IHFA Open day

delaval

Did anyone attend?

I was reading about it this morning and a lot of unanswered questions.

I have a few if anyone attended.

mahoney_j

Meant to go down but couldn't go for a finish.excellent herd of cows if that's what your into.for me though I think cows are too fine and calving interval is too long 420 days,and not enough attention giving to fertility sub index when breeding.cows only lasting 2 to 4 years.big volume of milk sold thougb(8800 Ltrs per cow)and delivering 670 kg odd log solids
Once poster on here(stan) doing a much better job in particular (ci clots to 365 days and delivering over 9000 kg milk)hope this dosnt descend into another Holstein v xbreeds debate.hoksteins have a future if managed correctly and attention to detail is good but I won't even argue with anyone that accepts calving intervals of over 380 days .

delaval

mahoney_j wrote: »

Meant to go down but couldn't go for a finish.excellent herd of cows if that's what your into.for me though I think cows are too fine and calving interval is too long 420 days,and not enough attention giving to fertility sub index when breeding.cows only lasting 2 to 4 years.big volume of milk sold thougb(8800 Ltrs per cow)and delivering 670 kg odd log solids
Once poster on here(stan) doing a much better job in particular (ci clots to 365 days and delivering over 9000 kg milk)hope this dosnt descend into another Holstein v xbreeds debate.hoksteins have a future if managed correctly and attention to detail is good but I won't even argue with anyone that accepts calving intervals of over 380 days .

Not where I'm heading, We will be using Hols as we always have on Jex's. I was shocked at their lack of attention to Fert. Was talking to someone who was there and he said fine herd. I couldn't go myself and as I read IfJ was thinking of yourself and Stan and in particular yere solids and CI.

How much milk did they supply and how many cows on the farm incuding dry ones. I attended Grassland tour to a very famous Hol breeder a few years ago and the headline figure was 9000 lit/cow, but when one dug in a bit 30% were dry all the time so actual results were closer to 6-7K / cow.

To the likes of me the PB breeder is of vital importance, but i think heads in the sand when it comes to Fert in a retrograde step and leaves them open to huge questions as to relevance to the commercial farmer

stanflt

mahoney_j wrote: »

Meant to go down but couldn't go for a finish.excellent herd of cows if that's what your into.for me though I think cows are too fine and calving interval is too long 420 days,and not enough attention giving to fertility sub index when breeding.cows only lasting 2 to 4 years.big volume of milk sold thougb(8800 Ltrs per cow)and delivering 670 kg odd log sodlis
Once poster on here(stan) doing a much better job in particular (ci clots to 365 days and delivering over 9000 kg milk)hope this dosnt descend into another Holstein v xbreeds debate.hoksteins have a future if managed correctly and attention to detail is good but I won't even argue with anyone that accepts calving intervals of over 380 days .

my dad was at it- this was a milk recorded yield

my father asked a high up person in ihfa why they didnt quote official icbf fiqures and he was told they had "no comment"

these lads are against ebi because it devalues the their famous bloodlines that cost thousand but only last 2lactations

these same lads wouldnt buy ex90 classified cows from my herd because they are irish bred thru and thru yet they would spent thousands on a "potential" vg cow with a canadian or dutch sire from an "elite cow family"

years ago my father put an add in the journal for bulls
bulls for sale from 3gen vg/ex dams with high ebis

he got a phone call from a breeder telling him he was devaluing his stock

mahoney_j

delaval wrote: »

Not where I'm heading, We will be using Hols as we always have on Jex's. I was shocked at their lack of attention to Fert. Was talking to someone who was there and he said fine herd. I couldn't go myself and as I read IfJ was thinking of yourself and Stan and in particular yere solids and CI.

How much milk did they supply and how many cows on the farm incuding dry ones. I attended Grassland tour to a very famous Hol breeder a few years ago and the headline figure was 9000 lit/cow, but when one dug in a bit 30% were dry all the time so actual results were closer to 6-7K / cow.

