Selling Land to buy stock, equipment

bob charles

Just putting it out there, as I know a couple of large farmers who have over the past few years disposed of land to invest in buildings/plant and also stock. Considering the poor return out of land and also it being pretty illiquid asset if it was converted into say milking animals/beef animals, facilities so as to increase productivity/profitability is this a good move. I would certainly consider it if I owned land that was away from the main block. Is it mad for those who make these bold decisions considering that most try and accumulate land through money made for stock. If your farming true agricultural land that would never have anymore than ag value I think it makes serious sense as the quickest way to make money is to have access to large amounts of working capital.

So intelligent members what are your thoughts

locky76

I'm boldly putting myself forward as an intelligent member :-):-)
Anyway, this approach is madness to me, anyone I've seen adopting this approach did not have the underlying farming business to sustain an investment like this and selling the bit of land/site etc. was just a quickfix to get the few quid together

bob charles wrote: »

Just putting it out there, as I know a couple of large farmers who have over the past few years disposed of land to invest in buildings/plant and also stock. Considering the poor return out of land and also it being pretty illiquid asset if it was converted into say milking animals/beef animals, facilities so as to increase productivity/profitability is this a good move. I would certainly consider it if I owned land that was away from the main block. Is it mad for those who make these bold decisions considering that most try and accumulate land through money made for stock. If your farming true agricultural land that would never have anymore than ag value I think it makes serious sense as the quickest way to make money is to have access to large amounts of working capital.

So intelligent members what are your thoughts

yellow50HX

bob charles wrote: »

Just putting it out there, as I know a couple of large farmers who have over the past few years disposed of land to invest in buildings/plant and also stock. Considering the poor return out of land and also it being pretty illiquid asset if it was converted into say milking animals/beef animals, facilities so as to increase productivity/profitability is this a good move. I would certainly consider it if I owned land that was away from the main block. Is it mad for those who make these bold decisions considering that most try and accumulate land through money made for stock. If your farming true agricultural land that would never have anymore than ag value I think it makes serious sense as the quickest way to make money is to have access to large amounts of working capital.

So intelligent members what are your thoughts

That would make sense when land was dear and cattle and plant were cheap. That was probably the way in the Celtic tiger days but not sure it makes sense not espically if your trying to expand the farm. Most farms are working at or around the limit of stocking rates. Wouldn't make sense to less land to buy cattle and then having to rent land.

Bactidiaryl

It's as I would call it. Liquidizing your assets. Retarded.

Muckit

Selling it and then buying it back in a few year time for a fraction of the price. Pure genius them boyos

Kristopherus

bob charles wrote: »

Just putting it out there, as I know a couple of large farmers who have over the past few years disposed of land to invest in buildings/plant and also stock. Considering the poor return out of land and also it being pretty illiquid asset if it was converted into say milking animals/beef animals, facilities so as to increase productivity/profitability is this a good move. I would certainly consider it if I owned land that was away from the main block. Is it mad for those who make these bold decisions considering that most try and accumulate land through money made for stock. If your farming true agricultural land that would never have anymore than ag value I think it makes serious sense as the quickest way to make money is to have access to large amounts of working capital.

So intelligent members what are your thoughts

Don't Do It !!!

bob charles

im not talking about selling a site more like selling say 50 ac and releasing 500k to either buy 100 more milking cows and plant needed or 200 extra beef animals. Unfortunately I will never be in a position to do this as I would have to sell off some of the home farm so I cant do it but for shred dairy, beef guys its one way of scaling up.

Ideally if there was a sale and lease back was offered by some company I would seriously do it. Most prominent at this a few years ago were our main banks and now I think I'm right in saying an influential farming industry figure owns there turf.

