. I looked at several and most try to cramp too many beds into too small a space. There is no point in being able to sleep 6 in a small van if you all have to stand outside when the cooking is being done or have to take turns sitting down to eat.
Start off by deciding how many beds you really need, it is a big investment so invest for YOUR family, not for others. Decide what type of holiday you are mainly looking for, is the van just for getting to somewhere and sleeping or will you be LIVING in it for a week or two on a site. What is more important, number of beds or living space. When you know roughly what you need, draw out a rough sketch of the layout that you think best suits you, look at several campers and amend the sketch till near perfect then hunt for that camper. It is too much money to invest in something that is NOT right for you.

Motor-Ed

nailer8 wrote: »

Having recently upgraded from a van conversion to a 6 berth motorhome (Kids!).
I can see @Betsy_Og's point.
Once you go motorhome you are not much better than a caravan. The main problem is stigma in this country and also no wild camping.

Van conversion is just fantastic for bad country roads or nipping off for an overnight trip. You can park/camp just about anywhere.

Layout is everything, make sure you look at lots.
Some sleep 6 but only have 4 seat belts which can be a big problem.
Others Sleep 6 & have 6 seat belts but can only seat 4 around the table (also not ideal).
Do you need a garage with fixed bed or a U-Lounge (more seating but no fixed bed or storage).

Thanks those replies are really useful.
I was in Donegal during the week and called into a place in Letterkenny.
Holy God, definitely know where my market isn't.
It was very useful, like the Hymer models where bed folds down over cab, and all the rest is living space.
What's the story with the fixed double bed, is that for convenience sake or comfort? Also storage in off season, would be much easier with their height.

paddyp

Motor-Ed wrote: »

What's the story with the fixed double bed, is that for convenience sake or comfort?

Beds made out of multiple cushions can be uncomportable, noone like taking down the table and fiddleing with cushions in the middle of the night esp. after a few pints or a long journey.

Macy0161

nailer8 wrote: »

Having recently upgraded from a van conversion to a 6 berth motorhome (Kids!).
I can see @Betsy_Og's point.
Once you go motorhome you are not much better than a caravan. The main problem is stigma in this country and also no wild camping.

There's no getting away from the main issue here is the stigma/ prejudice. And I've also heard of Irish caravans having issues getting into some UK and even European sites.

We'll be looking to upgrade in a year or two, and I have to say that going caravan is in the running for us, albeit not topping the list yet (in active consideration). We don't wild camp, and do tend to stay a couple of days on sites (rather than moving on every night), as our children do better having a day or two to settle into a site. Maybe it's that so many towns are just not motorhome friendly (or at least that's my perception) in terms of even day parking, that we're not that inclined to move it once we're on site. Having a car to use would be advantageous at times too. However, towing is worse than driving a motorhome (I've no issue towing, but it is something to consider), and set up on site does seem more involved too. Although given the supposed extra living space in a caravan, tuggers seem obsessed with the full on awning every time! (Betsy - did you ever source a caravan roll out awning? As that would be something we'd miss about a motorhome!)

Regarding made up beds. I genuinely have no complaints about sleeping on our made up rear lounge bed. We have a memory foam mattress topper, but apart from that it's fine. We were away in the hot spell, and we talking about maybe a fixed bed was the answer, but we were also away when the good weather broke, and we wouldn't have been without the rear lounge and diner then tbh - children set up at the table, whilst we were down the back. So as well as motorhome v Caravan, we're still not sure on future layouts as the girls get older. Just to mention, sleeping in an overcab or dropdown isn't for everyone either. They are quite cramped for two adults (especially on the inside), and we put the children up there whilst we sleep in the made up rear lounge bed. If the van doesn't have great stablizers any movement is exaggerated up there. I'd say you'd want to try that out before having to rely on it to be honest.

It's really all swings and roundabouts and what works for you and your family (if applicable).

