Jagaur XF breakdown (Advance Warning)

Curious Geroge

Recently my new(ish) 2.2 Diesel XF decided to leave me stranded at the side of the road. With some 7k kms on the clock and it been 5 months old, an AA call later and the car is in the local dealership. Assuming a warranty issue I was very much surprised when told that the car required a new fuel filter to get it up and running again. In frustration, I contacted Jaguar customer care. This is where the warning to potential owners or anyone thinking of buying one begins. The head of customer care Ireland tells me that the fuel system in the XF, the Landrover and some Ford's (all 2.2 diesels) have an issue with the additive added to some fuels that cause the fuel filter to do its job and save the engine. My problem is that it looks like I'll have a potential visit to the main dealership without warranty cover ever 7k kms.

- rant over -

Curious Geroge

OSI wrote: »

****ty Diesel causing failures in the fancy emission reduction systems is a well known problem across all makes.

You can't really expect them to stand over the warranty if the car if you're putting in fuel that will damage it.

I would'nt but I'm on a fuel card with the largest distributor in the country !! Note, its not about dirty fuel, its about the additive that's been added to the fuel. If its a known issue, they should be telling there customers (both the fuel company and the Jagaur sales teams).

Arciphel

Did you give you any advice about where to fill it where you can avoid this "additive"?

Scortho

Where do you buy your diesel?

Cee-Jay-Cee

Scortho wrote: »

Where do you buy your diesel?

Is there a difference in diesel sold here and that sold in the uk and the rest of Europe? Or is it a problem the XF will experience Europe wide?

Curious Geroge

I was told by the Jaguar rep to mix it up between Topaz and the other brands. Not to sure if this is to fob me off or not. It all seems a little ridiculous too me.

Arciphel wrote: »

Did you give you any advice about where to fill it where you can avoid this "additive"?

Curious Geroge

CJC999 wrote: »

Is there a difference in diesel sold here and that sold in the uk and the rest of Europe? Or is it a problem the XF will experience Europe wide?

No idea.

Matt Simis

What exactly happened that caused the car to not function (leave you stranded)? Its hard to understand how something as basic as a fuel filter having an issue with fuel was enough to disable the car.

I also wouldn't put any faith in the "its some other companies problem" response from the support staff.. without specific names on the additive and it details on its alleged effects, this seems like a "vendor problem" responsibility dodging response.

Likewise, your advance warning is too broad and vague to actually warn anyone of anything!? Your car is 5mths old... are you really going to accept this (out of warranty BS) as aftercare?

Lissavane

Curious Geroge wrote: »

Recently my new(ish) 2.2 Diesel XF decided to leave me stranded at the side of the road. With some 7k kms on the clock and it been 5 months old, an AA call later and the car is in the local dealership. Assuming a warranty issue I was very much surprised when told that the car required a new fuel filter to get it up and running again. In frustration, I contacted Jaguar customer care. This is where the warning to potential owners or anyone thinking of buying one begins. The head of customer care Ireland tells me that the fuel system in the XF, the Landrover and some Ford's (all 2.2 diesels) have an issue with the additive added to some fuels that cause the fuel filter to do its job and save the engine. My problem is that it looks like I'll have a potential visit to the main dealership without warranty cover ever 7k kms.

- rant over -

I wonder if it's definitely a fuel filter problem or if it might be the dpf filter. Lots of results for that here: https://www.google.ie/search?q=jaguar+xf+filter+problem&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&gws_rd=cr
DPF = diesel particulate filter

martinr5232

I work in a main dealers and late last year early this year we had an awfull lot of cars coming in on tow wagons and drove in with EML's and loss of power.

Diagnostic tests were coming up with low fuel pressure faults.

We changed filters and cleared faults test drove vehicles and fault was cured.

The only thing most of the vehicles had in common was where they got theyre diesel and im not talking about these places that spring up over night either.

_Kaiser_

There's a serious problem here if the diesel available in the larger chains (Topaz, Esso etc) is causing problems with the fuel systems in newer cars and the dealers/manufacturers are walking away from it.

