The Pat Kenny Show

2smiggy

Cole wrote: »

There might be nothing in it (Irish Market Research Agency), but it does seem like it could be a SF in-joke.

well at least the did not just go for Irish Research Agency :pac:

zerosugarbuzz

piplip87 wrote: »

Jaysus Pat really takes them apart. Before the Shinners start screaming media bias, he takes everybody apart the same no matter what party.

In that case I look forward to him taking a member of FG apart tomorrow morning considering they admitted to doing exactly the same thing. I'll listen in for it but wont be holding my breath mind.

whisky_galore

2smiggy wrote: »

well at least the did not just go for Irish Research Agency :pac:

Love it. Couldn't make it up.

Felt bad (well, not really) for SF guy getting torn to shreds. Couldn't even come up with a half plausible explanation.
However bad the current FFGreen pick n mix is hopefully people wont be hoodwinked into voting for sf en masse. We would end up like the sh1tty weather version of Cuba.

padd b1975

whisky_galore wrote: »

Love it. Couldn't make it up.

Felt bad (well, not really) for SF guy getting torn to shreds. Couldn't even come up with a half plausible explanation.
However bad the current FFGreen pick n mix is hopefully people wont be hoodwinked into voting for sf en masse. We would end up like the sh1tty weather version of Cuba.

He reminded me of the time Flanagan tied himself up in knots trying to explain to Vincent Browne how he got his penalty points quashed.

He really was that bad.

I lost track of the amount of times he used the phrase "informal polling", real gombeen stuff.

I see sheep

Looking forward to Pat ripping into FF and FG today on the fake polling story.

meeeeh

I see sheep wrote: »

Looking forward to Pat ripping into FF and FG today on the fake polling story.

I find it baffling how they got away with it. I don't know what procedure other parties used but if fake id's and similar deceptions were used then it's extremely worrying and completely unacceptable.

Fann Linn

Pat got his knickers in a knot yesterday alright. Wonder will there be a toning down in how he addresses the present Govt parties doing the very same thing prior to the Shinners.

EmmetSpiceland

I see sheep wrote: »

Looking forward to Pat ripping into FF and FG today on the fake polling story.

Coming up next!

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

I find it baffling how they got away with it. I don't know what procedure other parties used but if fake id's and similar deceptions were used then it's extremely worrying and completely unacceptable.

I find it baffling how it's a serious news story at all. Slow week, I suppose.

Do people think the polling agencies are upstanding national institutions run by pholosophers and doctors of the law, and not staffed by call-centre workers on a shoestring budget, charging an arm and a leg?

I can see why 'internal polling' is a thing. Probably quite effective in local elections, not so much nationally. I really don't care if SF, or FG or anyone else does it, as long as the information is given freely and not passed to other organisations.

Klonker

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I find it baffling how it's a serious news story at all. Slow week, I suppose.

Do people think the polling agencies are upstanding national institutions run by pholosophers and doctors of the law, and not staffed by call-centre workers on a shoestring budget, charging an arm and a leg?

I can see why 'internal polling' is a thing. Probably quite effective in local elections, not so much nationally. I really don't care if SF, or FG or anyone else does it, as long as the information is given freely and not passed to other organisations.

I'm not really baffled it's a big story this week, I'm more baffled that parties thought this was ok to do.

They sent pollers from within their parties and lied about who they were to get information. If a normal company did something like that it would be bad but from political parties it's even worse again. It may not be illegal but its definitely unethical.

2smiggy

ya I found it a bit of a non story as well really

I'm just surprised the sinners went to the bother of making up fake badges etc for it

elperello

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I find it baffling how it's a serious news story at all. Slow week, I suppose.

Do people think the polling agencies are upstanding national institutions run by pholosophers and doctors of the law, and not staffed by call-centre workers on a shoestring budget, charging an arm and a leg?

I can see why 'internal polling' is a thing. Probably quite effective in local elections, not so much nationally. I really don't care if SF, or FG or anyone else does it, as long as the information is given freely and not passed to other organisations.

