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2008 Alfa Romeo 159
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18-07-2013 1:56pm#1
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Interceptor wrote: »10k miles p.a? Not worth getting the diesel and you won't save enough in fuel to merit the extra purchase price. I wouldn't worry about reliability but depreciation will be high even now - you'll only get a bag of magic beans for it if you keep it more than three years.
Bog standard answer to these threads, try having been in both these cars and it would change your mind. The 1.8 is sh1t and there's no possible way for me to put that politely, it's a crappy crappy engine and the diesel is superior in every single conceivable way.
OP I ask you to drive both cars and come back with one of them, I'd bet my shoes it would be the diesel one.
H3llR4iser wrote: »Disclaimer: I did not lose my mind, I am not affected by the heat and I didn't grow fond of diesels all of a sudden. Moreover, I still think a diesel Alfa Romeo to be borderline blasphemy.
HOWEVER
This is a really though call, Censuspro. See, the problem is that the 159 is a bit too heavy for the 1.8 TS and can feel a bit sluggish. The 1.9 JTDm tends to be a little bit more lively due to the higher torque and wider power band. It's not just a mere question of fuel consumption, mileage and the likes, ideally you should test drive both and see which one you like better...this is assuming you are looking for an Alfa as something pleasant and enjoyable to drive, and if the nearly 3.000 euro price difference isn't an issue.
Reliability, it depends on which concept of reliability we are talking about: "true" reliability, as in "a car that doesn't suddenly let you walk for no reason", then there are no problems; If it's Irish reliability, as in "how long can it be driven into the ground, without even checking if there's any oil/water/brakes fluid, before coming to a grinding halt", then we're not on track - it's a car that needs to be cared for.
Treat it well, however, and you will have a really hard time separating from it.
Again try having a go in a 2.4JTD before you call it blasphemy, something very Jeremy Clarkson esque about that post.
Also the 1.8 is no twin spark, it's a crappy GM unit.
Agree on the rest though, treat the car as if it's not a Toyota and it will give many years of fantastic service. There's a few issues with the diesel, conquer 'em and you're laughing.
IMO I'd only be going diesel OP, but I'd pay the difference but I like my cars and the way a car drives for me is very important. It might not be worth that to you but I can only advise against the 1.8,
It's sh1te.
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justsomebloke wrote: »what sort of issues, if I may ask?
There were two 1.9's brought out, one with 120bhp 8v and one with 150bhp 16v. You could tell 'em apart by the engine cover or by the badging at the back, all 150's had JTDm and the 120's just had JTDm.
The 150's had issues with swirl flaps needing to be blanked as well as the EGR valve, the 8v did not suffer from these issues, still though, find a well minded one and you're laughing as I said!
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Bog standard answer to these threads, try having been in both these cars and it would change your mind. The 1.8 is sh1t and there's no possible way for me to put that politely, it's a crappy crappy engine and the diesel is superior in every single conceivable way.
OP I ask you to drive both cars and come back with one of them, I'd bet my shoes it would be the diesel one.
Again try having a go in a 2.4JTD before you call it blasphemy, something very Jeremy Clarkson esque about that post.
Also the 1.8 is no twin spark, it's a crappy GM unit.
Agree on the rest though, treat the car as if it's not a Toyota and it will give many years of fantastic service. There's a few issues with the diesel, conquer 'em and you're laughing.
IMO I'd only be going diesel OP, but I'd pay the difference but I like my cars and the way a car drives for me is very important. It might not be worth that to you but I can only advise against the 1.8,
It's sh1te.
Nothing Clarksonesque, the 2.4JTDm sounds leaps and bounds better than most other diesels around and pulls like a locomotive (even though, if Alfa Romeo didn't suffer from the "only think about the Italian market" syndrome, that engine could have been even better), yet diesel engines intrinsically miss a huge chunk of the character an Alfa is supposed to have. You know exactly what I'm talking about - short revs, dull(ish) sound and all the torque being at the bottom end of the revs instead than at the top.
Problem is that on the 159 there's no really valid petrol option other than the 1750 TBi, of which I suspect exactly zero were ever sold in Ireland.
The 1.8 is indeed no Twin Spark, habit had the better while writing - it is from an Opel Zafira, if I remember correctly.0 -
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Or you could get the 3.2 Q4
I've the 1.9JTDm and I love it. Although it has it's quirks. Loose connection means airbag light comes on and off (no faults registered in ECU though!).
It's not a great urban driver as the 6sp gearbox means you end up changing a fair bit but once you've worked out that, you're in gravy.
