Quality of fuel in Ireland, oil mixes for 2 strokes, and more...

Pappacharlie

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it has come to my attention that the quality of Diesel in general is very bad. Even in what you would consider "brand leaders". My service man told me to change the fuel filter regularly and I also use a very good diesel additive called "Dipthane" which is very good for your injectors and fuel system.I use it about once a month.
I have a good friend who is a large contractor with lots of heavy plant and he told me that over the last 18 months or so the quality of diesel generally is terrible. Apparently we used to import a lot of our diesel from Libya and when the trouble broke out over there importers changed to other sources. don't know how true that is but it was around that time I noticed the change in diesel quality.

Outkast_IRE

I would of thought diesel if legitimate was all supplied via whitegate.

Bandara

Pappacharlie wrote: »

it has come to my attention that the quality of Diesel in general is very bad. Even in what you would consider "brand leaders". My service man told me to change the fuel filter regularly and I also use a very good diesel additive called "Dipthane" which is very good for your injectors and fuel system.I use it about once a month.
I have a good friend who is a large contractor with lots of heavy plant and he told me that over the last 18 months or so the quality of diesel generally is terrible. Apparently we used to import a lot of our diesel from Libya and when the trouble broke out over there importers changed to other sources. don't know how true that is but it was around that time I noticed the change in diesel quality.

Complete horse****

derry

The oil refining process is similar to the bread manufactures .The bread makers can stuff in the bread saw dust and make extra money .Same thing with the oil refinery process they can chop and chose between high quality oil and low quality oil
A famous case of this has proved this conclusively.A ship left the USA texas a few years back stuffed with coke oil .Coke oil is basicaly oil waste.After refinery the Coke oil contains some low quality petrol and low quality Diesel oils and some very toxic waste oils which are normaly not economic to refine further so are normally sent to waste disposal .A company caled Tariffa however shiped the Coke oil across to Norway and they pumped into a large shore tank where they added LYE a cuastic soda material .After time the lighter low quality petrol floated to the top and the more heavy diesel floated up to the mid section of the tank and the more toxic stuff which was the heaviest sank to the bottom .Then they skimmed the low Qualty petrol and diesel of the tanks and shipped them to Latvia where they mixed it with high quality petrol and Diesel and then shipped that all off to west africa where there are no controls on fuels .The realy toxic stuff was then shipped off and dumped in Africa and kiled many locals .The only reason the whole scam came to light was the tanks in Norway were not built to be primitive cheap refineries and one tank blew up .The toxic fires poisoned many locals in Norway and the Norwegians had the money to spend to figure out the whole story .
Since then world wide many whistle blowers have exposed the oil companies shenanigans to supply us with crap fuels .
In Ireland we just got Whitty island and I know many two stroke engine suppliers will tell you the quality of the petrol fuel in Ireland is so bad they have to extra lubricating oils to protect the more fragile two stroke engines
Its fully logical the more low quality oil they can stuff into high quality oil fuels the more profits.Probably when Libya Fuel was available the higher quality of the Libyan fuel might not have required the Whitey island to put so much low quality oil into the fuels .
Welcome to the rip off Republic run by the gomebeens in the King George the thirds 1926 Irish government Lienster House 26 county provisional Irish Government. if they wreck your engines allowing the oil companies to sell you sh1t fuels then you got buy new cars and they get more VRT money and you wont be able to prove it easily the bad fuel caused the entire problem

Derry

Outkast_IRE

derry wrote: »

The oil refining process is similar to the bread manufactures .The bread makers can stuff in the bread saw dust and make extra money .Same thing with the oil refinery process they can chop and chose between high quality oil and low quality oil
A famous case of this has proved this conclusively.A ship left the USA texas a few years back stuffed with coke oil .Coke oil is basicaly oil waste.After refinery the Coke oil contains some low quality petrol and low quality Diesel oils and some very toxic waste oils which are normaly not economic to refine further so are normally sent to waste disposal .A company caled Tariffa however shiped the Coke oil across to Norway and they pumped into a large shore tank where they added LYE a cuastic soda material .After time the lighter low quality petrol floated to the top and the more heavy diesel floated up to the mid section of the tank and the more toxic stuff which was the heaviest sank to the bottom .Then they skimmed the low Qualty petrol and diesel of the tanks and shipped them to Latvia where they mixed it with high quality petrol and Diesel and then shipped that all off to west africa where there are no controls on fuels .The realy toxic stuff was then shipped off and dumped in Africa and kiled many locals .The only reason the whole scam came to light was the tanks in Norway were not built to be primitive cheap refineries and one tank blew up .The toxic fires poisoned many locals in Norway and the Norwegians had the money to spend to figure out the whole story .
Since then world wide many whistle blowers have exposed the oil companies shenanigans to supply us with crap fuels .
In Ireland we just got Whitty island and I know many two stroke engine suppliers will tell you the quality of the petrol fuel in Ireland is so bad they have to extra lubricating oils to protect the more fragile two stroke engines
Its fully logical the more low quality oil they can stuff into high quality oil fuels the more profits.Probably when Libya Fuel was available the higher quality of the Libyan fuel might not have required the Whitey island to put so much low quality oil into the fuels .
Welcome to the rip off Republic run by the gomebeens in the King George the thirds 1926 Irish government Lienster House 26 county provisional Irish Government. if they wreck your engines allowing the oil companies to sell you sh1t fuels then you got buy new cars and they get more VRT money and you wont be able to prove it easily the bad fuel caused the entire problem

Derry

Whiddy island is a storage site and nothing more, to the best of my knowledge no refinement occurs there whatsoever.

Whitegate is the only refinery in the country, they are owned by a big player in the industry ConocoPhillps I honestly doubt there are any antics going on, on their end.
I know a few people working in the Labs down there and there is no funny business going on , on their end.
What happens after it leaves the refinery and sold to other companies though is anybodys guess

To put it bluntly though , your entire post contains incorrect facts and digs about VRT and King George etc

kincaid

its the same with heating oil,
i noticed that our oil was not lasting near the same length as it was so asked a guy who services the boilers etc and he says that now the oil is being refined more and so burns away quicker, basically more money for the suppliers i would think

Cedrus

kincaid wrote: »

its the same with heating oil,
i noticed that our oil was not lasting near the same length as it was so asked a guy who services the boilers etc and he says that now the oil is being refined more and so burns away quicker, basically more money for the suppliers i would think

While there might be some logic in there, it's not really coming out in your post, or maybe it's the service mans explanation.

If fuel is more refined then you should get more out of it, if you're used to burning crappy fuel you will have to clean your boiler more often and it will not have great calorific output (I remember digging yellow/pink waxy ****e out of my parents boiler years ago when heating oil was unregulated/unspecified).

If you use more refined fuel it should burn better, hotter and more cleanly. If you don't adjust your settings on the burner you will wear it out. If you don't adjust the settings on your timeclocks you will be wasting a lot of energy/hot water.

derry

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Whiddy island is a storage site and nothing more, to the best of my knowledge no refinement occurs there whatsoever.

