Operation Northwoods born again ?

whydave

Did the US dust off Op.Northwoods and change Cuba to Islam ?

My name is URL

Probably not

Brown Bomber

whydave wrote: »

Did the US dust off Op.Northwoods and change Cuba to Islam ?

I think what they did is brush off the "red menace" of the Soviet Union and just replaced it with Islam. Cold War >>> War on Terror. Same ***** making fistfulls of dollars.

BloodBath

My name is URL wrote: »

Probably not

I love how people can rubbish the possibilities that these things are happening so easily. It's pretty much a proven fact that Kennedy was killed by people at the top. Who's to say these same people didn't greenlight such operations?

The gulf of Tonkin incident is a proven false flag operation that happened 1 year after the assassination of Kennedy.

LBJ and his associates were behind both the JFK assassination and the gulf of tonkin false flag operation.

claypigeon777

It's pretty much a proven fact that Kennedy was killed by people at the top.

No it isn't.

JFK was shot in the back of the neck and the back of the head by two bullets that were fired from the 6th floor window of the Texas School Book Despository. A man matching Oswald's description was seen firing a rifle from the 6th floor window. Oswald's palm print was found on the dissembled rifle barrel and fibres from his workshirt were found on the butt of the gun. He brought the gun to work that day in a long paper package he said contained curtain rods. A bullet was found on Texas Governor Connally's stretcher at Parkland hospital and two bullet fragments were found on the front seat of the limousine of the limousine which all could be matched to Oswald's rifle excluding all over weapons. Oswald was photographed by his wife with the rifle and with the revolver he used to kill a Dallas police officer. He ordered the rifle and revolver from a sporting goods magazine using his habitual pseudonym A. Hiddell and the order form was filled out in his handwriting and posted to a post office box he was using.
The FBI investigated Oswald's every breath from childhood right up to the moment of his death.
The guy acted alone.

BloodBath

Good job reiterating the official story. If you spent some time analyzing the facts like I have you would see it's bull****. Go to the JFK thread on this forum if you want some factual information. The very bullet that was matched to Oswald's gun was 100% planted.

Not to mention the numerous whistle blowers connected to the CIA and LBJ.

claypigeon777

BloodBath wrote: »

Good job reiterating the official story. If you spent some time analyzing the facts like I have you would see it's bull****. Go to the JFK thread on this forum if you want some factual information. The very bullet that was matched to Oswald's gun was 100% planted.

Not to mention the numerous whistle blowers connected to the CIA and LBJ.

The bullet was found on Governor Connally's stretcher by a hospital orderly who passed it to a Secret Service agent who passed to the FBI who compared the bullet with a bullet tested from Oswald's rifle. The markings on the metal jacket of the bullet matched the rifling on Oswald's weapon.
For a conspiracy theory to work the hospital orderly, the Secret Service agent, the FBI agents who presented the bullet to the FBI crime lab and the FBI forensics experts who compared the bullet to a test bullet from the Oswald rifle must have all been involved in the conspiracy?

BloodBath

Go to the JFK thread here and read my posts and you will see why it is impossible that CE399 was any of the shots.

You realise the Warren commission was a Presidential investigation ran by the same people responsible for killing JFK right? The official storyline being quoted here is dictated by this sham of an investigation. If you spent as much time as I have researching it you would see it's a sham.

I'm not some conspiracy nut who hops on any conspiracy bandwagon. I went into it with an open mind and based my conclusion on my own research.

For a conspiracy theory to work the hospital orderly, the Secret Service agent, the FBI agents who presented the bullet to the FBI crime lab and the FBI forensics experts who compared the bullet to a test bullet from the Oswald rifle must have all been involved in the conspiracy?

No they wouldn't. How did you come to that conclusion. It only takes 1 person to plant the bullet. A bullet that had been fired from Oswald's rifle.

claypigeon777

No they wouldn't. How did you come to that conclusion. It only takes 1 person to plant the bullet. A bullet that had been fired from Oswald's rifle.

A person involved in the conspiracy who would presumably have been tasked with planting the bullet could not have known in advance that BOTH JFK and Connally would be wounded and would not have known Darrell C. Tomlinson would find the bullet.

BloodBath

How would it be lost when it was placed in plain sight on Connally's stretcher. Now instead of coming up with ridiculous arguments why don't you go to the JFK thread and refute the evidence I have shown to prove CE399 could not possibly have been any of the shots. I am still waiting on anybody to do so with evidence.

claypigeon777

BloodBath wrote: »

How would it be lost when it was placed in plain sight on Connally's stretcher. Now instead of coming up with ridiculous arguments why don't you go to the JFK thread and refute the evidence I have shown to prove CE399 could not possibly have been any of the shots. I am still waiting on anybody to do so with evidence.

It was not in plain sight. It was only discovered by chance.
If it had not been found the person who planted the bullet would have had to go to extraordinary lengths to take the rifle from the Paine garage without Oswald knowing to fire a bullet to be planted at Parkland hospital and also to enter Parkland hospital and plant the bullet without being seen by the Secret Service and cops who had sealed off the hospital.

BloodBath

You are assuming a lot of information about Oswald here. There is a lot of evidence linking oswald to potential conspirators including the CIA. He may have even been in on the conspiracy only to be double crossed, framed and murdered as a patsy. If you read transcripts from his police interview and statements from Jack Ruby after his killing of Oswald you would see there is evidence to back this up. As Oswald said himself. "I'm a Patsy"

Secret Service and cops

Again you are assuming that none of the secret service or cops were in on the conspiracy.

claypigeon777

BloodBath wrote: »

You are assuming a lot of information about Oswald here. There is a lot of evidence linking oswald to potential conspirators including the CIA. He may have even been in on the conspiracy only to be double crossed, framed and murdered as a patsy. If you read transcripts from his police interview and statements from Jack Ruby after his killing of Oswald you would see there is evidence to back this up. As Oswald said himself. "I'm a Patsy"



Again you are assuming that none of the secret service or cops were in on the conspiracy.

Can we stick to what we have been discussing for the moment? You claimed the bullet was planted and I raised objections to your claim.
Can you please address the points I made?

BloodBath

What points? I have addressed them. You are dismissing it on the basis of what? I told you already it would only have taken 1 cop or secret service agent to plant the bullet.

Care to address the impossibility that CE399 was any of the 3 shots fired?

claypigeon777

BloodBath wrote: »

What points? I have addressed them. You are dismissing it on the basis of what? I told you already it would only have taken 1 cop or secret service agent to plant the bullet.

Care to address the impossibility that CE399 was any of the 3 shots fired?

Darrell C. Tomlinson only found the bullet by chance so how would a cop or secret service agent have planted the bullet and known that it would be found? If only one secret service agent or cop was involved in planting the bullet presumably that very same person would have to have burglarized the Paine household to get the rifle from the garage and fire a bullet and return the rifle without Oswald knowing? Don't you think that is highly unlikely and highly risky? If the cop or secret service agent was discovered planting the bullet the risk of exposure is enormous isn't it for the leaders of the conspiracy are they not?
Furthermore the person planting the bullet would have to have known that Connally would also be hit by bullets wouldn't he?
He would have had to have known before the shooting even occurred so to have a bullet ready to be planted?
That makes your scenario even more unlikely.

BloodBath

The way you critically analyze things is severely flawed. Your skepticism is clouding your judgement. Your assumptions do not make sense. I'll break down your post.

Darrell C. Tomlinson only found the bullet by chance so how would a cop or secret service agent have planted the bullet and known that it would be found?

So you're saying that nobody would have discovered the massive round lying in almost perfect condition on Connallys table? Hypothetically yes it's possibly but highly unlikely.

If only one secret service agent or cop was involved in planting the bullet presumably that very same person would have to have burglarized the Paine household to get the rifle from the garage and fire a bullet and return the rifle without Oswald knowing? Don't you think that is highly unlikely and highly risky?

No they wouldn't. Again you are assuming that if what I'm saying is true that means Oswald is totally innocent. There are many possibilities for this. It's typical of critics to pick pieces of information that are unknown instead of trying to refute facts that are known.

If the cop or secret service agent was discovered planting the bullet the risk of exposure is enormous isn't it for the leaders of the conspiracy are they not?

In the confusion and mass Hysteria it would not have been difficult to plant it. How hard do you think it would be to stand near the stretcher with the bullet in your hand and place it when nobody is looking. Even if somebody saw them they could say look what was on the stretcher.

Furthermore the person planting the bullet would have to have known that Connally would also be hit by bullets wouldn't he? He would have had to have known before the shooting even occurred so to have a bullet ready to be planted?

If he was planting it before the event happened then this statement would be true. He could have planted this bullet anywhere. On JFK's stretcher, in the car, it's not important where. What is important is that this was the main piece of evidence used to link the shooting to LHO's rifle. We're talking about a CIA led operation here. Something like that is playground stuff compared to some of the operations they execute.

That makes your scenario even more unlikely.

What's unlikely is the fact that CE399 was a bullet from any of the reported shots that day. Why don't you stop postulating on minor details and address the issue of CE399 in the main JFK thread on this forum like I've asked you to do.

claypigeon777

So you're saying that nobody would have discovered the massive round lying in almost perfect condition on Connallys table? Hypothetically yes it's possibly but highly unlikely.

A bullet is not massive. It is very small. It could easily have rolled off the stretcher and never been found. A cleaner could have scooped it up with other trash and not even have been aware of it. It was pure chance that the hospital orderly saw the bullet and picked it up.

No they wouldn't. Again you are assuming that if what I'm saying is true that means Oswald is totally innocent. There are many possibilities for this. It's typical of critics to pick pieces of information that are unknown instead of trying to refute facts that are known.

The rifle was stored at the Paine residence. So to get a bullet fired by Oswald's rifle and plant it on the hospital stretcher then the conspirator would have to have taken the rifle from the Paine residence fire the bullet and then returned it again.

In the confusion and mass Hysteria it would not have been difficult to plant it. How hard do you think it would be to stand near the stretcher with the bullet in your hand and place it when nobody is looking. Even if somebody saw them they could say look what was on the stretcher.

The bullet have to be planted by someone who got through the ring of cops who surrounded the hospital.

If he was planting it before the event happened then this statement would be true. He could have planted this bullet anywhere.

How would he have known BOTH JFK and Connally would be wounded?

On JFK's stretcher, in the car, it's not important where.

It is important where because of the risk of being caught.

What is important is that this was the main piece of evidence used to link the shooting to LHO's rifle. We're talking about a CIA led operation here. Something like that is playground stuff compared to some of the operations they execute.

Just because it is the CIA involved does not mean they are superhumans who can pull off the impossible.

What's unlikely is the fact that CE399 was none of the reported shots that day. Why don't you stop postulating on minor details and address the issue of CE399 in the main JFK thread on this forum like I've asked you to do

There is nothing at all unusual about a bullet passing through two men and remaining intact.

Indeed that is what the 6.5mm Western round was designed to do.

John Lattimer performed the experiment below with the same type of rifle and the same type of rifle round which he fired through solid wood.

BloodBath

A bullet is not massive. It is very small. It could easily have rolled off the stretcher and never been found. A cleaner could have scooped it up with other trash and not even have been aware of it. It was pure chance that the hospital orderly saw the bullet and picked it up.

In the case of this rifle round and in relation to other bullets yes it is very large and hard to miss. Cleaners don't just randomly bundle up heavy unseen items and throw them in the bin.

The rifle was stored at the Paine residence. So to get a bullet fired by Oswald's rifle and plant it on the hospital stretcher then the conspirator would have to have taken the rifle from the Paine residence fire the bullet and then returned it again.

