No management company in estate. How bad can it be?

mrwhite2

Looking at buying a house in an estate with no management company. Solicitor doesn't like it. There is some site issues but I can live with no street lights etc. Main problem is sewage pump doesn't work however it does run away. Technically the resident could be liable for the work to fix the pump but they all say how can they enforce payment.
I have stalled on sale waiting to see what happens, ie will it get sorted out as people do want to start a management company. I have an attachment to the area and there is a lack of other homes available for my new family. A friend bought one and is loving it as it really is a nice area. All the other residents seem to think the council or someone will eventually fix the problems
Am I over cautious ?

ABajaninCork

No, I don't think so. From what you've said, I don't like the sound of it either. It doesn't matter how nice the house and area are, you're in for a world of pain with no management company!! How are the issues to be resolved? Who decides who pays and how much??

The fact that the main sewage pipe doesn't work would be a showstopper for me. That alone would have me running for the hills, if you'll forgive the pun...Where does the sewage run to? Do you know??

No street lights would be a major issue too from a safety perspective.

I'd walk away.

athtrasna

mrwhite2 wrote: »

Technically the resident could be liable for the work to fix the pump but they all say how can they enforce payment.

Not technically, legally. In buying in a managed estate you become a member of the management company and become jointly liable with the other members for any running costs of the development. You sign legal documents agreeing to this, and they can be enforced.

L1011

There's hundreds of estates with no management company - it wasn't normal until recently and there's some counties where it never became common. What happens is the developer looks after it until the council takes it in to charge and maintains the public areas (to some very minor extent) and public facilities. However, the developer appears to be gone here and the council are highly unlikely to take the estate in to charge in that condition...

Contact the council and local councillors to see if there are any plans to take it in to charge. If there isn't, walk away. The existing residents are going to have a fight on their hands to get it resolved and there's no need for you to bring that on yourself.

For Paws

As you may know from your solicitor, a property management company is usually formed by the site developer and it's initial responsibilities are carried out by their offices. After site completion and sale of the housing units an Annual General Meeting is called by the company directors and a new board of directors is elected from the new owners. The business of the company - management of the estate- is continued by the new directors. It is often the case that arrangements made by the developers such as landscaping contracts etc are still in place, and must be honoured by the new directors. In time, the new directors (who usually hold a directorship for 1 year before resigning or putting their names forward for election again by the shareholders / property owners) may effect any change they consider prudent, principally the levying of a communal charge to pay for the ongoing estate management and a 'sinking fund' which is set up against the possibility of a one-off major cost item.

Without a functioning management company who insures the 'common areas' of your estate, who maintains any communal fire detection equipment, who cuts the grass & weeds the pathways ?
These are (only some) of the things mngt companies do.

Find out ;
(1) Did the developer set up a management company ?
It may be necessary (if the developer is 'bust') to search the Companies Registration Office -CRO.ie for such a company.
Hint; If your estate is called 'Lios na Gabhann' then search using the estate name.

(2) If you locate the company, get a copy of the Memorandum & Articles Of Association of the Company from the CRO & bring them to your / a solicitor.

(3) If you confirm that no management company was ever set up, you can always set one up. Organise a meeting of the residents and bring your / a solicitor along to explain why you all need a management company.
If you choose to proceed without doing so, Good Luck !
You're going to need lots of it !

mrwhite2

The developer is bust but the residents all feel that the council is liable as they were negligent during the planning process by allowing the builder to build before the sewage pump etc was fixed. To be honest I have rented here for 10 years and would be a dream to buy a house. The sewage runs down hill till a holding tank were the pump doesn't work. It just sits there like a large septic tank.

the council say that irish water taking over will be a game changer. not sure why

mrwhite2

Have thought about this but how do u collect fees. The people who bought early in the estate are in negative equity and others have the houses as holiday homes so don't care about communal areas. Is eventually councils not going to have to go in and sort out these messes.

