Concern that Vanity Fair calling Pope "Man of the year"

scidive

As Catholics should we be concerned that Vanity fair and Elton John are approving the new Pope Francis.


"Sir Elton John says Pope Francis is ‘a miracle of humility’
Sir Elton John performs in Shanghai (AP)The Italian edition of Vanity Fair has named Pope Francis as its Man of the Year with the backing of singer Sir Elton John.

The magazine features Pope Francis on the cover of its new issue and says that Francis has done enough in his first 100 days as Pope to be put at the top of the list of world leaders who make history.

In an accompanying tribute, Sir Elton writes: “Francis is a miracle of humility in an era of vanity.”

He says he hopes that Pope Francis’s message would extend to communities who desperately need his love, including gay people and the children, women and men who live with HIV and Aids and are often alone and hidden by silence.

“[Pope Francis’s] beacon of hope will bring more light than any advancement of science, because no drug has the power of love,” Sir Elton said.

His support for the Pope will surprise some, considering his previous clashes with the Church, over issues such as gay marriage and contraception in Africa."

maguffin

Would you be less concerned if they were condemning him????

lmaopml

scidive wrote: »

As Catholics should we be concerned that Vanity fair and Elton John are approving the new Pope Francis.


"Sir Elton John says Pope Francis is ‘a miracle of humility’
Sir Elton John performs in Shanghai (AP)The Italian edition of Vanity Fair has named Pope Francis as its Man of the Year with the backing of singer Sir Elton John.

The magazine features Pope Francis on the cover of its new issue and says that Francis has done enough in his first 100 days as Pope to be put at the top of the list of world leaders who make history.

In an accompanying tribute, Sir Elton writes: “Francis is a miracle of humility in an era of vanity.”

He says he hopes that Pope Francis’s message would extend to communities who desperately need his love, including gay people and the children, women and men who live with HIV and Aids and are often alone and hidden by silence.

“[Pope Francis’s] beacon of hope will bring more light than any advancement of science, because no drug has the power of love,” Sir Elton said.

His support for the Pope will surprise some, considering his previous clashes with the Church, over issues such as gay marriage and contraception in Africa."

I think one can take it in the right spirit no?

Pope Francis, is a Catholic - he's not a political pawn or a celebrity in the same way as another - He is and always has been a disciple of Christ.

My only concern, is that people may build one up and as easy tear one down. Life is like that sometimes - so I imagine the new Pope knows.

I like Pope Francis ( the do'er) - I also liked Pope Benedict ( the theologian) - both give their whole lives as witnesses. At the end of the day, that's what we're called to do

If 'Vanity Fair' mag and Elton John like Pope Francis, that's cool - I'd say - I really don't know why anybody wouldn't. However, if they 'don't like' Pope Francis, and Vanity Fair doesn't like him - he's no more or better off really - his life is not his own - he's given it to others.

tommy2bad

Yeah the Pope is cool, go the pope!
No harm in people recognizing the importance of humility (don't do humility myself but their you go) In fact it may be the thing we need the most. Francis is spreading the gospel better than his predecessor to people who would not usually be concerned with popes. Benny (god bless him) spread the gospel among pepole who gave a sh1t about popes, both necessary and both doing their best acording to their tallents.
Just as long as it dosn't turn into some kind of rovk star phenomena, Gods work continues.
The other option is the 'world' hates him! Would that be better?

Manach

So long as please God they (Elton and Pope Francis) don't make a music video together, I might just join the former Pope in seclusion.

Doctor DooM

scidive wrote: »

As Catholics should we be concerned that Vanity fair and Elton John are approving the new Pope Francis.


"Sir Elton John says Pope Francis is ‘a miracle of humility’
Sir Elton John performs in Shanghai (AP)The Italian edition of Vanity Fair has named Pope Francis as its Man of the Year with the backing of singer Sir Elton John.

The magazine features Pope Francis on the cover of its new issue and says that Francis has done enough in his first 100 days as Pope to be put at the top of the list of world leaders who make history.

In an accompanying tribute, Sir Elton writes: “Francis is a miracle of humility in an era of vanity.”

He says he hopes that Pope Francis’s message would extend to communities who desperately need his love, including gay people and the children, women and men who live with HIV and Aids and are often alone and hidden by silence.

“[Pope Francis’s] beacon of hope will bring more light than any advancement of science, because no drug has the power of love,” Sir Elton said.

His support for the Pope will surprise some, considering his previous clashes with the Church, over issues such as gay marriage and contraception in Africa."

Are you? And if so, what possible reason could you have?

Do you believe Elton John is evil or something?

indy_man

The beasts of this world know well that humility is the best force against evil, so they try and plaster him over vanity fair in the hope of dashing the great humility he possesses. Going on Pope Francis's extraordinary pontificate so far I get the feeling he will come out best from this engagement, he seems to possess great wisdom and is being led closely by the holy spirit.

scidive

indy_man wrote: »

The beasts of this world know well that humility is the best force against evil, so they try and plaster him over vanity fair in the hope of dashing the great humility he possesses. Going on Pope Francis's extraordinary pontificate so far I get the feeling he will come out best from this engagement, he seems to possess great wisdom and is being led closely by the holy spirit.

Possibly, they build him up to knock him down like most celebs then again why would enemies of the church suddenly hail the new pope unlike previous popes certainly abit odd and one to watch.

You claim an "extraordinary pontif". Two concerns I have with him so far are

1. talking about implementing alot of changes to the church such the need for Catholics, lay and religious, to shake up the status quo, get out of their stuffy sacristies, reform of curia ect as one Italian paper called it "A revolution underway with Pope Francis, Francis clearly wants to enhance the lay role -- not just in ceremonial ways, but in the nuts and bolts task of reforming the Vatican and governing the church.