Again you are assuming that nobody that knew Oswald had access to the gun during or before Oswald's ownership of it. This is circumstantial and unknown. Try sticking to the most important known facts instead of pointlessly posturing on unknown pieces of information.

The bullet have to be planted by someone who got through the ring of cops who surrounded the hospital.

Not if they were a cop or secret service agent as has been said 3-4 times already.

How would he have known BOTH JFK and Connally would be wounded?

I've already answered this question.

There is nothing at all unusual about a bullet passing through two men and remaining intact.

Indeed that is what the 6.5mm Western round was designed to do.

John Lattimer performed the experiment below with the same type of rifle and the same type of rifle round which he fired through solid wood.

Pine is a soft wood. The density and mass of bones is far higher. There have been multiple tests with the same rifle/rounds fired through bones and not one of them could recreate the lack of damage to the bullet. All of them suffered large deformation.

This is not the thread for it either. I'm not going to re-write everything I have already written in this thread.

Now if you want to read at least the last few pages of the thread linked there and respond then please do. This thread is not the place to continue this discussion.

claypigeon777

BloodBath wrote: »

In the case of this rifle round and in relation to other bullets yes it is very large and hard to miss. Cleaners don't just randomly bundle up heavy unseen items and throw them in the bin.

A 6.5mm is less than 3cm long. It's a small object that a cleaner or someother person would not know was a bullet. It could be scraped up with other rubbish and end up in the trash.

Again you are assuming that nobody that knew Oswald had access to the gun during or before Oswald's ownership of it. This is circumstantial and unknown. Try sticking to the most important known facts instead of pointlessly posturing on unknown pieces of information.

The only people who knew Oswald owned a rifle and a revolver were himself and his wife Marina. The rifle was kept stored wrapped in a blanket in the Paine residence garage.

Not if they were a cop or secret service agent as has been said 3-4 times already.

Who? Every cop and secret service agent who was on duty at Parkland hospital is known. Why would the lead conspirators who would have presumably put him up to planting the bullet have taken the risk of him exposing them?

I've already answered this question.

There is no way anyone would have known in advance that BOTH Kennedy and Connally would be hit and have a bullet from Oswald's rifle and knew he would have a bullet from Oswald's rifle ready to plant on Connally's stretcher and knew it would be found.

Pine is a soft wood. The density and mass of bones is far higher. There have been multiple tests with the same rifle/rounds fired through bones and not one of them could recreate the lack of damage to the bullet. All of them suffered large deformation.

A bullet than can penetrate that depth of wood without deformity can wound to men and smash bone.

At full speed the bullet would mangle when striking bone.
However the bullet would have slowed considerably when it passed through JFK's neck entering the back of the neck to the right of the spine and exiting the base of the windpipe. It was moving more slowly and yawing as it struck Connally in the back and it was passing sideways when it struck his fifth rib and passed through his wrist. It landed base first in the flesh of his right thigh. At slower speeds it was shown that the same round could smash bone without suffering deformity.

This was the opinion of Drs Olivier and Dziemian who conducted a series of simulation tests for the Warren Commission:

Both Drs. Olivier and Dziemian expressed the Opinion that one bullet caused all the wounds on Governor Connally.310 The wound to the Governor's wrist was explained by circumstances where the bullet passed through the Governor's chest, lost substantial velocity in doing so, tumbled through the wrist, and then slightly penetrated the Governor's left thigh.311 Thus, the results of the wound ballistics tests support the conclusions of Governor Connally's doctors that all his wounds were caused by one bullet.312

In addition, the wound ballistics tests indicated that it was most probable that the same bullet passed through the President's neck and then proceeded to inflict all the wounds on the Governor. That conclusion was reached by Drs. Olivier and Dziemian based on the medical evidence on the wounds of the President and the Governor and the tests they performed.313 It was their opinion that the wound on the Governor's wrist would have been more extensive had the bullet which inflicted that injury merely passed through the Governor's chest exiting at a velocity of approximately 1,500 feet per second.

Page 585

Thus, the Governor's wrist wound indicated that the bullet passed through the President's neck, began to yaw in the air between the President and the Governor, and then lost substantially more velocity than 400 feet per second in passing through the Governor's chest.314 A bullet which was yawing on entering into the Governor's back would lose substantially more velocity in passing through his body than a pristine bullet.315 In addition, the greater flattening of the bullet. that struck the animal's rib (Commission Exhibit No. 853) than the bullet which presumably struck the Governor's rib (Commission Exhibit No. 399) indicates that the animal bullet was traveling at a greater velocity.316 That suggests that the bullet which entered the Governor's chest had already lost velocity by passing through the President's neck.317 Moreover, the large wound on the Governor's back would be explained by a bullet which was yawing although that type of wound might also be accounted for by a tangential striking.318

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-10.html

BloodBath

A 6.5mm is less than 3cm long.

By bullet standards that is quite large and heavy in a state with the highest gun ownership in America, who have one of he highest gun ownerships in the world. Texans aren't ignorant to what bullets look like, especially directly after the assassination of the president.

The only people who knew Oswald owned a rifle and a revolver were himself and his wife Marina. The rifle was kept stored wrapped in a blanket in the Paine residence garage.

I know for a fact that this is not true. George de Mohrenschildt and his wife knew Oswald had the gun. George de Mohrenschildt had strong CIA links and it's possible he had direct involvement in the framing of Oswald. Unwittingly or not.

Who? Every cop and secret service agent who was on duty at Parkland hospital is known. Why would the lead conspirators who would have presumably put him up to planting the bullet have taken the risk of him exposing them?

So what if they are known? You do realise not everybody loved JFK right? That powerful men like LBJ have strong connections at the top levels of the CIA and the police force. Finding somebody to do this would be not be difficult and the consequences for whistle blowing would be huge. People have kids, families, careers ect.

There is no way anyone would have known in advance that BOTH Kennedy and Connally would be hit and have a bullet from Oswald's rifle and knew he would have a bullet from Oswald's rifle ready to plant on Connally's stretcher and knew it would be found.

They don't have to have known. I thought this was obvious. It could have been planted anywhere.

A bullet than can penetrate that depth of wood without deformity can wound to men and smash bone.

It's very different. A bullet passing through flesh would respond in a similar manner. Pine is not a hard wood. It would decelerate and only suffer minor deformation and an intact metal jacket similar to CE399. However impacting multiple bones would result in far more deformation. Every single test including the modern test with ballistic gel and bone models to recreate the single bullet showed massive deformation of the bullet with wounds consistent with the single bullet theory. Diminishing velocity tests have not been able to recreate the lack of deformation on those kinds of impacts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZRUNYZY71g

However the bullet would have slowed considerably when it passed through JFK's neck entering the back of the neck to the right of the spine and exiting the base of the windpipe.

Not enough to explain the lack of deformation. The math on this has been done. The tests have been done. I've covered it already in the JFK thread.

You should read about LBJ and his oil buddies, JFK and the CIA, the politics of what was going on at the time, the relationship between all of them. There was massive motives there to kill JFK. It's no secret that LBJ despised JFK. Having an enemy as second in command with only your death standing between him and power is a recipe for disaster.

claypigeon777

BloodBath wrote: »

By bullet standards that is quite large and heavy in a state with the highest gun ownership in America, who have one of he highest gun ownerships in the world. Texans aren't ignorant to what bullets look like, especially directly after the assassination of the president.

Give me a break! The orderly who found the bullet did so by pure chance. The bullet could easily have been lost for all time. It's just ridiculous that you are continuing this line of argument with a fantasy about some shadowy agent of the conspiracy leaving the bullet to be found on the stretcher when it is obvious to any thinking person that a more likely scenario is the bullet fell out of the Governor's leg wound.

I know for a fact that this is not true. George de Mohrenschildt and his wife knew Oswald had the gun. George de Mohrenschildt had strong CIA links and it's possible he had direct involvement in the framing of Oswald. Unwittingly or not.

De Mohrenschilt could not have possibly known Oswald kept his rifle in the Paine residence wrapped in a blanket since he had moved to Haiti in June of 1963.

So what if they are known? You do realise not everybody loved JFK right? That powerful men like LBJ have strong connections at the top levels of the CIA and the police force. Finding somebody to do this would be not be difficult and the consequences for whistle blowing would be huge. People have kids, families, careers ect.

JFK was banging everything with a skirt.
Why not just expose him as a womanizing sex maniac and destroy his political career?
No need for an assassination.
JFK would have been tarnished and unelectable.
If someone talked and they were killed you then have the problem of being blackmailed by the hitmen which means you have to kill them and kill their killers and on and on and on.:D

hey don't have to have known. I thought this was obvious. It could have been planted anywhere.

You have to explain how a conspirator could get his hands on the bullet which was fired from Oswald's rifle and how he would have taken the rifle from the Paine garage and returned it without suspicion? And all because on the off chance someone would find the bullet on a stretcher in Parkland hospital?

It's very different. A bullet passing through flesh would respond in a similar manner. Pine is not a hard wood. It would decelerate and only suffer minor deformation and an intact metal jacket similar to CE399. However impacting multiple bones would result in far more deformation. Every single test including the modern test with ballistic gel and bone models to recreate the single bullet showed massive deformation of the bullet with wounds consistent with the single bullet theory. Diminishing velocity tests have not been able to recreate the lack of deformation on those kinds of impacts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZRUNYZY71g

The video shows an almost perfect recreation of the path of the CE399 bullet.

You just proved my point for me without my having to.

It is clear that a bullet can pass through two men and emerge relatively undamaged.

Not enough to explain the lack of deformation. The math on this has been done. The tests have been done. I've covered it already in the JFK thread.

Not only are you claiming that some shadowy agent planted the bullet on the stretcher. Now you are claiming that everyone involved in the Warren Commission was involved too because they came up with this supposedly bogus evidence? So how many people were involved in faking the evidence they presented about the ballistic and forensics? This is turning into a massive cast of character who all would have to be on the same page and all of them would have to stay quiet "or else."? If any one of them went to the press the whole thing would have been blown wide open in a heart beat.

Can you not see that this is just nonsensical crap?

You should read about LBJ and his oil buddies, JFK and the CIA, the politics of what was going on at the time, the relationship between all of them. There was massive motives there to kill JFK. It's no secret that LBJ despised JFK. Having an enemy as second in command with only your death standing between him and power is a recipe for disaster.

If LBJ wanted to get rid of JFK he would have simply exposed his womanizing to the press. LBJ did not get along with JFK but he hitched his trailer to the Kennedys because he wanted to push through progressive social policies to tackle racism and poverty.

The truth is plain and simple. A kook clipped the President from a bookstore on his lunch break.

Was LBJ delighted to be President? You bet! What did LBJ do during his Presidency? He railroaded Civil Rights laws and anti-poverty legislation through Capitol Hill which Kennedy had been to scaredy cat to support. Kennedy gets the credit for being a liberal hero but in fact Johnson was a the real hero who changed America. His greatest mistake was to get snared in Vietnam which was a monumental foreign policy failure which forced him to drop out of the 1968 election. Johnson was at heart a good man but he died a broken man.

You are living in a fantasy world if you think LBJ would have murdered Kennedy.

I am through communicating to you. Good day.

BloodBath

Give me a break! The orderly who found the bullet did so by pure chance. The bullet could easily have been lost for all time. It's just ridiculous that you are continuing this line of argument with a fantasy about some shadowy agent of the conspiracy leaving the bullet to be found on the stretcher when it is obvious to any thinking person that a more likely scenario is the bullet fell out of the Governor's leg wound.

