At least 20 killed in Spain train crash - (reports)

flyingsnail

At least 20 killed in Spain train crash - ( early reports)

There are reports that at least 20 people have been killed after a train derailed in Galicia in Spain.
Galician television and Cadena Ser radio station have cited witnesses as saying an explosion was heard before the train derailed.
The accident happened outside the northern city of Santiago de Compostela.
Local media has reported that all the train carriages derailed.
A spokesman for the regional government's office confirmed there had been an accident, but said no further details were available.
Emergency services and police were not immediately available for comment.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0724/464492-spain-train-crash/
http://www.itv.com/news/story/2013-07-24/santiago-de-compostela-spain-train-crash/

Lisha

Can only imagine its a nightmare for all passengers, staff, and rescue team at the moment.
Thoughts are with them.

delthedriver

Shocking. Thoughts with all involved

Itssoeasy

It's being reported that at least 35 are dead now.

A Dub in Glasgo

Terrible tragedy

RTE website now saying that the death toll has reached 56.

Someone I know in Madrid mentioned that El País reported that the train was travelling at 180 km/h in an 80 km/h zone.

flyingsnail

The death toll is now up to 77

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/almost-80-die-in-spain-train-disaster-601636.html

SpaceTime

Awful.

That looks like one of the El Patito trains. They're a gauge changing train that can run at near AVE speeds on high speed track and at up to 200kmh on normal lines. They are very common on the lines to the North of Spain to cities like Bilbao, Pamplona etc etc

I think they're built by Talgo.

I wonder what happened though. The Spanish network is generally extremely modern.

I hope it's not something to do with the gauge shifting bogies.

Edit-

El Mundo is reporting that the train was running at 190km/h on a curve with a 80km/h speed limit!!!

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/07/25/espana/1374740051.html

Either very dangerous driving or maybe a failure of the control systems??

Mycroft H

BBC reporting that the driver had said that he was driving at 190km/h. Speed is going to come under scrutiny in the subsequent investigation

Yakuza

From El Pais: http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2013/07/25/actualidad/1374713876_139202.html

Las señales ferroviarias de la zona del siniestro no permiten sobrepasar los 80 kilómetros por hora, pero el conductor no precisó por qué el tren circulaba al doble de esa velocidad. Si se trató de un fallo técnico o de un fallo humano es algo que tendrá aún que determinarse en la investigación de las causas del siniestro. Pero, a tenor de lo expuesto por el conductor, el tren, que venía de circular a una gran velocidad —superando los 200 kilómetros por hora—, no frenó lo suficiente y duplicó la velocidad permitida en una curva muy complicada y muy cerrada. Fue justo en ese lugar y en ese momento cuando el tren acabó descarrilando y provocando decenas de muertos.

A rough translation: (It's Google translated with some polishing by me, I speak Spanish but there were some words I wasn't sure of)

Railway signals in the area of the incidient do not permit speed to exceed 80 km per hour, but the driver did not say why the train ran at twice that speed. Whether it was a technical failure or human error will be something that will be determined in the investigation of the causes of the accident. But, according to the statement made by the driver, the train which when at a speed in excess of 200 kilometers per hour, was not not slow enough and more than double the speed limit on a very tight curve. It was in that exact place and time that the train ended up derailing and causing dozens of deaths.

Thoughts to the victims and their families RIP.

wonski

Just watched CCTV footage and it looked shocking.
Speed was definitely a factor, but can't believe driver just ignored the limit. Could be mixture of human driver and system failure.

Thoughts with all affected by this tragedy.

Grandeeod

Shocking stuff alright. This has appeared on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH_IjAxDwLo

AlekSmart

Grandeeod wrote: »

Shocking stuff alright. This has appeared on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH_IjAxDwLo

Just lookin at that Video,it seems something was going wrong around the first or second carriage as the train entered the curve.

Difficult to pin down timewise,but around 0.004 seconds definite signs of that carriage rising just before impact ?

Speed has to be the main factor,with perhaps resultant strain on couplings then adding to it.

We place so much confidence in our modes of high-speed travel these days,but occurences such as this underline just how fast that confidence can turn to terror.

A true disaster and an awful day for Spain and for RENFE/Emergency staff dealing with the aftermath.

Mycroft H

Is there a TPWS system in Spain?

SpaceTime

I'm surprised some kind of automated signal / speed control system didn't kick in but I think that's non-highspeed line.

Amigaman

from the video and google maps i worked it out at 195 kmph , on that bend they never stood a chance of making it ...what a tragic senseless accident...thoughts and prayers for the dead and bereaved.

Jamie2k9

There is a system like TPWS system in Spain but just finishes near the site of the crash. Then an older system kicks in but it should still tell driver if he is over the limit but I don't think it can stop/slow the train down.

