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Delusions of ability - sub 2:50 Frankfurt or bust
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23-07-2013 1:52pm#1Well, four weeks down on the 70 mile P&D plan without anything blowing up, so I thought I'd stick my head above the parapet.
Background: I've been running on and off for years, but only seriously and consistently for the last two. Before that I ran a bit in college (lots of knee problems), ran on my own, ran with a club for a year-ish until we had kids and time went out the window
Then ran on my own again, getting serious for last years DCM.
Recent form:
Distance|Event|Time
26.2M|DCM 2012|2:58:15 (paced stupidly)
10km|MoRun Nov 2012|37:35
|Broken toe - out for 2 months|
4M|Dunboyne Mar 2013|24:14
|Hip/back injury - out for 3 months|
5M|Irish Runner Jun 2013|31:24
10km|Fingal 10km|38:15
"paced stupidly" was a classic too-fast-and-blow-up-at-mile-20, and the broken toe and bad hip were just bad luck.
So, I'm hoping to hit sub-2:50 for DCM with the 70 mile P&D plan this year. Last year I followed a pretty generic plan from an old copy of "The Competetive Runner's Handbook". In comparison to P&D it was not great.
The recent 5M and 10km times don't point to sub-2:50 (just under 3:00:00 according to McMillan), but I'm only back running properly a couple of months, so fingers crossed things keep improving 8
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5 mile tempo with 2 mile warm up and down. Legs still feeling a bit heavy after the race on Sunday, and the humidity makes me wish it would just bloody rain.
Tempo miles (AvgHR 159)
Mile|Pace
1|6:25
2|6:31
3|6:20
4|6:24
5|6:30
So that's just under MP for 5 miles, oh boy 0 -
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Post-thunderstorm run in the park tonight - normal humidity again, hurray! I freaking love Phoenix park on a cool summer evening.
14 miles, avg pace 7:23, avg hr 142
This was supposed to be yesterday's run, but lack of sleep was catching up on me so I skipped the run and hit the sack before 21:00. Felt like a new man this morning. It's going to mean slightly less recovery before Sunday's big MP session, but definitely worth it.
Oh, and some extra stretching because my right glute tightened up something terrible in the last mile. Thanks to advise here I have an appointment with Pearse St physio on Monday though.
Hope everyone else is enjoying the change in weather as much as me 0 -
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Sunday was supposed to be 18 miles, with 10@ MP (6:29). It fell waaaay short.
Saturday
5 miles recovery plus circuit training and stretching.
Sunday
Miles 1 -8: tipping along at 7:30/7:40 pm, and HR around 135.
Mile 9: OK, time to get moving, I put the foot down and .... nothing. Or more like I felt like I was working, but clocked in the first mile at 6:59. Definitely something wrong.
Mile 10: So I kicked again and managed to get it this mile down to 6:34, but it was feeling hard.
Miles 11 - 16: Went by at about 6:47 avg. Strangely I couldn't get my HR up much past 152, when it should have been close to 160. Any time I tried to push harder I just felt weak and tired.
Mile 17: The legs dropped off me, 7:17.
Mile 18: Completely knackered at this point and shuffled the last couple of miles home.
I think (I hope) that I had a low-level bug from the plague carrierskids, and that's why I couldn't get the HR up without feeling like crap.
This is a recovery week for P&D, so I'll take another crack at this in two weeks. Can't go much worse
Side-note: I went to see Aidan Woods today to get my back/hip/glutes checked over after recent injuries and he diagnosed me in about 2 seconds flat with an inflamed disc. Totally treatable, and no need to stop running, so that's some good news!0 -
An update of two halves
First, the boring stuff - the recovery week:
Monday 29th July - Sunday 4th Aug
Day|Session|Pace
Tues 30th|9M aerobic with 8x100m strides in the middle with backpack to work.| 7:40 outside of strides
Wed 31st|12.3M ML to work with backpack|7:35
Thurs 1st|5.3M recovery to work with backpack|7:41
Fri 2nd|9M aerobic home from work with backpack|7:13
Sat 3rd|5m recovery in park|7:27
Sun 4th| Supposed to be 15M, but niggle in right hip kept me sidelined|
I had my second session in Pearse St physio on the Friday to work on some long standing back/hip issues. Good session, and didn't shame myself when tested for flexibility and core strength, but I think it took more out of my hip abductors then I realised. The aerobic run home that evening was a struggle to slow things down, the legs just wanted speed after the week off but I paid for it on Saturday with a nasty twinge in the right hip. Felt like the gajillion side-leg raises I did on Friday were the cause. Hence taking the Sunday off.