Land is never going to make money for most of us on here so I dont see the emotional attachment. Good land today can be leased for 2% of its value so owning isn't much of a business. obviously if you sell the land you would be replacing it via renting it or else getting crops contract grown, animals contract reared. Some of the smartest guys in the cattle business and they dont own diddly squat amount of land

It must be the right thing to down when everyone says dont do it!!

yellow50HX

bob charles wrote: »

im not talking about selling a site more like selling say 50 ac and releasing 500k to either buy 100 more milking cows and plant needed or 200 extra beef animals. Unfortunately I will never be in a position to do this as I would have to sell off some of the home farm so I cant do it but for shred dairy, beef guys its one way of scaling up.

Ideally if there was a sale and lease back was offered by some company I would seriously do it. Most prominent at this a few years ago were our main banks and now I think I'm right in saying an influential farming industry figure owns there turf.

Land is never going to make money for most of us on here so I dont see the emotional attachment. Good land today can be leased for 2% of its value so owning isn't much of a business. obviously if you sell the land you would be replacing it via renting it or else getting crops contract grown, animals contract reared. Some of the smartest guys in the cattle business and they dont own diddly squat amount of land

It must be the right thing to down when everyone says dont do it!!

This from someone who says they have more then enough on their plate as it is. I can understand your logic though but I'm not sure how much actual change you get out of your 500k. After taking out the taxes what would be be left?

Viewtodiefor

bob charles wrote: »

im not talking about selling a site more like selling say 50 ac and releasing 500k to either buy 100 more milking cows and plant needed or 200 extra beef animals. Unfortunately I will never be in a position to do this as I would have to sell off some of the home farm so I cant do it but for shred dairy, beef guys its one way of scaling up.

Ideally if there was a sale and lease back was offered by some company I would seriously do it. Most prominent at this a few years ago were our main banks and now I think I'm right in saying an influential farming industry figure owns there turf.

Land is never going to make money for most of us on here so I dont see the emotional attachment. Good land today can be leased for 2% of its value so owning isn't much of a business. obviously if you sell the land you would be replacing it via renting it or else getting crops contract grown, animals contract reared. Some of the smartest guys in the cattle business and they dont own diddly squat amount of land

It must be the right thing to down when everyone says dont do it!!

Bob do u realise the audience you are asking this question to? Most land in Ireland changes hands only once every 550 years, imagine!
Land is not a good investment if you want a return on your money, full stop!
However in general it will hold its value here because of our emotional attachment to it, this attachment may loosen slightly as the years pass.
I think your argument may have some merit if say you have small amount of cash to expand and can't borrow or don't want to borrow from banks .
Say u are a son just got farm from parents, you own 150 acres home block and 40 acres. Away sum where. U milk 70 to 80 cows, parlour and sheds needs upgrading to increase numbers to say 150 cows. Cost of this expansion 200 to 250k. U ain't go d cash as other family members were looked after plus ur parents. Do u go borrow it? And work for d bank for few years Or like u say release some money? And keep sum for when land comes up nearer maybe.
I'd nearly sell some land!

Juniorhurler

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Bob do u realise the audience you are asking this question to? Most land in Ireland changes hands only once every 550 years, imagine!
Land is not a good investment if you want a return on your money, full stop!
However in general it will hold its value here because of our emotional attachment to it, this attachment may loosen slightly as the years pass.
I think your argument may have some merit if say you have small amount of cash to expand and can't borrow or don't want to borrow from banks .
Say u are a son just got farm from parents, you own 150 acres home block and 40 acres. Away sum where. U milk 70 to 80 cows, parlour and sheds needs upgrading to increase numbers to say 150 cows. Cost of this expansion 200 to 250k. U ain't go d cash as other family members were looked after plus ur parents. Do u go borrow it? And work for d bank for few years Or like u say release some money? And keep sum for when land comes up nearer maybe.
I'd nearly sell some land!