His commission to study the economic and administrative structures, for instance, is made up of eight people, only one of whom is a priest -- Msgr. Lucio Angel Vallejo Balda, a Spaniard who serves as secretary of the Vatican's Prefecture for Economic Affairs, and who's a member of the Opus Dei-affiliated Priestly Society of Holy Cross. The other seven are laypeople drawn from the worlds of economics, law and business management.

Logically speaking, this implies clipping the wings of the Vatican's clerical overlords. In the Italian paper La Repubblica, journalist Marco Ansaldo called the commission a "complete subversion" of the Roman Curia -- noting, among other things, that its members don't report to the Vatican's power structure but directly to the pope.

Four months ago, if someone wanted to influence the Vatican's financial operations, they had to call an Italian cardinal. Today they'd be better advised to ring up a lay economist from Malta -- Joseph F.X. Zahra, who heads the new commission.".

I was never a great fan of radical reform of anything specially a 2000 year old institution that has accumulated collective wisdom over the decades. A case of trowing the baby out with the bath water.

2. the new pope talks alot about tackling worldly issues such as poverty, injustice ect but little emphasis on the more important spirtual matters of sin, the sacrements the bible ect. for example in an Italian article "Veteran Italian journalist Sandro Magister recently observed,

"It cannot be an accident that after 120 days of his pontificate, Pope Francis has not yet spoken the words abortion, euthanasia, homosexual marriage," adding that "this silence of his is another of the factors that explain the benevolence of secular public opinion."

Yet Francis has imposed no such gag order on himself when it comes to other political topics, such as poverty, the environment and immigration. It's telling that for this first trip outside Rome, Francis chose the southern Mediterranean island of Lampedusa, a major point of arrival for impoverished African and Middle Eastern immigrants seeking to reach Europe. The pope called for greater compassion for these migrants, chiding the world for a "globalization of indifference."

tommy2bad

I think it's good that he got that far without mentioning abortion, euthanasia, homosexual marriage. I mean we know where the church stands on these things, a reminder of our duty to those less fortinuiate won't go astray.
At to being outraged that he hired people drawn from the worlds of economics, law and business management to study economic and administrative structures? Were you thinking that if he got more priests they could say another mass as a solution?

I think Jesus didn't say enough about poverty, He spent too much time going on about abortion, euthanasia, homosexual marriage. The pope needs to correct this deficit.

indy_man

He also asked religious to drive more humble cars, which doesn't seem like a bad shake-up.

When I heard there was to be a shake-up of the Vatican bank structure, I felt it can only be a good thing.

As far as I can see some radical reform is needed in the church, something needs to be done to stem the tide of apostasy and bring the stray sheep back. Provided this does not bring any change to the churches doctrines on sin, stance on abortion or any radical changes to the catechism, etc.

On a spiritual level he needs to fight evil and fight it out of the church also, the humility he is showing I believe is the right way.

scidive wrote: »

2. the new pope talks alot about tackling worldly issues such as poverty, injustice ect but little emphasis on the more important spirtual matters of sin, the sacrements the bible ect.

Pope Francis talks about sin here.
http://www.josemariaescriva.info/article/pope-francis-let-us-not-harbor-sin

You say he does not talk about the Bible??? Have you not listened to any of his homily's.

One of the first things I heard Pope Francis say was about a single mother who wanted her child baptized but was turned away from the church. He said she should be allowed to have her child baptized as she could have made the decision to return the child to sender by abortion.

Actually, if I took the time I could list 100s of deeply spiritual things Francis has said and great acts of humility he has performed, as far is I am concerned he is truly walking in the footsteps of Christ. He is really performing well as Christs representative here on earth.

scidive

tommy2bad wrote: »

I think it's good that he got that far without mentioning abortion, euthanasia, homosexual marriage. I mean we know where the church stands on these things, a reminder of our duty to those less fortinuiate won't go astray.
At to being outraged that he hired people drawn from the worlds of economics, law and business management to study economic and administrative structures? Were you thinking that if he got more priests they could say another mass as a solution?

I think Jesus didn't say enough about poverty, He spent too much time going on about abortion, euthanasia, homosexual marriage. The pope needs to correct this deficit.

Just like the Bertie Ahern school of popularity its easy to be popular and 'man of the year' if you keep going on about the soft topics such as poverty and injustice that every one agrees on but avoid the difficult topics like abortion and homosexual marriage. A popular leader is not necessarily a good leader as we know only too well from our experience of Bertie Ahern.

tommy2bad

scidive wrote: »

Just like the Bertie Ahern school of popularity its easy to be popular and 'man of the year' if you keep going on about the soft topics such as poverty and injustice that every one agrees on but avoid the difficult topics like abortion and homosexual marriage. A popular leader is not necessarily a good leader as we know only too well from our experience of Bertie Ahern.

Soft topics that everyone agrees on? Wish I lived on your planet!
The hardest topics are poverty and injustice, we all pay lip service but never do anything.
As to banging on about the 'hard topics' no one cares anymore. The pope is just making himself and the church he leads irrelevant when he speaks about these topics.
We might not like it but that's the way it is. Do we want to be part of a church that has a single agenda, staying in the dark ages? or would it be better that we accept that this debate is now over and live with it. Getting on with living the gospel ourselves, you know the gospel that inconvient truth that demands we give our coat to the man who has none.
Mark 10:21-22 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

indy_man

scidive, are you caught up in Maria Divine Mercy prophecies. If you are, she is a false prophet, stay away from MDM. If so, that is probably for another thread anyway.

scidive

indy_man wrote: »

scidive, are you caught up in Maria Divine Mercy prophecies. If you are, she is a false prophet, stay away from MDM. If so, that is probably for another thread anyway.