RiderOnTheStorm

We bought our 6 berth Ducato in Jan and had a few outings so far (been too busy to get away), and I can say there is lots of great advice on this thread, and some that has rung true in hindsight.

Sorry for any repetition , but here is what we have found :
Yes, look around and look some more . We went to many dealers and after we saw a few dozen vans we started to know what we liked the look of and what we didnt. A permanent bed in the rear was a must for us! Didnt like the idea of having to fold out stuff every day. But then again, the type of camping we do is to spend a night in 1 place and move on. The camper is really just a way of sightseeing for us. If you are going to use it to travel to a camp site and stay for days / weeks, then this might be different for you.

When we saw our camper beside many of the others in the dealers, it did look a bit small. Some of the big ones (90k !!) were like apartments! But when we got it out on the road, and saw dozens going to and fro over the months, it seems ours is average size.

I was nervous of getting a left hand drive unit, but after a few mins you really do adapt! I love the LHD now. Its much easier to drive thru a town with parked cars on the left, you just stay over as far as you can and let the right look after itself! Turning at T junctions is a bit harder, and you have to rely on your co-pilot!

For engine size, ours is 2.5 litre . Its not nippy, and you have to watch out for hills. You do slow down and have to go down a gear, no problem there, but traffic can build up behind you. I just pull to the left and let them go when I get to the top (pulling to left is easy in LHD!) Still, we are not in a hurry when we are sight seeing, so its not a big issue.

Lastly, we dont know much about fridges, batteries, chassis etc (but we learn as we go along), so we bought from a dealer so that we have some warranty and can go back and get advice / repairs etc. As a first timer, I would not buy from private seller (unless you have an experienced campervaner / mechanic to check it out with you).

oh .... and when you do buy, and are out and about , make sure you wave at all the other campervans .... they are going thru (or have gone thru) all you are !

Motor-Ed

RiderOnTheStorm wrote: »

We bought our 6 berth Ducato in Jan and had a few outings so far (been too busy to get away), and I can say there is lots of great advice on this thread, and some that has rung true in hindsight.

Sorry for any repetition , but here is what we have found :
Yes, look around and look some more . We went to many dealers and after we saw a few dozen vans we started to know what we liked the look of and what we didnt. A permanent bed in the rear was a must for us! Didnt like the idea of having to fold out stuff every day. But then again, the type of camping we do is to spend a night in 1 place and move on. The camper is really just a way of sightseeing for us. If you are going to use it to travel to a camp site and stay for days / weeks, then this might be different for you.

When we saw our camper beside many of the others in the dealers, it did look a bit small. Some of the big ones (90k !!) were like apartments! But when we got it out on the road, and saw dozens going to and fro over the months, it seems ours is average size.

I was nervous of getting a left hand drive unit, but after a few mins you really do adapt! I love the LHD now. Its much easier to drive thru a town with parked cars on the left, you just stay over as far as you can and let the right look after itself! Turning at T junctions is a bit harder, and you have to rely on your co-pilot!

For engine size, ours is 2.5 litre . Its not nippy, and you have to watch out for hills. You do slow down and have to go down a gear, no problem there, but traffic can build up behind you. I just pull to the left and let them go when I get to the top (pulling to left is easy in LHD!) Still, we are not in a hurry when we are sight seeing, so its not a big issue.

Lastly, we dont know much about fridges, batteries, chassis etc (but we learn as we go along), so we bought from a dealer so that we have some warranty and can go back and get advice / repairs etc. As a first timer, I would not buy from private seller (unless you have an experienced campervaner / mechanic to check it out with you).

oh .... and when you do buy, and are out and about , make sure you wave at all the other campervans .... they are going thru (or have gone thru) all you are !

Yes it took a while to get going but the content coming now is really useful.
Regarding the bed situation, the Hymer we looked at the bed folded way down nearly to steering wheel, I wouldn't be keen on the Luton type at all.
My budget and view is saying initially buy something olded but making sure the chassis and mechanical ends are sound. My thinking is the inside could be revamped to suit ourselves and as we can afford it.