I get your point vtdf. There are a few pitfalls though. The main one is that you could be waiting years and years for a bit that suits you to come up. Second the money could dwindle on many different things should you liquidate. Personally I don't buy the working for the bank line. You are working for your own expansion and interest payments are part of any business. No business person uses his/her own money when they can avoid it.

mf240

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Bob do u realise the audience you are asking this question to? Most land in Ireland changes hands only once every 550 years, imagine!
Land is not a good investment if you want a return on your money, full stop!
However in general it will hold its value here because of our emotional attachment to it, this attachment may loosen slightly as the years pass.
I think your argument may have some merit if say you have small amount of cash to expand and can't borrow or don't want to borrow from banks .
Say u are a son just got farm from parents, you own 150 acres home block and 40 acres. Away sum where. U milk 70 to 80 cows, parlour and sheds needs upgrading to increase numbers to say 150 cows. Cost of this expansion 200 to 250k. U ain't go d cash as other family members were looked after plus ur parents. Do u go borrow it? And work for d bank for few years Or like u say release some money? And keep sum for when land comes up nearer maybe.
I'd nearly sell some land!

Why not milk 70 or 80 cows and sell the land at retirement.
Expand expand expand why? To be gang raped by the banks the creameries and the factories, with the taxman waiting to have a go
when there finished.

Viewtodiefor

mf240 wrote: »

Why not milk 70 or 80 cows and sell the land at retirement.
Expand expand expand why? To be gang raped by the banks the creameries and the factories, with the taxman waiting to have a go
when there finished.

Yep fair point!

delaval

bob charles wrote: »

Just putting it out there, as I know a couple of large farmers who have over the past few years disposed of land to invest in buildings/plant and also stock. Considering the poor return out of land and also it being pretty illiquid asset if it was converted into say milking animals/beef animals, facilities so as to increase productivity/profitability is this a good move. I would certainly consider it if I owned land that was away from the main block. Is it mad for those who make these bold decisions considering that most try and accumulate land through money made for stock. If your farming true agricultural land that would never have anymore than ag value I think it makes serious sense as the quickest way to make money is to have access to large amounts of working capital.

So intelligent members what are your thoughts

To answer your question, it's actually not a bad move as land can be leased for a fraction of its value. By far the greatest return on our capital is on rented land. However that return is being used to buy land.

You may or not be able to answer this but why do they need to sell land to fund this capital investment. Are there management issues, are they a bad risk, did Daddy give them the land?

Would I sell land? NO

Would I sell to invest in a depreciating asset? Hell no

bob charles

delaval wrote: »

To answer your question, it's actually not a bad move as land can be leased for a fraction of its value. By far the greatest return on our capital is on rented land. However that return is being used to buy land.

You may or not be able to answer this but why do they need to sell land to fund this capital investment. Are there management issues, are they a bad risk, did Daddy give them the land?

Would I sell land? NO

Would I sell to invest in a depreciating asset? Hell no

Obviously if you decide to take on a hundred extra cows you will have to spend a few quid on infrastructure. I would be talking about spending 60% of the money on stock and the remaining 40% on extra grub,ferts,rent and as little as possible on infrastructure. Considering to expand by such numbers would involve a loan of half a million from a bank versus that option to sell 50ac, I think I would go with the latter as it will be much less stressful. Yes it depends on how many ac's you own, but im coming from with the farmer currently owning 100ac, so selling half his land.

I wouldnt sell to put the money into capital project either. but take for instance you decided to sell land to invest into say a digester or windmill, chicken house etc, something that may guarantee your viability for the future. Just using such as instances

but I would sell to put money into stock as its my stock that make money, not owning land.

moy83

I dont see much wrong with selling land at all , but Im not sure investing it in cattle or sheds would give you a huge payback though .
What kind of abbatoir or marketing for your own line of meat products would 500k buy you ?
You would nearly need to leave Ireland to get scope to grow a beef business up to a large scale now .