Mine's remapped to 180bhp and it returns in excess of 50mpg on a run or mid 30s in town (DFP is gone).
The seats are lovely and sporty. The driving position is beautiful. The thick rimmed steering wheel is nicely weighted and the gearbox is nice short shift (although coming from 6th down can take some getting used to as 4th and 6th are easy to confuse at first on the downshift. It's got a good turn of pace and 6th was forgotten about on more than one occasion.
The stereo is a heap of crap though (double din, single CD) so I'm looking to replace it with a 7" android tab soon.
It handles like a charm too. Compared to a Honda Accord diesel it's like going from a boat to a sportscar, it's just so much more direct and yet still has no issues with poor surfaces. Well done Alfa!
Plus it is by far and away the sexiest saloon on the roads imho.
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Getting an Alfa was my best motoring decision. I previously had an Alfa 166 2.0 Twin Spark petrol (155bhp). It was a fantastic car. I had 5.5 years of blissfully happy & trouble free motoring. I was very sorry to see it go...
... so I stayed with Alfa! I just changed from the 166 to a 2008 159 JTDm 16v Ti (150bhp). I love it.
I have to agree with most of the comments above:
- The 159 is a peach & looks amazing in the right colour (black / red / silver) and the right spec (Lusso or Ti)
- The interior is amazing. Especially the Ti
- Forget the sh*te about Alfa reliability. Simply not true anymore. These days, Alfas are as good (or bad) as any of the other mainstream manufacturers.
- You're doing low mileage, so petrol is the one to go for (on paper). However, since Alfa dropped the twin spark engines, the general consensus is that the newer petrol engines are not as good. It's a crying shame they don't make the twin spark engines anymore.
- Despite your low mileage, I’d recommend a diesel. I only do 5k a year.
- My 159 diesel is faster than the 166 petrol I had, so don't fret about lack of power.
- While resale may not be an issue for you now, if you go for petrol, you’ll struggle to sell it on. Great if that’s not a problem for you, but just keep it in mind
- Agree with the poster above about the 6 speed gearing - I find it's a bit of a pain in traffic. Great on the motorway.
The bottom line is: try out a few for yourself. Use common sense - check the history, timing belts etc. Hold out for the best one you can get – plenty of Alfa owners look after their cars, so you want to get one that’s been cherished.
This is what you want... (just like mine) 0 -
There were two 1.9's brought out, one with 120bhp 8v and one with 150bhp 16v. You could tell 'em apart by the engine cover or by the badging at the back, all 150's had JTDm and the 120's just had JTDm.
The 150's had issues with swirl flaps needing to be blanked as well as the EGR valve, the 8v did not suffer from these issues, still though, find a well minded one and you're laughing as I said!
But the 120bhp 8v has the infamous M32 gearbox. The 150bhp has the better F40 gearbox.
I agree with you though, the diesel wins hands-down. The 150bhp is a very nice engine (have it in my Saab).0 -
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The Pontiac wrote: »But the 120bhp 8v has the infamous M32 gearbox. The 150bhp has the better F40 gearbox.
I agree with you though, the diesel wins hands-down. The 150bhp is a very nice engine (have it in my Saab).
Does it? I honestly didn't know that..:D
Gearbox in Dads has been superb since day 1 if a little annoying around town.
That car is nearing 90k km and 3 years of age this September and what a car it's been, honestly.
It's been serviced religiously and maintained appropriately, and it shows. In the near three years the only thing to break has been the rear wiper which himself broke anyway. I'm genuinely amazed its been that good, and a few on here have seen it and liked it!
It's been remapped to 150bhp too so that's had a nice impact, car is nippier and revs more freely.
Avoid the petrol is really all Ill say, forget that DMF/DPF sh1te, cough up the extra and enjoy your car! It's a must with an Alfa!
Great to see so many posters sharing good experiences too! 0 -
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Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!Join Date:Posts: 64848
Omg. Didn't know that. Change my vote to diesel.
Most if not all petrol engines in Alfa Romeo cars are now from Opel. It really was a sad day when Alfa stopped producing the great V6 engine that had been the single most glorious part of their cars for decades, even after they switched to inferior front wheel drive.
We have to move on, the old engine could not be made to pass the modern emission rules, but it is rather sad that a real proper great sounding V6 engine is no more. I read that the designer of the engine, Giuseppe Busso, died a few days after his engine went out of production.