And now, the good stuff!
I decided I'd have another go at the 10 mile MP session that blew up on me a week ago. So I headed down to the park today with fresh legs (why can't every week be a recovery week, they're great), did 2 miles warm up and:
Mile|Pace|HR
1|6:09|162
2|6:12|161
3|6:32|162
4|6:46|165
5|6:42|165
6|6:33|160
7|6:25|159
8|6:33|163
9|6:45|167
10|6:30|169
(plus a couple of miles warm down)
That averages out at just over goal MP (6:31 vs 6:29) which is a damn sight better than last week (6:51, feeling awful, and bailing after 9M), so . Uneven pacing was a combination of overcompensating for last week at the start, a head/tail wind, and a long drag up/down on the 5M loop I was doing. The one negative was HR. It was over MP threshold for most of the run, and even above tempo for the last couple of miles. So work to be done.
Much happier than this time last week, and reading the reports for all the fast HM times today has lit a fire under my arse :P0 -
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Weekly update. tl;dr: solid week, no more hip problems.
Tuesday|11M ML|7:15pm, 143 AvgHR - ran this a little faster than was probably wise, but legs were still feeling great after the recovery week. Core+stretching.
Wednesday|5.8M recovery|7:25pm. Core+stretching.
Thursday|5M tempo (+2M wup and 2M wdown)|6:25pm, 159 AvgHR - happy with this. That's about 3s pm faster than my last 5M tempo (which should have the second last mile as 6:35, not 6:24), at the same HR.
Friday|6.2M recovery with 8x100m strides|7:57pm - some core and stretching with the physio too.
Saturday|21M (and not a sausage more) looong run|7:35pm - only needed the one emergency gel around mile 15 when I started to bonk. Probably should have crammed some more food in my face before heading out.
Sunday| Sweet sweet rest day| (well, just some stretching and core work to keep the physio happy)
Really liking this P&D plan. A decent amount of variation, and just the right side of tough, but I'm kind of conflicted on how to run the 10M and 1/2 Marathon series races. On the one hand I want to see how fast I can go, on the other I really really don't want to screw with the plan. Not terrible as problems go I guess.0 -
Monday: 5.5M + 7.3M recovery runs to/from work, with light backpack. First ever double day for me, I think I like them.
Tuesday: 13.7M ML, avg pace and HR: 7:51, 140. Bloody brutal. Due to planning to failfailure to plan I did this at 8:30pm, after a Pilates, with an empty stomach, and a laptop in the backpack. Running on fumes for the last 4M, completely bonked. But hey, at least I got the miles
Wednesday: 5.8M recovery. Handy run in to work, plus core and stretching to keep the physio happy.
Thursday: 11M with 2M wup, 6M LT, 3M wdown. Avg LT pace and HR: 6:20, 162. Came this close ->.<- to skipping because of the weather and general tiredness. Sat watching the rain and eating jellies for 20 minutes trying to decide if it was heavy enough to skip the session, or light enough to head out. Obviously the rain gods could tell, because it kept alternating between monsoon and a light shower. In the end I was saved by the runners best friend: guilt, and hauled myself out the door. 2M wup with some strides, then a loop in PPark: Castleknock gate, Chesterfield av, OSI rd, Furze rd, Chesterfield av, turn around at the zoo roundabout and retrace first half. Combination of rain and trees caused GPS to drop out several times, so the above pace is a bit of a guesstimate based on my watch and gmap-pedometer, but it matches up with the bit of GPS data I did manage to get, and how I felt. That's another few seconds faster than my last LT at 5M, so calling it a win and not going to look too hard for contradictory evidence Surprised myself by retching a bit at the end since I felt pretty good, then I remembered how many jellies I can eat in 20 minutes...