Whitegate is the only refinery in the country, they are owned by a big player in the industry ConocoPhillps I honestly doubt there are any antics going on, on their end.
I know a few people working in the Labs down there and there is no funny business going on , on their end.
What happens after it leaves the refinery and sold to other companies though is anybodys guess

To put it bluntly though , your entire post contains incorrect facts and digs about VRT and King George etc

"Sorry typo whiddy versus Whitegate not from those parts so easy to mix up the names"
Yes I am sure your friends in Labs will testify there is no funny stuff but the other parts of the world the whistle blowers exposed the supply lines are so long there is many points they can change fuel formulas and many ways to to fool the chemical labs with fake samples .
Governments set limits to fuel quality and these limits vaary considerably due to factors like winter fuel versus summer fuel fuel evaporation of lighter distillates amounts of stabilizers to keep some fuels fresh for three months and allowed amounts of sulpher in EU 50ppm versus third world regions 5000pppm added chemicals for many reasons and then you see that nearly every liter of diesel or petrol fuel is very different.These differences are what allow the shenanigans to take place .Loose light touch banking by the governments allowed the finial crisis.The loose light touch to oil industry to ROI allows more shenanigans to exist but because most motorists have no chemicals test kits to verify their fuels its mostly going to show up as less MPG and more frequent service and repair bills

Derry

derry

Cedrus wrote: »

While there might be some logic in there, it's not really coming out in your post, or maybe it's the service mans explanation.

If fuel is more refined then you should get more out of it, if you're used to burning crappy fuel you will have to clean your boiler more often and it will not have great calorific output (I remember digging yellow/pink waxy ****e out of my parents boiler years ago when heating oil was unregulated/unspecified).

If you use more refined fuel it should burn better, hotter and more cleanly. If you don't adjust your settings on the burner you will wear it out. If you don't adjust the settings on your timeclocks you will be wasting a lot of energy/hot water.

Refining is huge and complex business.Most older non inline diesel engines will run on unrefined sweet crude That is the light brown colored stuff resembles lubricating oil but the CATS and particle filters will most likely not be made to cope with the large range of complex molecules exiting the burn process. That light crude oil fuel will be a mix of petrol's Parrifins diesels Bunker oils lubricating oils but the majority of this crude oil type is diesels fuels so the diesel engines can cope with it . The sour crude is the heavy black sticky stuff and often has high sulfur content and requires more refining to get it to the EU levels of 50PPM of sulfur in the fuels and generally only large ship engines and large electric generators can burn this stuff without refining as it has to be preheated

The refining process can alter fuel a lot
If they want they can change diesel fuel with cracking into Petrols or parrifins but that takes energy to do that .They can change heavy bunker oil into diesels if they want but again it takes energy so its avoided as much as possible .It done to try to balance out demands too many cars running on petrol like the USA they ship the Excesses EU petrol's to the USA and if that isn't enough then they crack excess diesel to make petrol's
In refining if they want they can change the ratio in diesel from near 98% all diesel to ratio of 90% diesel and 10% paraffin or kerosene with changing the refining system or mixing after refining .Most diesel engines will tolerate some kerosene or parrifin in the fuels but this will show up as less MPG as these lighter distillates will be less energy dense as Diesel fuels .
Diesel itself as fuel can and is sold in Spain in two versions gasoil A and Gasoil 10 so there are different forms of Diesel out there (The agricultural stuff or heating oil diesel non taxed is gasoil B )


In terms of what is diesel oil they chose a type of heavy carbon ring molecule that is somewhere between lighter distillates carbon rings like Parrifin and heavier fuels distillates like bunker oil with very heavy carbon ring molecules .
Using further refining they can cut the diesel so that more lighter carbon ring diesel fuels will go into the diesel fuels so even though it is nearly 100% diesel it will be be lighter carbon ringed diesel fuel that returns less MPG as the energy density will be less .Then throw in some few percent of really heavy carbon ring stuff closer to heavy lubricating oil or near to tar molecules that wont burn in the engine but will burn in the CAT and your getting the car to burn the waste oil in the cats and saving €5 euros a kilo on getting waste oil companies to get rid of it and the MPG will fall further and you sell more diesel .The crude fuel types themselves can be more rich in lighter carbon ring molecules and swing the energy content of the diesel moils down wards.
Lots of ways to stuff saw dust into the bread mix exist when you dealing with millions of carbon ring formulas that can all be legally called diesel fuels and will burn but at very different energy levels
Until you take samples and get the fuel you buy checked you don't know if or how much saw dust is in the bread mix you buy . the only clues that can help expose them are sudden unexpected loss in MPG increased visits to service stations to fix or repair problems that crop up ahead of normal scheduled service time tables .
More refined is double edged sword and so it depends on what the refinery wants it to be more MPG or less MPG and no waste oils mixed in or more waste oils mixed in .
The massive extra demands for diesel fuels over the last decades has put pressure on diesel fuel supplies from each barrel of oil and has shown up in diesel fuel prices often are similar or near to Petrol prices so incentives to lighten the diesel fuels kick in

In the old days most fuels were light crude as it is the first to exit the well head and needed very little energy to refine it so there wasn't much incentive to the oil refinery companies to sell bad fuels

However as nowadays the crude oils tend be more often the heavy sour crude you get when the oil wells are mostly used up the result is the refining uses more energy and the incentive to stuff more saw dust in the bread mix increases .So as the years roll on expect more fuel quality issues until the new MASSIVE finds from places like Australia come on steam and supply us more lighter crude oils to mix into the mix .Lucky for the world the huge finds in Australia and other parts of the world like Brazil and USA has meant oil is still going to be abundant for a great many years but expect oil prices to stay steep as governments tax the crap out of it with junk science CO2 global warming crap



Derry

Cedrus

derry wrote: »

Refining is huge and complex business.
............................................................................................
junk science CO2 global warming crap

Derry

I have no idea why you quoted my post! Your conspiracy ramblings have nothing to do with what I said.

derry

@Cedrus
OK i wont guote you again or debate or reply with you again on any subject so now you can be happy

Derry

ba_barabus

derry wrote: »

@Cedrus
OK i wont guote you again or debate or reply with you again on any subject so now you can be happy

Derry

Can you do that with all posts as you just seem to post incompressible nonsense across long rambling posts that have little to do with anything all the time backing claims up with "facts" and figures you've plucked out of the air.

knipex

derry wrote: »

I know many two stroke engine suppliers will tell you the quality of the petrol fuel in Ireland is so bad they have to extra lubricating oils to protect the more fragile two stroke engines

Derry

You do know that you are supposed add extra lubricating oils to 2 stroke engines ? Quality of the petrol has nothing to do with it !!!

All fuel sold in Ireland and Europe has to meet standards...

http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/Atmosphere/AirQuality/FuelStandards/

Its tested to ensure it does..

DanWall

It would appear that diesels are not that fussy what they burn if people can add cooking oil

Bandara

ba_barabus wrote: »

Can you do that with all posts as you just seem to post incompressible nonsense across long rambling posts that have little to do with anything all the time backing claims up with "facts" and figures you've plucked out of the air.

Fully agree, the absolute stream of complete nonsense he spurts out its bordering on insanity

derry

knipex wrote:

You do know that you are supposed add extra lubricating oils to 2 stroke engines ? Quality of the petrol has nothing to do with it !!!

Yes in case i didn't make it clear .Two stroke engines which require for lubrication two stroke oil added for example 50:1 oil mixture many two stroke suppliers in Ireland will advise that due to the low quality of Irish petrol they advise to double the oil content from 50:1 to 25:1 or basically double the recommended oil content that the is recommended for that engine .

knipex wrote:

All fuel sold in Ireland and Europe has to meet standards...

http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/Atmosphere/AirQuality/FuelStandards/

Its tested to ensure it does..

