At least 20 killed in Spain train crash - (reports)

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At least 20 killed in Spain train crash - ( early reports)

There are reports that at least 20 people have been killed after a train derailed in Galicia in Spain.
Galician television and Cadena Ser radio station have cited witnesses as saying an explosion was heard before the train derailed.
The accident happened outside the northern city of Santiago de Compostela.
Local media has reported that all the train carriages derailed.
A spokesman for the regional government's office confirmed there had been an accident, but said no further details were available.
Emergency services and police were not immediately available for comment.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0724/464492-spain-train-crash/
http://www.itv.com/news/story/2013-07-24/santiago-de-compostela-spain-train-crash/

Lisha

Can only imagine its a nightmare for all passengers, staff, and rescue team at the moment.
Thoughts are with them.

delthedriver

Shocking. Thoughts with all involved

Itssoeasy

It's being reported that at least 35 are dead now.

A Dub in Glasgo

Terrible tragedy

RTE website now saying that the death toll has reached 56.

Someone I know in Madrid mentioned that El País reported that the train was travelling at 180 km/h in an 80 km/h zone.

flyingsnail

The death toll is now up to 77

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/almost-80-die-in-spain-train-disaster-601636.html

SpaceTime

Awful.

That looks like one of the El Patito trains. They're a gauge changing train that can run at near AVE speeds on high speed track and at up to 200kmh on normal lines. They are very common on the lines to the North of Spain to cities like Bilbao, Pamplona etc etc

I think they're built by Talgo.

I wonder what happened though. The Spanish network is generally extremely modern.

I hope it's not something to do with the gauge shifting bogies.

Edit-

El Mundo is reporting that the train was running at 190km/h on a curve with a 80km/h speed limit!!!

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/07/25/espana/1374740051.html

Either very dangerous driving or maybe a failure of the control systems??

Mycroft H

BBC reporting that the driver had said that he was driving at 190km/h. Speed is going to come under scrutiny in the subsequent investigation

Yakuza

From El Pais: http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2013/07/25/actualidad/1374713876_139202.html

Las señales ferroviarias de la zona del siniestro no permiten sobrepasar los 80 kilómetros por hora, pero el conductor no precisó por qué el tren circulaba al doble de esa velocidad. Si se trató de un fallo técnico o de un fallo humano es algo que tendrá aún que determinarse en la investigación de las causas del siniestro. Pero, a tenor de lo expuesto por el conductor, el tren, que venía de circular a una gran velocidad —superando los 200 kilómetros por hora—, no frenó lo suficiente y duplicó la velocidad permitida en una curva muy complicada y muy cerrada. Fue justo en ese lugar y en ese momento cuando el tren acabó descarrilando y provocando decenas de muertos.

A rough translation: (It's Google translated with some polishing by me, I speak Spanish but there were some words I wasn't sure of)

Railway signals in the area of the incidient do not permit speed to exceed 80 km per hour, but the driver did not say why the train ran at twice that speed. Whether it was a technical failure or human error will be something that will be determined in the investigation of the causes of the accident. But, according to the statement made by the driver, the train which when at a speed in excess of 200 kilometers per hour, was not not slow enough and more than double the speed limit on a very tight curve. It was in that exact place and time that the train ended up derailing and causing dozens of deaths.

Thoughts to the victims and their families RIP.

wonski

Just watched CCTV footage and it looked shocking.
Speed was definitely a factor, but can't believe driver just ignored the limit. Could be mixture of human driver and system failure.

Thoughts with all affected by this tragedy.

Grandeeod

Shocking stuff alright. This has appeared on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH_IjAxDwLo

AlekSmart

Grandeeod wrote: »

Shocking stuff alright. This has appeared on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH_IjAxDwLo

Just lookin at that Video,it seems something was going wrong around the first or second carriage as the train entered the curve.

Difficult to pin down timewise,but around 0.004 seconds definite signs of that carriage rising just before impact ?

Speed has to be the main factor,with perhaps resultant strain on couplings then adding to it.

We place so much confidence in our modes of high-speed travel these days,but occurences such as this underline just how fast that confidence can turn to terror.

A true disaster and an awful day for Spain and for RENFE/Emergency staff dealing with the aftermath.

Mycroft H

Is there a TPWS system in Spain?

SpaceTime

I'm surprised some kind of automated signal / speed control system didn't kick in but I think that's non-highspeed line.

Amigaman

from the video and google maps i worked it out at 195 kmph , on that bend they never stood a chance of making it ...what a tragic senseless accident...thoughts and prayers for the dead and bereaved.

Jamie2k9

There is a system like TPWS system in Spain but just finishes near the site of the crash. Then an older system kicks in but it should still tell driver if he is over the limit but I don't think it can stop/slow the train down.

Cookie_Monster

AlekSmart wrote: »

Just lookin at that Video,it seems something was going wrong around the first or second carriage as the train entered the curve.

Difficult to pin down timewise,but around 0.004 seconds definite signs of that carriage rising just before impact ?

that looks to me like with the excessive speed it finally just lifted off the inside rail and then the carriages came apart

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

wonski

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There is a system like TPWS system in Spain but just finishes near the site of the crash. Then an older system kicks in but it should still tell driver if he is over the limit but I don't think it can stop/slow the train down.

According to my source, which isn't in English, the system they use is called ASFA, and it will slow the train down only if it goes over 200km/h.
It does send message to the cabin, why it was ignored - time will tell.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

wonski

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It won't work unless train exceeds 200km/h.
Train driver was arrested in hospital and questioned.
His Facebook account was closed - there was a picture of him going 200km/h.