Cookie_Monster

AlekSmart wrote: »

Just lookin at that Video,it seems something was going wrong around the first or second carriage as the train entered the curve.

Difficult to pin down timewise,but around 0.004 seconds definite signs of that carriage rising just before impact ?

that looks to me like with the excessive speed it finally just lifted off the inside rail and then the carriages came apart

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

wonski

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There is a system like TPWS system in Spain but just finishes near the site of the crash. Then an older system kicks in but it should still tell driver if he is over the limit but I don't think it can stop/slow the train down.

According to my source, which isn't in English, the system they use is called ASFA, and it will slow the train down only if it goes over 200km/h.
It does send message to the cabin, why it was ignored - time will tell.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

wonski

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It won't work unless train exceeds 200km/h.
Train driver was arrested in hospital and questioned.
His Facebook account was closed - there was a picture of him going 200km/h.

Jamie2k9

i

wonski wrote: »

According to my source, which isn't in English, the system they use is called ASFA, and it will slow the train down only if it goes over 200km/h.
It does send message to the cabin, why it was ignored - time will tell.

High Speed routes in Spain use ERTMAS signalling which can take full control of the train if its above the normal speed and the driver will have to reset the system once it comes to a stop before they can operate it. ASFA was replaced by ERTMAS level 1 or 2 some years ago.

The area of the accident is not controlled by ETMAS but by a much older system which can only tell the driver he is above speed but unable to stop the train, this older system kicks in very close to the bend.

What stands out is when it leaves ETMAS controlled zone its operating at 200lm'h but then needs to drop to 80km at a bend. I'm sure they will be looking at if the 80km bend speed signs gave enough time for the train to slow down from 200 and having two different signalling systems and such high differences in speed will be a key part in the investigation. If it was all ETMAS the control centre would of had the control to slow the train well before the bend if the driver had not started to in time.

The service was running behind schedule which may of played a factor.

murphaph

So it seems the driver was a fan of going fast and taking pics of it? Or is it too early to say that?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

A Dub in Glasgo

ETCS (the signalling bit of ERTMS) enforces speed control and movement authority. The High Speed route merges into the older route and the signalling system changes to the older ASFA which only indicates speed control approaching signals at red. The signal was green therefore ASFA did not kick in and there is nothing to enforce speed control around the curve.

This, in my view, was very risky as the line speed goes from 200kph to 80kph in a short space of time and ETCS should have been designed to slow the train down to an appropriate speed before it left the ETCS control area and into the older signalling area or approach control from red applied to the signal closest to the curve.

ardmacha

The area of the accident is not controlled by ETMAS but by a much older system which can only tell the driver he is above speed but unable to stop the train, this older system kicks in very close to the bend.

Presumably some sort of automatic system is needed which only allows high speeds while under the control of the ETMAS, with a lower restriction otherwise, perhaps not 80kmh but say 120kmh for regular track. So when you leave the high speed section, you have to slow down to some extent at least.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

This, in my view, was very risky as the line speed goes from 200kph to 80kph in a short space of time and ETCS should have been designed to slow the train down to an appropriate speed before it left the ETCS control area and into the older signalling area or approach control from red applied to the signal closest to the curve.

This would do the trick.

So it seems the driver was a fan of going fast and taking pics of it? Or is it too early to say that?

If the driver was driving on 200kmh rated sections of track then he was only doing his job by doing that speed, people put all sorts of things on Facebook. So it is too early to say.

Jamie2k9

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

ETCS (the signaling bit of ERTMS) enforces speed control and movement authority. The High Speed route merges into the older route and the signalling system changes to the older ASFA which only indicates speed control approaching signals at red. The signal was green therefore ASFA did not kick in and there is nothing to enforce speed control around the curve.

This, in my view, was very risky as the line speed goes from 200kph to 80kph in a short space of time and ETCS should have been designed to slow the train down to an appropriate speed before it left the ETCS control area and into the older signalling area or approach control from red applied to the signal closest to the curve.

The bend where the accident happened only opened around 2 years ago, its amazing that it was build with a 80kmh limit and the fact it didn't have ETCS is unbelievable, if it was 10 or 20 years old then it may be acceptable to have ASFA signiling but its not.

So it seems the driver was a fan of going fast and taking pics of it? Or is it too early to say that?

Way to early to say,

a - the train was delayed, company could put pressure on drivers to make up the time, unlike Irish Rail from my experience on Spanish railways including high speed they don't have extra time to make up delays in timetable.

b - I read that the driver only operated that route around 60 times in the 30 or so years he was in the company. Not very often and until we know when he last operated it before the accident.

c - Until we know if the signalling system warned of a 80kmph zone ahead then nobody can be blamed. As for the picture on FB, if I was a driver I would put one up. You can't be expected to remember a specific speed zone when you travel all over Spain. I have seen it here in Ireland when a driver doesn't take notice for whatever reason of the TSR warning ahead and only realises when he sees the sign at the TSR section.