I paid tribute to Guiseppe a few months ago by driving a car equipped with his engine in anger. It was lovely Lotus Elan turbo for sale:
https://www.donedeal.ie/vintagecars-for-sale/lotus-elan-turbo/38336785
My ads on adverts.ie:
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Diesel diesel diesel :cool:
A fantastic engine with so much potential. As almost all the petrol engines are non Alfa anymore, I'd be going diesel
Remember there were diesel Alfas when they were proper rwd inboard disc transaxle monsters
Ah, I had the pleasure to drive this extensively when I was 20-21 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FYr78xHcvQ
One of the thing I remember the most were the "booms" coming from the exhaust when you released the throttle. Only years later I realized it was essentially petrol being wasted just because so Alfa desired.
Different times I guess, these cars were built as if they were to live on a racetrack...essential comfort, exhilarating sound, non-existent fuel efficiency and utterly impractical to service (if you asked a mechanic to replace the rear brake discs or pads, or service the clultch, he'd rather jump off a cliff than do it)
OP, get the 159 and enjoy it...I am in car purgatory right now (Megane...), you have no idea how much I envy you 0 -
H3llR4iser wrote: »Ah, I had the pleasure to drive this extensively when I was 20-21 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FYr78xHcvQ
One of the thing I remember the most were the "booms" coming from the exhaust when you released the throttle. Only years later I realized it was essentially petrol being wasted just because so Alfa desired.
Different times I guess, these cars were built as if they were to live on a racetrack...essential comfort, exhilarating sound, non-existent fuel efficiency and utterly impractical to service (if you asked a mechanic to replace the rear brake discs or pads, or service the clultch, he'd rather jump off a cliff than do it)
OP, get the 159 and enjoy it...I am in car purgatory right now (Megane...), you have no idea how much I envy you
One of my fondest childhood memories was my dads Alfa Giulietta, 75's predecessor. Fun to change the discs alright! He drove it round almost straight piped with twin DeLortos and the noise of it coming up the road when he was finished work! I'll never ever forget it, amazing the influence a car can have
I suppose I'm trying to make up for it with the 166, the Busso can pop and bang even with the standard exhaust
and amen to non existant fuel economy :pac: I think he might be thinking the same, he bought 2 156's witthin 3 days earlier this year
One can hope and dream to hear another Giulietta running someday again to flood the mind with days bygone 0 -
One of my fondest childhood memories was my dads Alfa Giulietta, 75's predecessor. Fun to change the discs alright! He drove it round almost straight piped with twin DeLortos and the noise of it coming up the road when he was finished work! I'll never ever forget it, amazing the influence a car can have
One can hope and dream to hear another Giulietta running someday again to flood the mind with days bygone
...you mean this model, in a 1.8 ??
Great cars - I had a red 1.8 one with the Twin 40 DHLA's (iirc
) on it.......gearbox was a complete PITA though; you couldn't keep 2nd gear syncromesh in them.......... Ode To The Motorist
“And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road”
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One of my fondest childhood memories was my dads Alfa Giulietta, 75's predecessor. Fun to change the discs alright! He drove it round almost straight piped with twin DeLortos and the noise of it coming up the road when he was finished work! I'll never ever forget it, amazing the influence a car can have
I suppose I'm trying to make up for it with the 166, the Busso can pop and bang even with the standard exhaust and amen to non existant fuel economy :pac: I think he might be thinking the same, he bought 2 156's witthin 3 days earlier this year
One can hope and dream to hear another Giulietta running someday again to flood the mind with days bygone
Ah no worries man, my roots go back to the Giulietta too...my dad had a 2.0 Cloverleaf
And now don't get me started on "days bygone"; It's a long and complex thing, but in the end the truth is that people lost the will, want and taste of enjoyment 0 -
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Does it? I honestly didn't know that..:D
Gearbox in Dads has been superb since day 1 if a little annoying around town.
That car is nearing 90k km and 3 years of age this September and what a car it's been, honestly.
It's been serviced religiously and maintained appropriately, and it shows. In the near three years the only thing to break has been the rear wiper which himself broke anyway. I'm genuinely amazed its been that good, and a few on here have seen it and liked it!
It's been remapped to 150bhp too so that's had a nice impact, car is nippier and revs more freely.
Avoid the petrol is really all Ill say, forget that DMF/DPF sh1te, cough up the extra and enjoy your car! It's a must with an Alfa!
Great to see so many posters sharing good experiences too!
Maybe the M32 is not as bad as my research led me to believe.
See post #9 on this thread for tips on keeping it intact.