To the likes of me the PB breeder is of vital importance, but i think heads in the sand when it comes to Fert in a retrograde step and leaves them open to huge questions as to relevance to the commercial farmer

Hard to disagree with you,a lot of those very finely breed Holstein breeders have zero time for the ebi index and its hard to see why.cows only lasting 2 to 4 years and ci of 400 days plus have no place in any herd.a big portion of sales on those farms though come from bull sales and cow and heifer sales where big prices are very often achieved.
There is a huge gra for cow families on these farms and lads won't let them go a lot of time unless they die.these are cows that will have generations of cows with various different traits be it production or type etc.i will admit to having it myself but don't want a big tall extreme type animal with poor fertility..I have cows and off spring from these from bulls like lord Lilly,mascot,fatal,mount beech black star and I would be loath to loose them and for the most part they are lasting due to the way they are managed.

delaval

Stan
Does milk recorded mean 305 day yield or from calving to drying?
I love the way you and I quote figures inc dry and cull cows, basically all cows on the farm. Is this what we are looking at here?
Cows lasting 2-3 years not a runner in any here IMO.

stanflt

delaval wrote: »

Stan
Does milk recorded mean 305 day yield or from calving to drying?
I love the way you and I quote figures inc dry and cull cows, basically all cows on the farm. Is this what we are looking at here?
Cows lasting 2-3 years not a runner in any here IMO.

milk recorded yields are 305 day yields but the cow may be dry for 6months so has no bearing on milk sold

they wont quote figures for dry or cull cause it devalues their opperation

that farm you were on is struggling to sell bulls anymore as a lot of realism has set in when actual fiqures are shown-

Going forward...

Who cares about their Fert Sub Index? Have they a profitable farm? That's all that matters at the end of the day. Probably milking all year round and selling lots of heifers too. That always amuses me when that happens, woeful fertility apparently but still selling heifers year after year and often to return customers.

delaval wrote: »

leaves them open to huge questions as to relevance to the commercial farmer

Are they not commercial? I know what you're getting at but it makes no sense to call them that. Such farms rely on the milk cheque just as much as the rest of us.

stanflt wrote: »

milk recorded yields are 305 day yields but the cow may be dry for 6months so has no bearing on milk sold

they wont quote figures for dry or cull cause it devalues their opperation

that farm you were on is struggling to sell bulls anymore as a lot of realism has set in when actual fiqures are shown-

Of course. You tell anyone that cares to listen how amazing your herd is, no wonder you're taking a pop at a rival herd.

mahoney_j

Going forward... wrote: »

Who cares about their Fert Sub Index? Have they a profitable farm? That's all that matters at the end of the day. Probably milking all year round and selling lots of heifers too. That always amuses me when that happens, woeful fertility apparently but still selling heifers year after year and often to return customers.

Are they not commercial? I know what you're getting at but it makes no sense to call them that. Such farms rely on the milk cheque just as much as the rest of us.

Of course. You tell anyone that cares to listen how amazing your herd is, no wonder you're taking a pop at a rival herd.

Harsh and don't see it as taking a pop hard to argue with stan on his figures when you compare it with a herd like featured in open day.i would be aiming to get close to what stan is at and will be proud as punch when I get close to it.saying that I'm very happy with herd at the moment and any time mg group or any is here nothing is hidden

stanflt

Going forward... wrote: »

Who cares about their Fert Sub Index? Have they a profitable farm? That's all that matters at the end of the day. Probably milking all year round and selling lots of heifers too. That always amuses me when that happens, woeful fertility apparently but still selling heifers year after year and often to return customers.

Are they not commercial? I know what you're getting at but it makes no sense to call them that. Such farms rely on the milk cheque just as much as the rest of us.

Of course. You tell anyone that cares to listen how amazing your herd is, no wonder you're taking a pop at a rival herd.

im not taking a pop- id love to have a herd and farm half as good as this particular farmer

delaval

This is why I was hesitant about posting. Commercial is a term used and you and I know the meaning so no need for a comment on it.

We have no idea about profit ability from IFJ. I was not there and don't know if it was discussed. If you were perhaps you could enlighten us.

I in no way am having a go at Hols and certainly not the family involved, as I said the word is that they have a great herd.

Why don't the IHFA make it a day for us non breeders instead of an ego fest beauty contest.

Again not criticising the farmer in any way. The only info is what I've read.

You will really need to expand on why CI is not important

Going forward...

stanflt wrote: »

im not taking a pop- id love to have a herd and farm half as good as this particular farmer

Really? That's not how I interpreted your post. You questioned their figures and said farmers have stopped buying bulls off them as a result.

delaval wrote: »

You will really need to expand on why CI is not important

If it's not a strict spring calving herd, I guess it's not too important. I wasn't there but I imagine these cows don't peak at 20litres on calmag dust so they probably milk well into their long lactation.