It's ridiculous that you can't at least acknowledge that it is a possibility and move on to more important pieces of information and evidence. Anybody seeking to plant the bullet had ample time to place it in the gurney away from prying eyes. If you read the testimonies like I have you would know this.

De Mohrenschilt could not have possibly known Oswald kept his rifle in the Paine residence wrapped in a blanket since he had moved to Haiti in June of 1963.

You assume that the bullet had to have been taken immediately prior to the assassination when in fact it could have been taken any time in the months or years prior to the assassination. You also assume that means Oswald had no involvement in the plot when he could have been coerced or framed for months or years prior to it.

JFK was banging everything with a skirt.
Why not just expose him as a womanizing sex maniac and destroy his political career?
No need for an assassination.
JFK would have been tarnished and unelectable.
If someone talked and they were killed you then have the problem of being blackmailed by the hitmen which means you have to kill them and kill their killers and on and on and on.

They all were. This is 1950/60's American high society we're talking about. Everybody had mistress's and secrets to hide. If they outed Kennedy he could return the favor. LBJ had mistresses. Hoover was a homosexual.

I suggest you read about Hoover, a close personal friend of LBJ, and the type of man he was. He is the other key player in the assassination and cover up. This is the same man who lead the investigation into Kennedy's death. LBJ was only made vice president by Kennedy because he was blackmailed into doing so. He disliked the man and would never have made him vp in a million years otherwise.

You have to explain how a conspirator could get his hands on the bullet which was fired from Oswald's rifle and how he would have taken the rifle from the Paine garage and returned it without suspicion? And all because on the off chance someone would find the bullet on a stretcher in Parkland hospital?

Why? There are many possible ways. You are acting like it would be hard to achieve when really it would be one of the easiest things in the conspiracy to achieve. Oswald was no doubt being watched, wire tapped, contacted and set up for at least months prior to the assassination. Obtaining a bullet from his gun would have been easy with the resources of the FBI and CIA at their disposal.

The video shows an almost perfect recreation of the path of the CE399 bullet.

You just proved my point for me without my having to.

It is clear that a bullet can pass through two men and emerge relatively undamaged.

The bullet suffered far more deformation than CE399 despite not fragmenting the wrist bone. If you know the facts of the case like I do you would know that;

1. There were 2 large fragments and many small fragments recovered from inside the car. These are supposed to be from the headshot. As you say these bullets are not meant to fragment yet did so on large scale from the supposed headshot.

2. There were many fragments inside Kennedy's skull.

3. There were fragments inside Connally's chest, wrist and thigh.

4. A fragment hit the face of a bystander James Tague who claims it was from the second shot.

5. CE399 has 0 fragmentation of the copper jacket and only a tiny amount of lead loss from the base. Nowhere near enough to account for even a fraction of these fragments. Only 1 - 2.5 grains were missing from CE399, this is after the FBI removed 2 fragments for analysis believed to weigh in the region of 1 grain. More than 3 grains of fragments were in Connally's wrist alone.

6. One of the fragments in Connallys thigh penetrated his femur bone while the bullet is only supposed to have broken the surface flesh and fallen out.

Please logically explain the above information with the assumption that the second shot, officially CE399, caused all of these fragments. You can't. It doesn't add up and proves that CE399 was none of the bullets fired according the official story. How did it end up on the Gurney? What does logic tell you? How did a fragment from a slow bullet penetrate Connallys femur?

Even the main experts in the Warren commission believed that CE399 did not cause these wounds.

Here is the base of CE399. There is virtually no lead loss here at all.



These are the fragments removed from Connalys wrist. There were 2 fragments remaining in his wrist and multiple fragments remaining in his chest and thigh. Please explain where the fragments in the picture alone came from CE399, never mind the remaining fragments.

Not only are you claiming that some shadowy agent planted the bullet on the stretcher. Now you are claiming that everyone involved in the Warren Commission was involved too because they came up with this supposedly bogus evidence? So how many people were involved in faking the evidence they presented about the ballistic and forensics? This is turning into a massive cast of character who all would have to be on the same page and all of them would have to stay quiet "or else."? If any one of them went to the press the whole thing would have been blown wide open in a heart beat.

Can you not see that this is just nonsensical crap?

If you read the majority of the witness testimonies as I have you would see how lackluster the Warren Commission was. How evidence contrary to official conclusion was ignored. Leading of witnesses in questions was common. Again the usual skeptic conclusion that everybody had to be in on it which is simply not the case. The Warren commission set out to collaborate any evidence that tied in with Oswald as the lone shooter and ignored all evidence to the contrary which there was a lot of.

If LBJ wanted to get rid of JFK he would have simply exposed his womanizing to the press. LBJ did not get along with JFK but he hitched his trailer to the Kennedys because he wanted to push through progressive social policies to tackle racism and poverty.

LBJ had a very murky background and associates. As I've said already every powerful high society man at that time period was doing the same thing. You can bet the majority of them even to this day are doing the same thing. Why do you think Kennedy made LBJ his vice president?

I suggest you read about LBJ and the precinct 13 scandal. It is a proven fact that LBJ won his Senate position through rigged votes. This isn't the stuff of wild conspiracy. This is verifiable facts. Many many people closely associated with LBJ and his associates have reported many stories of the illegal activities they were involved in.

Also read about Malcolm Wallace and his connections with LBJ. What kind of man is found guilty of first degree murder, with 11 jurors recomending the death sentence with the 12th recomending life in prison but instead gets a 5 year suspended sentence? LBJ's personal attorney represented him in court. This same mans finger print was found in the "snipers nest" in the texas book depository linking him directly with the JFK assassination. This finger print had 36 matching points. This is far beyond the legal requirement to prove a 100% match.

You couldn't make this stuff up. It's crazy but it's true. The level of corruption is almost incomprehensible. The further you dig and the more information you find out the more the story comes together and makes sense.

Was LBJ delighted to be President? You bet! What did LBJ do during his Presidency? He railroaded Civil Rights laws and anti-poverty legislation through Capitol Hill which Kennedy had been to scaredy cat to support. Kennedy gets the credit for being a liberal hero but in fact Johnson was a the real hero who changed America. His greatest mistake was to get snared in Vietnam which was a monumental foreign policy failure which forced him to drop out of the 1968 election. Johnson was at heart a good man but he died a broken man.

You are living in a fantasy world if you think LBJ would have murdered Kennedy.

I am through communicating to you. Good day.

A hero? Don't make me laugh. The true hero died in 1963.

The one living in the fantasy world is you my friend. I can guarantee you I have spent a lot more time researching this than you have. I don't expect to see you reply to this post as you will have no answer for it.

If you really want you can watch this 8 hour documentary that covers it in far more detail than I ever could. I'd like to see you refute all of the evidence presented here. While not all of the information is accurate it does have one of the largest collections of video recorded witness testimonies. Reliable witnesses revealing a definite campaign of disinformation, subversion and a cover up. You cannot refute this kind of evidence. There's mountains of it. I'd skip the second part though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2agPurqFJk

claypigeon777

BloodBath wrote: »

It's ridiculous that you can't at least acknowledge that it is a possibility and move on to more important pieces of information and evidence. Anybody seeking to plant the bullet had ample time to place it in the gurney away from prying eyes. If you read the testimonies like I have you would know this.

The hospital orderly found the bullet just in time to show it to a Secret Service agent. As soon as Kennedy was dead the Secret Service were getting ready to spirit the President's body and is entourage out of the Dallas because they feared there was a wider plot.

You assume that the bullet had to have been taken immediately prior to the assassination when in fact it could have been taken any time in the months or years prior to the assassination. You also assume that means Oswald had no involvement in the plot when he could have been coerced or framed for months or years prior to it.

Oswald got the job in the TSBD because of his wife's friendship with Ruth Paine who was told by a neighbor there was a job going in the building.
The final route of the motorcade was finalized and published in newspapers only days in advance. The window of time the conspirators had to arrange this fantastical plot is extremely narrow. It's just ludicrous.

They all were. This is 1950/60's American high society we're talking about. Everybody had mistress's and secrets to hide. If they outed Kennedy he could return the favor. LBJ had mistresses. Hoover was a homosexual.

So LBJ instead decided to launch an elaborate plot to murder the President! :rolleyes:

I suggest you read about Hoover, a close personal friend of LBJ, and the type of man he was. He is the other key player in the assassination and cover up. This is the same man who lead the investigation into Kennedy's death. LBJ was only made vice president by Kennedy because he was blackmailed into doing so. He disliked the man and would never have made him vp in a million years otherwise.

Kennedy made Johnson VP because of Johnson's success as Senate Democratic leader. Johnson was able to get support for the White House on Capitol Hill.

Why? There are many possible ways. You are acting like it would be hard to achieve when really it would be one of the easiest things in the conspiracy to achieve. Oswald was no doubt being watched, wire tapped, contacted and set up for at least months prior to the assassination. Obtaining a bullet from his gun would have been easy with the resources of the FBI and CIA at their disposal.

Oswald was one of thousands of people with suspect politics being monitored by the FBI. The agent who was tasked with checking up on Oswald was James P. Hosty. Hosty contacted Marina to interview her about her entry into the US and Oswald sent him a letter telling to stop harrasing her. Hosty filed the letter and thought no more of it until Oswald killed the President. Hoover to avoid embarrassment of the Bureau told Hosty to destroy the letter and he did so. That's the only cover up there was.

1. There were 2 large fragments and many small fragments recovered from inside the car. These are supposed to be from the headshot. As you say these bullets are not meant to fragment yet did so on large scale from the supposed headshot.

The bullet that struck JFK in the head struck skull bone.

The bullet that struck Kennedy in the neck first passed through flesh without striking bone and entered Connally back before passing through his chest again with out yet striking. It had therefore slowed significantly by the time it struck Connally's fifth rib and was moving much more slowly when it smashed the radius bone in his wrist.

5. CE399 has 0 fragmentation of the copper jacket and only a tiny amount of lead loss from the base. Nowhere near enough to account for even a fraction of these fragments. Only 1 - 2.5 grains were missing from CE399, this is after the FBI removed 2 fragments for analysis believed to weigh in the region of 1 grain. More than 3 grains of fragments were in Connally's wrist alone.

The weight of bullet CE399 was reported in the Warren Commission Report as 158.6 grains (10.28 grams). It was found that the weight of a single, unfired bullet ranged from 159.8 to 161.5 grains with an average weight of 160.844 grains.[61] The lead fragments retrieved from Connally's wounds in the wrist (there were no fragments in the chest)[62] weighed about 2 grains (130 milligrams).

BloodBath

Come back to me when you watch that 8 hour documentary and tell me there was no more cover up than the destroyed letter.

You don't know what you're talking about. I'll take the recorded word of the people involved in the incident over the official story and yours. It amazes me how people can be blind to such a huge amount of evidence that has been publicly available for decades yet feel the need to refute evidence that they haven't even seen.

The back of Kennedy's head and brain was blown out as reported by ALL of the medical staff and people who seen Kennedys head in the hospital that day. It was consistent with an exit wound. When the autopsy pictures surfaced in the Warren commision though this exit wound was gone. In it's place a small entry wound with the exit wound on the side.

So LBJ instead decided to launch an elaborate plot to murder the President!

Why do you find that so hard to believe? Do you know anything about these men? Who they really were? Who their associates were? What they had done in the past? Clearly not. Why am I debating with somebody who knows nothing about the subject matter?

The bullet that struck JFK in the head struck skull bone.