Friday: 6.2M recovery at lunchtime. Nice trot out and back to Ringsend nature reserve.
So things are going in the right direction, but not clear if they're going there fast enough. Roll on Frank Duffy 10M!
Edit: re-ran that loop today, and distance matches up with above, so case closed.0 -
Saturday: 20M LR around the PPark: My venerable Polar s625x finally gave up the ghost. I'm blaming lack of HR feedback for the too-fast average pace of 7:19.
Could have really done with some carbs around mile 15 (same as last week), but decided it was a good chance to practice running on empty and nudge the body to do more with less. Bottles of lucozade and bananas danced in my head as I made plans for the emergency few euro I always bring.
Apart from the bonk, the legs and breathing felt fine, so the pace wasn't a complete disaster.
From reading the other logs I must have nodded to at least half a dozen boardsies today, but I have no idea what any of yiz look like. :P
This is my highest mileage week ever (almost 70M), so can't wait to do feck all tomorrow 0 -
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Who's got two thumbs and a functioning right ankle? This guy!
Thursday: 5.4M @ 7:19, and 5.6M @ 7:19 - a nervous run in to work, and carefree run home. Ankle was a little stiff in the morning, but not terrible, and felt a little weak on the downhill, but again not bad.
Friday 8.1M @ 7:27 - handy run home from work, no more twinges in the ankle, and all set for Frank Duffy tomorrow. See you all there! (whatever you look like) 0 -
ciancullinan wrote: »ruh roh
Turned my ankle at the start of last nights 15M MLR. "At the start?" you say? Yes, well, good point. I did stop for a few minutes to walk it off, and it mostly went away, so I plowed on. Not the smartest thing in the world, but you know how it is when the blood is up.
Anyway, 15M, 7:14pm average. Ankle was a bit achy, but never bad enough to stop, and it was one of those lovely cool evenings in the park with no wind, not many people, and you feel like you're floating along as the sun goes down (but yes, still dumb).
I iced/elevated/ibuprofened when I got home, and repeated this morning as it's feeling sore and creaky. On balance I'm pretty optimistic though. Since I was able to keep running on it, I'm hoping a few days off will sort it out, and the Frank Duffy 10M can still happen this Saturday.
Je ne regrette rien.
20 miles at that pace, 10 weeks out is some confidence booster!!
Enjoy the race tomorrow
Edit: I quoted the wrong post!! Slow the f&ck down for your lsr's 0 -
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20 miles at that pace, 10 weeks out is some confidence booster!!
Enjoy the race tomorrow
Edit: I quoted the wrong post!! Slow the f&ck down for your lsr's
You're not wrong, I did get carried away. In my defense P&D give a fairly wide heart rate margin for running MLR/LR, and while I was probably near the top, I don't think I was much over it for most of the run (but yeah, without a HRM it's hard to know).
Two weeks to a shiny new birthday present that should solve this. MrsC has been instructed 0 -
ciancullinan wrote: »You're not wrong, I did get carried away. In my defense P&D give a fairly wide heart rate margin for running MLR/LR, and while I was probably near the top, I don't think I was much over it for most of the run (but yeah, without a HRM it's hard to know).
Two weeks to a shiny new birthday present that should solve this. MrsC has been instructed
I believe amazon.co.uk in conjunction with parcel motel is the way to go....0 -
ciancullinan wrote:and all set for Frank Duffy tomorrow. See you all there! (whatever you look like)
Tall, devilishly handsome and should have a gang of groupies around me. Can't miss me
What's your goal time?0 -
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Drum roll.... Frank Duffy 10 Mile
Better get this thing written up before the memory fails completely.
Pre-race
We live about 1M from the park, so MrsC and the kids walked over, and I headed off for a bit of warmup, including some wobbly attempts at dynamic stretching. The rough plan was for 63m (so 6:12pm). Faster on the downhills, holding it on the North rd, and using up any banked time on Military rd, and Upper Glen rd hills.
Mini-disaster at the start line when the phone decided it was not going to get a GPS signal, and then powered off completely. Can't wait to ditch this thing for a proper Garmin.