Yes and NO
The paper refers to mostly sulfer content a small but important element in the Diesel fuel story.High sulfur content in diesel fuel will wreck the CAT and particle filters .
What is important to know is they now add as much as ~7% bio fuel to the diesel fuel to reduce the sulfur content issues and the damage the sulfur extraction process does to diesel fuels lubrication qualities and this alone will reduce MPG as bio fuel doesn't give as much MPG as diesel fuel .

The paper notes that lower density less energy rich diesel is to be sold for the non road market .
Without exact reference to carbon ring types that leaves it open to what exactly is lower density diesel and the possibility to do the saw dust in the bread tricks

Nothing in this paper worth noting that has any real testing other than sulfur content about 1/10,000,000 the the story of the diesel fuel

Derry

derry

orlacorcoran wrote: »

well my car has bad diesel which contains bio diesel high levels of water and a very high acid content amongst other elements that should not be in diesel.
i did not set out to buy bad diesel .. but surly im not the only one who purchased it.

Where did you buy that fuel and if you prefer not to say exact garage can you state region and supplier type like large multiple or small Indy

How can you know that is in the fuel was it tested and if tested by which type of tester

Bio fuels are normally acidic and they require extra solutions to make them less acidic .Washed fuel is often acidic as they use acid to remove the dyes .Irish diesel fuels are now all containing about ~7% bio fuels which will have the acid removed.Washed fuel will probably now add the 7% bio fuel to the mix so it it makes it harder to find out it is washed fuel and they probably don't bother to to remove the acid from the bio fuels they add .Water in diesel is hard to say the filter can pick up the water a few fills back from another station and it will sit in the bottom of the filter .Only draining the filter every fill will help for sure expose which garage supplied the water filled fuel

Ralf

corkgsxr

ba_barabus wrote: »

Can you do that with all posts as you just seem to post incompressible nonsense across long rambling posts that have little to do with anything all the time backing claims up with "facts" and figures you've plucked out of the air.

Hammertime wrote: »

Fully agree, the absolute stream of complete nonsense he spurts out its bordering on insanity

I agree. Ludicrous ideas backed up by imo and iv found. Mad advice in general

knipex

derry wrote: »

Yes in case i didn't make it clear .Two stroke engines which require for lubrication two stroke oil added for example 50:1 oil mixture many two stroke suppliers in Ireland will advise that due to the low quality of Irish petrol they advise to double the oil content from 50:1 to 25:1 or basically double the recommended oil content that the is recommended for that engine .

No offence meant but that's complete and absolute rubbish.

If you ran most two stroke engines at 25 to 1 you would have so much smoke it would make them unusable. I have a couple of chainsaws, strimmers, hedge clippers, and various other 2 stroke powered machines all run of 50 to one (or 40 to one depending on engine) and zero problems.. I could name 20 or 30 others doing the same and I also know more than a few guys who service this stuff and none of them would recommend a 25 to 1 ratio..

I have no idea where you are getting this advice but I would advise you to find another mechanic \ service guy for your small two stroke engines..

derry

knipex wrote: »

No offence meant but that's complete and absolute rubbish.

If you ran most two stroke engines at 25 to 1 you would have so much smoke it would make them unusable. I have a couple of chainsaws, strimmers, hedge clippers, and various other 2 stroke powered machines all run of 50 to one (or 40 to one depending on engine) and zero problems.. I could name 20 or 30 others doing the same and I also know more than a few guys who service this stuff and none of them would recommend a 25 to 1 ratio..

I have no idea where you are getting this advice but I would advise you to find another mechanic \ service guy for your small two stroke engines..

Well I been running all sorts of marine 2 stroke engines for many years in Ireland and they all got serviced at various different service outlets who were often marine and two stroke engine sellers and service.
Over the years problems started with engines and following the advise of the agents to increase the oil content buy double reduced problems and service issues for the marine engines so for me the proof was in the pudding .I asked them why one should double the oil content in Ireland and several of them said the petrol fuel in Ireland in Ireland was so crap.
Petrol has some lubrication abilities but bad petrol will have less lubrication abilities so i presume as the agents were in the firing line to fix the problems they found that solution worked
I cant speak for your smaller engines as most engines i worked with were often 5bhp to 300 BHP sometimes more but the average engine was 20BHP
As most modern outboards are now 4 stroke the issue is decreasing as most two strokes are replaced with the new four strokes .
4 stroke engines for the outboards and motor bikes were the best invention ever

.
Derry

derry

To the critics of my posts after you read the stuff below if you got any brains you will sell your diesel car and buy a petrol car as this bad diesel issue will get worse as time goes along PROOF IS HERE .
The modern low sulfur diesel and the addition of bio fuels has made diesel fuel so different its no longer a good fuel
Most of this material says some of the stuff what I said to you and more horrific stuff and stories that explain why lots of people are rapidly going back to petrol engines

http://www.diesel-fuels.com/bad-diesel-fuel.php

diesel-fuels.com wrote:

The diesel fuel of today is not the same as what was available years ago. Up until about 15-20 years ago, refineries used only about 50% of a barrel of crude oil to make distillates such as gasoline, jet fuel and diesel fuel. The remainder of the barrel of crude oil went to "residual oil" such as lubricating oils and heavy oils. Today, as a result of different refining techniques and additive packages, the refinery uses 85% or more of the same barrel of crude, which clearly has consequences for fuel stability. In addition, requirements within the U.S. since 2007 of Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) fuels further impacts fuel performance. Further, some regions of the U.S. also use a percentage of bio-diesel blended into fuels.

These changes have made diesel fuel more unstable (higher susceptibility to bread-down) and more apt to separate, contributing to the accumulation of water in the tank (microbial habitat).

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/magnolia-tx/TJO86MCFLMLMS1NB9

topix.com wrote:

Filled up my 2008 F250 with Diesel at Shell station on Harford Rd Parkville Md. Water filter light came on in 2 min after leaving satation. I drained water out. Light came on next day. Took truck for dealer had tank cleaned out, lines flushed and new filters. Few days passed and truck began to loose poiwer. Back to dealer and payed $1,300 to change filters and new fuel pump. Truck still could not go over 40mph! No turbo boost could not go over 2000rpm. Now looking at $13,000 repair bill!!!! from bad diesel! The pump that sprays 25000psi diesel into engine has broken. 60hs of labor and $6000 in parts. Thank GOD for GEICO Insurance! Truck will be good as new. I cant imagine bad diesel can do this and that FORD (and all others) cant make a filter or some type of safety something to stop bad diesel from doing extreme damage! LOVE MY TRUCK !

Derry

Bandara

"and stories that explain why lots of people are rapidly going back to petrol engines"


But your completely wrong. Ten years ago for every 10 ltrs of Unleaded sold in Ireland there was 2.3 ltrs of Derv sold

Now it's just over 55% unl to 45% derv

Which is a doubling of diesel drivers. And it continues to go up year by year.

And quoting some random website hardly makes a point valid. Jim Corr has a website, but I'd imagine you already knew that .....

knipex

The reason some people are going back from Diesel to Petrol has nothing to do with the quality of Diesel and all to do with they never being suitable for a diesel car in the first place.