On the far end of the scale from you I can't understand how people are not more exercised about this.

Representatives of political parties were going around to peoples houses and lying through their teeth to get information which was useful to their parties.

On the question of what happened to the data, how can we trust the reassurances of the self confessed liars?

Fann Linn

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I find it baffling how it's a serious news story at all. Slow week, I suppose.

Do people think the polling agencies are upstanding national institutions run by pholosophers and doctors of the law, and not staffed by call-centre workers on a shoestring budget, charging an arm and a leg?

I can see why 'internal polling' is a thing. Probably quite effective in local elections, not so much nationally. I really don't care if SF, or FG or anyone else does it, as long as the information is given freely and not passed to other organisations.

It's a story because they thought it was only SF. Then we had the idiocy of Harris on NT yesterday describing it as bizarre and sinister while at the same time on RTE we had Varadkar stuttering and admitting that FG did it also. In fairness to them however at least they didn't deny it happened to Philip Ryan as the Greens and FF did.

zerosugarbuzz

Klonker wrote: »

I'm not really baffled it's a big story this week, I'm more baffled that parties thought this was ok to do.

They sent pollers from within their parties and lied about who they were to get information. If a normal company did something like that it would be bad but from political parties it's even worse again. It may not be illegal but its definitely unethical.

I agree, you certainly wouldn't have any more trust in politicians after hearing this. I personally would just decline to answer anyone coming to my door and asking for my voting intentions, why would anyone engage with these people no matter who they are.

meeeeh

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I find it baffling how it's a serious news story at all. Slow week, I suppose.

Do people think the polling agencies are upstanding national institutions run by pholosophers and doctors of the law, and not staffed by call-centre workers on a shoestring budget, charging an arm and a leg?

I can see why 'internal polling' is a thing. Probably quite effective in local elections, not so much nationally. I really don't care if SF, or FG or anyone else does it, as long as the information is given freely and not passed to other organisations.

I don't care how much they are paid however you can bet that someone who has no skin in the game will more likely protect your anonymity. Do you really believe the parties didn't not who is going to vote for who. If they got that under pretense it's very much an issue.

meeeeh

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

I agree, you certainly wouldn't have any more trust in politicians after hearing this. I personally would just decline to answer anyone coming to my door and asking for my voting intentions, why would anyone engage with these people no matter who they are.

Those who do should know that the person who is doing questioning is who they say they are. Anonymity is what polling is based on I really don't get it how that's not an issue. You have right to cast an anonymous vote in elections, parties gaining information about your intentions with deception is very much an issue.

I can see how that wouldn't bother SF voter but it should bother anyone who believes in democracy.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't care how much they are paid however you can bet that someone who has no skin in the game will more likely protect your anonymity. Do you really believe the parties didn't not who is going to vote for who. If they got that under pretense it's very much an issue.

Just to be clear, there is no question of any of the parties asking people their names or gathering named data. This is no different to what a regular polling agency would do, except it costs next-to-nothing.

There is no material difference between a polling company being paid to conduct polling, and giving all of the data directly to the political parties vs. political parties doing it off their own bat.

It's not like pollsters are regulated like the professions. Anyone can, and does, call themselves a polling agent. The public have no particular reasons to trust professional pollsters. The same privacy requirements apply to everyone who holds/ controls data.

elperello

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Just to be clear, there is no question of any of the parties asking people their names or gathering named data. This is no different to what a regular polling agency would do, except it costs next-to-nothing.

There is no material difference between a polling company being paid to conduct polling, and giving all of the data directly to the political parties vs. political parties doing it off their own bat.

It's not like pollsters are regulated like the professions. Anyone can, and does, call themselves a polling agent. The public have no particular reasons to trust professional pollsters. The same privacy requirements apply to everyone who holds/ controls data.

There is a fundamental difference.

The person working for a polling company will tell you they work for a polling company ie. the truth.

The member of the political party will tell you they work for a polling company ie. a lie.

