'Racist ' Comments

Davidth88

With a major story line appearing in Coronation St where someone uses the phrase

' Play the White man '

and this is taken as racist.

What do people think, my understanding is that this turn of phrase came from the black/white movies , esp westerns , where the 'goodie' always wore a white hat, so is not actually racist per se.

To me ( a middle aged bloke ) , it's amazing what's now taken as racist, apparently if you are watching a kids football game and the only black player is very good and you turn round and say ' who is the black kid , he is good ' , that's now racist. Why ? To me you are only using a distinguishing feature such as ginger hair or tall/short.

I always understood racisim as if you act differently towards someone of a different race purely because of their race

oldyouth

I saw that in Corrie. I never heard the phrase before and can't figure out the racist context myself.

southsiderosie

I have never heard that in my life. When I looked it up online, apparently it dates from colonial times and means "be honest and civilized" - with the implication that everyone else is not.

Frank Lee Midere

Davidth88 wrote: »

With a major story line appearing in Coronation St where someone uses the phrase

' Play the White man '

and this is taken as racist.

What do people think, my understanding is that this turn of phrase came from the black/white movies , esp westerns , where the 'goodie' always wore a white hat, so is not actually racist per se.

To me ( a middle aged bloke ) , it's amazing what's now taken as racist, apparently if you are watching a kids football game and the only black player is very good and you turn round and say ' who is the black kid , he is good ' , that's now racist. Why ? To me you are only using a distinguishing feature such as ginger hair or tall/short.

I always understood racisim as if you act differently towards someone of a different race purely because of their race

I doubt if any sane person would see "the black kid" as racist. Are you sure that's not a strawman argument.

The Corrie phrase sounds odd.

sbsquarepants

Davidth88 wrote: »

To me ( a middle aged bloke ) , it's amazing what's now taken as racist, apparently if you are watching a kids football game and the only black player is very good and you turn round and say ' who is the black kid , he is good ' , that's now racist. Why ? To me you are only using a distinguishing feature such as ginger hair or tall/short.

I always understood racisim as if you act differently towards someone of a different race purely because of their race

I think that people have confused racism with political correctness. There is absolutely no problem that i can see with using someones race as an identifying feature - for example where i work there is only 1 black guy, if someone comes in looking for him i say "that's him down there, the black guy" no confusion, no racism, no problem.

The Corrie phrase sounds odd.

A bit of (manufactured) controversy never does the viewing figures any harm!


As an aside - myself and the missus were in the square shopping center a week or so ago and had occasion to call to the reception desk. The missus is talking to the very nice woman behind the counter who tells her "You've a lovely colour, people will mistake you for a blackie!" Now that's a bit closer to the bone i suppose (plus the missus is half egyptian) but there was no malice in it, so what's the problem? People are just too damn touchy and think they have to be outraged at every throw away comment, it's ridiculous.

Davidth88

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

I doubt if any sane person would see "the black kid" as racist. Are you sure that's not a strawman argument.

The Corrie phrase sounds odd.

The phrase

' Play the white man ' is in common enough usage in England , I have never thought it was racist , as I said I thought it came from the b/w movie period.

oldyouth

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

I doubt if any sane person would see "the black kid" as racist. Are you sure that's not a strawman argument.
.

I have to say I come across the football example all the time. When watching a game, you often hear lads saying things like "that baldy/ginger/stocky/short/lanky etc lad over there is a grand player". If you want to comment about who might be the only black player on the pitch, you are reluctant to identify him from the other players by his colour

iDave

Politican correctness was created with good intentions but now its become a monster

bumper234

southsiderosie wrote: »

I have never heard that in my life. When I looked it up online, apparently it dates from colonial times and means "be honest and civilized" - with the implication that everyone else is not.

From the westerns as well where the good guy always wore white and the baddies always wore black so people in black and white cinemas could distinguish who was who

Davidth88

oldyouth wrote: »

I have to say I come across the football example all the time. When watching a game, you often hear lads saying things like "that baldy/ginger/stocky/short/lanky etc lad over there is a grand player". If you want to comment about who might be the only black player on the pitch, you are reluctant to identify him from the other players by his colour

I have actually heard of people being pulled up from the Football Authorities for exactly this hence why I said it.

Why on earth is calling someone black in this context racist ?

Amirani

iDave wrote: »

Politican correctness was created with good intentions but now its become a monster

Some people take it too seriously. I think the vast majority of people can understand the difference between using someone's ethnicity as an identifying feature and actively discriminating against them based on that. I wouldn't pay much attention to the faux outrage of people who don't understand the difference.

_Kaiser_

Never heard of that phrase myself but reading the context from southsiderosie, it seems similar to "be whiter than white"

I agree with the general point though. Not only is everything racist now but the boundaries keep shifting as well. And then there's double-standards too - like it's ok for black people to call each other N****rs, but woe betide anyone else who does so.

Personally I can't stand the ridiculous PC, touchy-feely crap that's become so pervasive in the last 20-odd years. As someone above said, a throwaway comment isn't necessarily immediately racist (again especially because the "rules" keep changing anyway), it's the context in which it's used that matters!

I also despise the all-too-common (even on Boards) cry of racism/discrimination/xenophobia to attempt to Godwin certain discussions.. no matter how valid the content or subject matter might be!

WHIP IT!

Davidth88 wrote: »

I have actually heard of people being pulled up from the Football Authorities for exactly this hence why I said it.

Why on earth is calling someone black in this context racist ?

How exactly were they "pulled up" and who, in this case, are the "football authorities"?

southsiderosie

Davidth88 wrote: »

I have actually heard of people being pulled up from the Football Authorities for exactly this hence why I said it.