SpaceTime

I wonder if there's overlap ?

I mean, if the two systems change ... would the fancier new system just come to an abrupt end and the older system start all of a sudden?

So, you might get no alert of an upcoming speed restriction or maybe a very short notice of it

Perhaps the systems didn't switch over and the 200km/h signal remained active on the train and it just didn't detect the older system when it crossed the line?

I'd like to see how the changeover works and if it's possible that the train may have failed to pick up the new signals.

It just seems a little suspicious that it happened so close to the change of systems.

A Dub in Glasgo

My understanding is that there was nothing to detect as the older system was only available if the signal is at red which it wasn't.

It should be noted that ETCS does not drive the train, it gives movement authority and enforces speed limits. The driver drives the train, unfortunately there was nothing to enforce the speed limit around the curve

A Dub in Glasgo

A bit of an update, it is reported that the train type does not have approval for using ETCS on the line therefore the whole service looks as if it was being 'protected' by the older system!

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/europe/etcs-not-operable-on-santiago-crash-train.html

The accident occurred in the transition section between ETCS Level 1, which is used on the 87km Ourense – Santiago high-speed line over which the train had travelled, and the standard Spanish Asfa system used on the conventional network. Santiago is one of dozens of ETCS-Asfa transition points on the Spanish network.

IRJ has learned from a senior source at Renfe that while ETCS is operable on the Ourense – Santiago high-speed line, class 730 sets of the type involved in the derailment operate exclusively on Asfa on this route despite the fact that they are equipped with ETCS. All other passenger trains operating on this line, including the fleet of class 121 Avant emus, operate on ETCS. The reasons for this have not yet been firmly established.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Jamie2k9

Sky news reporting that a speed warning system on the train may of being disconnected and the signalling is also being questioned for this section of line with such a speed restriction.

The operator is being very quick to wash their hands of the accident and point it all to the driver but if the speed warning system was disconnected it won't sit well for the operator.

It's also being reported that the driver said he tried to break but it was to late and if that speed system wasn't in operation then not a lot of blame can be left with the driver.

SpaceTime

I think some of the media outlets need to cool off about jumping to conclusions about the driver.

To me, it seems rather unlikely that a driver would be that much above a limit deliberately.

I would rather wait and see how the investigation progresses.

Michael D Not Higgins

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Sky news reporting that a speed warning system on the train may of being disconnected and the signalling is also being questioned for this section of line with such a speed restriction.

The operator is being very quick to wash their hands of the accident and point it all to the driver but if the speed warning system was disconnected it won't sit well for the operator.

It's also being reported that the driver said he tried to break but it was to late and if that speed system wasn't in operation then not a lot of blame can be left with the driver.

I'd say it would be more 50/50 blame, between driver and operator, if not more heavily weighted to the driver.

He still had control of the train, he still went too fast.

A Dub in Glasgo

The driver did not slow down when he should have (assuming no brake problems) however the operator and infrastructure owner have loads of questions to answer and hopefully the inquiry will ask those questions and not just concentrate on the driver. In my view, those services should not have been running with no fit for purpose control system in place to prevent or mitigate accidents due to driver error

Michael D Not Higgins

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The driver did not slow down when he should have (assuming no brake problems) however the operator and infrastructure owner have loads of questions to answer and hopefully the inquiry will ask those questions and not just concentrate on the driver. In my view, those services should not have been running with no fit for purpose control system in place to prevent or mitigate accidents due to driver error

Should we contact Irish Rail and let them know they should stop all Intercity services?

SpaceTime

The CAWS signalling system used here seems to have a similar feature set to the most basic incarnation of older Spanish system i.e. it doesn't have any ability to prevent a train going beyond the speed limit.

All CAWS does is tell you the signal ahead, not the speed limits, they're still just road-sign style. There's a fancier version on the DART line which includes speed information, but uses the same track circuit pulsing system to relay it to the trains.

In fact, ASFA used in Spain (the older system) comes in a few flavours, some of which are capable of operating the AVE. So it's far from a basic system. In most respects, it's a lot better than what's on use in Ireland and most of Britain by the looks of it.

Our CAWS system is probably equivalent to ASFA Classico which is suitable for up to 160km/h max.

In Spain, ETCS is mainly used on lines where there will be international traffic. The local AFSA system is still used on tracks where there won't be international traffic. Bear in mind that many of Spain's railway lines are similar gauge to ours and international trains cannot operate over them.