I have a serious problem with anyone standing on my doorstep misrepresenting themselves and lying to me.

elperello

elperello wrote: »

I have a serious problem with anyone standing on my doorstep misrepresenting themselves and lying to me.

So you'd be fine if the polling agency came to your door and said "I'm from Red C", even if they omitted to mention that they're working for a political party?

Because that happens too, and I just don't see how it is different in a material way.

Thousands of people in this country have been polled by political parties, assuming the agencies were doing it 'independently', whereas the data is then handed to the political parties. And guess what, that's not a scandal.

It's just been a slow news week.

This is a poor man's Cambridge Analytica if ever I saw one.

meeeeh

This article provides good enough explanation what the issue is and what information proper polling complaints have to provide.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/amp/ireland/it-doesnt-do-us-any-favours-pollster-distrust-could-grow-in-wake-of-political-party-posing-1139863.html

I never worked in the field bit it was something I studied and some of my friends worked as pollsters. What parties were doing was completely unethical and just plain wrong. Usually you are told who the poll is for or at least given general indication, you also get contact details and similar.

Pelvis Parsley

Well it's indicative of a wider mindset among the political class isn't it?

They're quite at ease with lying to us.

I am no fan of SF, in fact I'm quite the opposite, but the flak they're getting for this is hypocritical-every political party with the wherewithal to indulge in this stealth surveying was at it as well.

elperello

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

So you'd be fine if the polling agency came to your door and said "I'm from Red C", even if they omitted to mention that they're working for a political party?

Because that happens too, and I just don't see how it is different in a material way.

Thousands of people in this country have been polled by political parties, assuming the agencies were doing it 'independently', whereas the data is then handed to the political parties. And guess what, that's not a scandal.

It's just been a slow news week.

This is a poor man's Cambridge Analytica if ever I saw one.

If Red C arrives at my front door and identify themselves, first off I know who I'm talking to. Secondly I have the option of engaging with them and asking who they are under contract to. If I have any follow up concerns re. data I can contact Red C.

If it is a party worker pretending to be from a polling company I am being lied to.

It's up to you if you have decided that political parties engaging in deception of the electorate to further their own ends is fine.

At the end of the day it's your decision.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

This article provides good enough explanation what the issue is and what information proper polling complaints have to provide.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/amp/ireland/it-doesnt-do-us-any-favours-pollster-distrust-could-grow-in-wake-of-political-party-posing-1139863.html

So, from your link, AMIRO "accredits" the Irish polling agencies?

The Association of Irish Market Research Organisations doesn't appear to have a registered address on their website. I have found a registered address for them elsewhere, e.g. on the global site for the ESOMAR agency, of which the AMIRO is a member. (see bold)

https://www.esomar.org/community/join-esomar/association-search?idasso=20
AIMRO c/o RED C Research Ltd
Ground Floor, Block G, Eastpoint Business Park
Alfie Byrne Road
Dublin 3 D03 H2N1

The address for RED C is:
https://redcresearch.ie/about-red-c-research/contact-details/
RED C Research & Marketing Ltd,
Ground Floor, Block G,
East Point Business Park,
Clontarf,

Why does the "accreditation" agency appear to share an office with RED C?

The wesbite that relates to the email domain that is given by AMIRO, "quotasearch.ie", does not seem to exist.

I can't find a listing for them in company registration, or elsewhere, but that in itself is pretty meaningless.

So who is accrediting these polling companies?

Please don't say anything potentially defamatory here, we have to assume that AMIRO is an independent organisation. I'm sure they are very upstanding.

If it is the case that they are sharing an address with RED C, I think that is at least worth observing.

In a week where political parties have been excoriated for simply doing polling, it is worth asking how well-regulated are the polling agencies themselves.

meeeeh

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

So, from your link, AMIRO "accredits" the Irish polling agencies?

