Going from beef to dairy

farmers101

Any ideas lads is it a good idea to go from beef farming - dairy farming?

What are the costs involved to set up and also annually costs? Profit?

Would the best idea getting into diary be to buy fr & jex heifer calves and rear them?

49801

Talking to someone has done this recently.
He figured you would want 250-300k to spend on parlour and infrastructure upgrades.

KCTK

farmers101 wrote: »

Any ideas lads is it a good idea to go from beef farming - dairy farming?

What are the costs involved to set up and also annually costs? Profit?

Would the best idea getting into diary be to buy fr & jex heifer calves and rear them?

Hey there, done the transition this year. Very happy so far but make sure you really want to be in dairy before changing as no matter how you go about it the costs are not to be laughed at (conversion old slatted tanks, use of old building for parlour here and still money disappears) also big difference in that you are tied twice a day everyday.

I do believe there is a better chance of making a living from full time dairy v full time beef but no guarantees, if you are not prepared to give it your all it could be a very costly mistake. Could not say how much it would cost you to set up as everyone will be in a different position re what your infrastructure is like to start with.

Not sure about buying calves and rearing them to get going, that would be 2 years with no income from them, calved heifers were picked up very reasonably last spring but guess no guarantee they will be got at a good price next spring or any other spring.

Am I happy I changed, definitely yes. Best of luck with deciding on whether to change or not!!!

grazeaway

farmers101 wrote: »

Any ideas lads is it a good idea to go from beef farming - dairy farming?

What are the costs involved to set up and also annually costs? Profit?

Would the best idea getting into diary be to buy fr & jex heifer calves and rear them?

Depends where your starting from.
What kind of sheds is there and how easy is it to convert?
What are the fields are they in paddocks if not can they?
How good is the grass?
Is there a roadway connecting the fields to the yard?
Can you build a parlour in an existing shed? If not can build next to the existing yard?
How many cows can you take on the farm?
How are you for water and slurry storage.

All of these need to be though about you even get cows

blue5000

Speaking from experience it's a lot easier go the other way, dairy to beef.

farmers101

what would the cow/acre be for heavy land? i have only slatted sheds and hay shed atm!!

moy83

blue5000 wrote: »

Speaking from experience it's a lot easier go the other way, dairy to beef.

How do you find the take home money from the beef compared to when you were milking blue ? You hear lots of people saying that there isnt a bob to be made from suckling but it would be nice to hear the other side of it too (if there is one )

blue5000

farmers101 wrote: »

what would the cow/acre be for heavy land? i have only slatted sheds and hay shed atm!!

Ballpark 1.25 cows per acre, BUT not last year!!:rolleyes:

blue5000

moy83 wrote: »

How do you find the take home money from the beef compared to when you were milking blue ? You hear lots of people saying that there isnt a bob to be made from suckling but it would be nice to hear the other side of it too (if there is one )

We haven't starved yet, but there probably is more potential to make money in dairying. Only day I miss the cows is around the 18th of the month. Cost wise and lifestyle wise there is no comparison.

Sam Kade

moy83 wrote: »

How do you find the take home money from the beef compared to when you were milking blue ? You hear lots of people saying that there isnt a bob to be made from suckling but it would be nice to hear the other side of it too (if there is one )

I went from dairy to beef then selling calved dairy heifers now back to beef again. Dairy heifers were a disaster this year unless you have an established well known herd you won't get the premium prices, more so when you buy maiden heifers from other herds to calve down and sell on. Beef is dropping in price every day now between the factories acting the mick and farmers short of feed :mad: I am seriously considering going back into dairying in 2015.

Mulumpy

Would contract rearing be an option

moy83

blue5000 wrote: »

We haven't starved yet, but there probably is more potential to make money in dairying. Only day I miss the cows is around the 18th of the month. Cost wise and lifestyle wise there is no comparison.

You would want to be well able to stretch the mart/factory cheque alright .
I suppose the cheaper you can keep your cows and the more of them you can keep will improve the chances .

moy83

Sam Kade wrote: »

I went from dairy to beef then selling calved dairy heifers now back to beef again. Dairy heifers were a disaster this year unless you have an established well known herd you won't get the premium prices, more so when you buy maiden heifers from other herds to calve down and sell on. Beef is dropping in price every day now between the factories acting the mick and farmers short of feed :mad: I am seriously considering going back into dairying in 2015.

How long did you spend at each enterprise before changing ? Its great to be able to adapt and change depending on the markets but its hard to get it right every time too .
Beef or dairy will have the good and bad years but if you stick with it they should hopefully balance out .