The bullet that struck Kennedy in the neck first passed through flesh without striking bone and entered Connally back before passing through his chest again with out yet striking. It had therefore slowed significantly by the time it struck Connally's fifth rib and was moving much more slowly when it smashed the radius bone in his wrist.

It didn't just pass through Connally's chest. It completely pulverised 1 of his ribs. The maximum possibly deceleration from the flesh has been calculated and it's not enough to stop the bullet suffering much larger deformation from striking that rib. All real world tests back up these numbers. 0 real world tests back up the deceleration theory.

The weight of bullet CE399 was reported in the Warren Commission Report as 158.6 grains (10.28 grams). It was found that the weight of a single, unfired bullet ranged from 159.8 to 161.5 grains with an average weight of 160.844 grains.[61] The lead fragments retrieved from Connally's wounds in the wrist (there were no fragments in the chest)[62] weighed about 2 grains (130 milligrams).

You realise there were still fragments inside of Connally's wrist and thigh right? That the FBI had removed around 1 grain of material from the nose of the bullet prior to this testing. The numbers don't add up even taking the maximum possible weight for the bullet. Look at the picture evidence for christ sake.

claypigeon777

The back of Kennedy's head and brain was blown out as reported by ALL of the medical staff and people who seen Kennedys head in the hospital that day. It was consistent with an exit wound. When the autopsy pictures surfaced in the Warren commision though this exit wound was gone. In it's place a small entry wound with the exit wound on the side.

The Zapruder film, the autopsy x-rays and the autopsy photos clearly show that Kennedy was shot to the back of the head and the bullet exited the top front right of the skull.









This photos shows the top of the President's head from the front with the scalp peeled forward over the face. You can see a roughly semicircular hole which is the exit wound in the top front right of the skull.



This is the drawing produced in the 1970s for the HSCA which illustrates the passage of the bullet through the President's skull.

Why do you find that so hard to believe? Do you know anything about these men? Who they really were? Who their associates were? What they had done in the past? Clearly not. Why am I debating with somebody who knows nothing about the subject matter?

An enormous cast of characters in the FBI, CIA, Secret Service, Dallas PD etc etc would have had to had intimate knowledge of the assassination and if any one of them blabbed the conspiracy would have been exposed and LBJ would have risked exposure.
It's total crap.

It didn't just pass through Connally's chest. It completely pulverised 1 of his ribs. The maximum possibly deceleration from the flesh has been calculated and it's not enough to stop the bullet suffering much larger deformation from striking that rib. All real world tests back up these numbers. 0 real world tests back up the deceleration theory.

The yawing bullet struck the rib sideways which is why the bullet has a flattened cross section. It was moving at slower speed after passing through JFK's neck and Connally's back which is why it could smash bone but not be mangled like a bullet would have been if it had not hit any objects prior.

You realise there were still fragments inside of Connally's wrist and thigh right? That the FBI had removed around 1 grain of material from the nose of the bullet prior to this testing. The numbers don't add up even taking the maximum possible weight for the bullet. Look at the picture evidence for christ sake.

I just quoted you the weight of the CE399 bullet and the weight of lead that was missing from the bullet. It is entirely consist with the fragments shed in JFK and Connally's bodies.

You are in complete denial.

BloodBath

The doctors who worked on Kennedy in the Parkland hospital that day refute the autopsy photos saying that is not what they seen that day. Kennedy's brain went missing and never tested or photographed. It would have proven the the shot came from front-side. This would also tie in with the large % of people who reported a shot from this direction and the people who seen armed men in this location. How can you ignore all of the evidence? It's just that you don't know all of the evidence I guess but yet feel the need to debate with somebody who does.

An enormous cast of characters in the FBI, CIA, Secret Service, Dallas PD etc etc would have had to had intimate knowledge of the assassination and if any one of them blabbed the conspiracy would have been exposed and LBJ would have risked exposure.
It's total crap.

You know nothing about it yet feel the need to keep refuting it. It wouldn't have to be massive. The people at the top pulling the strings would make sure it wouldn't be revealed. The voices of people offering information that disputed the story was either ignored or silenced. Many people associated with it turned up dead in the few years after the incident. There have been multiple whistle blowers despite this but you haven't researched it like I have so you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

The yawing bullet struck the rib sideways which is why the bullet has a flattened cross section. It was moving at slower speed after passing through JFK's neck and Connally's back which is why it could smash bone but not be mangled like a bullet would have been if it had not hit any objects prior.

I have researched this. I understand the principle of the diminishing velocity theory. The numbers used in the original theory were wrong though. Accurate figures show the bullet would have had enough velocity. Real world tests also show this. All you have is a theory with 0 repeatable tests while what I'm saying has both the math and real world tests backing it up. You are wrong. Read this.

I just quoted you the weight of the CE399 bullet and the weight of lead that was missing from the bullet. It is entirely consist with the fragments shed in JFK and Connally's bodies.

You are in complete denial.

What a joke. Enjoy being blind. People like you are how men like Hitler get into power. I bet you won't even watch that documentary. God forbid it will shatter your thick blanket of skepticism.

I have provided you with irrefutable evidence, both in pictures and figures that CE399 could have left all of those fragments and yet you still deny it and say I'm in denial? The small hole in the lead in the base was removed by the fbi for testing and the 2 shavings removed from the tip.

claypigeon777

BloodBath wrote: »

The doctors who worked on Kennedy in the Parkland hospital that day refute the autopsy photos saying that is not what they seen that day.

Kennedy's head was caked in blood and the President was lying on his back. It was not until the body arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital that it was properly examined and the extent of the injury to the head was discovered. The Parkland doctors did not even know Kennedy had a bullet wound in the back of the neck. It was only when a doctor at Bethesda spoke to a doctor in Parkland over the phone when the penny dropped that the wound in the throat was not only a tracheotomy but was a bullet wound enlarged by incision.

Kennedy's brain went missing and never tested or photographed.

The HSCA concluded that Robert Kennedy was responsible.

It would have proven the the shot came from front-side. This would also tie in with the large % of people who reported a shot from this direction and the people who seen armed men in this location. How can you ignore all of the evidence? It's just that you don't know all of the evidence I guess but yet feel the need to debate with somebody who does.

I just showed you the autopsy photos that clearly show a wound of entry in the rear of the head and a wound of exit in the top front right of the head.

If JFK was shot from the front right there would have been a small entrance wound in the front right of the head and an exit wound in the left rear of the head.

Abraham Zapruder and other witnesses would have been standing only feet away from a grassy knoll shooter. They saw nobody and heard no shot. Films and photographs of the assassination show no shooter in the location.

The grassy knoll shooter theory is total crap.

There is NO evidence.

You know nothing about it yet feel the need to keep refuting it.

I have read extensively on the Kennedy assassination.
I have refuted everything you have put forward so far point for point.

It wouldn't have to be massive.

You are claiming now that autopsy was faked which means you are implicating those who performed the autopsy. You already claimed there was a second shooter. You have also claimed the CE399 was planted at Parkland. I presume you think Ruby was also involved and the Dallas cops helped frame Oswald and have him killed right? You have also claimed De Mohrenschilt was involved and the FBI had people monitoring Oswald before the assassination. That's a huge cast of characters right there. Anyone of them could have exposed the plot by going to the press!

The people at the top pulling the strings would make sure it wouldn't be revealed.

But they couldn't cover up the May Lai massacre, the Watergate break in, the release of confidential papers during the Vietnam War, the Iran Contra affair, the Monica Lewinsky scandal, 9/11, Enron etc etc etc?
Give me a break. The U.S. government leaks like a sieve.

The voices of people offering information that disputed the story was either ignored or silenced.

A lot of lunatics wrote books and there stories did not check out.

Vincent Bugliosi, the prosecutor who put Manson away, went over the evidence with a fine tooth comb in his book Reclaiming History.
He refutes every single one of these barmy conspiracy theories.

Many people associated with it turned up dead in the few years after the incident.

Over the past 50 years people have died? No sh*t. People died of hear attacks, cancer, automobile accidents, old age etc etc.

There have been multiple whistle blowers despite this but you haven't researched it like I have so you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

I think I've heard of so many people who claim to have really killed Kennedy that there must have been the equivalent of an infantry company shooting at him!:D

I have researched this. I understand the principle of the diminishing velocity theory. The numbers used in the original theory were wrong though. Accurate figures show the bullet would have had enough velocity. Real world tests also show this. All you have is a theory with 0 repeatable tests while what I'm saying has both the math and real world tests backing it up. You are wrong. Read this.

More crap.

The test that the Discovery Channel performed using anatomical models was as close a recreation of the single bullet theory as it is possible to do without shooting two living breathing human beings. There is no question that if such an incident occurred today that investigators would use precisely the same techniques.

I have provided you with irrefutable evidence, both in pictures and figures that CE399 could have left all of those fragments and yet you still deny it and say I'm in denial? The small hole in the lead in the base was removed by the fbi for testing and the 2 shavings removed from the tip.

I've refuted this already and you still won't let it go!

The CE399 bullet shed roughly 2 or 3 grains of lead compared to a while unfired bullet of the same type.

That is roughly same amount of lead fragments found in JFK and Connally.

Irrefutable evidence! HA!

hoplon

claypigeon777 wrote: »

A bullet is not massive. It is very small. It could easily have rolled off the stretcher and never been found. A cleaner could have scooped it up with other trash and not even have been aware of it. It was pure chance that the hospital orderly saw the bullet and picked it up.



The rifle was stored at the Paine residence. So to get a bullet fired by Oswald's rifle and plant it on the hospital stretcher then the conspirator would have to have taken the rifle from the Paine residence fire the bullet and then returned it again.





The bullet have to be planted by someone who got through the ring of cops who surrounded the hospital.





How would he have known BOTH JFK and Connally would be wounded?



It is important where because of the risk of being caught.



Just because it is the CIA involved does not mean they are superhumans who can pull off the impossible.





There is nothing at all unusual about a bullet passing through two men and remaining intact.

Indeed that is what the 6.5mm Western round was designed to do.

John Lattimer performed the experiment below with the same type of rifle and the same type of rifle round which he fired through solid wood.

As a newby here, I didnt really plan on posting or getting bogged down in conspiracy theories, but I guess the whole jfk thing has a draw to it.
I saw a good documentary on it recently which if I recal correctly showed that Kennedy was shot from a few directions, in particular the fatal shot from the front, which one of the doctors/ med student who was present said he kept secret for years out of fear from what he had experienced at the time. He says the pictures of Kennedys wounds were not what he saw and a phot expert examined the images and shows they were retouched and that the head had been built up with some substance (I think they said wax)

Separately expert shooters have tried to re create the shots with the Carcano rifle and have determined it to be not possible.

I also have to assume you dont know very much about firearms or have not fired rifles or have not seen whats left of a bullet after it has hit objects if you believe whats highlighted, or that the shots were possible at all, also there are a re a number of 6.5mm rounds, which 6.5 western round are you referring to?
I cant imagine a round not deforming after it hit a number of people and did not then end up getting damaged by hitting the vehicle somewhere and then still ended up on the stretcher???
Small though any round would be, it would be easily identifieable as either something someone would recognise or something which would look like a piece of deformed metal and out of place if you never saw it before.

claypigeon777

hoplon wrote: »

I saw a good documentary on it recently which if I recal correctly showed that Kennedy was shot from a few directions, in particular the fatal shot from the front, which one of the doctors/ med student who was present said he kept secret for years out of fear from what he had experienced at the time. He says the pictures of Kennedys wounds were not what he saw and a phot expert examined the images and shows they were retouched and that the head had been built up with some substance (I think they said wax)

Kennedy was shot from only ONE location - the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository. He was struck in the back of the neck and the back of the head.