For Paws

mrwhite2 wrote: »

The developer is bust but the residents all feel that the council is liable as they were negligent during the planning process by allowing the builder to build before the sewage pump etc was fixed. To be honest I have rented here for 10 years and would be a dream to buy a house. The sewage runs down hill till a holding tank were the pump doesn't work. It just sits there like a large septic tank.

the council say that irish water taking over will be a game changer. not sure why

Unlikely that County Council is in any way negligent simply because the developer may have breached the conditions of his planning permission.

Has the sewage tank never been emptied in 10 years ? :eek:

Cost of a new pump shared by (how many) householders ?

Irish Water may view the present arrangements for sewage storage & treatment as being sub-standard but that's a while off yet.

Get the householders organised and go from there.

ABajaninCork

Because Irish Water are the new authorities who will (should) be taking over the water infrastructure. What makes the residents think the council is liable - Have they taken legal advice to that effect?

I would have thought the sewage pipe would've been fixed as a matter of urgency for H & S reasons alone. But WHO fixes it, who's liable for the charge to fix and the percentage that should be paid are serious unanswered questions.

As another poster says. It is very unlikely the council will take the estate in charge in its present condition. What steps are being taken to address the problems?

Yes, it's your dream house in your dream estate. But don't let emotion take over which might lead to you making a VERY expensive mistake. Your solicitor seems to be on the ball. I'd be asking some hard questions via him.

the_syco

mrwhite2 wrote: »

There is some site issues but I can live with no street lights etc.

Grand once you never intend on having kids.

mrwhite2 wrote: »

Main problem is sewage pump doesn't work however it does run away.

How long before the tank fills, and the sewage backs up?

mrwhite2 wrote: »

Technically the resident could be liable for the work to fix the pump but they all say how can they enforce payment.

How about they just ask for payment up front?

mrwhite2 wrote: »

ie will it get sorted out as people do want to start a management company.

How long has the estate being there?

mrwhite2 wrote: »

All the other residents seem to think the council or someone will eventually fix the problems

F**king Santa Claus? Sorry dude, but it seems that people are clutching at straws, and I can't see the council wanting to touch the estate until the estate is finished, which doesn't sound likely.

mrwhite2 wrote: »

Am I over cautious ?

You're thinking with your heart, not your head. The others are in neq equity, as no-one wants to buy a house in a half finished estate with a ticking time bomb septic tank.

athtrasna

mrwhite2 wrote: »

Have thought about this but how do u collect fees. The people who bought early in the estate are in negative equity and others have the houses as holiday homes so don't care about communal areas. Is eventually councils not going to have to go in and sort out these messes.

You get a judgement against the property owner, you send the sheriff in to seize goods, you get a judgement mortgage against the owner...and in some cases there's even a forfeiture clause in the deeds with the management company.

OP you really don't appear to understand what a management company is and what rights and responsibilities you have when buying in a managed development. It's really important that you research these in general first and then apply the knowledge in considering this particular estate.

jmayo

mrwhite2 wrote: »

The developer is bust but the residents all feel that the council is liable as they were negligent during the planning process by allowing the builder to build before the sewage pump etc was fixed.

Sometimes I get a feeling that I might win the big euromillions pot, but invariably nothing happens.
Feeling something is worth shag all.
Good luck with making the council liable for planning failures. :rolleyes:

mrwhite2 wrote: »

To be honest I have rented here for 10 years and would be a dream to buy a house. The sewage runs down hill till a holding tank were the pump doesn't work. It just sits there like a large septic tank.

So basically the **** hasn't hit the fan yet.
And when it does the residents hope someone sorts it out.

mrwhite2 wrote: »

the council say that irish water taking over will be a game changer. not sure why

You have already written the cons down here (a sewage system that is not working properly and invariably will cost you money, no management of the estate, half finished estate with no lighting) and most if not all posters are telling you NO.

Reading between the lines you are set on fulfilling your dream of buying there and you just want us to confirm that it is a good deal.