I'm aware of mdm and I don't what its influence effecting this tread the focus is solely on Pope Francis.

scidive

tommy2bad wrote: »

Soft topics that everyone agrees on? Wish I lived on your planet!
The hardest topics are poverty and injustice, we all pay lip service but never do anything.
As to banging on about the 'hard topics' no one cares anymore. The pope is just making himself and the church he leads irrelevant when he speaks about these topics.
We might not like it but that's the way it is. Do we want to be part of a church that has a single agenda, staying in the dark ages? or would it be better that we accept that this debate is now over and live with it. Getting on with living the gospel ourselves, you know the gospel that inconvient truth that demands we give our coat to the man who has none.
Mark 10:21-22 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

You can't cherry pick the Gospel take the goods bits throw away the bits you don't like if you do your creating a new religion. If God says some act is a sin it will always be a sin in his eyes no matter what opinions you or the rest of society thinks.

tommy2bad

scidive wrote: »

You can't cherry pick the Gospel take the goods bits throw away the bits you don't like if you do your creating a new religion. If God says some act is a sin it will always be a sin in his eyes no matter what opinions you or the rest of society thinks.

Did I ever say it wasn't a sin? I don't think it is btw but my opinion isn't the subject we are discussing. Changing the emphasis to the sins we are more likely to commit isn't a bad tack.
Oh and we do change stuff, slavery used not to be a sin, in fact we thought God ordained it, nowadays you get funny looks for keeping slaves!

indy_man

Well i'm going to cherry pick a few now...

Proverbs c 16
19 Better be humble with the poor than share the booty with the proud.

Proverbs c 28
27 No one who gives to the poor will ever go short, but whoever closes his eyes will have curses in plenty.

Paslm 41
1 Blessed is anyone who cares for the poor and the weak; in time of trouble Yahweh rescues him.
2 Yahweh protects him, gives him life and happiness on earth. Do not abandon him to his enemies' pleasure!

Luke
12 Then he said to his host, 'When you give a lunch or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relations or rich neighbours, in case they invite you back and so repay you.
13 No; when you have a party, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind;
14 then you will be blessed, for they have no means to repay you and so you will be repaid when the upright rise again.'


Did I just make up a new religion?

scidive

tommy2bad wrote: »

Did I ever say it wasn't a sin? I don't think it is btw but my opinion isn't the subject we are discussing. Changing the emphasis to the sins we are more likely to commit isn't a bad tack.
Oh and we do change stuff, slavery used not to be a sin, in fact we thought God ordained it, nowadays you get funny looks for keeping slaves!

I know plenty of slaves today its just renamed differently people with big mortgages are slaves to the banks others stuck in menial jobs just earning enough to make ends meet.

scidive

indy_man wrote: »

Well i'm going to cherry pick a few now...

Proverbs c 16
19 Better be humble with the poor than share the booty with the proud.

Proverbs c 28
27 No one who gives to the poor will ever go short, but whoever closes his eyes will have curses in plenty.

Paslm 41
1 Blessed is anyone who cares for the poor and the weak; in time of trouble Yahweh rescues him.
2 Yahweh protects him, gives him life and happiness on earth. Do not abandon him to his enemies' pleasure!

Luke
12 Then he said to his host, 'When you give a lunch or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relations or rich neighbours, in case they invite you back and so repay you.
13 No; when you have a party, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind;
14 then you will be blessed, for they have no means to repay you and so you will be repaid when the upright rise again.'


Did I just make up a new religion?

The Catholic church has always thought humility its one of the virtues of having the holy spirit. The religious take a vow of poverty when they are ordained. A big part of humility was keeping it a secret only between you and God. As Jesus said let one hand not know what the other is doing . No where in the Bible says let the whole world know your humble.

tommy2bad

scidive wrote: »

I know plenty of slaves today its just renamed differently people with big mortgages are slaves to the banks others stuck in menial jobs just earning enough to make ends meet.

That's closer to indentured servitude. Slavery is a whole other ballgame that involves turning people into property, how Christians ever saw that as ok, boggles my mind.

indy_man

scidive wrote: »

The Catholic church has always thought humility its one of the virtues of having the holy spirit. The religious take a vow of poverty when they are ordained. A big part of humility was keeping it a secret only between you and God. As Jesus said let one hand not know what the other is doing . No where in the Bible says let the whole world know your humble.

Nope, its different when you are the leader of the Catholic church and Christs representative on Earth, in this case one has to lead by example.

scidive

indy_man wrote: »

Nope, its different when you are the leader of the Catholic church and Christs representative on Earth, in this case one has to lead by example.

Possible, argument could go both ways I think we've hit a stalemate.

indy_man

So do you believe Pope Francis is a valid Pope of a false prophet?

scidive

indy_man wrote: »

So do you believe Pope Francis is a valid Pope of a false prophet?

Who knows ? I'm not aware of any evidence to date to say hes a false prophet so for me he remains a valid Pope until there is strong evidence to say otherwise. I don't trust everything the media say either and I don't buy into the concept of him being the next great leader since Gandhi.

indy_man

Good, glad to hear you think he is a valid Pope. I'm happy enough with that. He may come more in line with your expecataions if you pray for him. He asked all to say 3 Hail Marys for him each day.

Take care, God Bless.

indy_man

The media will spin anything to suit themselves

http://gloria.tv/?media=482662

SoulandForm

scidive wrote: »

Just like the Bertie Ahern school of popularity its easy to be popular and 'man of the year' if you keep going on about the soft topics such as poverty and injustice that every one agrees on but avoid the difficult topics like abortion and homosexual marriage. A popular leader is not necessarily a good leader as we know only too well from our experience of Bertie Ahern.