There were two entry wounds.

Separately expert shooters have tried to re create the shots with the Carcano rifle and have determined it to be not possible.

Oh really?

In this test in 1967 most shooters could hit a moving target with 2 out of 3 shots from the same height and distant.

I also have to assume you dont know very much about firearms or have not fired rifles or have not seen whats left of a bullet after it has hit objects if you believe whats highlighted, or that the shots were possible at all, also there are a re a number of 6.5mm rounds, which 6.5 western round are you referring to?

Really?

I cant imagine a round not deforming after it hit a number of people and did not then end up getting damaged by hitting the vehicle somewhere and then still ended up on the stretcher???

Why don't you actually read the evidence of the Warren Commission Report.

Here is the link to Chapter III:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/wcr3.htm

Small though any round would be, it would be easily identifieable as either something someone would recognise or something which would look like a piece of deformed metal and out of place if you never saw it before.

It is only by pure chance at the hospital orderly saw the bullet and was able to present it to a Secret Service agent who could send it to the FBI crime lab.

BloodBath

Kennedy's head was caked in blood and the President was lying on his back. It was not until the body arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital that it was properly examined and the extent of the injury to the head was discovered. The Parkland doctors did not even know Kennedy had a bullet wound in the back of the neck. It was only when a doctor at Bethesda spoke to a doctor in Parkland over the phone when the penny dropped that the wound in the throat was not only a tracheotomy but was a bullet wound enlarged by incision.

More bull****. Watch the god damn documentary I posted and you will see the doctors themselves saying what they saw. A large exit wound in the back of the head and an entrance wound in the front of the neck. I'm sick of arguing with somebody who doesn't know what he's talking about and will not review the evidence I have provided but instead reiterates the bull**** official story. All 16 doctors said the autopsy photos do not match what they saw that day. Not 1 verified them. To suggest that professional doctors who spent their lives assessing people's injuries and attempting to save them did not know the extent of the injuries is an insult.

I just showed you the autopsy photos that clearly show a wound of entry in the rear of the head and a wound of exit in the top front right of the head.

If JFK was shot from the front right there would have been a small entrance wound in the front right of the head and an exit wound in the left rear of the head.

Abraham Zapruder and other witnesses would have been standing only feet away from a grassy knoll shooter. They saw nobody and heard no shot. Films and photographs of the assassination show no shooter in the location.

The grassy knoll shooter theory is total crap.

There is NO evidence.

That is exactly the injury described by the doctors in the Parkland hospital that day and others who saw the genuine photos and the body. These people are on video in the documentary I provided saying just that. You don't regard that as evidence?

Over 40 witnesses said a gunshot came from the grassy knoll area. Police and the public ran to this location after the shooting to find the source. 3 witnesses saw a gunman in this location. Read the god damn witness testimonies like I have and watch the documentary instead of spouting the bull**** official story. You are not willing to put any time into researching the facts but are willing to spend time refuting my evidence without reviewing it.

I have read extensively on the Kennedy assassination.
I have refuted everything you have put forward so far point for point.

No you haven't. Have you watched 8 hour documentary? No you haven't. Have you read the 200 witness testimonies like I have? No you haven't. You don't know what you're talking about to refute anything.

You are claiming now that autopsy was faked which means you are implicating those who performed the autopsy. You already claimed there was a second shooter. You have also claimed the CE399 was planted at Parkland. I presume you think Ruby was also involved and the Dallas cops helped frame Oswald and have him killed right? You have also claimed De Mohrenschilt was involved and the FBI had people monitoring Oswald before the assassination. That's a huge cast of characters right there. Anyone of them could have exposed the plot by going to the press!

It was faked. Are you saying all 16 doctors from the Parkland hospital and the other witnesses to the injuries are lying? I came to the conclusion that CE399 was planted at the hospital based on the fact that it could not possibly have been the bullet claimed to have caused all the wounds and fragments of the second shot according to the official story. The dallas cops didn't have to be on it. Only 1 person higher up. Where did the detailed description of Oswald that was put out over police radio originate from? I'm not saying De Mohrenschildt was involved but it is a possibility. You realise bit part players would only have bit part information and the implications for them going to the press would be their deaths and the deaths of their children and families. If they can kill the president of the United States who is safe?

Are you saying all of the people in the 8 hour documentary I posted are lying? People who had nothing to gain and everything to lose by lying?

But they couldn't cover up the May Lai massacre, the Watergate break in, the release of confidential papers during the Vietnam War, the Iran Contra affair, the Monica Lewinsky scandal, 9/11, Enron etc etc etc?
Give me a break. The U.S. government leaks like a sieve.

For everything that gets discovered I can guarantee you there is a lot that doesn't. Why is 9/11 in that list? Your reasoning is beyond naive. E Howard Hunt, a CIA operative and one of the men arrested and charged in relation to the watergate scandal is one of the JFK whistleblowers. He revealed on his deathbed in recorded conversations with his son the men involved which collaborates with the other evidence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbD_u7nUB_c

A lot of lunatics wrote books and there stories did not check out.

Vincent Bugliosi, the prosecutor who put Manson away, went over the evidence with a fine tooth comb in his book Reclaiming History.
He refutes every single one of these barmy conspiracy theories.

So all of the people in the hour documentary I linked are barmy lying lunatics? These the doctors who operated on both JFK and LHO. The police on duty that day. The witnesses in Dealey plaza. People connected to the main players. The whistleblowers like E Howard Hunt. The high ranking army officials. Granted I'm sure some of the people in it are lying or crazy but to suggest all of them are is ludicrous.

Over the past 50 years people have died? No sh*t. People died of hear attacks, cancer, automobile accidents, old age etc etc.

I'm talking about the several years directly after the assassination. Not 50 years. A lot of the deaths are highly suspect.

I think I've heard of so many people who claim to have really killed Kennedy that there must have been the equivalent of an infantry company shooting at him!

These aren't random crazies. These are ex CIA closely involved with the bay of pigs and the people who succeeded Kennedy. Look at who E Howard Hunt is.

More crap.

The test that the Discovery Channel performed using anatomical models was as close a recreation of the single bullet theory as it is possible to do without shooting two living breathing human beings. There is no question that if such an incident occurred today that investigators would use precisely the same techniques.

Look at how deformed the bullet is after their test. It is massively deformed in comparison to CE399.

I've refuted this already and you still won't let it go!

The CE399 bullet shed roughly 2 or 3 grains of lead compared to a while unfired bullet of the same type.

That is roughly same amount of lead fragments found in JFK and Connally.

Irrefutable evidence! HA!

You haven't refuted it. I have explained already that there was lead taken from the base and copper taken from the Jacket for analysis by the FBI prior to these weight measurements. The total weight of what they took amounts to a minimum of 1 grain. Taking this into account it is impossible that all of the known fragments add up to the max possible weight. This isn't even taking into account the possibility that other fragments were ejected into or out of the car.


Now if you want to continue this discussion with me I suggest you at least read the 200 witness testimonies like I have and watch the 8 hour documentary. Here are the links. While the documentary may not be unbiased it does provide a massive amount of recorded evidence and reliable witness testimonies refuting the official story. If you continue to believe the Warren commission story after this then there is no hope for you.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/wit.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etgDxSUKLqc

hoplon

claypigeon777 wrote: »

Kennedy was shot from only ONE location - the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository. He was struck in the back of the neck and the back of the head.

There were two entry wounds.











Oh really?

In this test in 1967 most shooters could hit a moving target with 2 out of 3 shots from the same height and distant.

Really?





Why don't you actually read the evidence of the Warren Commission Report.

Here is the link to Chapter III:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/wcr3.htm




It is only by pure chance at the hospital orderly saw the bullet and was able to present it to a Secret Service agent who could send it to the FBI crime lab.

For a start, you keep showing images that from the documentary I saw, were dismissed as not what was present when Kennedy was brought in after he was shot. The images you show, show the back of the head intact, it can be seen from the film footage what looks like damage to the rear of the head as the head is thrown back, doesnt seem like a shot from behind really.
I thought it was really interesting that a number of people on that documentary were able to provide more than reasonable doubt that the events that occured as they were determined to have in the warren report did happen that way, in particular the physician that stayed quiet for over a quarter of a century.

I dont know what the Warren report says on the details of it, I admit that, but you seem to believe it unfailingly. It seems there are too many elements that raise doubt, and when I can see things myself that seem improbable then its cause for suspicion of the events.
I have never found a round fired intact ever, I find it hard to believe a round hit two people, potentially other elements of a vehicle and then fell out of a wound virtually completely intact. What the round does to ponderosa pine seems irrelevant to me, the bodies the bullets hit were not made from pine.
The idea that some lone nutjob pulled things off, while possible, is still the least likely option. Im suprised people defend it so strongly. I dont know what fear it touches in people that they defend something so rigidly.
You can believe what you want, I believe there is much more to it than has been reported, for one why was it necessary to seal the details of an event in history nearly 50 years ago either for an extended period of time or permanently.

claypigeon777

hoplon wrote: »

For a start, you keep showing images that from the documentary I saw, were dismissed as not what was present when Kennedy was brought in after he was shot.

The photos were taken at the autopsy is Bethesda Naval hospital. That is Kennedy's body and those were the injuries to his body.
A wound in the back of the neck and a wound in the back of the head.

The images you show, show the back of the head intact, it can be seen from the film footage what looks like damage to the rear of the head as the head is thrown back, doesnt seem like a shot from behind really.

You can clearly see that there was a wound of entry in the back of the head.

I thought it was really interesting that a number of people on that documentary were able to provide more than reasonable doubt that the events that occured as they were determined to have in the warren report did happen that way, in particular the physician that stayed quiet for over a quarter of a century.

Who? Every doctor who treated Kennedy in Parkland Hospital or was present later at the autopsy in Bethesda Naval Hospital was questioned by the Warren Commission.

I dont know what the Warren report says on the details of it, I admit that, but you seem to believe it unfailingly.

Maybe you should read the Warren Commission Report?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/wcrtoc.htm

It seems there are too many elements that raise doubt, and when I can see things myself that seem improbable then its cause for suspicion of the events.

Read the Warren Report which addresses a range of these elements of doubt.

I have never found a round fired intact ever, I find it hard to believe a round hit two people, potentially other elements of a vehicle and then fell out of a wound virtually completely intact. What the round does to ponderosa pine seems irrelevant to me, the bodies the bullets hit were not made from pine.

A bullet that penetrate that depth of ponderosa pine would obviously be able to penetrate two human bodies without deformation.

The idea that some lone nutjob pulled things off, while possible, is still the least likely option.

How so? All Oswald or indeed anyone else who wanted to kill Kennedy that day needed to do was to know the route of the motorcade and position themselves in a window they could shoot from. Oswald traveled to his wife's house on the Thursday and took the rifle to work in a paper package on the Friday morning and waited until his coworkers went downstairs to watch the motorcade. He picked the south east corner window of the 6th floor which had an excellent view of Dealey Plaza. He was a trained Marine and an excellent shot.

Im suprised people defend it so strongly.

I've just shown you the evidence. If the evidence supports the conclusions of the Warren Report then logical dictates the conclusions must be supported.

I dont know what fear it touches in people that they defend something so rigidly.

No fear at all. There is a mountain of evidence that shows Oswald fired the shots and he acted alone.

You can believe what you want,

No you cannot believe what you want. Facts are not a matter of debate.
The world is round and not flat. Water boils at 100 Celsius and freezes at 0 Celsius. Lee Harvey Oswald shot Kennedy and acted alone.