The trains to the North of Spain for example mostly use gauge-shifting CAF or Talgo EMUs which switch gauge when they leave the international-standard parts of the network. They continue onto their destinations at up to 200 or even 220km/h though on Iberian gauge. Local trains that don't go near AVE lines are often broad-gauge only. There are even TGV derived EuroMed trains running from Barcelona to Alicante on broad gauge with higher tech AFSA signalling.

So, the fact that it's running on AFSA signals means nothing really, as it could be either very basic or very high tech. They cover a broad range of standards.

A Dub in Glasgo

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Should we contact Irish Rail and let them know they should stop all Intercity services?

You can if you want, do they have speed reductions around curves that go from 200kph to 80kph without adequate protection?

A Dub in Glasgo

SpaceTime wrote: »

In fact, ASFA used in Spain (the older system) comes in a few flavours, some of which are capable of operating the AVE. So it's far from a basic system. In most respects, it's a lot better than what's on use in Ireland and most of Britain by the looks of it.

.

This accident would have been prevented in Britain as speed restrictions such as this one are protected by TPWS and will apply the brakes if the train is travelling too fast on approach to the speed restriction.

Every signal protecting a conflict is protected by TPWS at the signal and overspeed sensors on approach to those that the conflict point is close.

Of course, TPWS was deployed rapidly in response to previous accidents in Britain whilst the British railways decide what they want to do with respect to ETCS

Michael D Not Higgins

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You can if you want, do they have speed reductions around curves that go from 200kph to 80kph without adequate protection?

No. I sadly don't have one of their route timetables that have speed limits on them but they might have one going from 160km/hr to 40km/hr. Does anyone know the maximum drop in speed on their network?

SpaceTime

Controlling a curve can be done with any decent signalling system though. Trains have been negotiating curves on lines that have high speeds for as long as we have had trains really.

They slow down at the curve because of proper signage, signals at the correct settings etc etc.

If the train was operating at 200km/h that really isn't amazingly fast and is certainly not in the AVE / TGV / ICE kind of league at all. It's just regular intercity service.

"Talgo" (using an articulation and passive tilt system) services have been running at relatively high speeds in Spain since the 1940s and they did so carrying probably billions of passengers completely safely.

flyingsnail

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

No. I sadly don't have one of their route timetables that have speed limits on them but they might have one going from 160km/hr to 40km/hr. Does anyone know the maximum drop in speed on their network?

AFIK they don’t they are all stepped when the drop is more than one third (I think it is one third or it might have been a change of more than 30), ie if you want to drop from 90 to 30 you actual drop from a 90 to 60 to 30

SpaceTime

There's still a possibility that the signalling system didn't work for some reason.

Michael D Not Higgins

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

This accident would have been prevented in Britain as speed restrictions such as this one are protected by TPWS and will apply the brakes if the train is travelling too fast on approach to the speed restriction.

Every signal protecting a conflict is protected by TPWS at the signal and overspeed sensors on approach to those that the conflict point is close.

Of course, TPWS was deployed rapidly in response to previous accidents in Britain whilst the British railways decide what they want to do with respect to ETCS

It's worth noting that TPWS is active for signals at danger and wouldn't prevent this incident.

SpaceTime

Surely the simplest form of signalling should also exist before curves i.e. big warning signs much like roadways.

A Dub in Glasgo

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

It's worth noting that TPWS is active for signals at danger and wouldn't prevent this incident.

It would, TPWS is also deployed for speed restrictions as outlined below

"Except for temporary speed restrictions which are in place for three months or less, TPWS shall be provided to protect against the risk of overspeed derailment on entry to those speed restrictions where the permitted speed on the approach is 60 mph or more and the speed restriction reduces the speed by at least one-third."

Michael D Not Higgins

flyingsnail wrote: »

AFIK they don’t they are all stepped when the drop is more than one third (I think it is one third or it might have been a change of more than 30), ie if you want to drop from 90 to 30 you actual drop from a 90 to 60 to 30

The other thing I'm not sure about is how the speed limits are laid out at this point in Spain, i.e. does it drop gradually like this system in Ireland.

SpaceTime

That line was also rebuilt in 2011, so I would be very surprised if it had the oldest version of the Spanish signalling system.

Michael D Not Higgins

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

It would, TPWS is also deployed for speed restrictions as outlined below

"Except for temporary speed restrictions which are in place for three months or less, TPWS shall be provided to protect against the risk of overspeed derailment on entry to those speed restrictions where the permitted speed on the approach is 60 mph or more and the speed restriction reduces the speed by at least one-third."

Okay I was wrong but as above, the signage of the speed limits is the issue then. Is it stepped down or direct to 80?

SpaceTime

Here's the Spanish AIDF rule book :

www.adif.es/es_ES/conoceradif/doc/TITULO_II.pdf

It's in Spanish, but you can probably grasp a lot of it if you've any knowledge of French or even basic Spanish just guess.

Lots of diagrams though and it's quite easy to follow.