Poverty and social injustice are not "soft topics". That said from what I personally have Pope Francis's approach to these issues does seem quite soft- he is certainly no John Chrysostom or Oscar Romero. I know though of two cases of people in the Church who go on about "social justice" and the "Church of the poor" but they than I found out that both were members of Fine Gael- they were only using those words as a spring board to attack others who found spiritual solace in "pomp and circumstance".

Im not a Roman Catholic but I really loved Pope Benedict- I found (find him!) a very humble and thoughtful man. I literally cried the day he stepped down. Pope Francis with his utterly ostentatious shows of simplicity I have grave doubts about. Clergy who say things like "who am I to judge (whoever)?" dont seem to realize that their role is not to personally judge anything and anyone but to make clear to the world the judgements God has already given the world- they are there to represent God.

Maybe its just that I because I loved Pope Benedict with his genuine humility and old world charm and intelligence Im being to harsh on his replacement but we will see.

SoulandForm

You could never imagine a magazine that runs so counter in its ethos to the ethos of the Gospel making Pope Benedict "Man of the Year".

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."

John 15:18-20

scidive

SoulandForm wrote: »

Poverty and social injustice are not "soft topics".

I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding about what I mean't re 'Soft topics'. Poverty and social injustice are major issues and have severe difficulties on those suffering from poverty and social injustice. However in general there are no serious consequences on those that speak out about poverty and social injustice because most people and governments and even the secular media are in agreement on these issues hence the term 'soft issues' that is no consequences on the speaker.

This is in contrast to were a person speaks out about practices in modern society that go against Gods laws such as divorce, same sex relationships, abortion ect. If a person was to publicly speak out about these issues the consequences on the speaker would be much more serious in that they would be attacked by the secular media, termed a bigot, hate mail/emails, and in some cases charged as a hate crime.

Benny_Cake

Another example of the informal style Pope Francis has taken. At this rate the Italians will be asking him to step down and enter politics.

An Italian man whose brother was shot dead in June has spoken of his shock when he answered the phone to Pope Francis, calling this week to offer his condolences.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/10233855/Ciao-Michele-its-Pope-Francis.html

SoulandForm

scidive wrote: »

This is in contrast to were a person speaks out about practices in modern society that go against Gods laws such as divorce, same sex relationships, abortion ect. If a person was to publicly speak out about these issues the consequences on the speaker would be much more serious in that they would be attacked by the secular media, termed a bigot, hate mail/emails, and in some cases charged as a hate crime.

Issues of social justice and opposition to militarism are very much connected with opposition to ideas of the moral validity of homosexual acts and "culture". I wont go into why here but feel free to private message me on this subject.

scidive

What sort of leadership is this !!! Pope Francis said, “Do you need to convince the other to become Catholic? No, no, no! Go out and meet him, he is your brother. This is enough. Go out and help him and Jesus will do the rest.
Francis tells people not to bother trying to convert others to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Jesus Himself said the exact opposite in what is called the Great Commission at the very end of Matthew’s Gospel: “Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world” (Matthew 28:19-20). In Timothy 4, " I urge you to preach the word, in season and out of season, reproving, rebuking or advising always with patience and providing instruction"

tommy2bad

scidive wrote: »

What sort of leadership is this !!! Pope Francis said, “Do you need to convince the other to become Catholic? No, no, no! Go out and meet him, he is your brother. This is enough. Go out and help him and Jesus will do the rest.
Francis tells people not to bother trying to convert others to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Jesus Himself said the exact opposite in what is called the Great Commission at the very end of Matthew’s Gospel: “Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world” (Matthew 28:19-20). In Timothy 4, " I urge you to preach the word, in season and out of season, reproving, rebuking or advising always with patience and providing instruction"

"Preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words" attributed to St Francis, it seems that Cardinal Bergoglio had something in mind choosing his papal name.

scidive

Here is a good article on the 'social Gospel' that highlights some of the problems that over emphases on preaching on social /poverty issues and not the complete gospel.

"As a student at fundamentalist Bob Jones University I can remember the preachers inveighing against what they called “the social gospel”. This was a watered down version of Christianity which avoided talk of sin and salvation, repentance and redemption. The cross and resurrection were studiously avoided to portray a compassionate Jesus who lived among the poor and whose chief ministry was healing the sick, preaching against the rich, criticizing the religious hypocrites. The “social gospellers” were all “liberals” who were forsaking the true message of the gospel in favor of soup kitchen Christianity. They were all for giving people bread, but not the bread of heaven. They were all for helping the poor have a better life, but not concerned about eternal life.
The problem with those who promote the social gospel is not that they feed the poor, are activists for justice and are work for healing and reconciliation, but that they put these things before the primary message of the gospel which is the old, old story of a fallen humanity in need of forgiveness and a loving God who sends his own Son into enemy territory to seek and to save that which was lost. Those who follow a social gospel reduce the life and work of Jesus Christ to that of an inspired healer–a social worker and a pacifist activist. Usually their activism and concern for the poor is linked with a political ideology, a desire to make the world a better place and the heresy of universalism i.e. “everybody will be saved by God’s mercy and love so we don’t have to preach repentance and salvation of souls or such a thing as heaven and hell.
The social gospel is a heresy, and like every heresy, it is not completely wrong. It is only half right. We are supposed to feed the hungry, house the homeless, heal the sick and work for justice and peace, but this is the fruit of our faith in Christ. It is the result of our redemption, not the primary point of our faith. The first objective is the salvation of our souls, and from this faith in Christ we are transformed into his likeness, and as we are transformed into his likeness we begin to do his work in the world. If we jump straight to the good works, then we are guilty of the old heresy of Pelagianism: trying to be good enough under our own steam."