I believe there is much more to it than has been reported, for one why was it necessary to seal the details of an event in history nearly 50 years ago either for an extended period of time or permanently.

As in many other investigations information which may be damaging to innocent person contacted by the investigators was not revealed.
In other murder cases evidence gathered is not released for decades.
There is nothing at all unusual about that.

hoplon

claypigeon777 wrote: »

The photos were taken at the autopsy is Bethesda Naval hospital. That is Kennedy's body and those were the injuries to his body.
A wound in the back of the neck and a wound in the back of the head.

HE WAS INITIALLY EXAMINED IN DALLAS

You can clearly see that there was a wound of entry in the back of the head.

FROM AN IMAGE OR IMAGES YOU DO NOT KNOW TO BE CORRECT, JUST ONE PRESENTED TO YOU

Who? Every doctor who treated Kennedy in Parkland Hospital or was present later at the autopsy in Bethesda Naval Hospital was questioned by the Warren Commission.

I WILL TRY FIND THE DOCUMENTARY, BUT ON THAT ONE DOCTOR RETOLD HOW THERE WERE THREATS AND CALLS MADE TO THE STAFF TO CHANGE THE STORY OF WHAT THEY WITNESSED, ONE SUCH PHYSICIAN LATER WENT ON TO BECOME A PROMINENT DOCTOR AND SAID HE NO LONGER WANTED TO KEEP HIS SILENCE AND TELL THE TRUTH.

Maybe you should read the Warren Commission Report?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/wcrtoc.htm



Read the Warren Report which addresses a range of these elements of doubt.



A bullet that penetrate that depth of ponderosa pine would obviously be able to penetrate two human bodies without deformation.

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A BULLET THATS HIT ANYTHING, YOU ARE JUST REPEATING WHAT YOU HAVE HEARD, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A BULLET THAT HAS HIT ANY OBJECT?? IT WOULD SUFFER SOME DEFORMATION, CERTAINLY NOT NO DAMAGE.

How so? All Oswald or indeed anyone else who wanted to kill Kennedy that day needed to do was to know the route of the motorcade and position themselves in a window they could shoot from. Oswald traveled to his wife's house on the Thursday and took the rifle to work in a paper package on the Friday morning and waited until his coworkers went downstairs to watch the motorcade. He picked the south east corner window of the 6th floor which had an excellent view of Dealey Plaza. He was a trained Marine and an excellent shot.

OSWALD WAS NOT DETERMINED TO BE AN EXCELLENT SHOT, JUST BECAUSE HE WAS IN THE MARINES DOES NOT PROVE THAT. THE CARCANO IS NOT A PERFECT SNIPER RIFLE, FAR FROM IT.

I've just shown you the evidence. If the evidence supports the conclusions of the Warren Report then logical dictates the conclusions must be supported.



No fear at all. There is a mountain of evidence that shows Oswald fired the shots and he acted alone.



No you cannot believe what you want. Facts are not a matter of debate.
The world is round and not flat. Water boils at 100 Celsius and freezes at 0 Celsius. Lee Harvey Oswald shot Kennedy and acted alone.



As in many other investigations information which may be damaging to innocent person contacted by the investigators was not revealed.
In other murder cases evidence gathered is not released for decades.
There is nothing at all unusual about that.

I'll try find the documentary so you can see it yourself. Im not in a hurry, ive plenty of other things to do, i suggest you search yourself too, beyond the warren commision report, you suggest it is unfalteringly correct and 50 years later that it is still ok for it to be kept secret, to protect who?? who would need protecting against recriminations, especially this much later on.
Maybe you wouldnt place so much faith in the warren commission after seeing then, Im not sure why you place unfaltering faith in it now.
Bethesda is in Maryland, Kennedy was at Parklands hospital in Dallas, one of the Doctors present later retold what he saw and it his claim that the wounds described in the Warren commission report were not the wounds he witnessed on Kennedy at the time he saw the body, he described how medical staff had received calls from the Naval hospital later to change the story of their findings.

Believe what you want but there seems too many coincidences come together and secrecy over the evidence to not at least question the findings. While it could be possible for a lone person to pull this off, there are too many inconsistencies.

Have you ever fired a high powered rifle? seen the remnants of bullets? I have, I think the bullet would have been smashed to pieces and probably should have hit somewhere in the car too damaging it or been ejected from the vehicle to hit someone or something else or maybe never be seen again, but to turn up completely intact, that is suspicious.
Why was the limo not preserved, instead it was cleaned and rebuilt?
Oswalds military record was destroyed

I think the documentary was the "The men who killed Kennedy" it was on recently, only this year I think.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-kennedy-assassination-24-hours-after/

Its long done and nothing I can say will change your mind or the outcome of events, I have looked at what I have seen from impartial view and come to the conclusion that it could not be just one person acting alone, even if Oswald fired the only shots. You seem to take the view that the Warren commission is unfailingly correct and that there were no motives to keep things secret.

BloodBath

That's the same documentary I have linked several times. He probably won't watch it.

claypigeon777

HE WAS INITIALLY EXAMINED IN DALLAS

The doctors tried to help JFK breath by opening the wound in this throat wide enough to insert a tube and they massaged his chest to keep his heart pumping. That's all they could do. As soon as he was dead he was loaded in a coffin and soon after the coffin was driven to Lovefield, put on Air Force One and delivered to Bethesda Naval Hospital.

FROM AN IMAGE OR IMAGES YOU DO NOT KNOW TO BE CORRECT, JUST ONE PRESENTED TO YOU

If those photos are not Kennedys body then the staff at Bethesda Hospital must have been involved in the murder and must have given false testimony. That's just ludicrous.

I WILL TRY FIND THE DOCUMENTARY, BUT ON THAT ONE DOCTOR RETOLD HOW THERE WERE THREATS AND CALLS MADE TO THE STAFF TO CHANGE THE STORY OF WHAT THEY WITNESSED, ONE SUCH PHYSICIAN LATER WENT ON TO BECOME A PROMINENT DOCTOR AND SAID HE NO LONGER WANTED TO KEEP HIS SILENCE AND TELL THE TRUTH.

Utter nonsense.

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A BULLET THATS HIT ANYTHING, YOU ARE JUST REPEATING WHAT YOU HAVE HEARD, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A BULLET THAT HAS HIT ANY OBJECT?? IT WOULD SUFFER SOME DEFORMATION, CERTAINLY NOT NO DAMAGE.

I'll post this again. You obvious can't either read or use your eyes.

OSWALD WAS NOT DETERMINED TO BE AN EXCELLENT SHOT, JUST BECAUSE HE WAS IN THE MARINES DOES NOT PROVE THAT. THE CARCANO IS NOT A PERFECT SNIPER RIFLE, FAR FROM IT.

In 1956 Oswald scored 212: two marks above the minimum for a ‘sharpshooter’. Compared to civilians he would have been an excellent shot. The Mannlicher-Carcano rifle is capable of hitting targets at a range of hundreds of meters. The range from the 6th floor window to JFK would have been less than 90 yards and with a 4 power scope would visually have been reduced to about 20 yards. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

I'll try find the documentary so you can see it yourself. Im not in a hurry, ive plenty of other things to do, i suggest you search yourself too, beyond the warren commision report, you suggest it is unfalteringly correct

I watched it years ago. A heap of stinking crap full of conspiracy theory nonsense.

50 years later that it is still ok for it to be kept secret, to protect who?? who would need protecting against recriminations, especially this much later on.

The US government regularly seals documents away for decades as do many other countries. There is nothing sinister at all. The 50 year rule is usually to ensure by the time the documents are unsealed the persons are deceased.

Maybe you wouldnt place so much faith in the warren commission after seeing then, Im not sure why you place unfaltering faith in it now.

Maybe you should read the Warren Report?

Believe what you want but there seems too many coincidences come together and secrecy over the evidence to not at least question the findings. While it could be possible for a lone person to pull this off, there are too many inconsistencies.

There no inconsistences. Oswald bought the rifle from a magazine using an assumed name on an order form with his handwriting. He was photographed by his wife with the gun. He took the rifle to work in a paper package. He was seen shooting JFK from the window. His shirt fibres and his palm print were found on the weapon. He fled the building after the shooting and shot a cop before he was arrested at a movie theatre with the revolver he used to kill the cop. Case closed.

Have you ever fired a high powered rifle? seen the remnants of bullets? I have, I think the bullet would have been smashed to pieces and probably should have hit somewhere in the car too damaging it or been ejected from the vehicle to hit someone or something else or maybe never be seen again, but to turn up completely intact, that is suspicious

Yes I have fired a rifle and I have seen some bullets smashed to pieces and others intact.

There is nothing unusual at all about a bullet striking two men and the bullet remaining relatively intact.

The bullet that hit Kennedy in the head shattered into pieces, the chrome frame of the windshield was dented and the glass had a spider web crack. Two fragments were recovered on the front seat of the limo. James Tague was nicked on the cheek by a bullet fragment because he was in the line of fire.

Why was the limo not preserved, instead it was cleaned and rebuilt?

President Johnson ordered the blood and the brains washed from the car because there were photographers taking photos.

I think the documentary was the "The men who killed Kennedy" it was on recently, only this year I think.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-k...4-hours-after/

I saw it years ago. That documentary is another heap of crap.

Its long done and nothing I can say will change your mind or the outcome of events, I have looked at what I have seen from impartial view and come to the conclusion that it could not be just one person acting alone, even if Oswald fired the only shots. You seem to take the view that the Warren commission is unfailingly correct and that there were no motives to keep things secret.

You obviously have not read the Warren Report.

Point for point you conspiracy fantasies are refuted.

BloodBath

There's no point even arguing with this guy. He hasn't a clue what he's talking about and thinks the Warren report is accurate. A investigation run by the same people who killed Kennedy is fair right?

I have read all 200 witness testimonies, from police interviews to warren commission interviews. Have you?

I can guarantee that you haven't watched that documentary either. If you had you wouldn't just rubbish it as conspiracy theory nonsense. If you were smart you would verify a lot of the information in it which is 100% verifiable fact. You're just a blind skeptic.

Right from the very start of the documentary you have information from Governor Connally and his wife that disputes the Warren Commissions official conclusion. Kennedy was hit before Connally, not at the same time with the same bullet. That alone refutes the Warren commissions findings. Are you saying him and his wife are lying?

You think LBJ was a hero when in fact he was a lying murdering scumbag as was Hoover.

There is enough information available online about both of these men to show that.

Humanity has no hope with people like you in the world.

Wacker The Attacker

Is it really necessary to regurgitate operation northwoods?

hoplon

claypigeon777 wrote: »

In 1956 Oswald scored 212: two marks above the minimum for a ‘sharpshooter’. Compared to civilians he would have been an excellent shot. The Mannlicher-Carcano rifle is capable of hitting targets at a range of hundreds of meters. The range from the 6th floor window to JFK would have been less than 90 yards and with a 4 power scope would visually have been reduced to about 20 yards. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

You are entitled to your view, but you seem to be getting irate that I dont agree with you.
You posted so much there that you just wash over like you assume its all true or accurate.

So I'll stick to what I know better,
1 you failed to answer me whether you had any experience firing high powered rifles, from what you say, I have to assume it is limited, I really believe it is none.

A 4 power scope is really very little magnification, looking through a 4 power, I dont believe will make 90 yards look like 20, its different looking through it, on the other hand a lower power scope would be better for aquiring a target.
Im not sure where you got the information on Oswald's shooting record given his military records are supposed to have been destroyed. So if its the Warren commission report, then you are assuming everything in there is true or that no errors have been made.