Sam Kade

moy83 wrote: »

How long did you spend at each enterprise before changing ? Its great to be able to adapt and change depending on the markets but its hard to get it right every time too .
Beef or dairy will have the good and bad years but if you stick with it they should hopefully balance out .

2 years selling dairy heifers 2 years at beef back to beef again this year. I spent a few years making hay and silage to sell, plenty messers to deal with at that game :mad:

moy83

Sam Kade wrote: »

2 years selling dairy heifers 2 years at beef back to beef again this year. I spent a few years making hay and silage to sell, plenty messers to deal with at that game :mad:

The silage and hay is a painfull job alright some people wouldnt be happy if the bales were made of beef nuts !

Sam Kade

moy83 wrote: »

The silage and hay is a painfull job alright some people wouldnt be happy if the bales were made of beef nuts !

And other feckers think it's a charity you are running :mad:

royalmeath

If you need or want to take a holiday your going to have to fork out about 700 notes to get someone to milk for you. It pure hardship 7 days a week non stop.

whelan1

royalmeath wrote: »

If you need or want to take a holiday your going to have to fork out about 700 notes to get someone to milk for you. It pure hardship 7 days a week non stop.

then to get someone reliable is another story

grazeaway

whelan1 wrote: »

then to get someone reliable is another story

yeah dairy is a big lifestyle change compared to beef, as my mum used to say about my dad, "its to the cows he's married".
so thats a big consideration to take into account. i know you said your brother and you were talkign about it then maybe ye could agree a rota between ye (very important if you do that you are both working the same way and that both know what ye are doing) no point having one of ye doign a half arsed job

blue5000

moy83 wrote: »

You would want to be well able to stretch the mart/factory cheque alright .
I suppose the cheaper you can keep your cows and the more of them you can keep will improve the chances .

Getting as many live calves born and weaned is the most important thing, no point in having 100 cows and only 80 weaned calves. Cull cows and keeping young stock through the first winter is a big help for cash flow. Only way I'd ever go back to milking is with a robot.

bob charles

but if you switch for a intensive dairy operation to intensive beef, there will still be a similar work load. Beef guys are still tied to the animals, I had to be home yesterday to feed animals,check stock and sort animals for slaughter, but I'm not tied to the exact same time each day.

yellow50HX

bob charles wrote: »

but if you switch for a intensive dairy operation to intensive beef, there will still be a similar work load. Beef guys are still tied to the animals, I had to be home yesterday to feed animals,check stock and sort animals for slaughter, but I'm not tied to the exact same time each day.

yeah, i usually try to do very little on the farm on a sunday, espically during the summer. I check the cows in morning have the breakfast then do what i want for the day then check them again in the evening. there is always someone around at some stage so either me, my dad or one of my siblings will stroll around them to see that everything is ok at least once a day. winter time is a different as we still need to clean down the passageways and put silage, but can still do that later in the afternoon if need be, and only then only need to be i teh yard for an hour or two

moy83

blue5000 wrote: »

Getting as many live calves born and weaned is the most important thing, no point in having 100 cows and only 80 weaned calves. Cull cows and keeping young stock through the first winter is a big help for cash flow. Only way I'd ever go back to milking is with a robot.

Are you calving spring and autumn ? If you have 100 cows , how many do you expect to have back in calf in time for next years calfing ?And if they dont come on time do you let the spring ladies run into autumn and visa-versa or cull them ?

I was losing interest in the sucklers there for awhile but a mate has a 600 acre pretty good mountain with only 40 ewes on it and he has to go working out foreign so he said if I look after the few ewes while he is gone I can graze some of my own stuff on it .
A place like that could hold a nice blast of cows and maybe thats the way to look at the sucklers from now on . Keep the cows as work and maintenance free as possible , in the cheapest place possible .
Wean the calves and bring them home then to finish in the sheds .

dmg86

like a few posters here i've gone the other way from dairy to beef... I would say if your not afraid of hard work and have a serious level of commitment and think you will love it then go for it.... but I would be of the strong opinion that unless you OWN enough land to have a grazing platform to hold at least 100 milking cows and also own land to rear your replacements and have enough silage ground it is not a worthwhile investment.

Viewtodiefor

dmg86 wrote: »

like a few posters here i've gone the other way from dairy to beef... I would say if your not afraid of hard work and have a serious level of commitment and think you will love it then go for it.... but I would be of the strong opinion that unless you OWN enough land to have a grazing platform to hold at least 100 milking cows and also own land to rear your replacements and have enough silage ground it is not a worthwhile investment.