Jamie2k9

i

wonski wrote: »

According to my source, which isn't in English, the system they use is called ASFA, and it will slow the train down only if it goes over 200km/h.
It does send message to the cabin, why it was ignored - time will tell.

High Speed routes in Spain use ERTMAS signalling which can take full control of the train if its above the normal speed and the driver will have to reset the system once it comes to a stop before they can operate it. ASFA was replaced by ERTMAS level 1 or 2 some years ago.

The area of the accident is not controlled by ETMAS but by a much older system which can only tell the driver he is above speed but unable to stop the train, this older system kicks in very close to the bend.

What stands out is when it leaves ETMAS controlled zone its operating at 200lm'h but then needs to drop to 80km at a bend. I'm sure they will be looking at if the 80km bend speed signs gave enough time for the train to slow down from 200 and having two different signalling systems and such high differences in speed will be a key part in the investigation. If it was all ETMAS the control centre would of had the control to slow the train well before the bend if the driver had not started to in time.

The service was running behind schedule which may of played a factor.

murphaph

So it seems the driver was a fan of going fast and taking pics of it? Or is it too early to say that?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

A Dub in Glasgo

ETCS (the signalling bit of ERTMS) enforces speed control and movement authority. The High Speed route merges into the older route and the signalling system changes to the older ASFA which only indicates speed control approaching signals at red. The signal was green therefore ASFA did not kick in and there is nothing to enforce speed control around the curve.

This, in my view, was very risky as the line speed goes from 200kph to 80kph in a short space of time and ETCS should have been designed to slow the train down to an appropriate speed before it left the ETCS control area and into the older signalling area or approach control from red applied to the signal closest to the curve.

ardmacha

The area of the accident is not controlled by ETMAS but by a much older system which can only tell the driver he is above speed but unable to stop the train, this older system kicks in very close to the bend.

Presumably some sort of automatic system is needed which only allows high speeds while under the control of the ETMAS, with a lower restriction otherwise, perhaps not 80kmh but say 120kmh for regular track. So when you leave the high speed section, you have to slow down to some extent at least.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

This, in my view, was very risky as the line speed goes from 200kph to 80kph in a short space of time and ETCS should have been designed to slow the train down to an appropriate speed before it left the ETCS control area and into the older signalling area or approach control from red applied to the signal closest to the curve.

This would do the trick.

So it seems the driver was a fan of going fast and taking pics of it? Or is it too early to say that?

If the driver was driving on 200kmh rated sections of track then he was only doing his job by doing that speed, people put all sorts of things on Facebook. So it is too early to say.

Jamie2k9

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

ETCS (the signaling bit of ERTMS) enforces speed control and movement authority. The High Speed route merges into the older route and the signalling system changes to the older ASFA which only indicates speed control approaching signals at red. The signal was green therefore ASFA did not kick in and there is nothing to enforce speed control around the curve.

This, in my view, was very risky as the line speed goes from 200kph to 80kph in a short space of time and ETCS should have been designed to slow the train down to an appropriate speed before it left the ETCS control area and into the older signalling area or approach control from red applied to the signal closest to the curve.

The bend where the accident happened only opened around 2 years ago, its amazing that it was build with a 80kmh limit and the fact it didn't have ETCS is unbelievable, if it was 10 or 20 years old then it may be acceptable to have ASFA signiling but its not.

So it seems the driver was a fan of going fast and taking pics of it? Or is it too early to say that?

Way to early to say,

a - the train was delayed, company could put pressure on drivers to make up the time, unlike Irish Rail from my experience on Spanish railways including high speed they don't have extra time to make up delays in timetable.

b - I read that the driver only operated that route around 60 times in the 30 or so years he was in the company. Not very often and until we know when he last operated it before the accident.

c - Until we know if the signalling system warned of a 80kmph zone ahead then nobody can be blamed. As for the picture on FB, if I was a driver I would put one up. You can't be expected to remember a specific speed zone when you travel all over Spain. I have seen it here in Ireland when a driver doesn't take notice for whatever reason of the TSR warning ahead and only realises when he sees the sign at the TSR section.

SpaceTime

I wonder if there's overlap ?

I mean, if the two systems change ... would the fancier new system just come to an abrupt end and the older system start all of a sudden?

So, you might get no alert of an upcoming speed restriction or maybe a very short notice of it

Perhaps the systems didn't switch over and the 200km/h signal remained active on the train and it just didn't detect the older system when it crossed the line?

I'd like to see how the changeover works and if it's possible that the train may have failed to pick up the new signals.

It just seems a little suspicious that it happened so close to the change of systems.

A Dub in Glasgo

My understanding is that there was nothing to detect as the older system was only available if the signal is at red which it wasn't.

It should be noted that ETCS does not drive the train, it gives movement authority and enforces speed limits. The driver drives the train, unfortunately there was nothing to enforce the speed limit around the curve

A Dub in Glasgo

A bit of an update, it is reported that the train type does not have approval for using ETCS on the line therefore the whole service looks as if it was being 'protected' by the older system!

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/europe/etcs-not-operable-on-santiago-crash-train.html

The accident occurred in the transition section between ETCS Level 1, which is used on the 87km Ourense – Santiago high-speed line over which the train had travelled, and the standard Spanish Asfa system used on the conventional network. Santiago is one of dozens of ETCS-Asfa transition points on the Spanish network.

IRJ has learned from a senior source at Renfe that while ETCS is operable on the Ourense – Santiago high-speed line, class 730 sets of the type involved in the derailment operate exclusively on Asfa on this route despite the fact that they are equipped with ETCS. All other passenger trains operating on this line, including the fleet of class 121 Avant emus, operate on ETCS. The reasons for this have not yet been firmly established.