It's like saying milk yield doesn't matter as long as profitability is there.

stanflt

Going forward... wrote: »

Really? That's not how I interpreted your post. You questioned their figures and said farmers have stopped buying bulls off them as a result.


If it's not a strict spring calving herd, I guess it's not too important. I wasn't there but I imagine these cows don't peak at 20litres on calmag dust so they probably milk well into their long lactation.

It's like saying milk yield doesn't matter as long as profitability is there.

i was talking about the grassland walk here where all figures were shown-fair play to this man as he had nothing to hide

the ihfa really has to modernise or it will leave all young farmers who want a sustainable futhure behind

delaval

Going forward... wrote: »

Really? That's not how I interpreted your post. You questioned their figures and said farmers have stopped buying bulls off them as a result.


If it's not a strict spring calving herd, I guess it's not too important. I wasn't there but I imagine these cows don't peak at 20litres on calmag dust so they probably milk well into their long lactation.

It's like saying milk yield doesn't matter as long as profitability is there.

So despite your assertion re profit you don't actually know but the cows looked well. I have no doubt that the cows were milking well I'm only trying to wade through the fog here and compare to my own.
As I said we use Hols and would like to know more.
Surely if fert was better they would have more stock to sell. It's also important to know how much of the extra feed goes towards milk and that can't be established without proper figures re production
Back to the question of how many cows on the farm and how much milk sold?

stanflt

Going forward... wrote: »

Really? That's not how I interpreted your post. You questioned their figures and said farmers have stopped buying bulls off them as a result.


If it's not a strict spring calving herd, I guess it's not too important. I wasn't there but I imagine these cows don't peak at 20litres on calmag dust so they probably milk well into their long lactation.

It's like saying milk yield doesn't matter as long as profitability is there.

a 10000 litre milk recorded cow will only deliver 10000 litre a year if she has a 365ci if she calves every 450plus days she will is only really a 7-8000 litre cow

she also produces less offspring

so fertility index is the key driver

whats your opinion on ebi

Going forward...

My apologies in that case.

Has the IHFA much infleunce? I'm certain the Irish AI industry would look a whole lot different if it did. I guess they're confused as the breed is so diverse and it's hard to cater to everyone.

delaval

Going forward... wrote: »

My apologies in that case.

Has the IHFA much infleunce? I'm certain the Irish AI industry would look a whole lot different if it did. I guess they're confused as the breed is so diverse and it's hard to cater to everyone.

I think the IHFA would be doing their members a huge service if they got more into the figures. I really think they have a lot to contribute to the industry.

stanflt

Going forward... wrote: »

My apologies in that case.

Has the IHFA much infleunce? I'm certain the Irish AI industry would look a whole lot different if it did. I guess they're confused as the breed is so diverse and it's hard to cater to everyone.

prob not but this month i had to pay nearly 3000euro to register heifers and bulls

i had to pay to register bulls-i questioned why so much and they said it was to pay for genotyping- however i pointed out to them that the genotyping was already paid for by the various ai companies-as ihfa wanted me to send off the same samples again. they then said that it was to verify parentage- i replied that by genotying that was the most accurate- they then told be that icbf system was flawed yet the ihfa now uses geneseek the same company and procedure

awaywithyou

stanflt wrote: »

i was talking about the grassland walk here where all figures were shown-fair play to this man as he had nothing to hide

the ihfa really has to modernise or it will leave all young farmers who want a sustainable futhure behind

is it the organisation that has to modernise or the mindset of the people running it...?

is your herd not similar to that herd in cork or the other one referred to...?

we have a herd of pedigree holsteins.... ideally they'd calve in the spring and go back in calf quickly... easier said than done.... but we have no notion of culling a cow just because she dont calve down every 365 days....

awaywithyou

stanflt wrote: »

prob not but this month i had to pay nearly 3000euro to register heifers and bulls

i had to pay to register bulls-i questioned why so much and they said it was to pay for genotyping- however i pointed out to them that the genotyping was already paid for by the various ai companies-as ihfa wanted me to send off the same samples again. they then said that it was to verify parentage- i replied that by genotying that was the most accurate- they then told be that icbf system was flawed yet the ihfa now uses geneseek the same company and procedure

registering the bulls is a bloody rip off if ever there was one..... an absolute rip off... my jaw hit the floor when the bill came in the door

stanflt

awaywithyou wrote: »

is it the organisation that has to modernise or the mindset of the people running it...?