Whatever you believe, you seem annoyed I dont agree.
One way or another, Kennedy was killed, due to wilful neglect, incompetence or malice, which ever it was it was wrong but I feel there was a more nefarious element to it than just the simple lone nut explanation. Too many things came together to end in the way it did, a hell of a list of coincidences or intent, you seem to think the former and I the later.

claypigeon777

BloodBath wrote: »

There's no point even arguing with this guy.

Every point you have put forward has been refuted.

He hasn't a clue what he's talking about and thinks the Warren report is accurate.

You obviously haven't read it.

A investigation run by the same people who killed Kennedy is fair right?

Nonsense.

I have read all 200 witness testimonies, from police interviews to warren commission interviews. Have you?

If you did read them you would know the majority of witnesses testified they heard three shots from the Texas School Book Depository.

I can guarantee that you haven't watched that documentary either. If you had you wouldn't just rubbish it as conspiracy theory nonsense. If you were smart you would verify a lot of the information in it which is 100% verifiable fact. You're just a blind skeptic.

The documentary is total junk full of deliberate falsehoods and factoids. It's junk.

Right from the very start of the documentary you have information from Governor Connally and his wife that disputes the Warren Commissions official conclusion. Kennedy was hit before Connally, not at the same time with the same bullet. That alone refutes the Warren commissions findings. Are you saying him and his wife are lying?

Both Kennedy and Connally were hit at the same time at frame 223 of the Zapruder film.

claypigeon777

hoplon wrote: »

A 4 power scope is really very little magnification, looking through a 4 power, I dont believe will make 90 yards look like 20, its different looking through it, on the other hand a lower power scope would be better for aquiring a target.

If an object is about 80 to 90 yards away and you are using a 4 power scope then that object is multiplied in size by 4 meaning it will appear just over 20 yards away in the scope.

Im not sure where you got the information on Oswald's shooting record given his military records are supposed to have been destroyed.

You really don't know what you are talking about do you?

So if its the Warren commission report, then you are assuming everything in there is true or that no errors have been made.

Have you read it?

Whatever you believe, you seem annoyed I dont agree.

I have presented the autopsy photos which clearly refute the conspiracy theories and you refuse to accept the evidence right in front of your eyes.

One way or another, Kennedy was killed, due to wilful neglect, incompetence or malice, which ever it was it was wrong but I feel there was a more nefarious element to it than just the simple lone nut explanation.

Feelings are not evidence.

Kennedy himself wanted to ride in an open car with no armored protection and he even refused to have Secret Service agents riding on the running boards. In 1963 the Secret Service did not check ever single building along a parade route, did not have snipers on rooftops, did not search for bombs in every sewer and drain and so on. It was a more innocent time when terrorism and bombings and shootings and assassinations were not a feature of American life. That changed during the Vietnam era and beyond.

Too many things came together to end in the way it did, a hell of a list of coincidences or intent, you seem to think the former and I the later.

Coincidences happen all the time. They tend to accumulate around a famous person because he becomes the focus of events.
It was just bad luck that Ruth Paine had a conversation with a neighbor who told her a job was going in the Texas School Book Depository.
Paine told Oswald and he was interviewed by Roy Truly who was impressed by Oswald's habit since the USMC of addressing older men as "sir."
Oswald read about the parade route right past the building in the local paper and that was his chance.
He went to his wife's house on the Thursday rather than Friday and went to work with the neighbour's son who drove him to the Depository with a long paper package. The rest is history.

hoplon

claypigeon777 wrote: »

If an object is about 80 to 90 yards away and you are using a 4 power scope then that object is multiplied in size by 4 meaning it will appear just over 20 yards away in the scope.





You really don't know what you are talking about do you?



.

You are citing a computer game? is that a game? looks interesting, what is it? Can you fire from the grassy knoll or other positions, like from down the drain? Thats like comparing someone fighting in a war to call of duty. I dont think 4 power would look that susbstantial at that distance and while Im not an expert, I have looked down the sights of a few large bore rifles, keeping on target is more difficult than you might imagine and certainly more difficult than a computer game.
The targets look less substantial than you might think, moving targets, with a dodgy rifle not designed or modified for that purpose, under pressure, by a person not frequently or even recently practiced. Someone shooting needs to maintain their proficiency, Oswalds military performance doesnt mean much given it was years earlier and marksman was the minimum qualification and he just scored 1 or 2 points over failing, so it looks like he was "passed". People are known to forge documents even or especially in the military. There is nothing to prove that wasnt forged on the day he fired to not make someone look bad or just to get him through for some reason, or forged at a later date,or that it was a complete fluke.I cant prove its inaccurate any more than you can prove its true. But it doesnt seem he was a consistently excellent or even good shot. This for the guy who wants to go out and shoot a national leader, all on his own.
The first link I show, suggests it took him two weeks of practice to obtain an improved score, over his original barely passing.
So he turns up on the day and either assembles a rifle and doesnt get to practice or he arrives with the assembled rifle, one which the FBI said the sight could not maintain its point of aim and that the spent cartridges some of which went missing and later turned up, some of which had indetermined markings not matching the rifles components of the action, which was prone to sticking and he managed headshots in quick succession!
Also, why are you so ratty about it I dont understand, why the continued smart remarks, Im just making observations, you seem to be taking it personally.

http://www.giljesus.com/jfk/poor%20shot.htm
http://22november1963.org.uk/lee-harvey-oswald-marksman-sharpshooter

Vicmature

I will just saw that after reading this thread I have a few comments,

Bloodbath you come off very badly. Your tone and comments are needlessly agressive and obnoxious. Both yourself and Claypigeon have different opinions and yet you are incredibly abusive in your comments towards someone who apparently wants a civilised discussion.

Hoplon. The computer simulation (not computer game) is designed to demostrate that Oswald could have made the shots from the book depository. A tentpole of conspiracy theory thinking is that Oswald could not have made the shot from his location in the book depository ergo the shots could have come from elsewhere, the programmers intention was to clearly demonstrate Oswald could make the shot.

As to Oswald's proficiency. As has been demonstrated on this thread Oswald's skills' as a sharpshooter are proficient, the shot was within the range of the rifle he possessed, and he was added by a telescope scope. Oswald could easily have made the shot.

The idea that Oswald records were intentionally forged from the get go, or other absurd notions suggests that the plot to kill Kennedy was being formed when Oswald was in the marines (which would suggest people were planning to kill Kennedy well over a year before he even became president (Oswald was discharged in Oct 1959)


But onto the thread title "Operation Northwoods Again"

When was operation Northwoods a reality.

Northwoods was a plan that never even got off the drawing board. It was the idea of detonating a drone claiming it was a US plane and blaming the Cubans.

This never happened.

To suggest we're in danger of, or indeed experiencing a 2nd northwoods is demonstrably false.

BloodBath

He ignored my points and my requests to move this to the JFK thread where a lot of the points being made had already been discussed. Ignoring my answers to his questions is rude and obnoxious. It's incredibly annoying dealing with somebody who will not review the information you have supplied and completely ignores your requests.

I am happy to debate with somebody who isn't so narrow minded. He's entitled to his opinion but ramming the Warren commission story down my neck while not looking at other facts is not how you debate.

I tried to keep it civilised but lost patience. There is no debating with some people. I'm not expecting him to change his opinion but I do expect him to reply to my posts in a reasonable manner covering the questions I have brought up and reviewing the evidence I have supplied without just rubishing them with 0 forethought or analysis.

Instead just linking the first google result he finds to validate the warren story.

I have spent a lot of time researching this topic and have provided links to information that refutes the warren commission report he holds so dearly. Yet I'm passed off as some conspiracy nut.


To answer your question about operation Northwoods. The gulf of Tonkin incident was a proven false flag operation executed 1 year after the assassination of JFK. Ordered by LBJ to justify sending 2 million US soldiers into Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia when Kennedy was going to withdraw the 16000 that were there.

This is operation Northwoods in effect except directed at south east Asia instead of Cuba.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident


This further demonstrates the kind of man LBJ was.

Vicmature

BloodBath wrote: »

To answer your question about operation Northwoods. The gulf of Tonkin incident was a proven false flag operation executed 1 year after the assassination of JFK.

But it wasn't a false flag.

Your own link points out that there was a battle between American and north Vietnamese ships, several North Vietnamese sailors were killed.

It demonstrably fails in the concept of a false flag if there was a actual conflict between two opposing sides.

Ordered by LBJ to justify sending 2 million US soldiers into Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia when Kennedy was going to withdraw the 16000 that were there.

Again that's simply not true. As President JFK increased troops in Vietnam significantly, when he took office the number of troops in Vietnam was less than a thousand and within three years it was over 15,000

In addition there's no evidence that JFK was planning a withdrawl

Nothing in Kennedy's public utterances, however, suggested that he even remotely envisioned scuttling Vietnam. During an interview with Walter Cronkite in early September 1963, he affirmed his faith in the domino theory, adding, "I don't agree with those who say we should withdraw." He echoed that line in a talk with Chet Huntley: "We are not there to see a war lost." Had he delivered the address he was slated to give in Dallas, he would have declared that the involvement in Southeast Asia might be "painful, risky, and costly . . . but we dare not weary of the task." Robert Kennedy repeated the same thesis in an oral history interview, saying that the president "felt that he had a strong, overwhelming reason for being in Vietnam, and that we should win the war . . . . " When asked if his brother ever contemplated "pulling out," Bobby replied, "No."

This further demonstrates the kind of man LBJ was.

It clearly demonstrates how unreasonable you can be when someone presents evidence that disagrees with you.

BloodBath

But it wasn't a false flag.

Your own link points out that there was a battle between American and north Vietnamese ships, several North Vietnamese sailors were killed.

It demonstrably fails in the concept of a false flag if there was a actual conflict between two opposing sides.

Again do your own research and verify what I'm saying. All the evidence is there to show it was a pre planned operation.

The yanks were in North Vietnamese waters and fired first. The second incident didn't take place at all. Yet LBJ and the administration lied and said the first incident took place in international waters and that the North vietnamese fired first. They also said the second incident took place and then bombed targets in vietnam within 1.5 hours. The whole war escalation was based on a lie. Remind you of anything? Iraq maybe?

I can't just sum up these things in 1 link. You have to find the information yourself. What history records and what actually happens are often not the same thing.

Vicmature

BloodBath wrote: »

Again do your own research and verify what I'm saying. All the evidence is there to show it was a pre planned operation.

Perhaps you can present this evidence then because I simply can't find any, and the evidence you presented conflicts with what you claim happened.

There's a very interesting documentary called the Fog of War which features then defence secretary Robert Mc Namara discussing the incident.

The yanks were in North Vietnamese waters and fired first.

Your own link completed contradicts your claim. The Americans were 45km from the Vietnam coast. The Vietnamese fired first.

This is from evidence you yourself presented.

The second incident didn't take place at all. Yet LBJ and the administration lied and said the first incident took place in international waters and that the North vietnamese fired first.

All of that is utterly incorrect. At the time the US administration believed that they were attacked twice by the North Vietnamese (when in fact they were only attacked once).

But they were attacked by a enemy force.

Yet you persist in calling this a false flag which would suggest you don't understand what the term means.

They also said the second incident took place and then bombed targets in vietnam within 1.5 hours.

At the time they received credible reports that they were under attack. They had been attacked previously, and based on this erroneous intelligence they launched a counter attack. There is no evidence that when issuing the order for the counter attack they knew that the North Vietnamese had not attacked them a 2nd time.

The whole war escalation was based on a lie. Remind you of anything? Iraq maybe?