I'm curious as to how you are finding the switch? Do you find cash scarcer now? Have always had a mix here at home but thinking of all dairy in d future. Lots of beef lads around here gone for d big investment reckon its great and milk at 20c couldn't be worse that suckling/beef, I'm not sure they realise the costs involved in cows when milk price is low and they still have to be milked and not a whole lot to pay yourself with. Think that will be the biggest shock for them it's fine working when your paid well but having to do d same work for a whole lot less might be a eye opener for some! In my opinion there will be good and bad yrs as before its a question of how long the bad ones will be and will lads be able to ride it out. Especially d borrowed lads. Remember back in 06 and 07ish lots of fine dairy operations got out of milk around here as they reckoned it wasn't worth it. How times have changed!

bob charles

As a mate of mine that runs a large dairy/beef enterprise says - a bad dairy guy will make plenty of money whereas a top beef person will make pittance.

Viewtodiefor

bob charles wrote: »

As a mate of mine that runs a large dairy/beef enterprise says - a bad dairy guy will make plenty of money whereas a top beef person will make pittance.

So what do you reckon bob? Am I noticing you warming to cows the last few months??

I have a auld lad here refusing to take the full leap as he doesn't want all d chickens in one box!

dmg86

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

I'm curious as to how you are finding the switch? Do you find cash scarcer now? Have always had a mix here at home but thinking of all dairy in d future. Lots of beef lads around here gone for d big investment reckon its great and milk at 20c couldn't be worse that suckling/beef, I'm not sure they realise the costs involved in cows when milk price is low and they still have to be milked and not a whole lot to pay yourself with. Think that will be the biggest shock for them it's fine working when your paid well but having to do d same work for a whole lot less might be a eye opener for some! In my opinion there will be good and bad yrs as before its a question of how long the bad ones will be and will lads be able to ride it out. Especially d borrowed lads. Remember back in 06 and 07ish lots of fine dairy operations got out of milk around here as they reckoned it wasn't worth it. How times have changed!

couldn't agree more... people forget about years like 06 and 07... and could you nearly go to say people have forgotten about last yrs weather and the 12/13 winter just because we had a good summer??!!!:eek: And I would say people have this grass is greener on the other side view when they talk about changing to dairy... Do they know what it really involves? over the last 10/20 years there has been more bad years than good and your finances need to be in a good state to cope with bad years which can drag on.

cash isn't much scarcer, I have expanded the farm size as a suckler farmer so that evened that out. but the monthly cheque is missed. the change wasn't hard... was milking 70cows very intensively with zero options for expansion in any form in that I couldn't expand the grazing platform so it was a no brainer for me. wouldn't do a mix, would go all dairy if I was in your shoes. workload is much the same... except for not being tied to weekend milking which you could justify to pay for a relief milker with 100 cows. which would I prefer?? both have their pros and cons but I would chose dairy... milking a reasonable number... reasons being its easier managed, if managed right of course!! I liked the routine that comes with it. but did it pay for milking 70 cows?? not at all in my opioion.

kevthegaff

I agree with you, i wouldnt invest heavily into dairying unless one could milk 100+ cows with future land availability nearby. I hope these guys investing into 50 cows with no room to expand work but i think they could be changing theyre enterprise 10-20 yrs time

Viewtodiefor

dmg86 wrote: »

couldn't agree more... people forget about years like 06 and 07... and could you nearly go to say people have forgotten about last yrs weather and the 12/13 winter just because we had a good summer??!!!:eek: And I would say people have this grass is greener on the other side view when they talk about changing to dairy... Do they know what it really involves? over the last 10/20 years there has been more bad years than good and your finances need to be in a good state to cope with bad years which can drag on.

cash isn't much scarcer, I have expanded the farm size as a suckler farmer so that evened that out. but the monthly cheque is missed. the change wasn't hard... was milking 70cows very intensively with zero options for expansion in any form in that I couldn't expand the grazing platform so it was a no brainer for me. wouldn't do a mix, would go all dairy if I was in your shoes. workload is much the same... except for not being tied to weekend milking which you could justify to pay for a relief milker with 100 cows. which would I prefer?? both have their pros and cons but I would chose dairy... milking a reasonable number... reasons being its easier managed, if managed right of course!! I liked the routine that comes with it. but did it pay for milking 70 cows?? not at all in my opioion.

Well most ill get to on current milking block is 80. Outside chance to rent a bit in years to come. My preference is dairy also as I find you can concentrate on it properly and make some good efficiencies when fully committed to it. Haven't a whole lot of investment left to do as a tank n extra cubicles maybe. Still find it hard to justify building housing

6480

i think the talk of high milk price has too many lads of swimming into a dairy farm .
there s alot more to it than people think and with so many talking about getting in the co-op s will have milk for nothing and then the whole lots fecked , if i was running a good suckler outfit i would stick with it as there will be money in it again

mf240

Milking cows is handy if you like it.