1chippy

Personally i find gathering stock a lot easier than land. If i had to get cash for development, (which i have had to do a few times) i would look at a multiple of options first before selling the ground. If the option was there i would try and say push growth out at a slower pace say over a few years than going for the one big push.
I havent really came across the oportunity but there are always situations whereby i might go against what i have said above. does anyone know of anyone looking for a rural development site in Monaghan. i'll let it go for a clean 10-12 million

Timmaay

For the average farmer (say earning whatever, 40grand a year, just on the high rate of tax), if they did say dispose of 20acres, worth 10grand/acre, roughly what tax would they pay on it? Would the whole 200grand be considered as an income for that year, and therefore they would be hit with all of it on the high rate of incometax, plus the USC etc etc? In that case you'd give the taxman over 1/2 the value of it! Or what way does it work?

nhg

Timmaay wrote: »

For the average farmer (say earning whatever, 40grand a year, just on the high rate of tax), if they did say dispose of 20acres, worth 10grand/acre, roughly what tax would they pay on it? Would the whole 200grand be considered as an income for that year, and therefore they would be hit with all of it on the high rate of incometax, plus the USC etc etc? In that case you'd give the taxman over 1/2 the value of it! Or what way does it work?

As far as I know, sale of land would be subject to Capital Gains Tax which is 33% currently, it would be calculated between the difference in cost/value when buying/receiving the land & selling the land, think legal fees on the sale are the only expenses which can be offset against the tax.

kowtow

bob charles wrote: »

Obviously if you decide to take on a hundred extra cows you will have to spend a few quid on infrastructure. I would be talking about spending 60% of the money on stock and the remaining 40% on extra grub,ferts,rent and as little as possible on infrastructure. Considering to expand by such numbers would involve a loan of half a million from a bank versus that option to sell 50ac, I think I would go with the latter as it will be much less stressful. Yes it depends on how many ac's you own, but im coming from with the farmer currently owning 100ac, so selling half his land.

I wouldnt sell to put the money into capital project either. but take for instance you decided to sell land to invest into say a digester or windmill, chicken house etc, something that may guarantee your viability for the future. Just using such as instances

but I would sell to put money into stock as its my stock that make money, not owning land.

I'd sell it cheerfully for a *demonstrably* better return on any other asset (whether stock, buildings, or whatever) but with one important proviso.

I'd only sell it if the acreage was not a potential key to future expansion - in other words normally a pure out-farm which stood alone and where I was certain not to want to expand in the future.

The real challenge to farming, particularly along the pasture driven lines being put forward by Teagasc, is the inherent lack of scaleability. Free markets (which we are about to come) work best because the most effective operators are able to expand - and capital in the form of money finds its way to them to help them do it.

In terms dairying from grass this means that your inefficient neighbour sees the error of his ways and sells or rents to you at the drop of a hat. You get bigger and richer, he gets rent. Like it or not that is how it's supposed to work. In many respects, land in this country is just as restricting as quota and a good deal less liquid.

Strikes me that the Irish emotional attachment to land, unless it can be shaken off by a big change in values perhaps, is what will make the difference between success and total disillusion for the Industry of tomorrow.

If you might need a parcel of land as a stepping stone to necessary expansion in the future, hang on to it for dear life. If not it's just another resource and should be treated as such.

Farmer Pudsey

Bob in one way you have answered the question yourself. This person is considering selling land to release cash to invest in a business that he considers will not give enough of a return to borrow to invest in. This is a huge issue in farming look at the greenfield dairy projects and the Teagasc suckler project. Neither seem to be justifying there investment.

Farmers biggest problem can be there failure to generate a return on there investment. If this person has not got the confidance to borrow and generate a return on his capital that justify it then he should not consider selling land. You speak about smartest guys in the cattle business are they farmers or cattle dealers. The smartest guy in the business I can think of is the Good Larry and he owns a sh#tload of land he may not be investing in more but neither is he selling it.

However the Generation before me another generation before you had the motto sell nothing except the milk and the eggs.:D:D

Timmaay

bob charles wrote: »

Some of the smartest guys in the cattle business and they dont own diddly squat amount of land

These lads started with nothing, so had to build it all up, and seeing as they are still around in the cattle business now, they are obviously fairly smart businessmen anyways! But of course, if business startup statistics are to be believed, for everyone successful person who started out at the cattle business, many more tried and fell by the wayside also!

Where a son who gets handed a 100/200acre farm that is up and running already from his dad has a much much easier job, doesn't have to pay out for landrent, doesnt really need to be too smart to be able to keep the place up and running and ticking over as before ha!