I mean, if you're buying your diesel from one of those pop-up places that is selling it for 8-10c off the norm then you take your chances, but if you always get your fuel from a reputable garage then where else are you supposed to go?

Seems to me like the garages and the manufacturers have some talking to do. In the meantime what does the motorist do?

gallag

Would that be the same 2.2 (200ps) thats in my ford?

Curious Geroge

martinr5232 wrote: »

I work in a main dealers and late last year early this year we had an awfull lot of cars coming in on tow wagons and drove in with EML's and loss of power.

Diagnostic tests were coming up with low fuel pressure faults.

We changed filters and cleared faults test drove vehicles and fault was cured.

The only thing most of the vehicles had in common was where they got there diesel and im not talking about these places that spring up over night either.

Thanks for the info. The Jaguar mechanic took the time in the garage to talk with me; no fault was recorded in the car. I had my concerns about that as I would expect that no matter what happens, if the car fails to start I would expect a fault telling someone that the car failed to start.

Curious Geroge

Matt Simis wrote: »

What exactly happened that caused the car to not function (leave you stranded)? Its hard to understand how something as basic as a fuel filter having an issue with fuel was enough to disable the car.

I also wouldn't put any faith in the "its some other companies problem" response from the support staff.. without specific names on the additive and it details on its alleged effects, this seems like a "vendor problem" responsibility dodging response.

Likewise, your advance warning is too broad and vague to actually warn anyone of anything!? Your car is 5mths old... are you really going to accept this (out of warranty BS) as aftercare?

Car running, in traffic, slight shutter and dead. The starter kept ticking over but nothing happening. After all the time the Customer Rep (only one person for Ireland) spent on the phone explaining additives and fuel I told him I did'nt really care and asked for this information in writing. Once I get it, I'll post the information re the additive that causes the issue.

Curious Geroge

Lissavane wrote: »

I wonder if it's definitely a fuel filter problem or if it might be the dpf filter. Lots of results for that here: https://www.google.ie/search?q=jaguar+xf+filter+problem&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&gws_rd=cr
DPF = diesel particulate filter

DPF usually gives a warning and is caused when the car (or any new car) is usually driven only in the city and never gets a proper run.

Curious Geroge

gallag wrote: »

Would that be the same 2.2 (200ps) thats in my ford?

Cant confirm but if its the same fuel system as the new Jaguar or the Landrover then I suspect yes.

martinr5232

Curious Geroge wrote: »

Thanks for the info. The Jaguar mechanic took the time in the garage to talk with me; no fault was recorded in the car. I had my concerns about that as I would expect that no matter what happens, if the car fails to start I would expect a fault telling someone that the car failed to start.

Just to clarify i dont work in a Jag dealer so maybe the jag might not log faults in the module i dont know.

There was talk a while ago that the microns in the fuel filters were too small and getting blocked too easily so maybe thats the problem with your car it could have been manufactured a while before you bought it.

The problem seems to have fixed itself with us now so weather the fuel company sorted it or the manufacturer did i dont know but havent seen the same problem in months.

Scortho

CJC999 wrote: »

Is there a difference in diesel sold here and that sold in the uk and the rest of Europe? Or is it a problem the XF will experience Europe wide?

Well lets put it this way, theres an awful lot of diesel out there that was once a different colour.

If you were buying continuously from one of the branded stations (apple green and tesco seem to be crap) then no.
But if it was one that sells at 5-10c cheaper than the rest then that can lead to problems.

Lissavane

Curious Geroge wrote: »

DPF usually gives a warning and is caused when the car (or any new car) is usually driven only in the city and never gets a proper run.

True. I thought there were so many reports about this from Britain that it was worth mentioning.

You haven't said what your driving pattern is. I'd imagine Ford/Jaguar would annalise that that before they would consider a warranty claim.

I suspect it is a low mileage/low speed problem, ie inappropriate use.