Suckler cows are hard enough to manage and drystock will only pay if your into very big numbers.

The only thing that will trip up lads is over borrowing.

Whats wrong with a second hand milking machine and a couple of ring feeders. Walk before you can run.

jersey101

dmg86 wrote: »

couldn't agree more... people forget about years like 06 and 07... and could you nearly go to say people have forgotten about last yrs weather and the 12/13 winter just because we had a good summer??!!!:eek: And I would say people have this grass is greener on the other side view when they talk about changing to dairy... Do they know what it really involves? over the last 10/20 years there has been more bad years than good and your finances need to be in a good state to cope with bad years which can drag on.

cash isn't much scarcer, I have expanded the farm size as a suckler farmer so that evened that out. but the monthly cheque is missed. the change wasn't hard... was milking 70cows very intensively with zero options for expansion in any form in that I couldn't expand the grazing platform so it was a no brainer for me. wouldn't do a mix, would go all dairy if I was in your shoes. workload is much the same... except for not being tied to weekend milking which you could justify to pay for a relief milker with 100 cows. which would I prefer?? both have their pros and cons but I would chose dairy... milking a reasonable number... reasons being its easier managed, if managed right of course!! I liked the routine that comes with it. but did it pay for milking 70 cows?? not at all in my opioion.

nothing wrong with milking 70 cows. Know a lot if lads milking less and have an excellant lifestyle and good setups.
What was your decision based on moving to suckler?

kevthegaff

there seems to be always investment in a dairy farm, im thinking of putting up a 75x90ft shed next year that covers the yard/crush and 45 cubicles with an option of another 30, i say its my last job but ill end up putting in a bigger parlour 5yrs from now

bob charles

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

So what do you reckon bob? Am I noticing you warming to cows the last few months??

I have a auld lad here refusing to take the full leap as he doesn't want all d chickens in one box!

he may just be right, the beef might not be making you money but its putting it together for your operation. It gives the cows a great jump start in the spring with the cash injection for the sale of your beef animals

dmg86

jersey101 wrote: »

nothing wrong with milking 70 cows. Know a lot if lads milking less and have an excellant lifestyle and good setups.
What was your decision based on moving to suckler?

Yes I agree... some top class dairy farms out there with smaller herds and im by no means saying you have to be milking big numbers to be a good dairy farmer. my decision was mainly financial.... you have to put a value on your time. To me the labour in milking 70 cows is the very same as milking 100 cows but the financial returns certainly aren't. also it was the introduction of nitrates so I would have had to invest in more slurry storage or to reduce cow numbers... milk prices were bad for 10yrs... no room for expansion... Parlour had to be upgraded... and sunday evening milkings are tough. I bought more land which wouldn't have aided in milking more cows but could hold a reasonable sized suckler herd so I opted for that.

Muckit

bob charles wrote: »

he may just be right, the beef might not be making you money but its putting it together for your operation. It gives the cows a great jump start in the spring with the cash injection for the sale of your beef animals

Ya see a dairy lad round here buying up the scraps of wh and ch heifers to graze off his silage outfarms. Throw the Angus or he bull in with them and sell off as in calf. Mightn't be making a whole pile but not losing a whole pile either

jersey101

dmg86 wrote: »

Yes I agree... some top class dairy farms out there with smaller herds and im by no means saying you have to be milking big numbers to be a good dairy farmer. my decision was mainly financial.... you have to put a value on your time. To me the labour in milking 70 cows is the very same as milking 100 cows but the financial returns certainly aren't. also it was the introduction of nitrates so I would have had to invest in more slurry storage or to reduce cow numbers... milk prices were bad for 10yrs... no room for expansion... Parlour had to be upgraded... and sunday evening milkings are tough. I bought more land which wouldn't have aided in milking more cows but could hold a reasonable sized suckler herd so I opted for that.

ye your right about herd size. When ye get to a certain number its easier to manage than say your 60 cows

kevthegaff

i was milking 90 this year and 60 3 yrs ago not much of a difference with a nicer cheque till that damn super""""

Viewtodiefor

bob charles wrote: »

he may just be right, the beef might not be making you money but its putting it together for your operation. It gives the cows a great jump start in the spring with the cash injection for the sale of your beef animals

Yes it definitely does boost the cashflow I have seen that myself. I'm not sure there is any money in it, a little the last two years maybe

jersey101

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Yes it definitely does boost the cashflow I have seen that myself. I'm not sure there is any money in it, a little the last two years maybe

my father calls them a bank account. When ever you need money quick you can get it by killing a few bullocks. I think there a waste of time tbh. Its hard enough to get heifers at right weights never mind bullocks.