I've no idea why you think this non sequitur is relevant. Did Saddam attack US forces in the lead up to either of the Gulf wars? No.

I can't just sum up these things in 1 link.

Apparently you can't provide any links to support your assertion. In fact the only link you posted directly contradicts what you say happened.

You have to find the information yourself. What history records and what actually happens are often not the same thing.

Quite. And what you claim happened and what evidence you supply to support your claim is completely contradictory.

hoplon

Vicmature wrote: »

I will just saw that after reading this thread I have a few comments,

Bloodbath you come off very badly. Your tone and comments are needlessly agressive and obnoxious. Both yourself and Claypigeon have different opinions and yet you are incredibly abusive in your comments towards someone who apparently wants a civilised discussion.

I couldnt disagree more, if anything it is claypidgeon that is aggressive and obnoxious, certainly in their comments towards me, just read back.
I have asked questions and presented information or my ideas and they have declined to answer with their personal experience and are steadfast in their belief that the Warren commision absolutely was accurate and unbiased.

Vicmature wrote: »

Hoplon. The computer simulation (not computer game) is designed to demostrate that Oswald could have made the shots from the book depository. A tentpole of conspiracy theory thinking is that Oswald could not have made the shot from his location in the book depository ergo the shots could have come from elsewhere, the programmers intention was to clearly demonstrate Oswald could make the shot.

Whether the shot was possible or not is not something I disputed, whether Oswald could make it or not, I'm dubious, less so given the FBI determined the sight couldnt maintain the point of aim reliably, along with other discrepancies which have also been ignored like the information regarding the damage or marks to the spent cases from specific components internal in the rifle that did no match the rifle purportedly fired or that the pull weight on the trigger was inconsistent, not a quality for making extremely accurate shots.

Vicmature wrote: »

As to Oswald's proficiency. As has been demonstrated on this thread Oswald's skills' as a sharpshooter are proficient, the shot was within the range of the rifle he possessed, and he was added by a telescope scope. Oswald could easily have made the shot.

The idea that Oswald records were intentionally forged from the get go, or other absurd notions suggests that the plot to kill Kennedy was being formed when Oswald was in the marines (which would suggest people were planning to kill Kennedy well over a year before he even became president (Oswald was discharged in Oct 1959)

No, it does not suggest that the plot to assasinate kennedy existed then as you suggest at all, what it suggests is that upon taking his test for proficiency at skill in shooting (marksmanship) that Oswald barely passed on the first attempt, that much is absolutely accurate, marksman was the minimum achievable qualification. That means he either barely passed on his own or he was bumped up in score to just pass, its quite possible and for reasons unknown or not experienced by you, I have seen some terrible shots and god only knows how or why they could not hit the target but they were bumped up to minimum standard. So long as they are not dangerous and will follow orders people aren't failed, they are helped to pass, and I suspect its the same in many organisations across the world and at that or any other time including to the present, you dont fail willing volunteers in a time only a short few years after a major war was fought. Its not improbable that the scrap of paper presented as evidence of Oswalds abilty as a marksman was a fraudulent document that was forged later or on the day for different reasons. It may have been real and his later improvement was only after weeks of practice, hardly the qualities of an excellent shot.
It is also possible that individuals in certain militaries are groomed or selected for other positions in the future for unplanned operations or events, and although less likely its not impossible.

Vicmature wrote: »

But onto the thread title "Operation Northwoods Again"

When was operation Northwoods a reality.

Northwoods was a plan that never even got off the drawing board. It was the idea of detonating a drone claiming it was a US plane and blaming the Cubans.

This never happened.

To suggest we're in danger of, or indeed experiencing a 2nd northwoods is demonstrably false.

edit, why ever the carcano was used, I have no idea, if it was a springfield 1903 or something similar, I wouldnt question things as much.
Still, headshots on a moving target (at least one and another close), with a moderately crappy rifle that I have read criticism of the smoothness of the action among other things is just phenomenal. That in itself suggests either Oswald was a better shot than his records showed and that was either intentional as he was being groomed for something else, not necessarily kennedy but along those lines or the records were adjusted then or after,or that he really was not an excellent marksman and that someone else pulled the trigger.
These are my opinions on the topic and I really never intended to get drawn in and certainly not to argue with anyone. Im off.

BloodBath

Your own link completed contradicts your claim. The Americans were 45km from the Vietnam coast. The Vietnamese fired first.

You obviously haven't read it. This is from Wikipedia which I wouldn't expect to give the full story anyway.

Johnson ordered the ship to do what it did to bait the North vietnamese into returning fire then outright lied about all of it.

This account, however, has come into sharp dispute with an internal NSA historical study[7] which stated on page 17:

At 1500G, Captain Herrick (commander of the Maddox) ordered Ogier's gun crews to open fire if the boats approached within ten thousand yards. At about 1505G, the Maddox fired three rounds to warn off the communist boats. This initial action was never reported by the Johnson administration, which insisted that the Vietnamese boats fired first.[7]
The Maddox when confronted, was approaching Hòn Mê Island, three to four miles (6 km) inside the twelve-mile (19 km) limit claimed by North Vietnam. This territorial limit was unrecognized by the United States. After the skirmish, President Johnson ordered the Maddox and Turner Joy to stage daylight runs into North Vietnamese waters, testing the twelve-mile (19 km) limit and North Vietnamese resolve. These runs into North Vietnamese territorial waters coincided with South Vietnamese coastal raids and were interpreted as coordinated operations by the North, which officially acknowledged the engagements of 2 August 1964.[15]

Others, such as Admiral Sharp, maintained that U.S. actions did not provoke the August 2 action. He claimed that North Vietnamese radar had tracked Maddox along the coast, and was thus aware that the destroyer had not actually attacked North Vietnam and that Hanoi (or the local commander) had ordered its craft to engage Maddox anyway. North Vietnamese General Phùng Thế Tài later claimed that the Maddox had been tracked since July 31 and that it had attacked fishing boats on August 2, forcing North Vietnamese Navy to "fight back."[16]

claypigeon777

hoplon wrote: »

You are citing a computer game?

That screen shot is from an exact computer recreation by Dale Myers who made a 3D model of the Zapruder film.

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/concl1.htm

Myers determined that the shots were fired frames 157, 223 and 313 of the Zapruder film and since the film was 18.3 frames per second that means Oswald fired all three shots in about 8.5 secs.

This is the view that Oswald would have had from the 6th floor window.

I dont think 4 power would look that susbstantial at that distance and while Im not an expert, I have looked down the sights of a few large bore rifles, keeping on target is more difficult than you might imagine and certainly more difficult than a computer game.

This is an FBI reenactment of how the target would have looked through the scope of the rifle from 6th floor of the TSBD.

The targets look less substantial than you might think, moving targets, with a dodgy rifle not designed or modified for that purpose, under pressure, by a person not frequently or even recently practiced.

The Mannlicher Carcano rifle had been in the service of the Italian army for decades. It is a highly accurate weapon at long range with iron sights.

This is a video showing how the same type of weapon and ammunition could hit a moving target in almost precisely the same conditions as Oswald.

The image Oswald would have seen in his scope was the head and shoulders in a relatively stationary position as the car moved away downhill from the TSBD but diminishing in size at a distance of about 90 yards magnified by 4 by the scope.

An easy shot for a trained Marine rifleman.

Someone shooting needs to maintain their proficiency, Oswalds military performance doesnt mean much given it was years earlier and marksman was the minimum qualification and he just scored 1 or 2 points over failing, so it looks like he was "passed".

Oswald had ample opportunity to practice with his rifle and a number of witnesses independently claimed they saw him shooting at the Sports Drome Rifle Range in the weeks before the assassination.

People are known to forge documents even or especially in the military. There is nothing to prove that wasnt forged on the day he fired to not make someone look bad or just to get him through for some reason, or forged at a later date,or that it was a complete fluke.I cant prove its inaccurate any more than you can prove its true. But it doesnt seem he was a consistently excellent or even good shot. This for the guy who wants to go out and shoot a national leader, all on his own.

Oswald would have received thorough training with rifles in the USMC boot camp that all young recruits would have received in the 1950s and continue to receive to the present day. The doctrine of the Marines is once a Marine always a Marine and Every Marine A Rifleman. His proficiency with a rifle is a matter of record. You claimed that Oswald's records were destroyed and now you are moving the goal posts and claimed they were forged. You just don't want to admit you have been proven wrong once again!

Vicmature

BloodBath wrote: »

You obviously haven't read it. This is from Wikipedia which I wouldn't expect to give the full story anyway.

So why do you keep quoting and referencing it.

Johnson ordered the ship to do what it did to bait the North vietnamese into returning fire then outright lied about all of it.

Once again what you claim happen and what you quote to support your claim do not compare.

The Maddox was in international waters. The Vietnamese had a claim to a Island that the US did not recognize. The North Vietnamese approached the Maddox, aggressively and at 9000 yards the Maddox fired 3 warning shots (entirely reasonable when three heavily armed enemy torpedo boats are bearing down on you at speed). What tactic do you suppose they engage in? Remember the Maddox crew felt they were in international waters?). The Vietnamese shot at the Maddox first. At no point was the Maddox closer than 8 nautical miles from the Vietnamese coast (A country's boarder usually extends no more than 3 NM)
http://www.history.navy.mil/docs/vietnam/tonkin-2.htm


You have not provided ANY evidence to support your assertion that the Maddox's was acting on the explicit orders of president Johnson, to "provoke" the Vietnamese The North Vietnamese attacked a American warship in international waters. This demonstrably fails in the concept of what a false flag is supposed to. Your insistence on calling this attack on a US Naval vessel as a false flag, demonstrates that you don't understand what the term means.

stuar

This thread has been about everything but "Operation Northwoods born again", my own beliefs are that another similar plan has been approved and is active at this moment against Muslims with the intention of stirring up Islamaphobia both in the US and worldwide.


Vicmature, the "Gulf of Tonkin Incident" never occured, read this official .gov paper.

However, within the government, the
events of 4 August were never that clear. Even as
the last flare fizzled in the dark waters of the
South China Sea on that August night, there were
conflicting narratives and interpretations of what
had happened. James Stockdale, then a navy pilot
at the scene, who had "the best seat in the house
from which to detect boats," saw nothing. "No
boats," he would later write, "no boat wakes, no
ricochets off boats, no boat impacts, no torpedo
wakes - nothing but black sea and American firepower."

2 The commander of the Maddox task
force, Captain John J. Herrick, was not entirely
certain what had transpired. (Captain Herrick
actually was the commander of the destroyer division
to which the Maddox belonged. For this mission,
he was aboard as the on-site commander.)
Hours after the incident, he would radio the
Commander-in-Chief, Pacific (CINCPAC) telling
them that he was doubtful of many aspects of the
"attack."
(U) It would be years before any evidence
that an attack had not happened finally emerged
in the public domain, and even then, most reluctantly.
Yet, remarkably, some of the majorparticipants
in the events still maintained that the Gulf
of Tonkin incident had occurred just as it had

been originally reported.
http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/gulf_of_tonkin/articles/rel1_skunks_bogies.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HODxnUrFX6k

Records Show Doubts on ’64 Vietnam Crisis
“If this country has been misled, if this committee, this Congress, has been misled by pretext into a war in which thousands of young men have died, and many more thousands have been crippled for life, and out of which their country has lost prestige, moral position in the world, the consequences are very great,” Senator Albert Gore Sr. of Tennessee, the father of the future vice president, said in March 1968 in a closed session of the Foreign Relations Committee.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/15/world/asia/15vietnam.html?_r=0