Farmer Pudsey

nhg wrote: »

As far as I know, sale of land would be subject to Capital Gains Tax which is 33% currently, it would be calculated between the difference in cost/value when buying/receiving the land & selling the land, think legal fees on the sale are the only expenses which can be offset against the tax.

You can take it that in most cases at least 25% of the money will find it way into auctioneers, solicitors and the Governments pockets and maybe 40%.

bob charles

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Bob in one way you have answered the question yourself. This person is considering selling land to release cash to invest in a business that he considers will not give enough of a return to borrow to invest in. This is a huge issue in farming look at the greenfield dairy projects and the Teagasc suckler project. Neither seem to be justifying there investment.

Farmers biggest problem can be there failure to generate a return on there investment. If this person has not got the confidance to borrow and generate a return on his capital that justify it then he should not consider selling land. You speak about smartest guys in the cattle business are they farmers or cattle dealers. The smartest guy in the business I can think of is the Good Larry and he owns a sh#tload of land he may not be investing in more but neither is he selling it.

However the Generation before me another generation before you had the motto sell nothing except the milk and the eggs.:D:D

Do you reckon a bank will stand behind someone looking for a half million to invest in beef finishing, who is probably already well borrowed. Owing a truck load of money to a bank will bring allot of extra stress, than selling a few acres to fund the expansion of a business. To get business off the ground you need cash, you buy land when you have your money made in Ag. Smart guys im talking about in beef business are across the spectrum.

bob charles

kowtow wrote: »

If you might need a parcel of land as a stepping stone to necessary expansion in the future, hang on to it for dear life. If not it's just another resource and should be treated as such.

And I think this is where Im getting my point of view from, in that I dont see owning land as necessary for expansion in the future. For the last two year we have had less than 150 proper grazing days and we are back in trouble as we speak

kowtow wrote: »

Strikes me that the Irish emotional attachment to land, unless it can be shaken off by a big change in values perhaps, is what will make the difference between success and total disillusion for the Industry of tomorrow.

Suppose having dealt with the above issues for the last decade and still no change now or in the future to land availability, we are going to have to come up with other solutions if our businesses are to grow and survive

Farmer Pudsey

bob charles wrote: »

Do you reckon a bank will stand behind someone looking for a half million to invest in beef finishing, who is probably already well borrowed. Owing a truck load of money to a bank will bring allot of extra stress, than selling a few acres to fund the expansion of a business. To get business off the ground you need cash, you buy land when you have your money made in Ag. Smart guys im talking about in beef business are across the spectrum.

First of all Bob to raise a half a million you need to sell more than a few acres. We are gone from the heady days of the Celtic Tiger. At average land prices 8-9K/acre to raise 500k assuming a tax/cost loss of 25% then you need to sell about 80 acres. What is the return on 80 acres could you generate an income of 30-40K/year.

This proposal smacks of Celtic Tiger era equity releases. Like another poster hinted at for every smart guy there is a few patsy's as well. celtic tiger era equity release's ended in tears in general these will as well.

The smart guy that build up big beef business's did they get a lump sum at the start or did they build from the floor. If a lad/lassie has enough land that they would have an out farm of 80acres that they felt was only a small part of the land they should not need to sell land.

Most equity release plan's do not solve the original issue. The biggest issue facing so called beef business's at present is cash flow. Marts will no longer allow large dealing accounts that went on historicaly. Is this the reason for the equity release. The reality is that a lot of dealers will have to like most of us farmers settle there bill at the end of the day rather than using mart credit to finance there games around the ring. On the other hand for a beginner this is an ideal time to start they have a level playing pitch with shrewd operators 30 years in the business.

bob charles

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

First of all Bob to raise a half a million you need to sell more than a few acres. We are gone from the heady days of the Celtic Tiger. At average land prices 8-9K/acre to raise 500k assuming a tax/cost loss of 25% then you need to sell about 80 acres. What is the return on 80 acres could you generate an income of 30-40K/year.