Well it isn't and sooner or later you and the others will realise you are going to have to pay handsomely to put things right.

Life is too short and you can spend your time and money better than worrying when the toilet is going to back up.

markpb

I could sum this up like this:

1. It's not the builders problem because they're out of business
2. It's not the councils problem because they don't own it.
3. It probably won't be Irish Waters problem because a) they don't own it and b) it's not water

Who does that leave except the owners who are all in denial about a giant pool of s**t collecting near their estate? No-one is going to come along and solve this for them.

Lantus

mrwhite2 wrote: »

Looking at buying a house in an estate with no management company. Solicitor doesn't like it. There is some site issues but I can live with no street lights etc. Main problem is sewage pump doesn't work however it does run away. Technically the resident could be liable for the work to fix the pump but they all say how can they enforce payment.
I have stalled on sale waiting to see what happens, ie will it get sorted out as people do want to start a management company. I have an attachment to the area and there is a lack of other homes available for my new family. A friend bought one and is loving it as it really is a nice area. All the other residents seem to think the council or someone will eventually fix the problems
Am I over cautious ?

no management company means the residents wil likley be liable to pay for this through voluntary contributions. The more people opt out the more that those who do pay will have to subsidise. I would check the local autority and see if they will take this in charge but typically they just take on lights, roads, paths and PL for those areas these days. Machinery and other maintenance is usually not considered.

If this is a very small estate they could request a plebicite which is a froced taking incharge but even then the local coco can delay it years and years.

be very wary. if a problem develops with this then it will be expensive and messy to resolve and properties may be uninhabitable and financially ruined as a result. The lovely area could become worthless quite quickly. Dont expect the coco to swoop in and solve your problems if this happens. They wont. The people nearest the pumping station will get hit first if it backs up.

I have seen backed up drains and the damage is biblical.

L1011

Lantus wrote: »

Machinery and other maintenance is usually not considered.

Kildare CC will take sewage plant in charge, but it has to be working and to safety and environmental standards first. That's creating huge delays for an estate nearby to me also.

Previous estate I lived in had a massive rainwater attenuation system and was taken in charge but I suspect that was a planning condition in the first place - the field it was built on used to flood from the motorway beside it.

Lantus

MYOB wrote: »

Kildare CC will take sewage plant in charge, but it has to be working and to safety and environmental standards first. That's creating huge delays for an estate nearby to me also.

Previous estate I lived in had a massive rainwater attenuation system and was taken in charge but I suspect that was a planning condition in the first place - the field it was built on used to flood from the motorway beside it.

your right in the fact that what the coco will take in charge is usually decided over brandy and cigars at a very early stage by the developer and directors in the coco. check planning conditions as it may be spelt out in there. If there is no management company it could be unreasonable to expect local residents to maintain this via a voluntary system on H&S grounds.

mrwhite2

There is a bond the builder had of 90k Council say this can only be used for bits the builder didn't finish they see the problem as lack of maintance however this is untrue as it was never fully working

mrwhite2

markpb wrote: »

I could sum this up like this:

1. It's not the builders problem because they're out of business
2. It's not the councils problem because they don't own it.
3. It probably won't be Irish Waters problem because a) they don't own it and b) it's not water

Who does that leave except the owners who are all in denial about a giant pool of s**t collecting near their estate? No-one is going to come along and solve this for them.

Irish water are actually in charge of sewage

SpaceTime

OP: Why would you even consider buying something with this much baggage?

I'd suggest you start looking elsewhere.
You are potentially bringing a whole load of trouble upon yourself for absolutely no reason.

That sewage situation sounds really bad and I would actually think it could end up causing all sorts of problems and ultimately getting the EPA and the County Council involved, especially if the tank leaks or starts to emit gas as it's not a septic tank and would not be designed to function as one.

None of us would have even a remote idea of how much remedial works might cost without a full civil engineering survey of the estate.

