CID changes

newfrontier

FIXED –TERM/ PART-TIME EMPLOYMENT IN TEACHING
An Expert Group will be established to consider and report on the level of fixed-term
and part-time employment in teaching, having regard to the importance for teachers of
employment stability and security and taking account of system and school needs and
Teaching Council registration requirements.
This group will as a first task report on reducing the qualification period for the
granting of a CID from 4 years to 3 years to take effect for the 2014/15 school year.
Arrangements will be made in relation to those entering their fourth year in
September 2013 with a view to the early application to them of this provision.

Anybody heard anything on this?

doc_17

Wasn't this part supposed to be part of Haddington Road? Since it hasn't yet been accepted by teachers I'd I give there has been no movement on this.

teach88

Yes, this is part of Haddington Road. Unfortunately, it is unlikely to get very far if HR ends up being rejected.

Would be fantastic if this particular issue was brought in anyway though!

2011abc

Oh God ,please tell me people arent going to vote for HR for THIS reason!Talk about penny wise and pound foolish...If HR goes through they can and will do whatever they like with us ...They already slashed the NQTs pay and then put it up a little to give some semblance of 'good cop' about them ...Next thing we know there will be no posts ,S&S or allowances OR JUNE!!!!!!!!!!!We're being utterly manipulated here.

rainbowtrout

Well the letter sent out by the ASTI the other day said they are meeting on August 15th (or some date around then) to consider Haddington Road. I'd imagine this group won't get up and running until they decide to reject HRA outright, ballot teachers etc.

teach88

2011abc wrote: »

Oh God ,please tell me people arent going to vote for HR for THIS reason!Talk about penny wise and pound foolish...If HR goes through they can and will do whatever they like with us ...They already slashed the NQTs pay and then put it up a little to give some semblance of 'good cop' about them ...Next thing we know there will be no posts ,S&S or allowances OR JUNE!!!!!!!!!!!We're being utterly manipulated here.

Speaking as a teacher without a CID and who has to go through the stressful hell that is the job hunt process every summer and who, at this moment in time, doesn't even know where he will be teaching on Aug 26th of indeed if he will be teaching at all, I really couldn't care less about S&S or June.

whiteandlight

teach88 wrote: »

Speaking as a teacher without a CID and who has to go through the stressful hell that is the job hunt process every summer and who, at this moment in time, doesn't even know where he will be teaching on Aug 26th of indeed if he will be teaching at all, I really couldn't care less about S&S or June.

Not to put too fine a point on it you should care about the terms and conditions of the sector.

However apart from that please read the wording of that section carefully. There is nothing, I repeat nothing, that says they will do anything about CIDs. All it says is that they will report on it. We accept Haddington road they will in all likelihood report that the situation is fine.

I'm not a permanent or CID teacher and as soon as I read the wording of this I realised it was an attempt to coerce us into a deal without any promise of improvemrnt

vamos!

teach88 wrote: »

Speaking as a teacher without a CID and who has to go through the stressful hell that is the job hunt process every summer and who, at this moment in time, doesn't even know where he will be teaching on Aug 26th of indeed if he will be teaching at all, I really couldn't care less about S&S or June.

I am in the same boat and if your username features the year you were born in, I am longer on the soul-destroying 'own hours' hunt. You will find something for August and hopefully you will eventually get a break and find RPT hours leading to a CID. Your situation is very likely to change for the better. If you vote yes for HRA because of this clause (when there are no details as to when or how such a panel might be implemented and how effective it might be) our terms and conditions will never change for the better. You will be voting for a very short-sighted sweetner which I can't imagine actually being all that sweet.

Seanchai

teach88 wrote: »

Speaking as a teacher without a CID and who has to go through the stressful hell that is the job hunt process every summer and who, at this moment in time, doesn't even know where he will be teaching on Aug 26th of indeed if he will be teaching at all, I really couldn't care less about S&S or June.