The Association of Irish Market Research Organisations doesn't appear to have a registered address on their website. I have found a registered address for them elsewhere, e.g. on the global site for the ESOMAR agency, of which the AMIRO is a member. (see bold)

https://www.esomar.org/community/join-esomar/association-search?idasso=20
AIMRO c/o RED C Research Ltd
Ground Floor, Block G, Eastpoint Business Park
Alfie Byrne Road
Dublin 3 D03 H2N1

The address for RED C is:
https://redcresearch.ie/about-red-c-research/contact-details/
RED C Research & Marketing Ltd,
Ground Floor, Block G,
East Point Business Park,
Clontarf,

Why does the "accreditation" agency appear to share an office with RED C?

The wesbite that relates to the email domain that is given by AMIRO, "quotasearch.ie", does not seem to exist.

I can't find a listing for them in company registration, or elsewhere, but that in itself is pretty meaningless.

So who is accrediting these polling companies?

Please don't say anything potentially defamatory here, we have to assume that AMIRO is an independent organisation. I'm sure they are very upstanding.

If it is the case that they are sharing an address with RED C, I think that is at least worth observing.

In a week where political parties have been excoriated for simply doing polling, it is worth asking how well-regulated are the polling agencies themselves.

Those are trade organisations making sure their working is not affected by charlatans pretending to be proper polling organisation. There might be rouge practices in the industry (I don't know), however that doesn't change what political parties did.

Can business employ couple of students to pretend they are IMRA and approach their competitors telling them they are doing anonymous research about their planned investment? Or a group of criminals posing as pollsters asking people what alarms and other safety measures they have in their home? It's just a poll.

There is more sinister part. Elections are anonymous for a reason so people vote without any external pressure. How anyone would excuse political parties collecting information with deception is beyond me. However you can go on the rant about polling agencies without much more evidence of their wrong doing than address they use to deflect from actual issue. Their business is accurately predicting results and longevity of that is the reason they demand certain standards, political parties are in the business of getting into power. They don't care how hard it will be for polling agencies to collect accurate information after the trust in polling is lost.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

Those are trade organisations making sure their working is not affected by charlatans pretending to be proper polling organisation.

A trade organisation is not a regulator. It is an association who, by definition, wants to promote their members.

Is there a trade organisation in the world who wouldn't kick up a fuss if their members were seen as disposable? I should hope not, because that's what a good trade organisation does.

I just have questions about AMIRO offering "accreditation" whilst accrediting one of the organisations with whom they might share an address.

Can business employ couple of students to pretend they are IMRA

Polling is routinely carried out by students. The people who ask you questions about your voting intentions, whether they are for RED C or not, are not statisticians.

I'm simply struggling to understand why we should be less concerned about a non-regulated polling agency who hands their data to an unknown political party, vs that party doing the polling themselves. It seems to me to be splitting hairs.

EmmetSpiceland

meeeeh

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm simply struggling to understand why we should be less concerned about a non-regulated polling agency who hands their data to an unknown political party, vs that party doing the polling themselves. It seems to me to be splitting hairs.

Because the parties lied. Unless you have some evidence polling companies got their answers by deceiving people that is the simple answer. If you think there is no difference then why pretend? They could simply say they are from xy party doing their polling. You know the answers would be different..

BTW I know polling companies use students, that's not an issue. My point is that you can use third person (student, agency workers etc) to extract information people wouldn't give if they knew who is the actual recipient of the information.

It wasnt me123

I can’t believe that people are so thick as to answer personal questions on their doorsteps to strangers. I don’t care which political party it is, if any, keep your personal information to yourself and stop giving strangers a way of distributing (if they wanted to) your information.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

Because the parties lied. Unless you have some evidence polling companies got their answers by deceiving people that is the simple answer.

I'm not going to assume anything about the polling companies.

When RED C, or any unregulated agency, was conducting polls for political parties, did it announce the identity of the parties who were going to receive the data? I don't know. I don't think it matters.

I think this person said it best

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

I can’t believe that people are so thick as to answer personal questions on their doorsteps to strangers. I don’t care which political party it is, if any, keep your personal information to yourself and stop giving strangers a way of distributing (if they wanted to) your information.

EmmetSpiceland

Probably don’t need to buy the book now.