Giving way to buses

Vorophobe

I have a gripe

In Ireland, often I see bus drivers that are very hesitant to rejoin traffic because cars and other vehicles do not slow down to let them in - there is no culture of giving way to buses here. It saddens me because the public transportation system should come first on the roads.

In Australia, you must give way to buses when they are pulling out from the kerb. This is non-negotiable and enshrined in law. On the back of most buses is a big sign that says GIVE WAY, which means when they start to indicate they will pull out in front of you, so you better be ready to give way to them.

My point is, I wish this was the way in Ireland - I'm a motorist myself but I feel bad for these guys Buses should have right of way on the road.

Phew. That feels better

corktina

I always let buses out...and trucks....they are doing a tough job and I like to make it a little less tough

Iwannahurl

There's no culture of giving buses right of way because there is no law specifically requiring it. Bus drivers often depend on the kindness of strangers in cars, as do pedestrians and cyclists.

There's no law requiring it because there is no culture of prioritising the public over the private in this context.

If there was a law requiring it there would be routine non-compliance because there is no culture of rigorously and consistently enforcing such laws.

We've a long way to go in this country.

I recall a German woman telling me years ago how she found it odd that so many motorists would not let buses pull out. IIRC she said it was the law in Germany.

Photo shows motorists illegally blocking the yellow box on the Seamus Quirke Road in Galway, preventing a bus from turning out of the bus lane.

The bus lane ahead was closed off just before the junction, after some sort of hazard was identified by a road safety audit of the scheme.

corktina

so unnecessary...there isn't even a queue!

Ben D Bus

As a bus passenger I find motorists are usually reasonably courteous in this regard during the peak hours. Less so at weekends. Different drivers or just different speeds? I don't know.

And I would have sworn there was a bye law somewhere requiring motorists to let buses pull out.

MagicMarker

Because it's a right pain in the nads stuck behind a bus stopped at a bus stop with clear road and a green light in front of it.

Iwannahurl

MagicMarker wrote: »

Because it's a right pain in the nads stuck behind a bus stopped at a bus stop with clear road and a green light in front of it.

There might be two nads in the car, whereas there could be eighty or more on the bus.

MagicMarker

Iwannahurl wrote: »

There might be two nads in the car, whereas there could be eighty or more on the bus.

Stop, you're gonna make me cry.

Iwannahurl

Were your eyes not already watering?

_Kaiser_

MagicMarker wrote: »

Because it's a right pain in the nads stuck behind a bus stopped at a bus stop with clear road and a green light in front of it.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

There might be two nads in the car, whereas there could be eighty or more on the bus.

MagicMarker wrote: »

Stop, you're gonna make me cry.

+1 .. as a general rule if the traffic is slow or if there's a red light ahead I'll let a bus out, but otherwise I'll overtake it. Buses are slow to move off/accelerate, and there's far too many bus stops along most routes and too close together (god forbid someone might have to walk another 200/300m!) that if you were to stop/let them out every time you'd never get to where you're going!

And before the "well if more people took the bus this wouldn't be as big an issue" argument starts, the buses in this country/Dublin are generally so slow and unreliable that if you have an alternative you take it! - unless of course you live in south Dublin where you have the LUAS, 46A, DART all to choose from ... contrast that to say Coolock or Finglas which is ironically where there'd be more demand for public transport (but then, those people don't run businesses and have money or vote in large numbers, so they don't count to our city planners)

But I digress... In any case, if the unions go ahead with this strike tomorrow I don't think issues like in that picture will be a problem (at least not in the capital)

corktina

MagicMarker wrote: »

Because it's a right pain in the nads stuck behind a bus stopped at a bus stop with clear road and a green light in front of it.

that bus would be back into the bus lane after the junction and not in your way at all

_Kaiser_

corktina wrote: »

that bus would be back into the bus lane after the junction and not in your way at all

Ah yes I forgot that point.. poor lane/junction design is another big issue..

Take that stretch of quays northbound by Heuston where the lanes are reduced for about 50m for no apparent reason?! (and which most ignore anyway by driving over the hatch markings). Ditto the pic above.. why not just have a continuous bus lane if it continues just beyond the lights

astrofool

I'll always try and let buses out when safe to do so, some drivers have a habit of indicating right at the very last second, or even after they start moving which doesn't leave much of a chance to let them out. Driving around Shankill, I always make a point to let the ambulances out at the depot, even if no lights flashing.