Voodoomelon

Gonna follow this thread, interesting stuff. Diesels these days just seem to be a heartbreaking choice.

martinr5232

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Gonna follow this thread, interesting stuff. Diesels these days just seem to be a heartbreaking choice.

They are if your not doing the driving to justify having a diesel but people look at the price of diesel and think its going to be a cheap little run around.

With DPFs fitted on most now its a nightmare with cars coming in with the dpf stuffed up because its not getting the driving to regenerate it.

Its alright now for most people because a lot of cars are under warranty but when the warranty runs out people are gonna be hit for bills of hundreds if not thousands for new dpfs and diagnostics.

Thats not to mention the trouble you get with washed diesel and just crap diesel in general pumps and injectors packing up to beat the band and thousands to replace or repair.

So maybe for a lot of people they would be better off paying a few cent more for a litre of petrol !!

lomb

Diesels still sound terrible as if they are running on grit whereas petrol sounds like a turbine potentially. The clutchs are also alot harder to carry the extra torque. They tend not to like revs either .Most people dont care and just look at the mpg, road tax and cheaper fuel cost. Diesel wins on day to day costs so is putting new petrol cars to shame.

jimgoose

The Duratorq 2.2 unit is used in several fairly common Ford, Citroen and Peugeot models, as well as those new Jags. With regard to this fuel filter malarkey, they get a lot of this kind of thing in the UK as well, and the current thinking is to do with Winter vs. Summer diesel.

Aside from various detergents, the main additive in roadgoing diesel fuel is anti-gelling (a.k.a. "waxing") agents, preventing the fuel from partially solidifying in the cold. In the old days I remember my father lighting small fires under the fuel tanks of half-knackered old diesel Volkswagens to counteract this - do NOT try this at home!

The key number is the cold-filter plugging point, i.e. "the lowest temperature, expressed in 1°C, at which a given volume of diesel type of fuel still passes through a standardized filtration device in a specified time when cooled under certain conditions." The standards used here are the same as in the UK, i.e. -5C for Summer fuel and -15C for Winter. Note that certain additives don't actually prevent waxing, rather they prevent wax flakes clumping together into a troublesome size. These days manufacturers of fuel systems and engines are using finer and finer fuel filters to help prevent damage to the increasingly delicate and expensive gubbins, so this sort of thing rears up now and then, especially with the newer cars.

In the UK much of the empirical evidence does indeed suggest that these problems are worse with certain brands of fuel, e.g. certain supermarket outlets.

Old diesel

Think id be taking this up with Jaguar HQ in the uk and establishing what the minimum recommended fuel standards for this car are.

Then id start taking random samples of fuel after various fill up and start getting them tested - to establish fuel quality of the fuel that's being used normally.

Another potential course of action is to get some friends/relations/work colleagues to ring up Ford, Land Rover and Jag contact numbers mentioning that they are thinking of buying a Ford/Land Rover or Jag fitted with this engine - but are concerned about what quality levels the diesel needs to be.

You may find that they might be a bit more helpful when they are trying to sell someone something (or think they are ).

IMO - and I am not a legal type expert - but if the diesel is fine and the additive that Jaguar claim is problematical is in all irish diesels and is fully legal and can't be avoided easily - then I would take the view that the car is not fit for purpose.

You would need legal advice from a solicitor etc though to establish the course of action (if any) to be taken in that scenario.

Mind you - I certainly wouldn't deem it acceptable for a 50 grand executive car running on normal road diesel that's within standard spec (not washed, clean, meets required legal road diesel standards) to conk out after only 7,500 miles on the road.

Actually - the best thing is to just get some legal advice from a solicitor type - either Jaguar are messing you around or you've bought some iffy diesel recently.

As an aside ive never felt confident in the whole set up with Topaz - it always felt too much like "an irish solution" - would rather have been able to continue buying Shell branded fuels etc.

the culture of deference

martinr5232 wrote: »

Diagnostic tests were coming up with low fuel pressure faults.

