Can you be electrocuted by a shower?

Steve

This thread is dedicated to Bruthal..:p

So, can you?

If all else fails, can the water carry a lethal shock or do you need to touch exosed metal to receive a fatal dose?

Bruthal

Steve wrote: »

This thread is dedicated to Bruthal..:p

So, can you?

If all else fails, can the water carry a lethal shock or do you need to touch exosed metal to receive a fatal dose?

If you touch a Live terminal, will you receive a shock?

Steve

Generally, yes, but it depends on what the rest of you is touching so best answer there is 'it depends'.

Bruthal

Steve wrote: »

Generally, yes, but it depends on what the rest of you is touching so best answer there is 'it depends'.

Well, in the vast majority of cases, its no unless there are 2 points of contact besides the feet on the ground. But like the belief by the majority that water is a good conductor, not many believe that.

Anyway, a fault at the immersion, where the element has an earth fault, causes 230v to appear at the shower outlet? Highly unlikely.

If the cylinder is completely unearthed, and the immersion has no RCD, and the open neutral element end somehow contacts the cylinder, and the cylinder is now at 230v, and the pipe to the mixer shower is copper, a shock is still unlikely imo.

But now there is no fear of off topic stuff, whats your theory?

shleedance

Never heard this happen before, and I've been in pretty dodgy looking showers.

TheBody

I remember when I did phase 2, the instructor told us of a person that was electrocuted in a their shower. Think is was in Carlow. Think is was a diy installation.

TextureLikeSun

It happened a close relation on my husbands side .Poor girl was only 15 - the official explanation given to the family was that a power surge combined with faulty wiring was the cause.I think about it every so often when in the shower and scare the life out of myself :-\

Bruthal

Lots of immersions I changed had totally split, and the exposed element was directly in the water. Still never heard of a problem in the shower.

Its a bit different than the slightly misleading title, Can you be electrocuted by a shower, as the thread was started from an immersion problem thread.

Hayezer

Got some nasty shocks off the On/Off and Temperature knobs a few months back, was something to do with an earth fault is all I know. Could that have been dangerous?

TheBody

Chect this out:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/tributes-for-gaa-player-electrocuted-in-shower-177085.html

Steve

Think mythbusters here - is it possible at all?

I'm not dissing anyone's knowledge or experience here - in fact I'm calling on it to spur on debate, c'mon lads, bit of craic!:D

What if there were no earths on the DHWS and a lead pipe on the outflow?

Bruthal

Hayezer wrote: »

Got some nasty shocks off the On/Off and Temperature knobs a few months back, was something to do with an earth fault is all I know. Could that have been dangerous?

These were the reasons why RCDs became mandatory on electric showers.

Bruthal

Steve wrote: »

Think mythbusters here - is it possible at all?

I'm not dissing anyone's knowledge or experience here - in fact I'm calling on it to spur on debate, c'mon lads, bit of craic!:D

What if there were no earths on the DHWS and a lead pipe on the outflow?

Well, deaths in electric showers are well documented. But from immersion faults? I doubt it highly. We had a similar thread before, a fella was concerned because of bath drain leaking down into the DB in the room below.

Again, not likely that would cause a problem for someone in the bath. That was the general consensus here if I remember rightly.

But still, immersion fault is a little different than fault on a DIY installed electric shower.

For the completely unearthed DHW system, anything is possible. But its possible I might win the lotto this week.

mikerodgers96

http://www.etci.ie/fatalfacts/accident.php?AccidentID=33

no rcd

ineffective earthing

death from 'indirect contact'





i would say that's typical in these cases

Bruthal

mikerodgers96 wrote: »

death from 'indirect contact

Probably from direct contact onto shower hose maybe. Hard to see fatal shocks happening easily through a spray of water.

mikerodgers96

Bruthal wrote: »

Probably from direct contact onto shower hose maybe. Hard to see fatal shocks happening easily through a spray of water.

yes

it's termed 'indirect contact' when you get a shock from the hose as it's not normally live

i think people have been electrocuted by the water too

Bruthal

mikerodgers96 wrote: »

i think people have been electrocuted by the water too

Would be hard enough to be electrocuted simply from the shower of water probably.