This is incredibly naive and myopic. Aside from everything else, if a school keeps you on for three years, it's most likely it thinks you're fine and they'll keep you on for the fourth year. Once they change conditions of teaching it will be all but impossible to get them back. It's already a joke of a profession the way teachers are expected to make a career on part-time hours and the way universities have no restrictions on their intake of trainee teachers while thousands of Irish teachers remain in part-time hours, unemployed or forced to emigrate.

Oh, and if you really don't care about June perhaps your value system would be more suited to being a teacher in England where teaching has for a long time been regarded as a yellow-pack profession.

Inspector Coptoor

Amen to the views setting teach88 straight.

You really can't allow yourself to become so selfish & shirt sighted.

I know it's hard, I've been around the block for 7 years now & finally Im seeing light at the end of the tunnel.

Hang in there, don't let the profession become even further denigrated

teacherhead

It also worth noting that the protection of employees (fixed term workers act) came about as a direct result of EU law being transposed into Irish law. It is this act and the European law that makes 4 years the basis for awarding a CID.

I would expect that we will be told something like 'it would create a dangerous precedent or 'it would be disadvantagous to workers in other sectors and therefore unfair'


HRA = PROMISES PROMISES PROMISES

All take no give. Bend over teachers, you're about to get shafted.

fairypants

Teach88 I totally get where you are coming from being in the same situation myself.
If I thought that the CID that would be issued would be reasonable hours, 15+ I may even be tempted by the carrot but I think that the CID issued will be for really low hours like 4 and then every year we would still be dependent on the mercy of management to supplement that with part time hours that for whatever obscure reason dont qualify for our CID's
Taking into account, that the S+S changes would totally remove the potential to take cover classes, it would really impact on our wages, conditions and more importantly future conditions.

I completely empathise with you with the insecurity of the profession, I am getting to the stage and age in my life where I would love to start a family which is difficult as a female teacher with no job security and confusing maternity entitlements. Try and stay positive, I personally think HRA would ruin the profession completely.

2011abc

fairypants wrote: »

If I thought that the CID that would be issued would be reasonable hours, 15+ I may even be tempted by the carrot but I think that the CID issued will be for really low hours like 4 and then every year we would still be dependent on the mercy of management to supplement that with part time hours that for whatever obscure reason dont qualify for our CID's
Taking into account, that the S+S changes would totally remove the potential to take cover classes, it would really impact on our wages, conditions and more importantly future conditions.

I completely empathise with you with the insecurity of the profession

'They' ie principals , BOMs and especially the Dept clearly want servile teachers who will accept whatever cr8p they shovel our way .They don't care once they save money to send to their banker friends. In the UK now a senior educational figure has stated the days of having a teacher in every classroom are outdated . Teachers sometimes act as coordinators for several even more poorly paid teaching assistants .Schools over there find themselves privatised (Academies) overnight with teachers contracts torn up . Those who run down our educational , healthcare etc systems will be the ones who can afford expensive private options . I am heartened to see a bit of 'fight' in secondary teachers of late .Hopefully it augurs well for the future .

teach88

So I express my view based on my current situation and I am called "incredibly naive", "selfish", "myopic"/"short-sighted" and even advised to emigrate to England with my so-called "value system".

Everybody is entitled to an opinion and it is perfectly acceptable for me to place having a job higher on my list of priorities than any of the conditions of the job such as S&S.

Thanks to Musicmental85, vamos!, teacherhead and fairypants for not resorting to belittling in your posts. All very good points.

whiteandlight

Everyone is understandably concerned that haddington road will be pushed through by hell or high water and tensions are running high due to a lack of information.

As I said, the wording of that clause is way too vague to be an encouragement for a vote.

Inspector Coptoor

You are entitled to your opinion, we're just pointing out reasons why you should reconsider your opinion.

You weren't belittled by anyone in my opinion, just told the real facts if the situation

Miss Lockhart

I honestly cannot see how anyone could think that clause offers any hope to teachers without security.