This proposal smacks of Celtic Tiger era equity releases. Like another poster hinted at for every smart guy there is a few patsy's as well. celtic tiger era equity release's ended in tears in general these will as well.

The smart guy that build up big beef business's did they get a lump sum at the start or did they build from the floor. If a lad/lassie has enough land that they would have an out farm of 80acres that they felt was only a small part of the land they should not need to sell land.

Most equity release plan's do not solve the original issue. The biggest issue facing so called beef business's at present is cash flow. Marts will no longer allow large dealing accounts that went on historicaly. Is this the reason for the equity release. The reality is that a lot of dealers will have to like most of us farmers settle there bill at the end of the day rather than using mart credit to finance there games around the ring. On the other hand for a beginner this is an ideal time to start they have a level playing pitch with shrewd operators 30 years in the business.

im not thinking of doing this but can think of a few I know in other parts of the ag industry that have done such and went from strength to strength. Just exploring other potential ways for the younger generation to provide cash to grow their businesses. The new credit rules for marts are a great job and has stopped allot of the messing that was going on.

IMV 80ac of land wont generate a whole load of money in a year except dairying maybe. 500k released from this 80ac would in my view generate much more moeny if used to fund extra stock, extra grain acres etc

Farmer Pudsey

bob charles wrote: »

im not thinking of doing this but can think of a few I know in other parts of the ag industry that have done such and went from strength to strength. Just exploring other potential ways for the younger generation to provide cash to grow their businesses. The new credit rules for marts are a great job and has stopped allot of the messing that was going on.

IMV 80ac of land wont generate a whole load of money in a year except dairying maybe. 500k released from this 80ac would in my view generate much more moeny if used to fund extra stock, extra grain acres etc

I will not disagree with you regarding return however the other question is if you had 500K hanging around would you give it to a son or daughter to develop there business. The other issue is that if land is sold within 10 years of inheritance you lose the agri-relief on it not sure if it remains if you reinvest it within the business but I imagine it would have to be reinvested in capital type investment.

80 acres of goodish land should generate an income of 35K/year+ with out too much hardship including SFP ( I know you have no mass in it but all the same it exists) on a drystock farm if you work as well add another 25K+. Would a 500K investment generate a 12%+ return and also guarantee the original capital.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

bob charles wrote: »

im not talking about selling a site more like selling say 50 ac and releasing 500k to either buy 100 more milking cows and plant needed or 200 extra beef animals.

After selling 50ac, and were still able to have the capacity for an additional 100-200 cattle, then the farm must be very understocked in the first place!

pakalasa

Risk - it's all about Risk. The reason land gives such a low return on investment is because it is such low risk. Can't think of a lower risk investment.
Remember too that interest rates are at an all time low, so if the banks won't lend you the money to expand, how viable is your business model? There are also venture capatilst out there, but they will want their slice of the cake too.
As Warren Buffet says - Risk is for those who don't know what they are doing. 90% of start-ups fail, so you got to convince everyone that you are part of the 10%. Good luck.

kowtow

pakalasa wrote: »

Risk - it's all about Risk. The reason land gives such a low return on investment is because it is such low risk. Can't think of a lower risk investment.
Remember too that interest rates are at an all time low, so if the banks won't lend you the money to expand, how viable is your business model? There are also venture capatilst out there, but they will want their slice of the cake too.
As Warren Buffet says - Risk is for those who don't know what they are doing. 90% of start-ups fail, so you got to convince everyone that you are part of the 10%. Good luck.

I was under the impression that land values fell by up to half in after 2008?

That isn't generally regarded as low risk.

reilig

kowtow wrote: »

I was under the impression that land values fell by up to half in after 2008?

That isn't generally regarded as low risk.

That was a scewed figure. Firstly land prices had been driven up by the building boom to unsustainable price levels. Secondly, average land values were created by combining the value of land bought for construction as well as farming.

If you take out the land bought and sold for construction, it is still fair to say that normal agricultural land did not fall that much!