Benny_Cake

scidive wrote: »

Here is a good article on the 'social Gospel' that highlights some of the problems that over emphases on preaching on social /poverty issues and not the complete gospel.

"As a student at fundamentalist Bob Jones University I can remember the preachers inveighing against what they called “the social gospel”. This was a watered down version of Christianity which avoided talk of sin and salvation, repentance and redemption. The cross and resurrection were studiously avoided to portray a compassionate Jesus who lived among the poor and whose chief ministry was healing the sick, preaching against the rich, criticizing the religious hypocrites. The “social gospellers” were all “liberals” who were forsaking the true message of the gospel in favor of soup kitchen Christianity. They were all for giving people bread, but not the bread of heaven. They were all for helping the poor have a better life, but not concerned about eternal life.
The problem with those who promote the social gospel is not that they feed the poor, are activists for justice and are work for healing and reconciliation, but that they put these things before the primary message of the gospel which is the old, old story of a fallen humanity in need of forgiveness and a loving God who sends his own Son into enemy territory to seek and to save that which was lost. Those who follow a social gospel reduce the life and work of Jesus Christ to that of an inspired healer–a social worker and a pacifist activist. Usually their activism and concern for the poor is linked with a political ideology, a desire to make the world a better place and the heresy of universalism i.e. “everybody will be saved by God’s mercy and love so we don’t have to preach repentance and salvation of souls or such a thing as heaven and hell.
The social gospel is a heresy, and like every heresy, it is not completely wrong. It is only half right. We are supposed to feed the hungry, house the homeless, heal the sick and work for justice and peace, but this is the fruit of our faith in Christ. It is the result of our redemption, not the primary point of our faith. The first objective is the salvation of our souls, and from this faith in Christ we are transformed into his likeness, and as we are transformed into his likeness we begin to do his work in the world. If we jump straight to the good works, then we are guilty of the old heresy of Pelagianism: trying to be good enough under our own steam."

Well, the preachers at Bob Jones University were also against the Catholic church: "..a satanic counterfeit, an ecclesiastic tyranny over the souls of men....It is the old harlot of the book of the Revelation—'the Mother of Harlots", according to Bob Jones Jr. They supported racial segregation and only allowed interracial dating in 2000. Not an institution I'd be using to bolster my position.

scidive

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Well, the preachers at Bob Jones University were also against the Catholic church: "..a satanic counterfeit, an ecclesiastic tyranny over the souls of men....It is the old harlot of the book of the Revelation—'the Mother of Harlots", according to Bob Jones Jr. They supported racial segregation and only allowed interracial dating in 2000. Not an institution I'd be using to bolster my position.

I imagine you get all sorts of folk and view points passing through the doors of any university let alone the above but the article still remains valid and very relevant.

SoulandForm

scidive wrote: »

I imagine you get all sorts of folk and view points passing through the doors of any university let alone the above but the article still remains valid and very relevant.

No Bob Jones is a private Baptist university that officially held pretty evil views on race. There is something a bit wrong though when people get up all morally outraged by racism but dont do so about other sins just because those sins are acceptable in the eyes of the world.

scidive

Its not all one way traffic when it comes to praise of Pope Francis. A high profile critic of the Pope from his home country Argentinia Marcelo González, of Panorama Católico Internacional, who knows the Church of Argentina as well as the palm of his hand to send us a report on the new pope. Here it goes:

Of all the unthinkable candidates, Jorge Mario Bergoglio is perhaps the worst. Not because he openly professes doctrines against the faith and morals, but because, judging from his work as Archbishop of Buenos Aires, faith and moral seem to have been irrelevant to him.

A sworn enemy of the Traditional Mass, he has only allowed imitations of it in the hands of declared enemies of the ancient liturgy. He has persecuted every single priest who made an effort to wear a cassock, preach with firmness, or that was simply interested in Summorum Pontificum.

Famous for his inconsistency (at times, for the unintelligibility of his addresses and homilies), accustomed to the use of coarse, demagogical, and ambiguous expressions, it cannot be said that his magisterium is heterodox, but rather non-existent for how confusing it is.

His entourage in the Buenos Aires Curia, with the exception of a few clerics, has not been characterized by the virtue of their actions. Several are under grave suspicion of moral misbehavior.

He has not missed any occasion for holding acts in which he lent his Cathedral to Protestants, Muslims, Jews, and even to partisan groups in the name of an impossible and unnecessary interreligious dialogue. He is famous for his meetings with protestants in the Luna Park arena where, together with preacher of the Pontifical House, Raniero Cantalamessa, he was "blessed" by Protestant ministers, in a common act of worship in which he, in practice, accepted the validity of the "powers" of the TV-pastors.

This election is incomprehensible: he is not a polyglot, he has no Curial experience, he does not shine for his sanctity, he is loose in doctrine and liturgy, he has not fought against abortion and only very weakly against homosexual "marriage" [approved with practically no opposition from the episcopate], he has no manners to honor the Pontifical Throne. He has never fought for anything else than to remain in positions of power.

It really cannot be what Benedict wanted for the Church. And he does not seem to have any of the conditions required to continue his work.

May God help His Church. One can never dismiss, as humanly hard as it may seem, the possibility of a conversion... and, nonetheless, the future terrifies us.