Farmer Pudsey

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Yes it definitely does boost the cashflow I have seen that myself. I'm not sure there is any money in it, a little the last two years maybe

I think too many farmers get caught up in cash flow. Most dairy farmers that have beef operation target a spring finish for cash flow purposes. I think this is the most unprofitable time to finish cattle. Prices tend to drop end of January and stagnate form February-April. To make a profit at winter finishing you need a rising price especially with dairy bred animals.

A lot forget that they would not have the cash flow issue if they did not have the beef operation. It suck in money all year long especially in the last 100 days pre finishing adding to other large expenses at this time of year such as fertilizer. Selling calves as they drop might be just as profitable. It creates a bigger demand for silage and maybe wholecrop or maize. I think some farmers get caught up with cash flow.

Brown Podzol

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I think too many farmers get caught up in cash flow. Most dairy farmers that have beef operation target a spring finish for cash flow purposes. I think this is the most unprofitable time to finish cattle. Prices tend to drop end of January and stagnate form February-April. To make a profit at winter finishing you need a rising price especially with dairy bred animals.

A lot forget that they would not have the cash flow issue if they did not have the beef operation. It suck in money all year long especially in the last 100 days pre finishing adding to other large expenses at this time of year such as fertilizer. Selling calves as they drop might be just as profitable. It creates a bigger demand for silage and maybe wholecrop or maize. I think some farmers get caught up with cash flow.

I agree with you to a large extent, but these cattle are kept to populate land away from the milking block. I saw a couple of beef profit monitors a few years ago and the ones on dairy farms tended to be the most profitable due mainly to sharing fixed costs with the dairy herd I would say.

case 956

my grandfather always said " When you see the others running this way, you go and walk the other way and you will be there before them I the end as they will follow you"

mf240

case 956 wrote: »

my grandfather always said " When you see the others running this way, you go and walk the other way and you will be there before them I the end as they will follow you"

Unless your doing the marathon, then you'll just end up back at the carpark on your own.

bob charles

mf240 wrote: »

Unless your doing the marathon, then you'll just end up back at the carpark on your own.

and maybe your much better off back in the car park if you are going to run out of steam after 16 miles

RobertKK

bob charles wrote: »

and maybe your much better off back in the car park if you are going to run out of steam after 16 miles

But then you could get to the car park and just find a horse as your transport as you failed to run with the crowd who went to car power for transport...

moy83

Is 25 cows too small an operation to be worth changing over for ?
The father is saying I should get rid of the sucklers and go back milking but I dont know how it will be after a few years .
I don't think I'll have to borrow anything , we have enough roads , water and paddocks . The only thing that I'd like to put in would be a a better parlour because we only had a pipeline when we got out .
But is 25 cows worth it ? If everything was well reseeded we could maybe carry 40 but we wouldn't be grazing early in the year so it could be costly feeding them if we had too many in

visatorro

fella bought old parlour feeders off me last november. was calving down 20 heifers this spring. he said he would go to 30 and thats it. he was working full time as sales rep aswell so flexible hours. he bought second hand parlour. he didnt have much else investment to make. rough calculation say thirty cows giving 5000 litres with 7 cent a litre profit is 10500. adding sfp would more than double that. i just put in 7 cent a litre profit off the top of my head. obviously there's loads of reasons that figure might go up or down.

RightTurnClyde

visatorro wrote: »

fella bought old parlour feeders off me last november. was calving down 20 heifers this spring. he said he would go to 30 and thats it. he was working full time as sales rep aswell so flexible hours. he bought second hand parlour. he didnt have much else investment to make. rough calculation say thirty cows giving 5000 litres with 7 cent a litre profit is 10500. adding sfp would more than double that. i just put in 7 cent a litre profit off the top of my head. obviously there's loads of reasons that figure might go up or down.

You'd have to look at the opertunity cost of the land too in that situation. If he rented out the land he'd probably get 30 acres x 200€. 6000€. His 10k is getting small niw

tomwaterford

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

You'd have to look at the opertunity cost of the land too in that situation. If he rented out the land he'd probably get 30 acres x 200€. 6000€. His 10k is getting small niw

he'd get e300 an acre around here....know of large farmer giving e420 an acre...it is top quality land with no waste alright.