Firstly, as Musicmental says, the wording is suspiciously vague. Then there is the fact that employers who split hours and suddenly find objective grounds to avoid giving CID after 4 years will simply do so after 3 years now.

And really, how worthwhile is a CID for low hours anyway, given this is all most teachers will secure? You then end up trapped - still spending your summer not knowing where you stand, still financially insecure, but now moving involves the tough decision to give up the small bit of security you have gained.

And if that part time CID comes at the expense of the proposed S&S changes then you really will be trapped, unable to supplement your part time income.

I think it's quite obvious this clause is a cheap, meaningless ploy. And tbh, I do think anyone who would consider it a worthwhile reason for accepting HRA is naive and short sighted.

teach88

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I think it's quite obvious this clause is a cheap, meaningless ploy. And tbh, I do think anyone who would consider it a worthwhile reason for accepting HRA is naive and short sighted.

Having looked into it in more detail and having read the less derisive replies here, I tend to agree.

However, I think there is an unhealthy lack of openness coming into the whole matter these days. I have noticed it in my previous school and communications with certain other teachers. Anyone who suggests that something might be a good thing (whether rightly or wrongly) is lambasted. Rational heads should prevail in these matters.

whiteandlight

teach88 wrote: »

Having looked into it in more detail and having read the less derisive replies here, I tend to agree.

However, I think there is an unhealthy lack of openness coming into the whole matter these days. I have noticed it in my previous school and communications with certain other teachers. Anyone who suggests that something might be a good thing (whether rightly or wrongly) is lambasted. Rational heads should prevail in these matters.

In their defence schools have been continually mislead/lied to for several years now.

-Project maths is awesome/project maths is coming whether you like it or not and we won't change anything.
-New JC will be a great chance for teachers and students to develop wider skills/complete lack of information or syllabi and unpaid correction of JC exams.
-Special needs inclusion is the aim of the department and fundings and sna's will be provided/continual reduction in sna's and support despite larger numbers of students in the system.

The list goes on and on. There is very little that has been introduced into schools that I can say have worked as promised and continued to have great support

rainbowtrout

teach88 wrote: »

Everybody is entitled to an opinion and it is perfectly acceptable for me to place having a job higher on my list of priorities than any of the conditions of the job such as S&S.

.

No one is belittling you. Most posters have been teaching for some time and are speaking from experience. We've had pay cuts, pension levy, 33 extra croke park hours per year for free, removal of the allocation for guidance counsellors, and an increase in pupil teacher ratio. New teachers started on the first point of the scale and lost their allowances and are on less pay. The only thing we were guaranteed is that our pay could not be cut until the end of the croke park agreement if we agreed to a variety of conditions.

Because we haven't agreed to Haddington road pay was cut for a cohort of teachers in July, therefore breaking the croke park agreement.

If a principal thinks you're good they will keep you, it won't make a blind bit of difference if CIDs are offered after 3 or 4 years. CIDs after three years haven't been guaranteed under this agreement.

As for S&S : well are you willing to do overtime in another job for free? Because that's what it is, and subbing hours provides work for teachers trying to get work at present. If you are on part time hours next year you might be glad of the extra income that S&S provides.

teach88

Seanchai wrote: »

Oh, and if you really don't care about June perhaps your value system would be more suited to being a teacher in England where teaching has for a long time been regarded as a yellow-pack profession.

I find this somewhat belittling and not particularly useful or informative.

Anyway, I agree with all your points rainbowtrout. I am one of those teachers on a lower payscale. I don't need to be convinced that teachers have given enough.

But I am also a rational and very fearful of what we could be leaving ourselves open to should we reject HRA. And I stand by the view that I could do without S&S if it meant some genuine job security.

rainbowtrout

teach88 wrote: »

I find this somewhat belittling and not particularly useful or informative.

Anyway, I agree with all your points rainbowtrout. I am one of those teachers on a lower payscale. I don't need to be convinced that teachers have given enough.