The above is a personal assessment by the author and does not indicate any opinion of this blog or its contributors. [See also: Letter of Cardinal Bergoglio to Carmelites regarding the pending approval of "same sex marriage"

hinault

scidive wrote: »

Its not all one way traffic when it comes to praise of Pope Benedict. A high profile critic of the Pope from his home country Argentinia Marcelo González, of Panorama Católico Internacional, who knows the Church of Argentina as well as the palm of his hand to send us a report on the new pope. Here it goes:

Of all the unthinkable candidates, Jorge Mario Bergoglio is perhaps the worst. Not because he openly professes doctrines against the faith and morals, but because, judging from his work as Archbishop of Buenos Aires, faith and moral seem to have been irrelevant to him.

A sworn enemy of the Traditional Mass, he has only allowed imitations of it in the hands of declared enemies of the ancient liturgy. He has persecuted every single priest who made an effort to wear a cassock, preach with firmness, or that was simply interested in Summorum Pontificum.

Famous for his inconsistency (at times, for the unintelligibility of his addresses and homilies), accustomed to the use of coarse, demagogical, and ambiguous expressions, it cannot be said that his magisterium is heterodox, but rather non-existent for how confusing it is.

His entourage in the Buenos Aires Curia, with the exception of a few clerics, has not been characterized by the virtue of their actions. Several are under grave suspicion of moral misbehavior.

He has not missed any occasion for holding acts in which he lent his Cathedral to Protestants, Muslims, Jews, and even to partisan groups in the name of an impossible and unnecessary interreligious dialogue. He is famous for his meetings with protestants in the Luna Park arena where, together with preacher of the Pontifical House, Raniero Cantalamessa, he was "blessed" by Protestant ministers, in a common act of worship in which he, in practice, accepted the validity of the "powers" of the TV-pastors.

This election is incomprehensible: he is not a polyglot, he has no Curial experience, he does not shine for his sanctity, he is loose in doctrine and liturgy, he has not fought against abortion and only very weakly against homosexual "marriage" [approved with practically no opposition from the episcopate], he has no manners to honor the Pontifical Throne. He has never fought for anything else than to remain in positions of power.

It really cannot be what Benedict wanted for the Church. And he does not seem to have any of the conditions required to continue his work.

May God help His Church. One can never dismiss, as humanly hard as it may seem, the possibility of a conversion... and, nonetheless, the future terrifies us.

The above is a personal assessment by the author and does not indicate any opinion of this blog or its contributors. [See also: Letter of Cardinal Bergoglio to Carmelites regarding the pending approval of "same sex marriage"

The Traditionalist wing in the Catholic church have been excoriating in the comments about Pope Francis.
However Pope Benedict too also received criticism from the Traditionalist wing when he was Pope.
And for many Catholics, Pope Benedict would have been viewed as being more
traditionalist than Pope Francis!

Pope Francis has attempted to bring a less formal approach to the papacy.

Vanity Fair's imprimatur is meaningless.

scidive

The author of the above article has a fair point when he states

scidive wrote: »

Famous for his inconsistency (at times, for the unintelligibility of his addresses and homilies), accustomed to the use of coarse, demagogical, and ambiguous expressions, it cannot be said that his magisterium is heterodox, but rather non-existent for how confusing it is.

For instant in a message by Pope Francis in this mornings mass he gave a homily which is a good example of the above quote.

"MICHELANGELO NASCA
ROME
Light is the main symbol of Christianity. It characterises and adequately captures the essence of Christianity. The light of the world on the other hand is an “artificial” light. This was the focus of Pope Francis’ second mass in St. Martha’s House since the end of the brief summer break.

“You can know everything; you can have knowledge of all things and this light on things. But the light of Jesus is something else. It is not a light of ignorance, no! It’s a light of wisdom and sagacity, but it is something other than the light of the world. The light that the world offers us is an artificial light, strong, perhaps – but that of Jesus is stronger, eh! - strong like a firework, like a flash of photography. Instead, the light of Jesus is a mild light, it is a quiet light, it is a light of peace, it’s like the light on Christmas night: without pretence,” Francis said in his homily, published on the Vatican Radio website.

Sometimes we inevitably find ourselves blinded by the wrong kind of light, the kind that brings one into the limelight or the light of personal success that fulfills one’s own interests. We often give more importance to appearing rather than being. But this glimmer of light could be the devil in disguise, “an angel of light” who “likes to imitate Jesus and do good, he speaks to us quietly, as he spoke to Jesus after the fast in the desert.” “The light of Jesus, he continued, “doesn’t put on a show. It’s a light that comes into the heart … It’s a light that speaks to the heart, and also a light that offers you the Cross. If we, in our inner light are meek, if we hear the voice of Jesus in the heart and look on the Cross without fear: that is the light of Jesus.”

indy_man

From interview with Pope Benedict:
"Benedict also commented during the meeting that the more he observes the "charisma" of his successor, Pope Francis, the more he realizes that his decision to resign the papacy was "the will of God." "

You seem to be hell bent on knocking Pope Francis. Pope Benedict thinks the opposite to you.

Pope John 23rd had a great motto , 'Obedience and Peace' for me I am going to remain obedient to Francis, since he became Pope he has been exemplary. I was worried when I heard before about his crack down on Latin mass in Argentina, hopefully that will change.

You know, before for a good many years most of the media about the Catholic church was child abuse now we get media for a humble peace loving Pope that many love and is helping many lost sheep return to the flock and then some people still can't help but to find new ways to dig at the church. He is using his influence in many great ways, look at his calls for prayer for peace in Syria.

hinault

indy_man wrote: »

From interview with Pope Benedict:
"Benedict also commented during the meeting that the more he observes the "charisma" of his successor, Pope Francis, the more he realizes that his decision to resign the papacy was "the will of God." "

You seem to be hell bent on knocking Pope Francis. Pope Benedict thinks the opposite to you.