However, if it's one of the old smokers (common on Cornelscourt hill), I'll always try and get ahead of it.

corktina

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Ah yes I forgot that point.. poor lane/junction design is another big issue..

Take that stretch of quays northbound by Heuston where the lanes are reduced for about 50m for no apparent reason?! (and which most ignore anyway by driving over the hatch markings). Ditto the pic above.. why not just have a continuous bus lane if it continues just beyond the lights

"The bus lane ahead was closed off just before the junction, after some sort of hazard was identified by a road safety audit of the scheme."

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

In most cases I let them out, but it depends on the situation and the area.

The amount of ignorant asshats who use the yellow box is just unbelievable. It's really annoying.

MagicMarker

corktina wrote: »

that bus would be back into the bus lane after the junction and not in your way at all

I'm speaking in general, most roads don't have bus lanes.

bmaxi

Generally I would let buses pull out but I don't see what difference it would make having a law because nobody would enforce it. We have laws forbidding traffic in bus lanes, entering box junctions, stopping in clearways, stopping on motorways, parking in disabled bays, loading bays, etc. etc. etc. Does it make a difference? nary a bit, people do it because there's nobody to prevent them. I bet if you asked your local pretend policeman, that is if you could find one and it's not raining, what were the times of clearways or bus lanes on his/her beat, they wouldn't be able to tell you.

Ben D Bus

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

+1 .. as a general rule if the traffic is slow or if there's a red light ahead I'll let a bus out, but otherwise I'll overtake it. Buses are slow to move off/accelerate, and there's far too many bus stops along most routes and too close together (god forbid someone might have to walk another 200/300m!) that if you were to stop/let them out every time you'd never get to where you're going!

But this thread isn't about overtaking. By all means overtake a bus that's stopped at a bus stop.

But if it's trying to pull out then let it. You can overtake it at the next stop which as you point out is only 200/300m away No loss to you and a great help to the passengers on the bus.

Iwannahurl

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

...buses in this country/Dublin are generally so slow and unreliable that if you have an alternative you take it!

The bus service shown in post #3 is fairly reliable, afaiaa. In this instance it's being held up by selfish ignorant muppets looking out for their personal interests first.

By way of another example of the effects on public transport of such behaviour, the 2007 Galway Strategic Bus Study found that illegal parking is one of the main sources of delay for buses in the city.

I endeavour to leave buses and trucks out, whenever possible. In saying that, I see buses, quite often, muscling their way back into traffic. I'm pretty courteous to everyone on the road, bar taxis.

Vorophobe

Just for clarity - this is the sign on the back of most buses in Perth, Western Australia:



That means when they pull out, you must stop/slow down - the bus drivers there are very assertive and you run the risk of being sideswiped :P

OldmanMondeo

I find buses around here make there own right of way. Feck them I say. I am paying enough to enjoy my own space (in the car and not the road, I don't own the road, yet).

dowlingm

Vorophobe wrote: »

Just for clarity - this is the sign on the back of most buses in Perth, Western Australia

Here's the same idea in Toronto

_Kaiser_

They used to have that on Dublin Buses too in the days before all-over rear advertising:

SeanW

Iwannahurl wrote: »

There might be two nads in the car, whereas there could be eighty or more on the bus.

Are you suggesting that motorists should (be forced to) wait behind a bus while it is stopped, unloading and loading, at a bus stop?

SeanW

markpb wrote: »

I'm not sure I'd agree with either of you from a legal point of view. Pretend for a minute it's two vehicular lanes, would you argue that cars in the left lane should give way to cars in the right lane turning left? Of course not but some motorists seem to think that cyclists should.

In your example, vehicles in the left lane would be committing a crime, undertaking vehicles in the right hand lane. Vehicles in the right hand lane would also be in the wrong because they would be in the wrong lane for the turn they wish to make.

It is different for cyclists in that the presence of cycle lanes, cyclists (similar to buses) are basically exempt from the laws on undertaking that are theoretically very severe for motorists (to the point that if you have some idiot doing 60kph on the most right hand lane of the motorway, legally they cannot be undertaken, or "overtaken on the left"). Buses and cyclists using their specific lane types are totally exempt from such laws, and in the latter case it would not make any difference because laws applied to cyclists are entirely theoretical.