Water is a high resistance conductor particularly when any distance is involved, any distance more than a few mm`s, and a small cross section. Put the probes of a multimeter into a cup of water, one on each side, and 40 kilo ohms will probably be seen, hardly the reading of a good conductor.

So what will the reading from a shower head to the person be, when its likely in separate droplets rather than a nice clean unbroken stream.

mikerodgers96

ya i don't know too much

but i would have thought the spray would be unbroken generally rather than droplets?

Media999

Teenager from Waterford is now dead after being electrocuted in shower. Answer is yes.

mikerodgers96

Media999 wrote: »

Teenager from Waterford is now dead after being electrocuted in shower. Answer is yes.

one thing i don't understand


all these new rules freezing out qualified electricans etc. from new domestic
work


and nothing enforced on periodic inspections and remedial work on existing dangerous installations

by insurance companies or otherwise

would help eliminate some of these tragedies........

Bruthal

mikerodgers96 wrote: »

ya i don't know too much

but i would have thought the spray would be unbroken generally rather than droplets?

I tested it before a few years ago. A tap with one probe and other probe into the water stream showed over 100k ohms I think. Shower showed no reading from hose to spray. It might have if a large metal plate was put into the shower stream maybe, rather than a small probe. But the resistance would be extremely high most likely.

I think showers used to have the hose connected to a metal connection which was part of the tank. Its plastic now on triton showers anyway, probably reducing the chance of shocks if problems arose.

Id still say some direct physical contact was likely in fatalities rather than purely in the shower stream. But who knows. Some people are killed by secondary events caused by shocks, such as falling. Others receiving fingertip shocks from lighting BC holders claim they were blown across the room, which in my opinion is fantasy fuelled by panic and terror at the shock, in combination with losing balance and stumbling. So the accuracy from "survivors" is likely inaccurate.

mikerodgers96

The ERA tests confirm that tap water in a plastic pipe is a poor conductor of
electricity. One metre of 15mm diameter of plastic pipe filled with tap water from
Leatherhead where the ERA are based, has resistance of 100,000 Ohms. This one
metre of 15mm pipe will restrict currents to less than fatal values and of course in
practice, there would be many metres of pipe between metal items of plumbing
equipment and earth.

http://www.plasticpipesgroup.com/pdfs/earthbonding.pdf


you'd be talkin about a metre total anyhow from heater tank to person

mikerodgers96

you'd only have a short gap from heater tank to a metallic hose though so resistance would be a lot lower there

they're also generally insulated now afaik?

it's possible alright there's a variety of unfortunate factors involved in these tragedies

mikerodgers96

Another soldier who tried to 'pry him from the shower head' also was injured
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29891090/ns/us_news-military/t/troops-iraq-shower-still-may-be-fatal/#.Ueb8dtLrxhA

Bruthal

mikerodgers96 wrote: »

The ERA tests confirm that tap water in a plastic pipe is a poor conductor of
electricity. One metre of 15mm diameter of plastic pipe filled with tap water from
Leatherhead where the ERA are based, has resistance of 100,000 Ohms. This one
metre of 15mm pipe will restrict currents to less than fatal values and of course in
practice, there would be many metres of pipe between metal items of plumbing
equipment and earth.

http://www.plasticpipesgroup.com/pdfs/earthbonding.pdf


you'd be talkin about a metre total anyhow from heater tank to person

And a lot further from immersion to shower, which was the real topic this arose from.

mikerodgers96

Bruthal wrote: »

And a lot further from immersion to shower, which was the real topic this arose from.

ya unless it was all-copper connected

unlikely scenario anyhow if neutralizing, bonding present

Media999

mikerodgers96 wrote: »

one thing i don't understand


all these new rules freezing out qualified electricans etc. from new domestic
work


and nothing enforced on periodic inspections and remedial work on existing dangerous installations

by insurance companies or otherwise

would help eliminate some of these tragedies........