RiderOnTheStorm

Motor-Ed wrote: »

...My budget and view is saying initially buy something olded but making sure the chassis and mechanical ends are sound...

We were thinking along same lines, but for different reasons. We went for something a bit older (& cheaper) just to make sure we liked it, and got use out of it for a couple of years. If all goes well, we will trade up. Didnt want to spend a fortune and then find that the idea didnt match the reality ...

Betsy Og

Funnily enough I posted on here a couple of months ago about those roll out awnings for a caravan but not that common it seems. We do have a humongous awning but I dont really bother putting it up for anything shorter than a long weekend (if at all). Its not THAT hard but it is a bit of a hassle and tis no sooner up but the obsession with getting it down dry starts!!:D

On our 2nd caravan we've a fixed double at back (where the DVD player is usually set up), kids bunks opposite kitchen and U shaped lounge up front. Lounge is always available (no beds) so either its nice enough to sit out, or just sit inside. On the first one the awing was more necessary for living space. So may try to get that roll out awning for the best of both worlds.

Other thing about caravan is that it gives you 2 "bases". Say the ladies want to go shopping and t'lads want to watch the match or a DVD at the campsite (not lapsing into stereotypes you'll note;) ) then both can co-exist.

On the stigma point, no doubt its there but you're honestly more conscious of it before you own a caravan. Before you associate them with halting sites, piebald ponies etc. Once you have one you associate it with freedom, holidays etc. Never had an ounce of trouble here, UK or continent & I even have an LK reg which should alarm those in the know (the Rathkeale effect), so wouldnt have any concerns in that regard, just dont tow with a Transit van:eek:

paddyp

Betsy Og wrote: »

b) some people dont like towing (its not that bad, I do bleedin' hate snaking but if its a major factor for someone then a twin axel should sort it)

Saw some ridiculous towing this year, it should be illegal to tow without some form of stabiliser with the price of them theres no excuse.

Regarding the stigma, motorhomes seem to be catching on quickly in the travellling community a large proportion of motorhomes I've seen parked around the local aldi this summer and around ballinasloe have been owned by members of the travelling community, thats up from two (both local) I noticed last year. I always wondered why they weren't more popular.

Betsy Og

paddyp wrote: »

Saw some ridiculous towing this year, it should be illegal to tow without some form of stabiliser with the price of them theres no excuse.

How do you mean ridiculous?, were they speeding with the caravan waving all over the place, or a massive caravan being pulled by a Ford Fiesta?? (there's a great Youtube clip, think its called Big Caravan Small Car - basically car dragged backwards down a steep hill).

I find 90-95 KPH is about the upper limit before entering the 'sway zone'. We have the ALKO hitch stabiliser (as have most caravans), but thinking of getting that electronic braking unit. Other tips are:

1. Placing weight as low as possible and near the axle. (Less weight the better I suppose). Must get a nose weight guage.
2. Keep the car as heavy as possible versus the caravan (decrease and tendancy to push). Just watch the back of the car isnt down on the back wheel!, get weight in front of the back axle of the car if possible.
3. Dont speed (80kph is the legal limit in Ireland). Anything above 100kph is probably dangerous (with a single axle).
4. A steep downhill is a significant risk factor, drop a gear (or 2), engine brake and go slow.
5. Trucks are an annoyance - the 'suck in & push out' effect is exaggerated, often your first warning of being overtaken by a truck is a weird dragging sensation ... in your bowels:eek: Try to leave as much of a gap as possible, only overtake them on uphill - you're slow but they are slower (and watch you dont delay faster traffic behind).
6. Crosswinds can bring on a sway, so slow down on high bridges, entering an elevated section of motorway, on a windy day etc.

So if you want to have a disaster then floor the accelerator to overtake a truck on a steep downhill somewhere windy, if you dont then go easy and you'll be fine.