Anyone doing 5 to 10K of mainly town miles a year should never have bought a diesel car. Cheap motor tax made it look like a great idea until they stared blowing DPF's (because they never did the type of driving that allowed the DPF to do a regen) and realised that servicing requirements for a diesel were different than a petrol.

Its more to do with lack of knowledge amongst consumers and sales people than anything else

Over the years I have put hundreds of thousands of miles (if not over a million miles) on diesel engines. On the last car I had I put up 98 thousand smiles and 150K miles on the car before that. Never had a single problem and had them both remapped for more power.

That's because I would do at least 2 or 3 100+ mile runs per week, serviced the cars as they should be serviced and changed the oil and filter at between 5 and 6K miles without fail.

The car before that I did 6 months of between a thousand and and 1500 miles a week..

In the last 6 years the only times my cars were in a garage or needed parts (outside of normal service items) was when the bearing seized on an alternator (after 130K miles) and when one of the power steering pipes burst (after 10K miles because of a design issue that resulted in a a recall about 2 months later).

Nonoperational

Derry give it up man.

My immediate family and friends have been running loads of diesel cars for years with no issues. You can always get a bad fill, could be an innocent mistake or not, but posting 2 random posts you found online do absolutely nothing for your argument.

Daibheid

derry wrote: »

Well I been running all sorts of marine 2 stroke engines for many years in Ireland and they all got serviced at various different service outlets who were often marine and two stroke engine sellers and service.
Over the years problems started with engines and following the advise of the agents to increase the oil content buy double reduced problems and service issues for the marine engines so for me the proof was in the pudding .I asked them why one should double the oil content in Ireland and several of them said the petrol fuel in Ireland in Ireland was so crap.
Petrol has some lubrication abilities but bad petrol will have less lubrication abilities so i presume as the agents were in the firing line to fix the problems they found that solution worked
I cant speak for your smaller engines as most engines i worked with were often 5bhp to 300 BHP sometimes more but the average engine was 20BHP
As most modern outboards are now 4 stroke the issue is decreasing as most two strokes are replaced with the new four strokes .
4 stroke engines for the outboards and motor bikes were the best invention ever

.
Derry

This advice is getting dangerous now.
If you double the oil ratio in a marine 2stroke sooner or later at best you'll be paddling home, at worst the RNLI will be scraping what's left of you and your boat off the rocks somewhere.
Marine 2strokes running premix are usually 50:1 but older engines can be very different. If you run any of them at 2x you'll inevitably oil the plugs and that's generally not something you'll easily deal with at sea plus you'll just oil it up again anyway unless you drain the fuel sytem and replace with the right mix.
For any novice boaters, oiling spark plugs means your engine quits and you won't restart it without at least replacing the sparkplugs.
Most larger capacity 2 strokes are automixing anyway from separate oil tanks and vary from 100:1 to 50:1 depending on usage so the only way you can "double up" your oil mix is by adding oil to the petrol which would again virtually guarantee you'll oil your plugs and disable your engine.

The best advice IMHO on running marine 2strokes is ensure you use marine grade 2stroke oil at the engine manufacturers recommended grade and ratio.

Lots of modern outboards are still 2 stroke but the bigger ones use very sophisticated petrol and oil injection systems. If you have a direct petrol injection 2stroke like an optimax or similar the oil spec is very high indeed and although expensive anything less is false economy at best....

BTW even if you don't oil plugs, excess premix oil will coat the piston, head and rings with carbon and diamond hard deposits which WILL eventually destroy the cylinder and piston when chunks of hard deposit from the oil break off and lodge in gas ports or under piston rings. This applies to all 2strokes.

Petrol has zero lubrication - the opposite in fact, it will wash oil and grease away which is why it's great for cleaning wheel bearings before regreasing.

PS to be 100% accurate the only possible exception I can think of to not following manufacturers recommended premix ratio is some Yamaha premix engines from about the 80s (from 2Hp to 90Hp that I know of) were rated to use 100:1. However as Yamaha stopped making engines recommended at 100:1 and reverted to a more typical 50:1, most people run those engines on 50:1.

derry

Nonoperational wrote: »

Derry give it up man.

My immediate family and friends have been running loads of diesel cars for years with no issues. You can always get a bad fill, could be an innocent mistake or not, but posting 2 random posts you found online do absolutely nothing for your argument.

Sorrry I don't want to buy a car that is fragile that one bad fill can give me large repair bill .Even petrol with bad fills will not generally wreck the engines like the modern more fragile diesel do

The EU regulations for fuel taking a perfect good solution like Diesel fuel have wrecked it making low sulfur requirements mixing in Bio fuels which has introduced all sorts of fuel stability problems and now vastly increased the risks of a bad fill .
That doesn't apply so much to older not inline diesel cars

Yeah my family too were happy campers with Diesel and were often the first on the block with them back in the 80s to the nineties

However some have drifted back to petrol recently as the newer petrol's MPG are getting interesting better they can get the good performance on smaller engines without expensive turbos and the service bills are more smaller more frequent but less risk of nasty surprises .

I myself am a 1973 Toyota 2l jap import owner and a fan of the old 1980 to 1990s diesel non inline as they seem to keep going even if the fuel isn't that perfect and some off the Toyota's and Mercs from that time have done more than 1,000,000 miles.

However recently there has been rash of tales of woes from diesel owners in the family about service costs from newer inline diesel engines .The general theme was one bad fill and it often was mega bucks later to sort out .
The general consensus I get from friends and family with the newer Diesel cars is they are a dream to drive until they hit ~100,000 kilometers and then unlike the older diesels the service costs seems to go orbital after that.
Also the modern diesels are easy for the DIY like me

So for me I will probably opt next time to go back to Petrol as I can still service most everything in those my self and the newer petrol's can often get easy 300,000 kilometers so buying 100,000 kilometer petrol is less a risk for me than a modern 100,000 k diesel.
For me I would only buy diesel if its a old diesel from the 1980s or 1990s and they are hard to find .
My cousin is gonna buy in from UK good condition 1983 Merc 124 and cannibalism his other 1987 merc 124 as the parts are similar.
Those engines he can fix with his eyes shut and they burn most any fuel good bad or other wise and some of the 124 I know about have done close to 2,000,000 kilometers .

What I see for ROI modern diesel car users of the future is they will need to take a fuel sample of every fill of fuel they take so they can take the garage to courts for the repair costs when the engines are wrecked from their bad fuels or have some sort of insurance policy that protects them from this event .
Having worked in the ROI Insurance Industry they will happily sell you this Insurance policy , but when you claim they will probably have some get out clause and tell you to f€ck off.

Now you can debate it as much as you want but the tread is Bad diesel fuel and the evidence is this is becoming a more frequent event and more expensive event and i can supply with a lot more than one site that will tell you this bad diesel problem will get worse not better .