Not an electrician myself just seen this thread on the front page.

From what i understand the shower was replaced and the same wires where used instead of being replaced.

Some kind of inspector was out to check if anything was illegal and it wasnt. Fully qualified electrician related to family replaced shower years ago. No breaking of rules and no one charged with causing it. I assume its not necessary to change the wires by regulation but i heard this was a major contributor to the accident.

mikerodgers96

Media999 wrote: »

Not an electrician myself just seen this thread on the front page.

From what i understand the shower was replaced and the same wires where used instead of being replaced.

Some kind of inspector was out to check if anything was illegal and it wasnt. Fully qualified electrician related to family replaced shower years ago. No breaking of rules and no one charged with causing it. I assume its not necessary to change the wires by regulation but i heard this was a major contributor to the accident.

prob best not speculate if this is a recent event?

adrian92

No. You will not get a significant level of current from water. (pure) water is a poor conductor. However, if ones skin becomes wet from water then the natural (conductive) salts on ones skin become dissolved- making for a very good conductive path, in the event of one coming in contact with a live item.

Hope this makes sense.

claypigeon777

Staff Sgt. Ryan Maseth who was a member of the Green Berets was electrocuted in a shower on a base in Iraq in 2008.

According to the Army Criminal Investigation Division, Staff Sergeant Maseth died when the electricity in the shower facility short-circuited because an electric water pump on the rooftop was not properly grounded. An initial investigation by the DOD's Criminal Investigative Division office found that the Defense Contract Management Agency (DCMA) was aware of the electrical safety hazard posed by this shower facility prior to the death of Staff Sgt. Maseth.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-mitchell/toll-rises--at-least-18-u_b_124863.html

adrian92

Claypidgeon,

Am very sorry to note of the terrible event you posted,

This site is, however, I understand is , as I understand, a technical forum - perhaps the moderator could advise.

It is not , in my opinion, appropriate to introduce photographs of tragic incidences in this site.

I assume , of course, that it has some considerable personal significance - and resonance for you.

Perhaps, at my request, the Moderator would comment on this sensitive item on this technical forum.

Bruthal

adrian92 wrote: »

No. You will not get a significant level of current from water. (pure) water is a poor conductor. However, if ones skin becomes wet from water then the natural (conductive) salts on ones skin become dissolved- making for a very good conductive path, in the event of one coming in contact with a live item.

Hope this makes sense.

The main reason wet skin conducts better is because the water forms a microscopic thin layer over a large area (large area compared to thickness or length). So if we take the water in cable terms, it might have a cross section area of 100mm square (skin contact area), but a length of only 0.1mm or far less (thickness of water between skin and live object). The shorter a conductor, the better it conducts, and the larger the CSA, the better it conducts. So the water is forming a large CSA with tiny length.

Dry skin is very high resistance even compared to fresh water.
The skin salts do of course add to it, which I think was mentioned earlier.

So even wet hands are not the very good conductive path in electrical terms, they are just a lot better than dry hands. The same way water is a far better conductor than porcelyn, but that does not make water a good conductor.

Steve

Bruthal wrote: »

when its likely in separate droplets rather than a nice clean unbroken stream.

This is the clincher.
However conductive the water is due to additives / contaminants, the fact that it separates into droplets means it cannot conduct a harmful current to a person in the shower.
The other side of the coin is the shower head / taps becoming live due to a broken neutral (per a previous discussion) and ineffective earthing (for example a 'fixed' leak where copper pipe was replaced with qualplex and thereby isolating a section of pipework).

My OP, whilst a bit sensationalist, is actually quite possible.

mikeoneil1000

maybe so

but does it actually separate into droplets?

mikeoneil1000

http://www.plasticpipesgroup.com/pdfs/earthbonding.pdf

good document here.