It's fitted to a lot of cars - Vectra, Astra, 159, Saab's etc., so can't be as bad as google makes out. Happy driving.0 -
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The Pontiac wrote: »I get 5.9L/100km on my 9-3, but never owned a VAG so can't compare.It is a lovely engine alright.
How would you compare the 9-5 to the 9-3? (I see your selling a 9-5). Not impressed with the interior quality of the 9-3 tbh. There's rattles everywhere, especially on the poorer roads.
Straight up ? The engine in the 9-3 is better. Smoother, quieter, more powerful. Didn't like the EGR cleaning or DMF service. Servicing and TB change cheap. 43mpg. Bigger than an A4. Interior a mixed bag. Some bits ordinary, no Audi but ok. Lovely seats.
The 9-5 was bought because its an older simpler engine, no swirl valve potential issues, and being an automatic, no DMF or clutch
9-5 as a car though is much nicer. Better quality all round. Huge inside. Are fond of bushes (mine just done). 38-43 mpg. A bit boaty but it's not trying to be a sports car.....cheap to service, no timing belt to do. Auto box very smooth (think it's a Jap one iirc...). And of course, cheaper than 9-3.Ode To The Motorist
“And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road”
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Straight up ? The engine in the 9-3 is better. Smoother, quieter, more powerful. Didn't like the EGR cleaning or DMF service. Servicing and TB change cheap. 43mpg. Bigger than an A4. Interior a mixed bag. Some bits ordinary, no Audi but ok. Lovely seats.
The 9-5 was bought because its an older simpler engine, no swirl valve potential issues, and being an automatic, no DMF or clutch
9-5 as a car though is much nicer. Better quality all round. Huge inside. Are fond of bushes (mine just done). 38-43 mpg. A bit boaty but it's not trying to be a sports car.....cheap to service, no timing belt to do. Auto box very smooth (think it's a Jap one iirc...). And of course, cheaper than 9-3.
The Fiat 1.9 EGR does need to be cleaned fairly regularly and is a bit messy. I did mine and it was totally clogged up. Supposed to be a nightmare on the 8v/120bhp as there's little or no access.
DMF would need to price-factored-in to any of these engines with 100k (or less) on the clock imo. €800 from an indie (sub-frame has to be removed).
Good comparison in your post to the 9-3 V's 9-5. The 9-3 with sports suspension is not good on Irish roads.
The 9-5 represents good value, in both saloon and estate versions.0 -
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OP here again. Many thanks for the detailed replies above. Had a test drive of the petrol version which had a terrible sound coming from the exhaust when I took it for a drive.
The diesel version looks more appealing now, however my main overriding concern is reliability of the Alfa's. I know some posters above had touched on this but feedback I'm getting from people in general including my mechanic is no to touch them and that it's difficult to get parts for and if anything does go wrong it will "put me in the poor house" Is this a fair statement?
Difficult to get parts? Compared to a Toyota or a Ford it might be true, but I can't see new parts being more difficult to find than any other premium brand's. I have no idea about the cost right now - again they're certainly more expensive than your average run of the mill Japanese brand, but I would guess they are in BMW territory, price-wise.
The only thing there is one thing to consider: 159s are quite rare in Ireland, so finding second hand parts will be next to impossible - you need anything, you'll need to get it new. However, there's always eBay
As for the reliability, as everybody with a minimum experience and understanding of Alfa Romeo told you already, it's no worse and no better than other premium brands provided you take care of the car properly. Keep the fluids on level, service it regularly, treat the engine well (most Alfa engines, including the JTDs, are at their best when you let them stretch their legs a bit). You wouldn't drive a BMW 3-Series with no coolant, 30k km old oil, clogged filters and then blame it on "reliability" when it leaves you to walk, would you? An Alfa is no different.
As for the "feedback from people in general", how many of the detractors actually ever owned an Alfa Romeo or two, and had endless problems? I am sure that if you investigate, it turns out most of them have an opinion based on hearsay - and drive a Toyota Corolla.
You have several people here, who owned and drove multiple Alfa Romeos, telling you that the poor reliability reputation is essentially myth spawned by people not knowing how to keep a car in good shape, and yet you prefer to listen to the "people in general".
As for the mechanic...well in my experience, if we all listened to the mechanic we'd all be driving around in '98 Micras
Finally, as Bazz26 pointed out, the whole JTD architecture (engine, electronics and gearbox) are actually used on many more cars and brands than just Fiat and Alfa Romeo. When a car manufacturer decides against developing their own mechanics and buy them from a third party, it might mean that such technology is well proven...