For average joe soap who like me does less than 25,000 kilometers a year the risk to stay in diesel is too high is my feeling . The long distance users can run the risk and still get their money back from bad fills that wreck half the engine fuel components .Simple Maths say that the guy with 25,000 kilometers or less per year use if he has even one bad fill he runs the risk to lose all saving from the better MPG the diesel give him

There is not as many bad petrol threads out there here is one of the worst cases from 2007 and the offender Tesco UK had to pay £2000 per car damaged and best I can figure most cars were not badly damaged it was oxygen sensor issues and many cars will work with faulty oxygen sensors and not damage the car making a total refit of all fuel components

Derry

derry

Daibheid wrote: »

This advice is getting dangerous now.
If you double the oil ratio in a marine 2stroke sooner or later at best you'll be paddling home, at worst the RNLI will be scraping what's left of you and your boat off the rocks somewhere.
Marine 2strokes running premix are usually 50:1 but older engines can be very different. If you run any of them at 2x you'll inevitably oil the plugs and that's generally not something you'll easily deal with at sea plus you'll just oil it up again anyway unless you drain the fuel sytem and replace with the right mix.
For any novice boaters, oiling spark plugs means your engine quits and you won't restart it without at least replacing the sparkplugs.
Most larger capacity 2 strokes are automixing anyway from separate oil tanks and vary from 100:1 to 50:1 depending on usage so the only way you can "double up" your oil mix is by adding oil to the petrol which would again virtually guarantee you'll oil your plugs and disable your engine.

The best advice IMHO on running marine 2strokes is ensure you use marine grade 2stroke oil at the engine manufacturers recommended grade and ratio.

Lots of modern outboards are still 2 stroke but the bigger ones use very sophisticated petrol and oil injection systems. If you have a direct petrol injection 2stroke like an optimax or similar the oil spec is very high indeed and although expensive anything less is false economy at best....

BTW even if you don't oil plugs, excess premix oil will coat the piston, head and rings with carbon and diamond hard deposits which WILL eventually destroy the cylinder and piston when chunks of hard deposit from the oil break off and lodge in gas ports or under piston rings. This applies to all 2strokes.

Petrol has zero lubrication - the opposite in fact, it will wash oil and grease away which is why it's great for cleaning wheel bearings before regreasing.

PS to be 100% accurate the only possible exception I can think of to not following manufacturers recommended premix ratio is some Yamaha premix engines from about the 80s (from 2Hp to 90Hp that I know of) were rated to use 100:1. However as Yamaha stopped making engines recommended at 100:1 and reverted to a more typical 50:1, most people run those engines on 50:1.

Sorry I don't want to hijack the thread into the quirks of the two strokes
First when we ran the outboards to specs in the 1980 to 2010 era we often had to paddle back while waiting for the rescue to arrive usually another club boat appointed to rescue the broken down boats so we did not need to call RNLI .Doubling the oil content stopped the problems .We simply replaced spark plugs more often if they showed sign to be oily only took a few minutes to check spark plugs before leaving the harbors.
The vast majority of the engines I dealt with jumped past the auto lube solutions in preference for four strokes but i did seize a large 100 BHP auto lube O/B using the specified marine fuels on hot day after a very long run at full speed run so the boss at never bought another auto lube after that straight to four stokes . The engine was out of warranty so it was bad news as it was only 5 years old .

I also do micro motors for sports use often ~30 to ~50cc petrol engines or methanol using both types of engine .The methanol engines require often ~10% oils to lubricate as the fuel has no lubricating qualities . The bearing on the methanol version are plain bearing to suit the fuel type issues .The same version engines sold with ignition and able to burn petrol will have needle bearing and use different type of lubricating oil which can mix with Petrol fuels and they only need ~3% lubricating oil.The reason for this is the lubricating quality of petrol fuel although small is able to allow the amount of the lubricating oil to be reduced a lot .
However many of the ROI guys found that engine wear on the petrol versions were were higher than expected and unexpected engine stops were too frequent and again found tracing it back to ROI quality of fuel. Again the solution was to bump the fuel oil up to ~5% to solve this
RPM reading showed with the same engines using a sample of UK petrol one club member took from his car from UK trip showed there was more RPM from UK fuel .
I stopped to buy the petrol version engines and switched back to Methanol as the power was better some 20% more than petrol on the same cc engine and the use was only occasional my ~30cc methanol could hold it own against the 50cc petrol's and the costs were less to buy menthol engines with tuned pipes and fuel costs were not so bad over each years use

Fuel formulas change I haven't tried this years batch of ~2013 Irish petrol as driving my diesel car all this year but knowing the sob's they still sell the same crud. What I do know is that anytime I took my petrol car to UK and filled up I often got much better MPG and engine seemed to be be less noisy.
But if you want to debate two stokes probably better to go to make two stroke thread

There is a reason why many motor sports like formulas or Rally motor cross only allow special fuel formulas they supply to be used .Fuels can be adulterated to supply extra power and fuel is so different form county to county that its causes too many issues for tuning engines

If you look the fuel formulas for the 1930 petrol and the 1960s petrol and the 1980s petrol these fuels are so different it would amaze you

1930s petrol would be defined as more of a white paraffin in today's world of fuels

Derry

gctest50

Daibheid wrote: »

Petrol has zero lubrication - the opposite in fact, it will wash oil and grease away which is why it's great for cleaning wheel bearings before regreasing.

Petrol had lubrication and protection not so long ago back when it was leaded.

This protected the valves and valve seats.

This why if you have an old classic car you will need to use fuel additive or get harder valve seats put in.

Daibheid wrote: »

.....it's great for cleaning wheel bearings before regreasing.

You shouldn't use petrol for cleaning things for a few good reasons

- fire risk ( not too bad - grey, miserable country has its advantages)

- the benzine and so on in modern petrol will do bad things to your body

While i'm rabbiting on ...

Some of the "benzine and so on" ends up in the engine oil so wear gloves / wash down whatever you're at if its oily ( this is more if you're at it day-to-day )

Wash your hands before you go for a pi$$ after working on cars n stuff, bit by bit, day by day it will cause grief :

http://bit.ly/1874nMt

.

dr.fuzzenstein

It's that thread again!

robbie99

derry wrote: »

Yes in case i didn't make it clear .Two stroke engines which require for lubrication two stroke oil added for example 50:1 oil mixture many two stroke suppliers in Ireland will advise that due to the low quality of Irish petrol they advise to double the oil content from 50:1 to 25:1 or basically double the recommended oil content that the is recommended for that engine .

Maybe, just maybe, they're simply trying to double sales.

CJhaughey

If you are really worried about using pump fuel in a two stroke, buy some Aspen 2T premixed. 4-5 year shelf life and as clean a fuel as you can find.
No need to adjust oil ratios or anything else as its mixed at 50:1
BTW if you change oil ratios from 50:1 premix to 25:1 then the jetting will be very lean, you'd need to allow for that.
Thats assuming its a carb engine.

galwaytt

derry wrote: »

Yes in case i didn't make it clear .Two stroke engines which require for lubrication two stroke oil added for example 50:1 oil mixture many two stroke suppliers in Ireland will advise that due to the low quality of Irish petrol they advise to double the oil content from 50:1 to 25:1 or basically double the recommended oil content that the is recommended for that engine .

Derry

OMFG - what nonsense.

Do the above and you'll be buying pistons/rings & barrels/cranks & bearings on a regular basis.

It's simple: Lets say an engine pulls in 50cc on an intake stroke. That 50cc includes air and 'petroil' - (petroil is a word to describe petrol and oil mixed in a % as instructed by the manufacturer to burn efficiently and still provide lubrication to the engine internals).