Pope John 23rd had a great motto , 'Obedience and Peace' for me I am going to remain obedient to Francis, since he became Pope he has been exemplary. I was worried when I heard before about his crack down on Latin mass in Argentina, hopefully that will change.

You know, before for a good many years most of the media about the Catholic church was child abuse now we get media for a humble peace loving Pope that many love and is helping many lost sheep return to the flock and then some people still can't help but to find new ways to dig at the church. He is using his influence in many great ways, look at his calls for prayer for peace in Syria.

Pope Benedict XVI made no such comment about his resignation being "the will of God"

http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2528/pope_benedicts_secretary_mystical_experience_story_is_false.aspx#.UiZRVjasjlM

http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/benedict-xvi-visits-castel-gandolfo

scidive

indy_man wrote: »

From interview with Pope Benedict:
"
You know, before for a good many years most of the media about the Catholic church was child abuse now we get media for a humble peace loving Pope that many love and is helping many lost sheep return to the flock and then some people still can't help but to find new ways to dig at the church. He is using his influence in many great ways, look at his calls for prayer for peace in Syria.

Yes the Catholic church is getting great press and gaining popularity which is positive on the surface but at what cost . As I said previously I worry that the price of popularity is compromise especially when Pope Francis has a history of leaning to the left.

lmaopml

scidive wrote: »

The author of the above article has a fair point when he states....

Famous for his inconsistency (at times, for the unintelligibility of his addresses and homilies), accustomed to the use of coarse, demagogical, and ambiguous expressions, it cannot be said that his magisterium is heterodox, but rather non-existent for how confusing it is.

For instant in a message by Pope Francis in this mornings mass he gave a homily which is a good example of the above quote.

"MICHELANGELO NASCA
ROME
Light is the main symbol of Christianity. It characterises and adequately captures the essence of Christianity. The light of the world on the other hand is an “artificial” light. This was the focus of Pope Francis’ second mass in St. Martha’s House since the end of the brief summer break.....................

scidive, I think there might be something wrong with the comprehension skills of the author of the article if he doesn't understand what Pope Francis meant by light and darkness? To me what he means here is perfectly clear....Jesus is the light of the world who speaks to the heart - and the darkness of the world may pose as light but it's false...be discerning in other words.

Seems clear enough.

His homily is in full here....much better read in context...

http://www.news.va/en/news/a-gentle-humble-light-full-of-love

These are the readings for today and the Gospel that inspired the homily...

1 Thes 5:1-6, 9-11 (St. Paul to the Thesselonians )

Concerning times and seasons, brothers and sisters,
you have no need for anything to be written to you.
For you yourselves know very well
that the day of the Lord will come like a thief at night.
When people are saying, “Peace and security,”
then sudden disaster comes upon them,
like labor pains upon a pregnant woman,
and they will not escape.

But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness,
for that day to overtake you like a thief.
For all of you are children of the light
and children of the day.
We are not of the night or of darkness.
Therefore, let us not sleep as the rest do,
but let us stay alert and sober.
For God did not destine us for wrath,
but to gain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep
we may live together with him.
Therefore, encourage one another and build one another up,
as indeed you do.

The Responsorial Psalm 27:1,4,13-14

R. (13) I believe that I shall see the good things of the Lord in the land of the living.
The LORD is my light and my salvation;
whom should I fear?
The LORD is my life’s refuge;
of whom should I be afraid?
R. I believe that I shall see the good things of the Lord in the land of the living.
One thing I ask of the LORD;
this I seek:
To dwell in the house of the LORD
all the days of my life,
That I may gaze on the loveliness of the LORD
and contemplate his temple.
R. I believe that I shall see the good things of the Lord in the land of the living.
I believe that I shall see the bounty of the LORD
in the land of the living.
Wait for the LORD with courage;
be stouthearted, and wait for the LORD.
R. I believe that I shall see the good things of the Lord in the land of the living

...and The Gospel...

Luke 4:31-37

Jesus went down to Capernaum, a town of Galilee.
He taught them on the sabbath,
and they were astonished at his teaching
because he spoke with authority.
In the synagogue there was a man with the spirit of an unclean demon,
and he cried out in a loud voice,
“What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth?
Have you come to destroy us?
I know who you are–the Holy One of God!”
Jesus rebuked him and said, “Be quiet! Come out of him!”
Then the demon threw the man down in front of them
and came out of him without doing him any harm.
They were all amazed and said to one another,
“What is there about his word?
For with authority and power he commands the unclean spirits,
and they come out.”
And news of him spread everywhere in the surrounding region.

Also, Pope Benedict co-authored the most recent encyclical with Pope Francis....in this the 'Year of Faith', it's called the 'Lumen Fidei' or the 'Light of Faith', which is very pertinent to the message that both Popes have spoken of together. I highly recommend reading it, it's a treasure...

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20130629_enciclica-lumen-fidei_en.html



I think the author should have read the readings and contemplated the Scriptures in the Liturgy of the Word, and perhaps he may have understood what Pope Francis speaks of having done so. It's fairly clear to me anyways. Have to say I like him, I liked Benedict too. I'd tend to trust the Holy Spirit.

tommy2bad

scidive wrote: »

The author of the above article has a fair point when he states

For instant in a message by Pope Francis in this mornings mass he gave a homily which is a good example of the above quote.

"MICHELANGELO NASCA
ROME
Light is the main symbol of Christianity. It characterises and adequately captures the essence of Christianity. The light of the world on the other hand is an “artificial” light. This was the focus of Pope Francis’ second mass in St. Martha’s House since the end of the brief summer break.