is your herd not similar to that herd in cork or the other one referred to...?

we have a herd of pedigree holsteins.... ideally they'd calve in the spring and go back in calf quickly... easier said than done.... but we have no notion of culling a cow just because she dont calve down every 365 days....

great question

my herd is very similar except i would be focused on fertility and breeding for less kg of milk-ie a pd of 200kg milk

the attitude is that you need 450kg plus

Going forward...

stanflt wrote: »

a 10000 litre milk recorded cow will only deliver 10000 litre a year if she has a 365ci if she calves every 450plus days she will is only really a 7-8000 litre cow

she also produces less offspring

so fertility index is the key driver

whats your opinion on ebi

That's assuming she has a dry period of how long? 305 figures are a standard used throughout the industry so not much point trying to say your approach is better. I just go with it.

EBI is a great tool but breeding cows on paper goes wrong sometimes, have to deal with what's in front of you too.

awaywithyou wrote: »

we have a herd of pedigree holsteins.... ideally they'd calve in the spring and go back in calf quickly... easier said than done.... but we have no notion of culling a cow just because she dont calve down every 365 days....

Same here. Easy to manipulate CI and don't start on the practice of inducing calvings.

awaywithyou

stanflt wrote: »

great question

my herd is very similar except i would be focused on fertility and breeding for less kg of milk-ie a pd of 200kg milk

the attitude is that you need 450kg plus

and thats absolute nonsense.....

300kgs of milk is loads for any cow...

awaywithyou

Going forward... wrote: »

That's assuming she has a dry period of how long? 305 figures are a standard used throughout the industry so not much point trying to say your approach is better. I just go with it.

EBI is a great tool but breeding cows on paper goes wrong sometimes, have to deal with what's in front of you too.

you could always look at both when choosing a bull...... loads of bulls available these days..... surely one bull out there that would improve fertility and say legs and feet or whatever....

delaval

Would it be possible to achieve 9klitres with hols in a 300 cow herd considering the amount of walking. This is with 365 or there abouts CI??

Timmaay

delaval wrote: »

Would it be possible to achieve 9klitres with hols in a 300 cow herd considering the amount of walking. This is with 365 or there abouts CI??

Good question, and going one step further, for the average irish herd (say ebi of 100, fert 70, production 30, I gather that's glanbias average anyway), and knocking out about 1300gls delivered per year, how achievable is getting that herd to produce what you asked above? Will it take too long to breed it into the herd? Teagasc with the xbreds certainly seem to be hinting its too hard to achieve.

whelan1

stanflt wrote: »

prob not but this month i had to pay nearly 3000euro to register heifers and bulls

there is feck all corelation between ihfa and icbf/cmms, when you register your live calf with cmms/icbf and put down the pedigree details they do not check if the calf is still alive before they send out cert, thus costing 13 euro for a cert for a dead calf iykwim

delaval

Tim
I think the cows are there Stan and Mahoney have them. I was wondering would it be possible from a management point of view?

stanflt

delaval wrote: »

Tim
I think the cows are there Stan and Mahoney have them. I was wondering would it be possible from a management point of view?

i think 200 would be my limit as cows will be walking to much

mf240

delaval wrote: »

Would it be possible to achieve 9klitres with hols in a 300 cow herd considering the amount of walking. This is with 365 or there abouts CI??

Dont think they would suit that size of a herd delaval.

From a milk yield point of view assuming a cow is only dry six weeks and giving 25 litres when dried of, if she calves every 18 months she will be milking 6 weeks longer than a 365 cow over a three year period. as the 365 cow will have an extra dry period.

stanflt

mf240 wrote: »

Dont think they would suit that size of a herd delaval.

From a milk yield point of view assuming a cow is only dry six weeks and giving 25 litres when dried of, if she calves every 18 months she will be milking 6 weeks longer than a 365 cow over a three year period. as the 365 cow will have an extra dry period.

assume= ass of u and me

a 365 day cow has a 70% chance of making 7lactations
a 450 cow has 38%chance of making 4 lactations

source icbf/national milk recording data

delaval

stanflt wrote: »

assume= ass of u and me

a 365 day cow has a 70% chance of making 7lactations
a 450 cow has 38%chance of making 4 lactations

source icbf/national milk recording data

Stan we'll leave your cows out of this as I think it is not the norm as is the xbred herd I know of that's doing 7000l

8000 litres x 3 lact = 24000 in cows life + 1.5 heifer calves

5500 litres x 6 lact = 33000 in cows life + 3 heifer calves

As the cost of bringing these females into the herd is significant it's vital they are kept as long as possible

stanflt

i see co-op performance reports are out for the first six months of year on icbf

i quess 100% means your the the leading herd in that category???

delaval

stanflt wrote: »

i see co-op performance reports are out for the first six months of year on icbf

i quess 100% means your the the leading herd in that category???