We changed filters and cleared faults test drove vehicles and fault was cured.

cured for how long?

lomb

A filter is 20 quid and takes around 15 minutes to install. Keep one in the boot and some selected tools? Wouldnt bother me too much . I wouldnt be tracking down solicitors for a dodgy filter. Could just be some crud from the petrol station tanks that got sucked in. Maybe they had a fresh fill and it got stirred up. Who knows what lurks in there.

keithclancy

lomb wrote: »

Diesels still sound terrible as if they are running on grit whereas petrol sounds like a turbine potentially. The clutchs are also alot harder to carry the extra torque. They tend not to like revs either .Most people dont care and just look at the mpg, road tax and cheaper fuel cost. Diesel wins on day to day costs so is putting new petrol cars to shame.

Jazz sounds terrible to me, saying that, not everyone hates Jazz music.

Fuel bill would be at least 600-700 euros every 4 weeks in a 2.0 Petrol vs 2.0 Diesel at around 280-300 every 4 weeks.

jimgoose

Old diesel wrote: »

Think id be taking this up with Jaguar HQ in the uk and establishing what the minimum recommended fuel standards for this car are.

Then id start taking random samples of fuel after various fill up and start getting them tested - to establish fuel quality of the fuel that's being used normally....

Interesting wheeze. The standard in question is EN590

Shane732

I had a fuel pump problem with my E93 335i (petrol). Apparently the ethanol in Maxol petrol was causing problems.

Anyway to cut the story short, BMW replaced the fuel pump and filter outside warranty under their goodwill scheme.

There is not a chance I'd be letting Jag get away with making you pay for the replacement. If their car isn't able to handle commercially available Irish diesel then they shouldn't be selling the car in Ireland.

In my experience the garage will throw everything back on the manufacturer. You do the same, the garage is your friend - no point in eating the head off them at this stage. Keep looking to talk to people higher in Jaguar. You're basically not talk the car back until they've fixed the problem and you're not paying for it.

Have you got a loaner at the moment?

Shane732

lomb wrote: »

A filter is 20 quid and takes around 15 minutes to install. Keep one in the boot and some selected tools? Wouldnt bother me too much . I wouldnt be tracking down solicitors for a dodgy filter. Could just be some crud from the petrol station tanks that got sucked in. Maybe they had a fresh fill and it got stirred up. Who knows what lurks in there.

What?

He's driving the guts of a €50k 5 month old car and you're expecting him to go around with a fuel filter in the boot and be prepared to change it at any point in time? There's not a chance I'd be willing to do that. If the car is that temperamental they can have it back.

If the problem is really just a filter then Jag will replace it no problem.

There's no need to go down the solicitor route.

BMJD

martinr5232 wrote: »

They are if your not doing the driving to justify having a diesel but people look at the price of diesel and think its going to be a cheap little run around.

Jaguar don't even sell petrol XFs here according to their own site. It's rubbish to suggest that people aren't using the cars properly, if a modern premium car can't handle normal driving then the car is the problem, not the driver imo

Scortho

BMJD wrote: »

Jaguar don't even sell petrol XFs here according to their own site. It's rubbish to suggest that people aren't using the cars properly, if a modern premium car can't handle normal driving then the car is the problem, not the driver imo

Diesel cars need high miles or else they can give lots of trouble.
People should be advised of this however when purchasing diesels.

martinr5232

BMJD wrote: »

Jaguar don't even sell petrol XFs here according to their own site. It's rubbish to suggest that people aren't using the cars properly, if a modern premium car can't handle normal driving then the car is the problem, not the driver imo

Read the whole post and the one before it before you start saying my post is rubbish nowhere did i say it was people not using jags properly i said people buying diesels and not using them properly.

People are buying diesel cars because they think they are cheap to run and use them to drop the kids to school and do the shopping which in a modern diesel you just cant do its a fact of life diesels need driving and if you cant justify a diesel buy a petrol to drive to mass once a week.

The OP here has a problem with fuel filters and a certain brand of diesel which i have given my opinion on in a previous post and i would assume if your buying a marque like a jag your buying it to drive and not tip up and down to the shops once or twice a week.