So, perhaps the best approach would be : do not touch with a barge pole!

the_syco

mrwhite2 wrote: »

Irish water are actually in charge of sewage

For finished or also unfinished estates?

ABajaninCork

I would imagine Irish Water will take the same stance as the CC. They won't take the sewage system in charge until it's up to spec. Have you checked this with them?

professore

Isn't this exactly the kind of thing that the household charge should cover?

mrwhite2

SpaceTime wrote: »

OP: Why would you even consider buying something with this much baggage?

I'd suggest you start looking elsewhere.
You are potentially bringing a whole load of trouble upon yourself for absolutely no reason.

That sewage situation sounds really bad and I would actually think it could end up causing all sorts of problems and ultimately getting the EPA and the County Council involved, especially if the tank leaks or starts to emit gas as it's not a septic tank and would not be designed to function as one.

None of us would have even a remote idea of how much remedial works might cost without a full civil engineering survey of the estate.

So, perhaps the best approach would be : do not touch with a barge pole!

I wish it was that simple. I lived here long before estate was buillt and area is special for lots of reasons. There is also very few options to buy for family homes. Crazy really, heaps of apartments for 40k but no 3 or 4 bedroom houses at a decent standard. This area was the preserve for rich holiday homers in the past now locals can afford but not without problems. Such a beautiful area people still drive arround on weekend tyre kicking the few unfinished houses. Hard to watch other families buy bargains and I am just renting with no security. I am not stupid enough to dive in hence this post without considering everything. If u buy but factor in having to pay 10k for services etc is this stupid. Worried when problems sorted prices will be beyond me.

ABajaninCork

professore wrote: »

Isn't this exactly the kind of thing that the household charge should cover?

AFAIK - it doesn't. But stand to be corrected on that.

mrwhite2

ABajaninCork wrote: »

AFAIK - it doesn't. But stand to be corrected on that.

U are right nothing to do with household charge but u would be right to think so. I spoke to someone for council who said beware Irish water as cc can have pressure applied with moral arguments through politicians etc but Irish water will only care about shareholders

athtrasna

professore wrote: »

Isn't this exactly the kind of thing that the household charge should cover?

No household charge any more? We have a property tax which is precisely that, a tax.

hfallada

There are dozens of really old housing estates in Dublin with no management company but its fine as DCC is responsible for lighting, road maintenance, cleaning etc. Take Iona in Glasnevin/ Drumcondra has no management company and was built in the 1900s. Generally if there is any issues regarding infrastructure the residents association meet and get DCC to sort it out. But then again the houses are really well built and the same builder has roads that were build 90 years ago and are near perfect

athtrasna

hfallada wrote: »

There are dozens of really old housing estates in Dublin with no management company but its fine as DCC is responsible for lighting, road maintenance, cleaning etc. Take Iona in Glasnevin/ Drumcondra has no management company and was built in the 1900s. Generally if there is any issues regarding infrastructure the residents association meet and get DCC to sort it out. But then again the houses are really well built and the same builder has roads that were build 90 years ago and are near perfect

Totally different situation. Management companies were part of the planning permission for a whole load of estates in the last 20 years. Councils no longer take estates over wholesale and even when they do take them in charge they rarely take over all the services.

What's unclear in this case is whether or not a MC was part of the planning permission of this estate, and if there actually was one that was dissolved/struck off.

mrwhite2

athtrasna wrote: »

Totally different situation. Management companies were part of the planning permission for a whole load of estates in the last 20 years. Councils no longer take estates over wholesale and even when they do take them in charge they rarely take over all the services.

What's unclear in this case is whether or not a MC was part of the planning permission of this estate, and if there actually was one that was dissolved/struck off.

The developer went bust before the management company was setup. It was part of the planning application. The councils don't want to touch but its seems the authorities and developers were too close.

athtrasna

mrwhite2 wrote: »

The developer went bust before the management company was setup. It was part of the planning application. The councils don't want to touch but its seems the authorities and developers were too close.