Is it on line now

stanflt

delaval wrote: »

Is it on line now

mine is

bogman_bass

delaval wrote: »

Why don't the IHFA make it a day for us non breeders instead of an ego fest beauty contest.

Because farmers are well catered for with that sort of day (Moorepark, IGA etc)

The IHFA day is designed for pedigree guys who like pretty cows because they are the ones that keep the IHFA going

As for EBI, a lot of these guys want to bash it because excepting it is basically admitting that they've been wrong all their lives.
Not an easy thing to do.

Monamore seems to be the only one of the big name herds (no offence Stan) that is accepti ng EBI and even that might be grudgingly

bogman_bass

awaywithyou wrote: »

you could always look at both when choosing a bull...... loads of bulls available these days..... surely one bull out there that would improve fertility and say legs and feet or whatever....

there were straws of an Italian bull - Boss Iron brought in to fufil that niche. LLads werent exactly falling over themselves to use him

I has to laugh at the paddock of jerseys Righ in the middle of the IHFA open day. I say some of the big wigs were disgusted!:D

stanflt

bogman_bass wrote: »

Because farmers are well catered for with that sort of day (Moorepark, IGA etc)

The IHFA day is designed for pedigree guys who like pretty cows because they are the ones that keep the IHFA going

As for EBI, a lot of these guys want to bash it because excepting it is basically admitting that they've been wrong all their lives.
Not an easy thing to do.

Monamore seems to be the only one of the big name herds (no offence Stan) that is accepti ng EBI and even that might be grudgingly

none taken
mine will never be a big name herd- just a profitable one

bogman_bass

I dont know Stan. The wheels are looking wobbly on the winter milk train. The more lads go spring calving the less they can cover up bad fertility by carrying over cows.

You're type of herd is where it needs to go

loveta

IMO "And i may be wrong" but there is a lot if not to much emphasis put on EBI some of the worst cows/herds ive ever came across have great ebi's. Was on a demo farm last year and all they were talking about was ebi this, ebi that, and the cows were screw s as the saying goes "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.... chances are its a duck" no matter what a piece of paper says!!

bogman_bass

I've always said that there is a big advantage having good type over bad but no advantage in having great type as opposed to just "good" type

mahoney_j

stanflt wrote: »

i think 200 would be my limit as cows will be walking to much

Agree in this ,a well breed Holstein is a fairly finely tuned animal,walking long distances twice daily would proably shorten lifespan but with regular footh bathing etc it could be counteracted.youd proably need to bring some British freisan blood in.what your at de laval and with your land base you are proably correct.

jaymla627

loveta wrote: »

IMO "And i may be wrong" but there is a lot if not to much emphasis put on EBI some of the worst cows/herds ive ever came across have great ebi's. Was on a demo farm last year and all they were talking about was ebi this, ebi that, and the cows were screw s as the saying goes "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.... chances are its a duck" no matter what a piece of paper says!!

Ebi in my mind is way to heavily based towards fertility the % of what a bulls ebi is made up of is way to far weighed towards fertility with massive disregard towards numerous other traits, having bought in heifers last year that where plus 200 ebi i was fairly annoyed after getting kicked black and blue by these nutjobs for weeks after calving before they calmed down, went and looked up there temperment for their bulls all where negative, but this isnt included in ebi scoring on the flipside bought 10 spock ho heifers average ebi 120 of a lad and there a pleasure in the parlour plus lots of milk/good solids having scanned last month 8 out of 10 of the spock heifers are calving down next feb while only 5 out of 10 of the high ebi heifers are due next feb, the whole high ebi animals are your only hope everything else is garbage is just another teagasc agenda where their trying to get bulls through that suits their agenda.
Another laughable thing is having used a good lot of viking red this year the resulting heifer calves (hopefully) wont have a ebi as the bulls i used arent in the system simply because there not irish bulls

delaval

mahoney_j wrote: »

Agree in this ,a well breed Holstein is a fairly finely tuned animal,walking long distances twice daily would proably shorten lifespan but with regular footh bathing etc it could be counteracted.youd proably need to bring some British freisan blood in.what your at de laval and with your land base you are proably correct.