Out of curiosity OP, what car do you drive at the moment?0 -
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OP here again. Many thanks for the detailed replies above. Had a test drive of the petrol version which had a terrible sound coming from the exhaust when I took it for a drive.
The diesel version looks more appealing now, however my main overriding concern is reliability of the Alfa's. I know some posters above had touched on this but feedback I'm getting from people in general including my mechanic is no to touch them and that it's difficult to get parts for and if anything does go wrong it will "put me in the poor house" Is this a fair statement?
Did I mention the 1.8 is crap?
The 1.9 is where it's at tbh, but maybe you need to look for a new mechanic because the idea that you shouldn't touch them or are hard to get parts is just simply, rubbish. Look after them and they'll look after you and parts are easily available both here and in the UK.
If anything goes wrong with modern Audis Mercs and BMW's then you'll know about being in the poor house...;)
Go on off out and drive a diesel one and then bring someone who knows his stuff about 'em to view one. 0 -
H3llR4iser wrote: »Difficult to get parts? Compared to a Toyota or a Ford it might be true, but I can't see new parts being more difficult to find than any other premium brand's. I have no idea about the cost right now - again they're certainly more expensive than your average run of the mill Japanese brand, but I would guess they are in BMW territory, price-wise.
The only thing there is one thing to consider: 159s are quite rare in Ireland, so finding second hand parts will be next to impossible - you need anything, you'll need to get it new. However, there's always eBay
As for the reliability, as everybody with a minimum experience and understanding of Alfa Romeo told you already, it's no worse and no better than other premium brands provided you take care of the car properly. Keep the fluids on level, service it regularly, treat the engine well (most Alfa engines, including the JTDs, are at their best when you let them stretch their legs a bit). You wouldn't drive a BMW 3-Series with no coolant, 30k km old oil, clogged filters and then blame it on "reliability" when it leaves you to walk, would you? An Alfa is no different.
As for the "feedback from people in general", how many of the detractors actually ever owned an Alfa Romeo or two, and had endless problems? I am sure that if you investigate, it turns out most of them have an opinion based on hearsay - and drive a Toyota Corolla.
You have several people here, who owned and drove multiple Alfa Romeos, telling you that the poor reliability reputation is essentially myth spawned by people not knowing how to keep a car in good shape, and yet you prefer to listen to the "people in general".
As for the mechanic...well in my experience, if we all listened to the mechanic we'd all be driving around in '98 Micras
Finally, as Bazz26 pointed out, the whole JTD architecture (engine, electronics and gearbox) are actually used on many more cars and brands than just Fiat and Alfa Romeo. When a car manufacturer decides against developing their own mechanics and buy them from a third party, it might mean that such technology is well proven...
Out of curiosity OP, what car do you drive at the moment?
I'm car pooling a Zafira with the OH atm, which is why I'm looking for another car.0 -
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A few of us were talking about cars over few beers at the week-end. Once lad told me that Alfas are rubbish. He’d never owned one himself (or even driven one) but apparently his mechanic said Alfas are bad news. I asked him what sort of problems they gave, but he didn’t know.
In my 5.5 trouble free years of 166 ownership, my wife had 3 different cars. A Renault Scenic, then a Grand Scenic, then a Citroen C5 Tourer. All 1-3 years old when we bought them. Aside from normal servicing, each of them required another 2-3 garage visits per year. Mainly for crappy electrical issues which invariably required an expensive replacement part (€450 to fix Grand Scenic aircon, €300 for an electric window regulator in the C5). Typically, these parts were out of warranty.
Despite all of this, when I decided to buy another Alfa, do you know what my wife said?... "I know they're lovely cars, but you think an Alfa is reliable enough to use as the main family car?"
That's a true story.
OP, I reckon you're better off going for a Toyota, Skoda or VW. You know… something reliable. Stay away from Alfas. That leaves more choice for those of us who actually know how good they are. But if you do go for a 159, stay away from the 1.9JTDm. That’s the worst of the lot. 0 -
OP, I reckon you're better off going for a Toyota, Skoda or VW. You know… something reliable. Stay away from Alfas. That leaves more choice for those of us who actually know how good they are. But if you do go for a 159, stay away from the 1.9JTDm. That’s the worst of the lot.
:P
leaving out the /s, aren't you ? lol0 -
Supergurrier wrote: »Jayzus the diesel fanbois are out again.
Did 20,000km last year @23mpg and came to feck all.
Buying a diesel when you drive half that is lunacy
Not at all...the problem with the 159 is that, apart from the 1750 TBi, which is rarer than a competent politician in Ireland, the petrol engines are not up to the task. Extremely sad but true
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