Had one bad snake this year, fairly sure it was because 2 cars zoomed close by me at just the right interval so the initial sway got added to by the 2nd guy (I was only going about 80k), so about 10 gut wrenching seconds and one change of underwear later and we were through it. For the record, & all the official advice is consistent, if in a snake then:

1. Take your foot off the gas but dont brake (and if you find yourself instincitively braking then do so v v gently).
2. Drop a gear ... gently.
3. Wait for it to calm down, exhale, swear, narkily refute any suggestion that it was your fault:D.

Anyone who says "bury the accelerator to come out of it" is playing a v v high stakes game -dont do it - "the faster the speed the bigger the mess".

So there you have it, THE one bit I dont like about caravanning. That said, if you stay off motorways nearly all those risk factors fade back, so around Ireland it isnt such an issue. However if going long haul on the continent you either take chances, have a twin axle, or accept the fact that you'll have to putter along and take a long time to get there compared to your zooming motorhomer mates.

RiderOnTheStorm

Betsy Og wrote: »

.......
5. Trucks are an annoyance - the 'suck in & push out' effect is exaggerated, often your first warning of being overtaken by a truck is a weird dragging sensation ... in your bowels:eek: Try to leave as much of a gap as possible, only overtake them on uphill - you're slow but they are slower (and watch you dont delay faster traffic behind)
.....

Yes, noticed this a lot on latest outing with my CV too! Maybe because I was on the motorway a lot this time (not so much on prev 2 outings). At least there is no 'snake' with a CV!

On slight off-topic .... got flashed at by a truck I passed out. I hope this is the old trucker safety aid, where 1 truck will flash the other when the end of his trailer has passed the cab (so overtaker knows its safe to pull back in) ... do they still do that?

Betsy Og

RiderOnTheStorm wrote: »

Yes, noticed this a lot on latest outing with my CV too! Maybe because I was on the motorway a lot this time (not so much on prev 2 outings). At least there is no 'snake' with a CV!

On slight off-topic .... got flashed at by a truck I passed out. I hope this is the old trucker safety aid, where 1 truck will flash the other when the end of his trailer has passed the cab (so overtaker knows its safe to pull back in) ... do they still do that?

Yes, flashing to let someone know its safe to return to the left lane is fairly standard practice & be sure to return the favour when a truck passes you out.

Motor-Ed

No interest in caravanning

Betsy Og

Motor-Ed wrote: »

No interest in caravanning

Care to elaborate?, just as a matter of general interest (I'm not an evangelist, you can close the door on me:D).

se conman

Will I won't I.

I did.
I arrived home tonight to find my camper had been delivered, can't wait till the weekend.

Motor-Ed

Betsy Og wrote: »

Care to elaborate?, just as a matter of general interest (I'm not an evangelist, you can close the door on me:D).

It's a feeling 1
Secondly I only just started thinking about a camper
That itself is a step
I drive for a living and would have no problem with the towing, reversing (we teach it) etc
As an aside can,t agree or condone driving over 80 kmph while towing, anything!
The camper idea is for my wife and I , no more berths (or births) planned

Macspower

paddyp wrote: »

Regarding the stigma, motorhomes seem to be catching on quickly in the travellling community a large proportion of motorhomes I've seen parked around the local aldi this summer and around ballinasloe have been owned by members of the travelling community, thats up from two (both local) I noticed last year. I always wondered why they weren't more popular.

Gards can't take your caravan for having no tax...

Motor-Ed

se conman wrote: »

Will I won't I.

I did.
I arrived home tonight to find my camper had been delivered, can't wait till the weekend.

Well how's the Camper working out!

se conman

Brilliant, we waited till we found the perfect one for us and after touring in it for a week and a few weekends away, we can't fault it or our choice in style.

the purdu

I bought a '95 6 berth a few months ago, best f**king thing I ve done in years.......