I need to be very careful with my next step. I will always breed heifers to easy calving but repeated use of Je will only make midgits of my cows.

I plan to run groups of no more than 250 as mostly will be done with hired labour. We are operating at 160 cows per labour unit at the moment, I dont think I'd get away with this with high merit cows

jersey101

Any one have nz freisans? think there a breed that should be looked at good solids and milk and what alot of dairy farmers are after "a fine calf"

delaval

jersey101 wrote: »

Any one have nz freisans? think there a breed that should be looked at good solids and milk and what alot of dairy farmers are after "a fine calf"

I have tons of them, really super cattle

jersey101

delaval wrote: »

I have tons of them, really super cattle

Thinking of getting them into the herd, where do buy the ai straws for them? Dovea?

delaval

jersey101 wrote: »

Thinking of getting them into the herd, where do buy the ai straws for them? Dovea?

Euro gene, you would want to be quiet around here though

stanflt

jaymla627 wrote: »

Ebi in my mind is way to heavily based towards fertility the % of what a bulls ebi is made up of is way to far weighed towards fertility with massive disregard towards numerous other traits, having bought in heifers last year that where plus 200 ebi i was fairly annoyed after getting kicked black and blue by these nutjobs for weeks after calving before they calmed down, went and looked up there temperment for their bulls all where negative, but this isnt included in ebi scoring on the flipside bought 10 spock ho heifers average ebi 120 of a lad and there a pleasure in the parlour plus lots of milk/good solids having scanned last month 8 out of 10 of the spock heifers are calving down next feb while only 5 out of 10 of the high ebi heifers are due next feb, the whole high ebi animals are your only hope everything else is garbage is just another teagasc agenda where their trying to get bulls through that suits their agenda.
Another laughable thing is having used a good lot of viking red this year the resulting heifer calves (hopefully) wont have a ebi as the bulls i used arent in the system simply because there not irish bulls

What is Viking reds code because if semen was purchased thru proper channels it will have an Ebi please post the code as I can check this out for you- it doesn't have to be an irish sire just to have an Ebi

jaymla627

stanflt wrote: »

What is Viking reds code because if semen was purchased thru proper channels it will have an Ebi please post the code as I can check this out for you- it doesn't have to be an irish sire just to have an Ebi

Sorry Viking red is what abs Ireland call Swedish reds, they've actually just added the bulls i used was kinda bemused when one lad i used v foske came back as being - 60 kg on the ebi system with a reliability of 10% despite the fact he is plus 700 kg on the English pli system with over 200 daughters proofed, where are they pulling their figures from its a pure joke at this stage especially regarding my statement on temperament specifically picked this lad because he is plus on temperament but according to the ebi system he is minus by a good deal it seems unless the bull is irish you can basically forget about taking ebi with any bit of seriousness for foreign bulls, how genomic bulls have a higher reliability then this lad on the ebi system despite him having 200 daughters proofed is ludicrous.

Going forward...

bogman_bass wrote: »

As for EBI, a lot of these guys want to bash it because excepting it is basically admitting that they've been wrong all their lives.
Not an easy thing to do.

Monamore seems to be the only one of the big name herds (no offence Stan) that is accepti ng EBI and even that might be grudgingly

Why are they wrong though? In the same way you have no regard for cow families, pedigrees, type etc, they don't chase index. Doesn't make them wrong and if they can continue farming, they must be doing something right.

The Durham imports have done well for Monamore. Basically North American breeding but have decent EBI and is 'Irish' somehow so isn't the worst thing ever as a result. AXN is from the same family I think so very useable bulls.

bogman_bass wrote: »

there were straws of an Italian bull - Boss Iron brought in to fufil that niche. LLads werent exactly falling over themselves to use him

Boss Iron was a show bull deaux.:pac:

stanflt wrote: »

mine will never be a big name herd

I think you're famous enough online anyway.;)

bogman_bass wrote: »

I've always said that there is a big advantage having good type over bad but no advantage in having great type as opposed to just "good" type

I like that. But who is happy with mediocrity? I always want to see the herd improving, something always needs protecting. The practicalities for farmers with a keen interest in breeding, that do their own milking and everything else is that they want to work with nice cows. Why would you want otherwise?