Did the developer go bust before any properties were sold? It's the only way no MC could have been set up, would have had to be in place before anyone purchased in the estate.

mrwhite2

athtrasna wrote: »

Did the developer go bust before any properties were sold? It's the only way no MC could have been set up, would have had to be in place before anyone purchased in the estate.

This is a very good question. As far as I can see all purchases were for cash. Amazing location so I guess people had cash in boom

athtrasna

mrwhite2 wrote: »

This is a very good question. As far as I can see all purchases were for cash. Amazing location so I guess people had cash in boom

if properties were sold a management company would have had to have been set up. Typically the developer will remain director of the management company until the last unit is sold.

mrwhite2

athtrasna wrote: »

if properties were sold a management company would have had to have been set up. Typically the developer will remain director of the management company until the last unit is sold.

He has gone bust so the liquidator owns the land. They have no interest in getting involved as the developer gave away or sold most of the sites and houses

athtrasna

So has the management company been struck off? A check on cro.ie might reveal the status...management companies are generally registered as Development Name Management Company Ltd.

mrwhite2

athtrasna wrote: »

So has the management company been struck off? A check on cro.ie might reveal the status...management companies are generally registered as Development Name Management Company Ltd.

There is no management company as it was struck off when developer went bust. In the meantime it suits the residents as no fees and no one liable. Solicitors don't want to touch but others have said problem so big eventually government will have to sort out. Already a recent court case forced local county council to take an estate in charge.

athtrasna

mrwhite2 wrote: »

There is no management company as it was struck off when developer went bust. In the meantime it suits the residents as no fees and no one liable. Solicitors don't want to touch but others have said problem so big eventually government will have to sort out. Already a recent court case forced local county council to take an estate in charge.

I really wouldn't go near it with a barge pole. It's not as simple as no fees and the government "sorting it out". No solicitor worth their salt would let you buy in that development and with very good reason.

mrwhite2

athtrasna wrote: »

I really wouldn't go near it with a barge pole. It's not as simple as no fees and the government "sorting it out". No solicitor worth their salt would let you buy in that development and with very good reason.

Of course solicitors are advising that but people are snapping up bargains. That's my main point here. How bad can it be. If u buy with a discount and factor in costs in the future in the 10k region. Some People have lived here for 10 years with no issues. There really is so few options arround our locality and this area is special to me having lived here for 15 years.

ABajaninCork

mrwhite2 wrote: »

Of course solicitors are advising that but people are snapping up bargains. That's my main point here. How bad can it be. If u buy with a discount and factor in costs in the future in the 10k region. Some People have lived here for 10 years with no issues. There really is so few options arround our locality and this area is special to me having lived here for 15 years.

Your desperation to buy this house is clouding your judgement. We've told you over and over.

• The estate is a ticking time bomb wrt sewage. That alone should have you running away. Nobody knows when, how and the cost of fixing the pump. More worryingly - nobody seems to want to do anything about it. From what you've posted, the residents think the council will come in on their white chargers to put things right...
  
• There's no street lights. Major security issue right there.
  
• The estate has not been taken in charge by the CC. Neither is it likely to be until the estate is in a suitable position to be taken on.

BTW - you've factored in costs of 10k. Where did you get this figure from and what will it cover? Do/will you have this sum set aside?

What are you paying your solicitor for if you're going to ignore the advice given??

D3PO

fools and their money are easily parted ......

Surely this thread has run its course. EVERYBODY says its a bad idea and the OP isn't listening. So really what is the point of this ?

Roselm

Im not sure if ye are buying without needing a mortgage? My mother was going to buy a similar sounding place outright-no mortgage but was told a bank wouldnt approve a mortgage for such a property so IF she ever needed to it would be nearly possible to sell...

riclad

WELL in dublin theres a few managed estates ,but you,d expect a good discount on the house price as you have to pay x grand per year ,on top of your mortgage.

DO not buy this house,
this is a really bad deal.