“You can know everything; you can have knowledge of all things and this light on things. But the light of Jesus is something else. It is not a light of ignorance, no! It’s a light of wisdom and sagacity, but it is something other than the light of the world. The light that the world offers us is an artificial light, strong, perhaps – but that of Jesus is stronger, eh! - strong like a firework, like a flash of photography. Instead, the light of Jesus is a mild light, it is a quiet light, it is a light of peace, it’s like the light on Christmas night: without pretence,” Francis said in his homily, published on the Vatican Radio website.

Sometimes we inevitably find ourselves blinded by the wrong kind of light, the kind that brings one into the limelight or the light of personal success that fulfills one’s own interests. We often give more importance to appearing rather than being. But this glimmer of light could be the devil in disguise, “an angel of light” who “likes to imitate Jesus and do good, he speaks to us quietly, as he spoke to Jesus after the fast in the desert.” “The light of Jesus, he continued, “doesn’t put on a show. It’s a light that comes into the heart … It’s a light that speaks to the heart, and also a light that offers you the Cross. If we, in our inner light are meek, if we hear the voice of Jesus in the heart and look on the Cross without fear: that is the light of Jesus.”

Sounds like a meditation on St Pauls 'through a glass darkly' more than an example of inconsistency, or the use of coarse, demagogical, and ambiguous expressions.
Eye of the beholder I suppose, or in this case ear but ykwim.

hinault

lmaopml wrote: »

Have to say I like him, I liked Benedict too. I'd tend to trust the Holy Spirit.

The approach taken by Pope Francis to the papacy is wholly different to the approach taken by Pope Benedict XVI.

Pope Benedict appeared to wish to retain and enhance the formality of the Office of Pope.
Whereas Pope Francis appears to advocate a more informal approach to the Office of Pope.

Are these differing sartorial approaches indicative of some deeper difference of emphasis when it comes to Church policy and doctrine?

Like you, I am prepared to trust that the Holy Ghost judged fit to ordain both men to be Pope because of their core adherence to and advocacy for the Faith as entrusted to man by Jesus Christ.

Having said that, I do hold a very special regard for the TLM.

lmaopml

Indeed. I quite like Tridentine but don't mind the Novus Ordo either. I do like a bit of singing tbh, some Latin hymns and of course I quite like some of the hymns in english too. Irish people seem to lose their voices for some reason at Mass, it's a cultural thing I think, probably from penal times when people really had to be quiet..lol...sometimes I'm the only one singing in an entire section of some parishes ( and I can't sing, which makes it worse ) I often wonder why we're so shy at Church knowing the amazing gift Mass is.

I think it's nice that both forms are available. I don't believe Pope Benedict wanted to get rid of one form over the other, just encourage both, and not lose that heritage - I think Pope Francis is of the same vein, he just wants people to honestly worship God when they go to worship. Myself, I think both of them have a bit of a job dealing with people who only like one form, and get 'fearful' about the Popes.

I don't understand it, both are Mass and both are worship, and even better Jesus Christ himself is there at every single one, all the Angels and Saints are with us singing together as one in praise and worship to Christ our King - We should smile more about that methinks, and like you say, we need to trust the Holy Spirit too.

Manach

Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur

lmaopml

Manach wrote: »

Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur

Of course I knew exactly what you said, no googling here :pac:

Tantum Ergo Sacramentum - now there's a Latin Hymn every Catholic should know - beautiful.

hinault

lmaopml wrote: »

Indeed. I quite like Tridentine but don't mind the Novus Ordo either. I do like a bit of singing tbh, some Latin hymns and of course I quite like some of the hymns in english too. Irish people seem to lose their voices for some reason at Mass, it's a cultural thing I think, probably from penal times when people really had to be quiet..lol...sometimes I'm the only one singing in an entire section of some parishes ( and I can't sing, which makes it worse ) I often wonder why we're so shy at Church knowing the amazing gift Mass is.

I think it's nice that both forms are available. I don't believe Pope Benedict wanted to get rid of one form over the other, just encourage both, and not lose that heritage - I think Pope Francis is of the same vein, he just wants people to honestly worship God when they go to worship. Myself, I think both of them have a bit of a job dealing with people who only like one form, and get 'fearful' about the Popes.

I don't understand it, both are Mass and both are worship, and even better Jesus Christ himself is there at every single one, all the Angels and Saints are with us singing together as one in praise and worship to Christ our King - We should smile more about that methinks, and like you say, we need to trust the Holy Spirit too.

This might be of interest

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/benedetto-xvi-benedict-xvi-benedicto-xvi-27518/

scidive

Whats up with Pope Francis again ! With all the evils in the world he turns on Catholics again calling ideological catholics a serious illness to the church. The definition of ideology is the set of beliefs characteristic of a social group or institution. So in effect Francis is stating that Catholics that abide by the churchs set of God given beliefs are an illness to the church.


Speaking at daily Mass last Thursday, Pope Francis warned Christians against turning their faith into a rigid ideology.

“The faith passes, so to speak, through a distiller and becomes ideology,” he said, according to Radio Vatican. “And ideology does not beckon [people]. In ideologies there is not Jesus: in his tenderness, his meekness. And ideologies are rigid, always. Of every sign: rigid.

“And when a Christian becomes a disciple of the ideology, he has lost the faith: he is no longer a disciple of Jesus, he is a disciple of this attitude of thought… For this reason Jesus said to them: ‘You have taken away the key of knowledge.’ The knowledge of Jesus is transformed into an ideological and also moralistic knowledge, because these close the door with many requirements.”

“The faith becomes ideology and ideology frightens, ideology chases away the people, distances, distances the people and distances of the Church of the people,” Francis added. “But it is a serious illness, this of ideological Christians. It is an illness, but it is not new, eh?”