Now, those quantities are fixed. Just like a syringe, when the piston moves it draws in these constituent items as a 'combustible gas'. The total volume drawn in is not adjustable - it is 50cc.

So, of that 50cc, about 7cc is petroil, the rest air. This is (very) approximately stoichiometric ratio.

Now, all of a sudden you decide to increase the amount of oil as you propose, what changes ? Total intake of 50cc remains the same. 43cc of air remains the same. 7cc of petroil remains, but of that petroil, you have displaced some of its petrol content. Now your engine runs weak (mixture-wise) as there is too little petrol/too much air, and your engine runs hot, you get pre-ignition, and you will wreck pistons/rings etc.

ba_barabus

galwaytt wrote: »

OMFG - what nonsense.

And prepare for a 2000 word reply of it again

coolbeans

ba_barabus wrote: »

And prepare for a 2000 word reply of it again

At least he signs off EVERY time just so we don't forget who's ranting on, and on, and on, and on...

ba_barabus

coolbeans wrote: »

At least he signs off EVERY time just so we don't forget who's ranting on, and on, and on, and on...

ba_barabus

As an aside I've been using chainsaws etc on our family farm for years and have never had any issue with them as long as I followed the recommended mixture ratios from the manufacturers.

Bandara

ba_barabus wrote: »

As an aside I've been using chainsaws etc on our family farm for years and have never had any issue with them as long as I followed the recommended mixture ratios from the manufacturers.

1801. - I have just returned from a visit to my landlord - the solitary neighbour that I shall be troubled with. This is certainly a beautiful country! In all England, I do not believe that I could have fixed on a situation so completely removed from the stir of society. A perfect misanthropist's heaven: and Mr. Heathcliff and I are such a suitable pair to divide the desolation between us. A capital fellow! He little imagined how my heart warmed towards him when I beheld his black eyes withdraw so suspiciously under their brows, as I rode up, and when his fingers sheltered themselves, with a jealous resolution, still further in his waistcoat, as I announced my name. 'Mr. Heathcliff?' I said.
A nod was the answer.


'Mr. Lockwood, your new tenant, sir. I do myself the honour of calling as soon as possible after my arrival, to express the hope that I have not inconvenienced you by my perseverance in soliciting the occupation of Thrushcross Grange: I heard yesterday you had had some thoughts - '

'Thrushcross Grange is my own, sir,' he interrupted, wincing. 'I should not allow any one to inconvenience me, if I could hinder it - walk in!'

The 'walk in' was uttered with closed teeth, and expressed the sentiment, 'Go to the Deuce:' even the gate over which he leant manifested no sympathising movement to the words; and I think that circumstance determined me to accept the invitation: I felt interested in a man who seemed more exaggeratedly reserved than myself.

When he saw my horse's breast fairly pushing the barrier, he did put out his hand to unchain it, and then sullenly preceded me up the causeway, calling, as we entered the court, - 'Joseph, take Mr. Lockwood's horse; and bring up some wine.'

'Here we have the whole establishment of domestics, I suppose,' was the reflection suggested by this compound order. 'No wonder the grass grows up between the flags, and cattle are the only hedge- cutters.'

Joseph was an elderly, nay, an old man: very old, perhaps, though hale and sinewy. 'The Lord help us!' he soliloquised in an undertone of peevish displeasure, while relieving me of my horse: looking, meantime, in my face so sourly that I charitably conjectured he must have need of divine aid to digest his dinner, and his pious ejaculation had no reference to my unexpected advent.

Wuthering Heights is the name of Mr. Heathcliff's dwelling. 'Wuthering' being a significant provincial adjective, descriptive of the atmospheric tumult to which its station is exposed in stormy weather. Pure, bracing ventilation they must have up there at all times, indeed: one may guess the power of the north wind blowing over the edge, by the excessive slant of a few stunted firs at the end of the house; and by a range of gaunt thorns all stretching their limbs one way, as if craving alms of the sun. Happily, the architect had foresight to build it strong: the narrow windows are deeply set in the wall, and the corners defended with large jutting stones.

Regards
Terry

Matt Simis

dr.fuzzenstein

Hammertime doing exactly what it says on the tin.

derry

galwaytt wrote: »

OMFG - what nonsense.

Do the above and you'll be buying pistons/rings & barrels/cranks & bearings on a regular basis.

It's simple: Lets say an engine pulls in 50cc on an intake stroke. That 50cc includes air and 'petroil' - (petroil is a word to describe petrol and oil mixed in a % as instructed by the manufacturer to burn efficiently and still provide lubrication to the engine internals).

Now, those quantities are fixed. Just like a syringe, when the piston moves it draws in these constituent items as a 'combustible gas'. The total volume drawn in is not adjustable - it is 50cc.

So, of that 50cc, about 7cc is petroil, the rest air. This is (very) approximately stoichiometric ratio.

Now, all of a sudden you decide to increase the amount of oil as you propose, what changes ? Total intake of 50cc remains the same. 43cc of air remains the same. 7cc of petroil remains, but of that petroil, you have displaced some of its petrol content. Now your engine runs weak (mixture-wise) as there is too little petrol/too much air, and your engine runs hot, you get pre-ignition, and you will wreck pistons/rings etc.

If you do any maths on the 50cc engine you will see that the fuel inside the engine for each explosion will be microscopic not 7cc it truly small stoichiometric rates are often 15:1 15 parts air 1 part fuel . At TDC ther eis barley 7cc in the piston chamber .You would get hydraulic lock if you got one misfire and 99.99% of the fuel would exit the engine not burning until it got into the exhaust pipe

using my 50cc motor bike two stroke yamaha and 100cc of fuel over a measured mile

Full speed 4th gear ~50MPH it would do 1 mile ........~ 45 MPG
Slow speed 4th gear ~ 30MPH it would do 2 miles ....~ 90 MPG
Fast speed third gear _30MPH it would do 3 miles....~ 135 MPG
Slow speed third gear ~10MPH it would do 4 miles....~ 180 MPG

In the first case it did a mile in slightly over one minute and the RPM was ball park ~5000RPM so ~5000 rpm divided by 100ccc of fuel means not even 1cc for each explosion in the cylinder more like ~1/50th of cc for each explosion in the engine and the small % of oil in there would be like ~1/300th for each explosion so now you know why the explosion side wont be that effected by some extra oil