Shane Fitz

martinr5232 wrote: »

The OP here has a problem with fuel filters and a certain brand of diesel which i have given my opinion on in a previous post and i would assume if your buying a marque like a jag your buying it to drive and not tip up and down to the shops once or twice a week.

7K km over 5 months works out at 16,800km for the year!

martinr5232

Shane Fitz wrote: »

7K km over 5 months works out at 16,800km for the year!

Which would be about average milage.

Im not sure if your trying to make a point here or not ??

BMJD

martinr5232 wrote: »

Read the whole post and the one before it before you start saying my post is rubbish nowhere did i say it was people not using jags properly i said people buying diesels and not using them properly.

People are buying diesel cars because they think they are cheap to run and use them to drop the kids to school and do the shopping which in a modern diesel you just cant do its a fact of life diesels need driving and if you cant justify a diesel buy a petrol to drive to mass once a week.

The OP here has a problem with fuel filters and a certain brand of diesel which i have given my opinion on in a previous post and i would assume if your buying a marque like a jag your buying it to drive and not tip up and down to the shops once or twice a week.

Apologies if my post read like a personal attack, that wasn't intentional. My point is still the same though, petrol XF isn't an option here, if someone went into a Jag showroom and asked for one, would the salesman direct them to another marque or would they try and sell them a diesel?

Again, if 7,000km in 5 months isn't enough to keep a car happy then I still believe the car is the problem.

Shane Fitz

martinr5232 wrote: »

Which would be about average milage.

Im not sure if your trying to make a point here or not ??

Well I may be wrong, but isn't the perceived wisdom here that, apart from driving style, 20k + is diesel mileage and anything less is POTENTIALLY a lead up to trouble.

Scortho

Shane Fitz wrote: »

Well I may be wrong, but isn't the perceived wisdom here that, apart from driving style, 20k + is diesel mileage and anything less is POTENTIALLY a lead up to trouble.

Yep unless it's an alfa 159 as the petrols are woeful compared to diesels.

martinr5232

BMJD wrote: »

Apologies if my post read like a personal attack, that wasn't intentional. My point is still the same though, petrol XF isn't an option here, if someone went into a Jag showroom and asked for one, would the salesman direct them to another marque or would they try and sell them a diesel?

Again, if 7,000km in 5 months isn't enough to keep a car happy then I still believe the car is the problem.

No problem.

Again though i didnt say anything about the OP should have bought a petrol i was talking about people in general buying diesel and doing five or six K a year then wondering why they have problems when dpfs start giving trouble.

As for a salesman advising people what they need they would be few and far between sure once they get a sale its a workshop problem after that.

Curious Geroge

Shane732 wrote: »

I had a fuel pump problem with my E93 335i (petrol). Apparently the ethanol in Maxol petrol was causing problems.

Anyway to cut the story short, BMW replaced the fuel pump and filter outside warranty under their goodwill scheme.

There is not a chance I'd be letting Jag get away with making you pay for the replacement. If their car isn't able to handle commercially available Irish diesel then they shouldn't be selling the car in Ireland.

In my experience the garage will throw everything back on the manufacturer. You do the same, the garage is your friend - no point in eating the head off them at this stage. Keep looking to talk to people higher in Jaguar. You're basically not talk the car back until they've fixed the problem and you're not paying for it.

Have you got a loaner at the moment?

Garage was sound. Got a replacement car, heads up on the fault, heads up about the warranty cover, chat with the mechanic. I'd have expected Jaguar Ireland to acknowledge that the car was using standard high quality (all fuel card receipts available) and they should be telling there customers of the issue since its known and not pissing on there current customers. As per the title, its a warning to anyone considering buying one - have them acknowledge the issue and add it to your warrenty or walk away from the purchase.

Curious Geroge

Shane732 wrote: »

What?