While it may indeed be proper than cyclists and buses have what are basically undertaking lanes, you are describing two different scenarios.

Hilly Bill

I'll let the bus filter out in turn. If im approaching the bus which has its indicators on ready to pull out then i'll let it out. If im already at the side of the bus then i'd expect the bus to wait for me to pass before it pulls out unless im in traffic and stopped and the bus can pull out safely in front of me without blocking anything. Its the same with cyclists, if im passing one and im intending to turn left then i'll slow down and wait for the cyclist to pass before i turn. Its just a bit of road etiquette .

markpb

SeanW wrote: »

Are you suggesting that motorists should (be forced to) wait behind a bus while it is stopped, unloading and loading, at a bus stop?

Even a quick glance will tell you that everyone is discussing the right-of-way of a bus *once it has started indicating out*. Don't let your problem with IWH stop you from actually reading the thread before replying.

SeanW

I read it very carefully; MagicMarker said:

Because it's a right pain in the nads stuck behind a bus stopped at a bus stop with clear road and a green light in front of it.

It was in response to this that Iwannahurl made his ... less than sympathetic remark. That's not news of course from certain quarters, and given that in the United Kingdom many regions prefer to have bus stops "built out" into the carriageway mainline*, discouraging things like bus bay lay-bys (which allow traffic to pass a bus while it is stopped) altogether, the question was reasonable.

* Transport For London explicity advocates having buses block the carriageway while loading and unloading
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/accessibile_bus_stop_design_guidance.pdf

* Translink explicity recommends against having a bus lay-by on any street with a speed limit of 30mph or less.
http://www.planningni.gov.uk/index/policy/supplementary_guidance/guides/busstop-designguide.pdf

* Edinborough City Council also clearly opposes having buses stop anywhere but in the way of other traffic in the carriageway, including suggestion that an obstructionist bus stop could itself be used a form of "traffic calming."
Quote from Page 30 (32 on the PDF)

11 In urban areas (like most of Edinburgh) traffic speeds
are, or should be, 30mph or less; rather than retaining a lay-by consideration should be given to speed controlling measures. Bus stops can themselves be used as a traffic calming measure in some circumstances.
12 Lay-bys may be retained only where services terminate

Emphasis mine.

dowlingm

SeanW wrote: »

Are you suggesting that motorists should (be forced to) wait behind a bus while it is stopped, unloading and loading, at a bus stop?

In Toronto the streetcars run in mixed traffic for the most part and in the centre of the road. They therefore unload their passengers onto the "inside" lane where there is no safety island. Cars (and bikes, though many of the fcukers don't) are meant to stop behind the open doors. Came close to getting slapped with a $300 fine not long after I arrived because I didn't have a proper appreciation of that rule under the nose of a cop!

School buses unloading kids have a fold-in/out stop sign with flashing lights when dropping off kids - all cars IN BOTH DIRECTIONS (on undivided roads) must heed that stop sign.

Iwannahurl

dowlingm wrote: »

In Toronto the streetcars run in mixed traffic for the most part and in the centre of the road. They therefore unload their passengers onto the "inside" lane where there is no safety island. Cars (and bikes, though many of the fcukers don't) are meant to stop behind the open doors. Came close to getting slapped with a $300 fine not long after I arrived because I didn't have a proper appreciation of that rule under the nose of a cop!

School buses unloading kids have a fold-in/out stop sign with flashing lights when dropping off kids - all cars IN BOTH DIRECTIONS (on undivided roads) must heed that stop sign.

Different jurisdictions will have different arrangements and laws. Not all will be perfect, and I guess there is scope for mutual learning. Perhaps there is no perfect solution -- they needed one-way streets to cope with the traffic in Herculaneum and Pompeii over 2000 years ago.

In Melbourne many of the tram stops outside the CBD dump passengers onto a narrow at-grade strip with just a metal rail separating you and your kids from two adjacent traffic lanes. Not fun. Newer stops are wider and higher, and were created by reallocating road space iirc.

In central Copenhagen bus passengers alight on the cycle path, and cyclists have to yield. The vast majority do, in my experience, but I believe cyclist/bus-passenger collisions increased hugely when this arrangement was first introduced.

The policy objective should be to prioritise the most space and energy efficient transport modes, imo, in terms of both legislaton and infrastructure.