But I am also a rational and very fearful of what we could be leaving ourselves open to should we reject HRA. And I stand by the view that I could do without S&S if it meant some genuine job security.

HRA won't provide any job security. There's nothing in it to provide it. We already rejected HRA and the result is 3 year freeze on increments and cuts to pay for those on the upper end of scale. Job security is ultimately dictated by how many hours your principal is willing to give you.

teacherhead

With regard to the increment freeze we cannot be sure that it will be limited to 3 years.

We have already seen that these agreements are worth very little when the government changes their minds.

Towards 2016 (we're not there yet) promised pay increases which were not delivered. Benchmarking II gave no pay rise as our pension was taken into account - this has sincebsen savaged.
Croke Park - no pay cuts and no redundancies. Ended s year early and paycuts imposed for teachers.
Haddington Road Agreement - promises nothing but will take everything.

You font need to be an old timer to remember any of this. I'm only around ten years and it has all happened in my time.

whiteandlight

But as a part time teacher surely you are aware that by voting for no pay for s and s you are voting for even less job security? If every teacher is doing s and s for free and at the new increased number of hours then there will be little/no substitution hours for you to pick up while on no contract/short hour contract?

newfrontier

Another clever move to divide and conquer. I think the views reflected here show the discussions which will take place over the next few weeks.

joebloggs32

teach88 wrote: »

Speaking as a teacher without a CID and who has to go through the stressful hell that is the job hunt process every summer and who, at this moment in time, doesn't even know where he will be teaching on Aug 26th of indeed if he will be teaching at all, I really couldn't care less about S&S or June.

You need to look at the long term consequences of decisions taken. I assume you are in your mid 20's if you are starting out. If you intend to make a career out if teaching you are looking at 40 years of service ahead of you. Are you happy to give away conditions of service for short term gain. Working for June for 40 years would in effect add over 4 more school years to working life.
I am mid 30's and like you spent the best part of 5 years on the part time circuit so I know what it is like. However I still have 30 years to go if I stick at it and i would not like to see our conditions of work eroded away. I feel that what is proposed in the HRA would only be a once off benefit for people in year 3 with regard to CID's, as schools would then revert to messing people around again on fixed term contracts after their second year.

ahahah

Absolutely untrue!!

evolving_doors

ahahah wrote: »

Absolutely untrue!!

Care to expand? That was usually Dick Roche's favourite response when questioned on anything.

Anyhow, my two cent is that a CID after 2, 3, 4, 5 or six years is not the solution. The solution is just give the person the bloody job they deserve. Schools/management will do what they need to do regardless of CID . This 3 year thing is pure tokenism. I can understand peoples anxiety if they are coming close to a CID but really the school will do what it was probably going to do anyway. Funny thing is that now you might only see yourself working for 3 years in a position as opposed to 4.Horay for HR...

Did I jump for joy when I got my CID , shouting "huzzah Ive been made indefinite in my job today"? Sure I felt more secure but don't forget any organisation can find 'reasonable grounds' for disolving a post. Then if some other joe comes in and takes your hours it's up to you to get him sacked. Plus the fact that Ill probably have to wait years for real permanency while im still playing the 18 hours cat and mouse game

2011abc

You beat me to it Armelodie.None of it was untrue !Whats your angle ahahah?

doc_17

A CID after 3 years will lead to the same problems as one after 4. Half hours etc.

There is a bigger at stake with the HRA.

Chocoteach

Has anyone looked at what happens if The Haddington Road Agreement is not passed for teachers -it's grim and I would advise people to read the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act before they decide whether to accept or reject the Haddington Road Agreement.

Inspector Coptoor

It'll be even grimmer if it's accepted as it gives Ruairí carte blanche to do whatever the hell he wants.

No more.
Enough is enough.

No to HRA

Chocoteach

Really?? Maybe you have read a different Financial Emergency Measure Act than the one I read if you don't think it's grim

Miss Lockhart

But there's nothing to stop the government implementing FEMPI measures anyway, agreement or no agreement. Contracts and agreements are no longer worth the paper they're written on. All they seem to do is stop us engaging in industrial action.