He's driving the guts of a €50k 5 month old car and you're expecting him to go around with a fuel filter in the boot and be prepared to change it at any point in time? There's not a chance I'd be willing to do that. If the car is that temperamental they can have it back.

If the problem is really just a filter then Jag will replace it no problem.

There's no need to go down the solicitor route.

Fuel filter on the XF isn't visible so you cant swap it out easily.

magicman88

Father has 2011 jag xf 3.0 diesel no issues what so ever from new

Curious Geroge

magicman88 wrote: »

Father has 2011 jag xf 3.0 diesel no issues what so ever from new

I had the 2.7 prior to this. Both the 2.7 and 3.0 have different fuel systems so its not an issue with them. I cant explain why but the Jaguar Ireland rep talked the ear off me why this is the case.

Curious Geroge

Final response from Jaguar. It seems that commercially available fuel can be used in a Jaguar but you will need to confirm with the garage each time to ensure that its EN590 specification or equivalent as it seems that the diesel I used in my local Topaz was not (but yet I have no way to prove that and I dont know if its an instance reaction to the failure or something that can happen after a period of time after usage). For the potential buyer, be aware of the customer service you get for your 50k spend !!

wonski

I honestly can't believe this! You are supposed to check with station?
What kind of business is this? People use their cars abroad. Diesel should be diesel, petrol should be petrol.
Some diesels are not good for Jag?

Curious Geroge

wonski wrote: »

I honestly can't believe this! You are supposed to check with station?
What kind of business is this? People use their cars abroad. Diesel should be diesel, petrol should be petrol.
Some diesels are not good for Jag?

Qoute off the letter I received "your vehicle is designed to operate with a diesel fuel which conforms to EN590 specification or equivalent and your handbook {page 146} states this in addition it also states that is not recommended to use RME {bio-diesel} except in the case of proprietary diesel fuels which contain a mix of up to 7%".

So I do think that makes it clear that Jaguar will not accept 'common sense'. I cannot see anyway to fuel my car without written confirmation from the garage on every visit that the fuel is compliant.

pippip

Would it not just be a case of written confirmation from each brand. Then you know which garages you can and can't use.

Surely each garage from a specific brand gets the same supplies.

Does seem that you would have to keep all receipts for every purchase to prove you conformed with their rules.

Curious Geroge

pippip wrote: »

Would it not just be a case of written confirmation from each brand. Then you know which garages you can and can't use.

Surely each garage from a specific brand gets the same supplies.

Topaz provided written confirmation and 2 sets of test results to Jaguar confirming so. That together with my topaz fuel card showing every purchase at a topaz garage Jaguar still say its not them. That said there's no way topaz can verify every garage is tested ok and doubtful any garage would agree to such demands for a fill of fuel. Jaguar should be supporting there cars if this is the result..

Just

ninty9er

Are you doing many long journeys? Short journeys will absolutely ruin the engine on a modern diesel unless it's driven hard on a long spin every now and then. That would be the DPF issue referred to.

Ronnie Beck

ninty9er wrote: »

Are you doing many long journeys? Short journeys will absolutely ruin the engine on a modern diesel unless it's driven hard on a long spin every now and then. That would be the DPF issue referred to.

It's not about DPF's, short journeys or modern diesels. Read the thread from the start.

Crazy stuff from Jaguar. Hope they come up with a solution for you for your sake george.

wonski

Curious Geroge wrote: »

Topaz provided written confirmation and 2 sets of test results to Jaguar confirming so. That together with my topaz fuel card showing every purchase at a topaz garage Jaguar still say its not them. That said there's no way topaz can verify every garage is tested ok and doubtful any garage would agree to such demands for a fill of fuel. Jaguar should be supporting there cars if this is the result..

Just

The problem I see there is how are You expected to know that? For me this is a design fault rather than petrol(diesel) stations responsibility. All diesel / petrol should be of the proper quality. At the end of the day you buy diesel for your car, not a diesel conforming to whatever norm they choose.

I hope it turns out ok for you anyway. I think it had nothing to do with that diesel, but this is based on nothing really...Just a hunch.