Good petrol will contain in some small amounts of diesel fuel some small amounts of Paraffin and some small amounts of lubricating .It will also contain some ethanol alcohol supposed to 5% but with evaporation can be less and if the fuel supplier wants to add more saw dust to the fuel and reduce the MPG he can add a few extra % of alcohol to the fuel and still call it petrol.
Petrol can often contain as much as 35% toluene ( a nasty smelling stuff similar to paint thinner ) but all petrol engine will run on 100% toluene . This Toluene stuff is added to petrol to raise the octane of the fuel.If you put Toluene into low compression engines the fuel will find itself starting to burn too late in the cycle and more of the still burning fuel will enter into the exhaust system of the the cats where it will continue to burn outside the engine hurting the MPG big time .In Australia one time because there was no tax on toluene they sold 100% toluene as petrol fuel and it was only the complaints from the hyper milers who saw MPG fall of a cliff that exposed this oil company scam .
Toluene is one of many tricks in the adding the saw dust to petrol the oil companies can pull to reduce MPG and sell you bad petrol.
There are thousands of chemicals in a petrol fuel.Each oil well will throw up its own unique version of the petrol's and mixing the batches will even things out somewhat .In each oil refinery distillation process there will be waste oil left over which will contain some low quality petrol's diesels parrifins which in the old days were thrown away as waste oil.As oil prices per barrel increased it became more profitable to extract more of the low quality petrol's from the waste oil ,Some countries like Ireland are reputedly more ahead on the curve for extracting more of the low quality petrol's from the oil barrel than countries like USA . A side effect of low quality petrol's is they have less lubrication qualities .As petrol fuel have some small amount of lubrication qualities the oil ratios for 2 stroke are geared around this .The low quality fuel of Eire will supply less power to the 2 stroke engines .It lesser lubrication abilities will not be too exposed due to the fact the engines are not getting to 100% power compared to good petrol but some extra hidden extra wear will be going on .Many 2 stroke and even four stroke engines when they come to shops in Eire and other countries are often adjusted for local fuels as advised by the agents .So for Eire they will often open the jets a extra amount to allow more fuel in to compensate for the local bad fuels here and advance the timing a tad to allow for the extra delay the extra oil can cause and sometimes change the type of spark plugs as well .That still wont supply 100% power .Then Adding some extra % of oil will not cause this fuel starvation issues as bad as your post claims as the agents have often worked out what works best for the local conditions.

If you want evidence of how bad petrol fuels are watch this video where they extract the clean petrol fuels from a petrol fuel with heating it up.The fuel you will see is basic USA fuel types with less crud in it than Irish fuel The Approx 15% of the crud fuel left over in this video is the stuff that doesn't burn well in the engines and is what causes the black soot in the engines. If you set fire to small patch of petrol in Ireland say 100cc you will see the stain it will leave behind on the concrete ground and thats the soots the crud fuel makes in your car engine while burning Irish fuels

Distilling Gasoline
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY6stOum0wM


But if you want to fantasize the Irish fuel hasn't got saw dust methods applied to it then stick to your logic but if your not comparing your MPG to international information then your working off voodoo theory's that the Irish government controls the fuel quality we get in Ireland so well it cant happen here saw dusting the bread mix .

ba_barabus

OH DEAR GOD

Bandara

I muttered, knocking my knuckles through the glass, and stretching an arm out to seize the importunate branch; instead of which, my fingers closed on the fingers of a little, ice-cold hand! The intense horror of nightmare came over me: I tried to draw back my arm, but the hand clung to it, and a most melancholy voice sobbed, 'Let me in—let me in!' 'Who are you?' I asked, struggling, meanwhile, to disengage myself. 'Catherine Linton,' it replied, shiveringly (why did I think of Linton? I had read Earnshaw twenty times for Linton) 'I'm come home: I'd lost my way on the moor!' As it spoke, I discerned, obscurely, a child's face looking through the window. Terror made me cruel; and, finding it useless to attempt shaking the creature off, I pulled its wrist on to the broken pane, and rubbed it to and fro till the blood ran down and soaked the bedclothes: still it wailed, 'Let me in!' and maintained its tenacious gripe, almost maddening me with fear. 'How can I!' I said at length. 'Let me go, if you want me to let you in!' The fingers relaxed, I snatched mine through the hole, hurriedly piled the books up in a pyramid against it, and stopped my ears to exclude the lamentable prayer. I seemed to keep them closed above a quarter of an hour; yet, the instant I listened again, there was the doleful cry moaning on! 'Begone!' I shouted. 'I'll never let you in, not if you beg for twenty years.' 'It is twenty years,' mourned the voice: 'twenty years. I've been a waif for twenty years!'

gctest50

derry wrote: »

You would get hydraulic lock if you got one misfire and 99.99% of the fuel would exit the engine not burning until it got into the exhaust pipe

Utter and total and complete crap :

- Ever have a plug fail / plug lead get wet on a multi-cylinder 2 stroke ?

- By the time you react it'll have done dozens of cycles.

- Fair chance this old thing misfires now and again :

corkgsxr

ba_barabus wrote: »

And prepare for a 2000 word reply of it again

That you wont argue with cos you couldn't be arsed reading it.

knipex

derry wrote: »

using my 50cc motor bike two stroke yamaha and 100cc of fuel over a measured mile

Full speed 4th gear ~50MPH it would do 1 mile ........~ 45 MPG
Slow speed 4th gear ~ 30MPH it would do 2 miles ....~ 90 MPG
Fast speed third gear _30MPH it would do 3 miles....~ 135 MPG
Slow speed third gear ~10MPH it would do 4 miles....~ 180 MPG

WHAT ????? I mean ................. WTF...

So you will get better MPG driving in a low gear than a high gear ???

I .............................................. Ahhhhhhhhhh

derry wrote: »

In the first case it did a mile in slightly over one minute and the RPM was ball park ~5000RPM so ~5000 rpm divided by 100ccc of fuel means not even 1cc for each explosion in the cylinder more like ~1/50th of cc for each explosion in the engine and the small % of oil in there would be like ~1/300th for each explosion so now you know why the explosion side wont be that effected by some extra oil

I just give up..............................................

derry

knipex wrote: »

WHAT ????? I mean ................. WTF...

So you will get better MPG driving in a low gear than a high gear ???

I .............................................. Ahhhhhhhhhh



I just give up..............................................

Well get your Yamaha 50 with 4 gears and conduct the same test and disprove it .
The tests were done to see what was the most amount MPG possible from a 50cc engine .The results were surprising lower gear gave better MPG

The difference is I got off my backside and did the tests to bring you the results so I don't talk fantasy like many petrol heads I talk real life results

However it makes sense in that the 50ccc in third gear high revving doing ~30MPH isn't effected much by wind resistance so much with low speed and the fuel was being used efficiently for the engine

Most mopeds with no gears top out at ~30mph and claim to get 120mpg so the third gear on the geared 50cc was clearly the sweet spot to get Maxim MPG so I can be sure the moped manufactures did their tests on what is the best gears for MPG


For complex technical reasons this often will not apply to cars with 4 or five gears on flat ground but might apply to cars with 6 or more gears that 5th gear and speed of 40MPH will be the best MPG as all the test i done with car has shown 5th gear at ~35 or 40MPH gives best MPG
However for heavy car example mid size Toyota Carina types with smaller engine versions LIKE 1600CC might get better MPG with 4ht gear than 5th but only real life tests will show this to be true or not

Derry

derry

gctest50 wrote: »

Utter and total and complete crap :

- Ever have a plug fail / plug lead get wet on a multi-cylinder 2 stroke ?

- By the time you react it'll have done dozens of cycles.