Chocoteach

no side be it the government or the trade unions want industrial action that's why it's an action of last resort. I am making the point that everyone needs to read up on it for themselves what the consequences are of rejecting or accepting this agreement. This is the final agreement so people need to be aware of this if they reject and go on strike without the full education sector on board as the INTO has accepted the deal.

TheDriver

Chocoteach wrote: »

This is the final agreement .

once this agreement is in, they will back with another "agreement" which will ultimately see our pay and conditions worsen.
I think Dublin bus has set a good tone for us unlike the primary teachers and nurses where Sheila and Liam have got into the good books for the next stage of their career.

Chocoteach

It is the final agreement for the time being and if we reject people need to realise there will be harsher pay cuts, pension cuts, potentially be a lot of teachers cid, permanent or part timers made redundant so the grass is not always greener on the other side. People also need to be prepared to strike for more than a day or two and are ok with not getting paid properly for the amount of time they are on strike.

Inspector Coptoor

"For the time being".....


Come on now Ruairi, G'way out of that.

Stop trolling

2011abc

Chocoteach is a new user with 4 posts all warning us to roll over and accept HRA .I wouldnt be surprised if it was one of those 'special advisors' to Ruairi Quinn who made such a show of themselves on that infamous RTE documentary !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpxehghbe44

Even if you are a teacher Choco , Im amazed you're here posting thus .The very first consequence of the HRA is to force all teachers to do free S+S with the result part time NQTs hours are obliterated .

Chocoteach

Its all well and good saying you are not prepared to roll over and accept the agreement but are you prepared to get your pay and pension slashed a lot more than other public servants and take the more severe cuts now rather than later if there will be more agreements down the line. Sounds a but daft to me if thats the way you want to go!!

happywithlife

Teach88
I am out a good number of years as well and also flit between pillar and post every summer. I have a mortgage, 2 kids and no job security. I joined the union last year to specifically vote no to cp or Haddington rd or whatever else they may want to call it.
I am not for a minute fooled by any of their sweeteners. I don't want a CID on crappy hrs after 3 yrs. I want a job with better prospects than that. We studied for several yrs in college. We graduated with honours. We have, and will continue to slog our guts out for our students. We deserve a chance at obtaining a job that allows us to settle into a school, build relationships and do the very best we can for our students. But Haddington rd won't give us that.
And we should be worried - very worried - by the erosion of S&S, the abolition of the junior cert, etc. it will be detrimental to the teaching profession 😒

evolving_doors

Chocoteach wrote: »

Its all well and good saying you are not prepared to roll over and accept the agreement but are you prepared to get your pay and pension slashed a lot more than other public servants and take the more severe cuts now rather than later if there will be more agreements down the line. Sounds a but daft to me if thats the way you want to go!!

Well that sounds like a threat to me..I bet you dont hear any bus drivers talking like that at the mo. AND to my knowledge they havn't taken any pay cuts yet!

Look, a CID after 2, 3, 4 or whatever years is a moot point. If you are still in a school in 3 years the chances are they will keep you on some way or another, our if they want to leave you go then they will...a three year CID will just hasten this (why would you vote for that?)
The more I think about it this CID business is an outright insult to any profession..... Horray I've been made indefinite!! What the hell is that all about, if you are worthy of a job in line with your permanent colleagues then make it permanent...do CIDs happen for doctors, nurses, bus drivers...the hell they do.

HR CID is just tokenistic crumbs from the table to enable the high and mighty (on both sides of negotiations) claim they are working hard for junior teachers... It still means that teaching is being accepted as a part time profession.

2011abc

Chocoteach wrote: »

Its all well and good saying you are not prepared to roll over and accept the agreement but are you prepared to get your pay and pension slashed a lot more than other public servants and take the more severe cuts now rather than later if there will be more agreements down the line. Sounds a but daft to me if thats the way you want to go!!