MAYBE look at an older house in the area,or a cheap apartment.

the_syco

D3PO wrote: »

fools and their money are easily parted ......

Gawd dang-it; I was hoping to use that line :pac:

mrwhite2 wrote: »

Of course solicitors are advising that but people are snapping up bargains. That's my main point here. How bad can it be.

VERY F**KING BAD.

That's how bad. We've been telling you, but you are not listening. You say other people are buying the properties? Well, other people have bought shoebox apartments for €300k without a second thought. Doesn't mean it's very clever?

mrwhite2

D3PO wrote: »

fools and their money are easily parted ......

Surely this thread has run its course. EVERYBODY says its a bad idea and the OP isn't listening. So really what is the point of this ?

The point is why is so little known about what can happen. Lawyers don't want hassle so easy to say no. Arround here this problem is everywhere . For the country to move on something will have to be done. Despite searching online I can't find 1 case of councils etc charging residents. I have been sensible and waited watching others buying houses etc which is hard with a young family and having saved for years. There really is so few alternatives I have to consider this fully. There is so many people involved in this hard to see political will to evict or charge residents

ABajaninCork

mrwhite2 wrote: »

The point is why is so little known about what can happen. Lawyers don't want hassle so easy to say no. Arround here this problem is everywhere . For the country to move on something will have to be done. Despite searching online I can't find 1 case of councils etc charging residents.

There's a reason for that...

mrwhite2 wrote: »

I have been sensible and waited watching others buying houses etc which is hard with a young family and having saved for years. There really is so few alternatives I have to consider this fully. There is so many people involved in this hard to see political will to evict or charge residents

So why are you looking to jump in with both feet, KNOWING there are serious problems? It beggars belief!!

Even your solicitor has raised concerns, and you're STILL not taking the advice on board. Throw away your money if you really must. But you can't say you weren't warned.

StillWaters

Councils have charged residents. Private roads are resurfaced by Councils regularly and the cost is then borne by the residents. I know of a case recently where is cost €6000 per household (rural road). This will be no different.
I have no idea of the cost of fixing the sewerage, but it will have to be borne by the residents, not the Council or Irish Water.

If the house is very cheap and you have the cash to buy and have an idea of how much it will cost to fix, it may very well be a bargain.

The_Conductor

How much is it going to cost- and how many people might this be apportioned between? Is the Management Company still legally constituted? How do you feel about issuing legal judgements and putting legal mortgages on your new neighbours properties?

D3PO

mrwhite2 wrote: »

. Lawyers don't want hassle so easy to say no.

Laywers are duty bound to infom you of the issues. Its no hassle for them if you decided to jump in with both feet afterwards. They don't have to deal with the sh*t both figuratively and literally.

camphor

mrwhite2 wrote: »

This is a very good question. As far as I can see all purchases were for cash. Amazing location so I guess people had cash in boom

You said in you third post that some of those who bought in early in the estate are in negative equity. If they are in negative equity how could they possibly have paid cash?

Thoie

mrwhite2 wrote: »

Lawyers don't want hassle so easy to say no.

Just want to make sure I'm clear on this. You are paying a professional for their time and expertise. Their professional advice doesn't match what you want to hear, so you've come on the internet to ask a bunch of strangers with no verifiable qualifications to agree with you.

If your doctor said the red pills will make you better, but the blue pills taste of sunshine and fluffiness and will kill you, which would you take?

angelfire9

You could easily be talking about the estate I live in
Developer gone into liquidation
Snag list a mile long waiting to be sorted
The development bond was lodged with Anglo Irish and is therefore now gone
No street lights in a big chunk of the estate
Sewage pump gone

No management company, the residents association organises the grass cutting & general tidying up

BUT under health & safety legislation the sewage is emptied every 6 weeks by the council
We are in talks with the council to get the lights fixed

jam_mac_jam

You are mad to be even considering in buying somewhere that has sewage issues. Whatever about putting up with no streetlights