- Fair chance this old thing misfires now and again :

I dont think you looked the post from galwaytt
he said my numbers were nonsense

The facts were stated that 50cc engine would use 7cc of fuel per firing stroke

My information suggests it would be more like 1/50th of a cc per firing stoke


Hydraulic lock can exist in drag racers where they inject some ~70 gallons of fuel into the engine in 4 seconds and if it occurs it bows up the engine

The drag racers using a mix of methanol and nitro methane fuels will take a standard 8 cylinder V8 from its normal petrol mode of about ~ 250BHP to ~7000BHP (for a few seconds )

The engine will need two spark plugs per cylinder head to burn the fuel.Each cylinder will get one teaspoon of fuel roughly for each firing stroke .Of the 7000BHP made about 1000BHP is diverted to the blowers or super chargers which will stuff inside the engine some ~14 times the normal atmosphere into the engines .As the fuels are high oxygen rich fuels like Nitro methane which barely need any air to burn (eg will work as mono propellant it will burn with no air but will burn better with extra air ) the only limit to the fuel entering is the size of the cylinder at TDC .Too much fuel and the cylinder will not be able to compress liquid fuel and the aluminum cylinder head will exit stage left .
These cars don't use cooling water .Each stroke of any engine will inject fuel into cylinder and this fuel vaporizing will help cool the engine.As petrol fuel stoichiometric rate is bad 15:1 there isn't as much cooling as what alcohol fuel like methanol has with its 8:1 stoichiometricrate . Nitro methane has 2;1 stoichiometric rate so supplies even more cooling as you need ~4 times more Nitro fuel compared to petrol to do the same work .As so much fuel goes into drag racer engine no water cooling is needed the fuel a tea spoon for each cylinder does all the cooling the engine needs .This methanol nitro methane fuel type doesn't like to ignite sorta like paraffin fuels so two very high powered spark plugs are used In the 4 second race after two seconds with the heat from 7000BHP in such a small engine the spark plugs are melted and the engine ignites the fuel from dieseling effects .So much fuel doesn't burn up in the engine so it exits into the exhaust stack . The exhaust pipes act as rockets with burning the fuel up as it is exiting the exhaust stacks and these rocket engine exhaust pipes supply 1.5 ton of down thrust to the front of the car to keep the nose down .If the engine misfires and the fuel doesn't burn the next intake will mean too much fuel will enter the cylinder to burn and the engine will hydraulic lock and blow the engine up .

A side line is the drag racer engine BHP per kilo of engine is about ~70 BHP per kilo of engine weight

Thats about the same power as the best rockets that NASA built so those guys should be building rocket engines for NASA

Now you know why I know there cannot be 7cc of fuel in 50cc engine per explosion stroke or the engine would make 200bhp for 2 seconds as it used one gallon of fuel to go 50 feet

Derry

derry

CJhaughey wrote: »

If you are really worried about using pump fuel in a two stroke, buy some Aspen 2T premixed. 4-5 year shelf life and as clean a fuel as you can find.
No need to adjust oil ratios or anything else as its mixed at 50:1
BTW if you change oil ratios from 50:1 premix to 25:1 then the jetting will be very lean, you'd need to allow for that.
Thats assuming its a carb engine.

100% correct on Aspen 2T solutions and the jetting advise .Also it can effect timing needing more advance timing

But do you know how much a gallon of that Aspen 2T stuff costs and where is ROI supplier of Aspen 2T as I was never able to find Aspen 2T to experiment with the good petrol fuel


Aspen 2T also sell to my knowledge clean fuel with no oil mix in it for other purposes like for generators where the generator can sit for years with no demands but normal fuel would go bad every three months so need to be replaced every three months .Using these Aspen 2T fuels the fuel needs to be replaced every 5 years or something like that

In Sweden it compulsory to use these clean fuels like Aspen 2T with chain saws weed whakers and lawn mowers as the fumes coming from these small engines is not going through CATs and is toxic (small 2 strokes often throw away substantial amounts of fuel as in it doesn't burn inside engine so complex hyrdo carbons unburnt fuel exists the engines and these are cancerous to breath in )
So in Sweden the loggers apart from singing "I am a lumber jack and i AM ok "als Sing "and my chain saw engine farts are breathable"

The Irish logger are not singing as they cough out their cancerous lungs

Some parts of the UK it compulsory to use these clean fuels like Aspen 2T in city regions for lawnmowers and so forth

Some 2 stoke fanatics only use these clean fuels like Aspen 2T even at the higher prices as they want maxim power and they don't want bad fuel wrecking their engines

Derry

gctest50

derry wrote: »

100% correct
But do you know how much a gallon oif that stuff costs and where is ROI supplier I was never able to find one to experiment with the good petrol fuel
.......

Some 2 stoke fanatics only use these clean fuels even at higher prices as they don't want bad fuel wrecking their engines

Derry

Maybe a drop of race fuel would do ya for testing ?

http://dop.ie/lubricants-fuels/elf-racing-fuels/

Good few types of it - some is just "clean" fuel - some is "put together" a bit better - some is sky-high octane

http://www.wp-motorsport.co.uk/race-fuel-selector.html £££££ though - you are right - all fuel should be like these


.

derry

gctest50 wrote: »

Petrol had lubrication and protection not so long ago back when it was leaded.

This protected the valves and valve seats.

This why if you have an old classic car you will need to use fuel additive or get harder valve seats put in.



You shouldn't use petrol for cleaning things for a few good reasons

- fire risk ( not too bad - grey, miserable country has its advantages)

- the benzine and so on in modern petrol will do bad things to your body

While i'm rabbiting on ...

Some of the "benzine and so on" ends up in the engine oil so wear gloves / wash down whatever you're at if its oily ( this is more if you're at it day-to-day )

Wash your hands before you go for a pi$$ after working on cars n stuff, bit by bit, day by day it will cause grief :

http://bit.ly/1874nMt

.

I agree with most of that except my information is the its the lead in the old leaded fuel that protected the valves .The lead to my knowledge formed a layer of lead that made the valve seating softer so they didn't wear out .The change to unleaded fuel meant the valves in older cars wore out very quickly.

Leaded fuel is still used today in light aircraft in ROI as they still use 1960 solutions for aircraft engines .
Many aircraft engines are compression ratios 12:1 similar to what the 1960s cars were to burn the lead petrol fuels .The addition of ethanol alcohol to replace lead meant engines had to drop down to lower compression ratios like 10:1 as ethanol wont stop ping in high 12:1 engines
Modern fuel has some 5% ethanol alcohol in it . Ethanol alcohol like all the alcohol family attracts water to it often from the humidly in the air so water could get into the fuel over time .Old lead fuel has little or no ability to soak water up from the air like the ethanol version fuels .Water in the fuel can stop aircraft engines easy so they chose to avoid it (except for the modern ULM micro light types )

The leaded aircraft fuel is made in 10,000 gallon batches to very exact standards as bad fuel can kill a plane with engine out problems .However the fuel costs something like €4 a liter and small 4 seater planes often only get ~20 miles to the gallon so each flying gallon is expensive its like a car that uses ~8 miles to the gallon

So for any older car buffs that want leaded fuel maybe the solution is to go to the nearest airfield and try to get them to sell you the leaded petrol fuel for your ~1950 car

Best as I can figure the extra lubrication in the old fashioned leaded petrol was mostly due to they didn't refine the petrol so much as they do nowadays . Ethanol alcohol has no lubrication quality and adding 5% ethanol to the fuel dropped its lubrication qualities This combined change means modern petrol's have less lubrication oil content in the fuels and as result less lubrication qualities than older petrol fuels had .Old fashioned engine were built to use the older fuels lubrication qualities.The modern fuels often kill older engines quickly

Derry

ba_barabus

derry wrote: »

So for any older car buffs that want leaded fuel maybe the solution is to go to the nearest airfield and try to get them to sell you the stuff for your ~1950 car

Can't resist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6ZklI4D5Ko