You sound even more like youre typing from Ruairi's office there now!Got that blend of arrogance down to a tee !

rainbowtrout

Chocoteach wrote: »

Its all well and good saying you are not prepared to roll over and accept the agreement but are you prepared to get your pay and pension slashed a lot more than other public servants and take the more severe cuts now rather than later if there will be more agreements down the line. Sounds a but daft to me if thats the way you want to go!!

Damn, Ruairi must be pretty desperate to get us to accept HRA.

Only signed up for boards today Chocoteach and your 5 posts are telling us all that we are making a big mistake for not accepting HRA. I'd prefer to see my pay cut than my working conditions continually eroded.

Tell us, what has you working so late on a Sunday night for RQ? Because I don't believe any sane teacher would sign up to a message board like this and start so blatantly pushing an agenda without so much as suggesting they are actively teaching.

2011abc

Oh dear Chocoteach closed their account ... Well that was the least subtle governmental intervention I've seen in some time ...Funny though!

teach88

2011abc wrote: »

Chocoteach is a new user with 4 posts all warning us to roll over and accept HRA .I wouldnt be surprised if it was one of those 'special advisors' to Ruairi Quinn who made such a show of themselves on that infamous RTE documentary !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpxehghbe44

Even if you are a teacher Choco , Im amazed you're here posting thus .The very first consequence of the HRA is to force all teachers to do free S+S with the result part time NQTs hours are obliterated .

He is entitled to an opinion, irrespective of how many posts he has. I referred to this overly aggressive attitude towards people with minority views earlier in this thread. It does not reflect well on anyone.

teach88

happywithlife wrote: »

We have, and will continue to slog our guts out for our students. We deserve a chance at obtaining a job that allows us to settle into a school, build relationships and do the very best we can for our students. But Haddington rd won't give us that.
😒

Well said. I agree. It helps to put things in perspective from time to time. Thanks.

rainbowtrout

teach88 wrote: »

He is entitled to an opinion, irrespective of how many posts he has. I referred to this overly aggressive attitude towards people with minority views earlier in this thread. It does not reflect well on anyone.

Minority views are not an issue. Chocoteach registered specifically to post on this thread, told us that we needed to read the bill and that we had to vote yes to HRA.

No real reason why, other than that's the way it has to be. No declaration that he/she is a teacher. No reason why he would see it in his bests interests.

You yourself posted last week saying that you wanted better job security, CID etc in the other thread on this topic. You were giving a reason why it would be in your interests. Chocoteach provides no reason why he was repeating the mantra of 'Vote yes to HRA otherwise you are doomed'

I'd put good money on that IP address originating in an office that is less than sympathetic to teachers right now. If he was a genuine teacher he probably would have argued the case, just like you argued yours.

I also have yet to come across a teacher who is referring to this deal as 'Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act'. It's HRA or Croke Park 2. That and the scaremongering about permanent and CID teachers being made redundant is just crap. Students will always exist. They can screw with our pay, pension, pupil teacher ratio etc, but students have to be taught and that requires the employment of teachers.

2011abc

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'd put good money on that IP address originating in an office that is less than sympathetic to teachers right now.

I was going to post exactly the same . The purile and petty nature of some of the staff in Dept of Ed HQ beggars belief . This is exactly their' style ' .Anybody who thinks otherwise really needs to watch that " Inside the Dept of Ed " documentary .You would think they employ staff to bolster the education system . No! They are there to get their political overlords re elected .

Miss Lockhart

rainbowtrout wrote:

I also have yet to come across a teacher who is referring to this deal as 'Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act'. It's HRA or Croke Park 2.

Tbf, FEMPI is legislation that is separate to HRA.

rainbowtrout

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Tbf, FEMPI is legislation that is separate to HRA.

I know that's what I mean. If chocoteach was a teacher he would have more than likely referred to the HRA not asking us rather condescendingly if we had read FEMPI and did we not know what we were doing