Miles 1-2
Didn't start as far to the front of group 1 as I would have liked, so spent the first mile dodging people, and missed the marker altogether. Mile 2 was still pretty cramped, but getting better, and clocked in at 12:13. Good good, time in the bank, and not feeling terrible.
Miles 3-4
As usual, there was head wind on this uphill drag, but I spotted a group of Crusader lads who looked like they knew how to pace, and tucked in behind them (that's me in red hiding in their midst: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX_N7Qdd_8k&feature=youtu.be&t=3m51s, muwhaha). I stuck with them up until mile 3 which clocked in at 6:05 :eek:, so much for loosing time on the North rd. Clearly this bunch were going a little fast for me (and I could feel it). The worst of the wind was gone, so I eased off a bit, and let them pull away gradually. Still, they'd be handy visual pace markers for the next few miles. By the end of mile 4 (6:17) everyone was spread out nicely. No more tripping on peoples heels or dodging spit.
Miles 5-7
I was still feeling the effects of mile 3, so decided to use this downhill drag to get back some comfort before the hills on the back stretch. I gained a few places without having to do any extra work, and was feeling good by the end of these. Best bit of the race. Fast, gentle downhill, and no head wind 6:10, 6:03, 6:11
Mile 8
The beginning of the end. The big scary hill of Military road was actually fine. I've run it enough that I think I have a good feel on how to pace it, and there were a couple of strong looking lads just ahead of me to work with. Lost a couple of places at the start to obvious sandbaggers, then gained one or two on the s-bends (squeezed past a lad from Clonliffe with long hair and headphones). 6:27
Mile 9
Surprisingly, not the hell-on-earth I'd wound myself up to expect. The first half was still downhill from the s-bends, so no worries there, but for whatever reason the uphill on Upper Glen rd was tough, but basically fine. I swapped places a few times with an older chap who muttered 'good stuff' every time I passed him. I liked him 6:24
Mile 10
This, not 9, was the hardest mile. There's actually more uphill here than the eye thinks, but the legs feel it at the end of a race. Plus I've grown to hate the home straight on Furze rd. It just seems to go on and on and on. On the up side, I wasn't the shambles I'd expected after mile 9, and if I'm honest I didn't push myself to the limit on the last few hundred meters. This meant I didn't do my usual sprint-finish-wretch routine. 6:17.
A final time of 62:07, and not quite running on an empty tank. That's 2:40 faster than my PB from the same race 5 years ago I actually wore the t-shirt from that race today, it's my favorite. Dead happy: a PB, almost a minute faster than my guesstimate, wasn't the pacing disaster I was worried about, and is a 56 vdot, which is 2 better than my score for Fingal 10km. Onwards and upwards!
Post-race
A sneaky 5M this evening after the kids went to bed. I missed some mileage this week due to my ankle and P&D has given me a new way to express my OCD.
Can't wait for the half!
(I'll just add my +1 to the comments already made about the good organisation, happy vibe, and entertaining commentators. Great race).0 -
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Well I stole the formatting from youRunningKing wrote: »That's a super time, great running, nice report.
Heh, as Gavlor pointed out I could probably use some slowing down on the MLR/LRs, but joining a group for some of the longer stuff could be fun alright.RunningKing wrote: »You must try to meet up with the Boardsies on the long runs, some of the faster lads will bring you on no end.0 -
Sunday: 14.5M @ 7:25. People around these parts said something about long runs on tired legs being good practice. I'd usually take the day off after a race, but I'm a sucker for peer pressure. Hip was a little creaky at the start, and the legs were heavy, but overall it was surprisingly grand.
Next week is a P&D recovery week:D 0 -
Monday - 8M @ 7:42 - recovery run home from work with backpack. Core and stretching because who needs free time?
Tuesday - 4.9M @ 7:50, 6.8M with 6x800m - this was supposed to be 9M with 6x800, but couldn't find a block of time long enough today so made a double. This is the first honest-to-goodness speed session I've done in about 6 months and now I remember why I moved to high mileage. Horrible stuff Due to time constraints I had to do the 800s on the route home from work through the park using the GPS on the phone to mark off distance, and my watch to time things. So not super accurate, and mostly uphill which slowed things down. Aim was for 5km pace which is roughly 172s, ended up with:
Time|Recovery|Elevation gain
170|100|19m
179|80(miscounted)|8m
182|120(payback)|4
173|100|1
189|100|13
174|100|-4
Not a disaster, but I really need to do these on the flat next time. Also had a Pilates class at lunch time.
In other news MrsC turned her ankle badly in a non-running related capacity. Much worse than my little stumble last week Be careful out there people, gravity is a bastard. 0 -
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RunForestRun wrote: »Cian, my theory on doing the half miles or mile repeats would be that marathons are not run on tracks, they're on roads with up and downhills so doing them on the track might be too easy? Just my theory. Anyway, excellent session. Decent pace there after the race at the weekend.
Aye, it's a fair point. Also, I think a part of me is fishing for excuses for how tough this session felt. And another part of me is unhappy that the numbers on my watch don't exactly equal the number I had planned. Stupid reality
Still, it's all work in the bank etc.0 -
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Krusty_Clown wrote: »Half mile and mile repeats aren't for simulation though, they're for stressing the system, and where better to do than in a controlled environment like a track, where you can be sure that you can maintain consistent effort over a prolonged period of time (no hills, and equal head/tail wind on each lap). IMHO, the track is no place for marathon pace, but perfect for hard work, like tempo and intervals, where the track's forgiving surface will also reduce the risk of injury.
I once did 10 miles @ MP on the track; 40 laps.
In my defence it was so windy, cold (icy) and dark it was the only reasonably well lit safe place to do it...0 -
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It's not my argument, it's Jack Daniels. I always did my intervals/repeats/tempo workouts 'in the real world', but time and again in this country of ours, I faced either hills (up and down), headwind or tailwind, which meant I had hard stretches and easy stretches, which reduced the effectiveness of sustained effort (e.g. during tempo/threshold runs), or meant that I had alternative hard/easy intervals, which kind of defeated the purpose. Tracks are generally easier than running on the road (which is why WRs are road/track specific) but that's why you do simulation on a road and track workouts on a track. My cinder track on the other hand is a lot tougher than running on a road, so I get the best of both words.RunForestRun wrote: »A perfectly valid argument.. 0 -
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Possibly, those last few miles are a bit of a blur!geekington wrote: »Cian - you must have just past me in the last mile by the sounds of your report - I was in a Sportsworld singlet! I was suffering massively from about the 8mile point and was hurting over the last few miles.
I'm definitely going to join in with a group for an LR in a couple of weeks. (this week is recovery, and next week is on-call for work so have do all my running in the evenings). I'll stick something in the group training session thread if there's not already something appropriate there. See you then maybegeekington wrote: »I'm running similar times and doing the same plan so will follow this with interest! I'm usually down in the PP with a group doing LR's about your pace if you want to jump in.
I'm also thinking of jumping in with some of the illustrious names on here on some of there runs but I'm worried my star shuck self wouldn't be able to keep up!! 0 -
Really felt the time needed to recover from the race on Sunday, thank goodness this was step-back week. One things for sure, I won't be racing the Dublin HM, it would completely bollox up the following weeks training.
Wednesday
5.8M@7:35 RR from home to work. Bit of a niggle in the left groin, might have overdone it on the stretching last night.
Thursday
9.5M@7:30 RR from work to home. Niggle is still there during the day, but not a bother while running.
Friday
8.9M@8:00 with 10x100 strides from home to work.
Saturday
15.1M@7:24 MLR. First day since the race that the legs felt good.
Sunday
Some core work, and a lovely lovely snooze. I might start scheduling naps in to my program, just need to get the kids to sign up to the plan
Highest ever mileage month - 281M, and 8 weeks to go to DCM. Just need to hold the body together a bit longer 0 -
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P&D called for a 12M PMP (where PMP = 6:29pm) a week ago, but it clashed with the Frank Duffy. I swore I'd get it done afterwards, and no one is more surprised than me that I didn't wimp out. I think I get more nervous about these milestone sessions than I do about races.
Headed out the door at 20:15 after getting the kids to bed. Lovely evening for a run. Warm but not too warm, slight breeze, bit of indirect sunshine. An easy couple of miles warm up with some strides ending at the Castleknock gate in Phoenix park, and off we go.
The plan was to try for steady splits, so holding back a bit on the downhills, and working on the up. Starting off down Chesterfield av and on to OSI rd is obviously down, so I tried to concentrate on a sensible pace and was happy to clock the first mile at 6:27. Feeling a bit creaky, but that just seems to be the norm for me for the first few miles of any run.
On to Furze rd, back on the Chesterfield, and a turn around just past the zoo: 6:17 and 6:24 (steady Neddy). Speed helped by the first wildlife encounter of the night: one of the tigers let out a roar as I went by . The light was mostly gone at this point, which was a problem since I'm reduced to using some string and chewing gum
my phone and a watch with no backlight to pace things right now (two days until shiny new birthday watch). Pacing starts to go wobbly since I can't see my times and have to run by feel.
6:38 and 6:41 back up Chesterfield and half way down Furze and some deer dodging, then 6:21 brought me back to the starting point and half way. Feeling good, but conscious that I need to keep the head. Next few miles come in at 6:33 (more wildlife of the skangers doing donuts variety), 6:28, 6:15 (it's impossible not to pick up the pace on that lovely downhill bit before the zoo). 6:45 (I only love that hill in one direction), 6:29, and 6:24 to finish things up. I almost did another mile, but common sense prevailed at the last moment. There's a tempo in a few days, and I'm already off-plan with this session. Felt a little more tired at the end than I would have liked, but surprised by how quickly I recovered in the warmdown. Finished up cruising home at 7:30ish pace.
Glad do have this done and out of the way. I know I'll be doubting my ability to run these splits again in day, but for now I'm happy
Summary:
Mile|Split
1|6:27
2|6:17
3|6:24
4|6:38
5|6:41
6|6:21
7|6:33
8|6:28
9|6:15
10|6:45
11|6:29
12|6:24
Avg|6:28.50 -
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RunningKing wrote: »yep - in Carpenterstown. 2m from Farmleigh gate - hate the run back to the house, so generally bring the car!
Hah, that's my new neck of the woods. I might end up cycling to/from the park if that drag home gets too much. You're welcome to a crossbar 0 -
ciancullinan wrote: »Hah, that's my new neck of the woods. I might end up cycling to/from the park if that drag home gets too much. You're welcome to a crossbar
Get a room0 -
Tuesday 5M@7:38 and 6.6M@7:40 - couple of recovery runs to/from work. Felt a bit heavy, may have been the backpack and heat.
Wednesday 6.8M@7:32 - another slow run home from work with the backpack. I feckin hate running through town, but it's slightly faster and when work is busy it's the only option. Core work, horrible not fun stuff.
Thursday Happy birthday to me, happy birthday to me. MrsC delivered on the shiny new running watch. I now have a third child called Forerunner 610
I got myself a 12M run with 7M@HMP. I'm very hard to shop for.
McMillen predicts 6:19pm from the recent 1:02:07 in Frank Duffy. My goal was to keep it under this, and see if the new watch would help me with my inability to maintain consistent pacing.
Another evening run, so the headlamp came out for the first time in 6 months. On went the new watch and HRM strap. Wasn't confident in my ability to not mess up the watch, better bring the phone too, and headphones so I can hear the distances being read off. I was more machine than man when I stepped out the front door.
Anyway, 2M warmup with some strides, then 7M starting at the Castleknock gate, turning past the Polo grounds on to the North rd, back up to the gate, down to the Phoenix column, back to the gate.
Long story short, the watch did a great job keeping my pace in check on the downhill, and making me work hard on the uphills. The North rd nearly killed me as usual, and I actually found a second wind in the last mile or so:
6:13, 6:17, 6:17, 6:17, 6:15, 6:14, 6:13
(Heart rate was a bit high, but I have a feeling I'll need to remeasure my max and resting, the old SX625 was definitely flakey).
3M slowly home.
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/371162183
Pretty happy with that, especially after the hard PMP on Monday. I love my new watch
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