Why on earth is calling someone black in this context racist ?

Having participated in sports where I was the only black person (swimming - I was quite literally the fly in the soup, :P LOL), I can see why other people might be uncomfortable with it, as you are singling out someone who is probably very conscious about being THE ONLY ONE. In my experience, those uncomfortable people aren't usually black people, but rather white people trying to, in their view, spare the black person's feelings.

In team sports where people wear numbers, I guess you could just say "Number 10 is really good", even though you know everyone will be thinking "yeah, the black kid is really good".

southsiderosie

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

And then there's double-standards too - like it's ok for black people to call each other N****rs, but woe betide anyone else who does so.

I agree with some of what you said, but can we stop with this please? Its use is actually pretty controversial within the black community. Just because some (often, highly visible) black folks say this doesn't mean that it is ok with everyone - plenty of black people HATE that word, particularly older people who were not called that as a term of endearment.

Davidth88

WHIP IT! wrote: »

How exactly were they "pulled up" and who, in this case, are the "football authorities"?

In this case it was a local ( English County ) level FA...... the person was actually officially warned !

gramar

Never heard the Corrie expression.

As for the black kid. Is he good because he's black or is he a black kid who happens to be good? It's no more than a physical trait to identify someone for most people but there are always some sensitive souls who like to defend the cause of others because they themselves feel uncomfortable.

oldyouth

Davidth88 wrote: »

I have actually heard of people being pulled up from the Football Authorities for exactly this hence why I said it.

Why on earth is calling someone black in this context racist ?

Ah, but football authorities are generally gobshlts. Not wanting to divert the thread, but the club I support got fined for ''racist abuse' by the FAI because fans started calling a (white) player a donkey

giant_midget

It means to be decent and trustworthy..I don't see an issue with it?

Sir Humphrey Appleby

giant_midget wrote: »

It means to be decent and trustworthy..I don't see an issue with it?

If that is the case doesn't it directly infer that non whites are not decent and trustworthy?

_Kaiser_

southsiderosie wrote: »

I agree with some of what you said, but can we stop with this please? Its use is actually pretty controversial within the black community. Just because some (often, highly visible) black folks say this doesn't mean that it is ok with everyone - plenty of black people HATE that word, particularly older people who were not called that as a term of endearment.

Maybe so, but even if someone hates that term, I guarantee the reaction would be very different if another black person calls them a N****r vs a white person doing so.

FTA69

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Maybe so, but even if someone hates that term, I guarantee the reaction would be very different if another black person calls them a N****r vs a white person doing so.

Of course it would be, because the context is completely and utterly different. "N*gger" was a term used to remind black people of their status as second-class human beings. It was used by white people specifically to exercise social dominance over blacks, an instantaneous expression of power and subjugation. A black person using the word while conversing with another black person is a totally different thing.

Why is it so important to you that you should be "allowed" to use the word as well?

_Kaiser_

FTA69 wrote: »

Of course it would be, because the context is completely and utterly different. "N*gger" was a term used to remind black people of their status as second-class human beings. It was used by white people specifically to exercise social dominance over blacks, an instantaneous expression of power and subjugation. A black person using the word while conversing with another black person is a totally different thing.

Why is it so important to you that you should be "allowed" to use the word as well?

It's not that I want to be "allowed" use it as well, but it's either acceptable or it's not. If society has decided the latter then it should be unacceptable for anyone to use it, regardless of colour.

You've actually proven my point of the ridiculousness of PC-ness for me though so cheers.

jimgoose

I always thought it just meant act like Steve Martin in The Jerk. I do that anyway, so 'tis all the one acre a' sh!t. :cool:

FTA69

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

It's not that I want to be "allowed" use it as well, but it's either acceptable or it's not. If society has decided the latter then it should be unacceptable for anyone to use it, regardless of colour.

You've actually proven my point of the ridiculousness of PC-ness for me though so cheers.

It isn't a case of "ridiculousness", rather that you can't accept the pretty blatant fact that there is a huge difference between a black person using the term as a greeting or reference and a white person using it as a derogatory and supremacist term. The contexts are entirely different. "Society" also hasn't deemed the term "acceptable", as southsiderosie said, there is controversy within the black community itself about the term. N*gger is a loaded term with horrific connotations when used by white people, there is no comparison. No matter how much you want there to be. The fact you're not allowed to refer to blacks as "n*ggers" doesn't mean you're hard done by like.

If I refer to my friend as a "Mayo b*llocks" it hardly has the same connotations as an English foreman calling me a "thick Irish f*cker" in anger does it?

_Kaiser_

FTA69 wrote: »

It isn't a case of "ridiculousness", rather that you can't accept the pretty blatant fact that there is a huge difference between a black person using the term as a greeting or reference and a white person using it as a derogatory and supremacist term. The contexts are entirely different. "Society" also hasn't deemed the term "acceptable", as southsiderosie said, there is controversy within the black community itself about the term. N*gger is a loaded term with horrific connotations when used by white people, there is no comparison. No matter how much you want there to be. The fact you're not allowed to refer to blacks as "n*ggers" doesn't mean you're hard done by like.

If I refer to my friend as a "Mayo b*llocks" it hardly has the same connotations as an English foreman calling me a "thick Irish f*cker" in anger does it?

Read what I said again.. As society has in fact deemed it unacceptable then it should be unacceptable for all. Setting out double-standards, or "ah but it's ok if..." exceptions just defeats the whole point.

But you have again made my point. It's really all about context, not blanket rules on what is/isn't acceptable... and that's why PC-ness is, and always has been, a farce

Stojkovic

bumper234 wrote: »

From the westerns as well where the good guy always wore white and the baddies always wore black so people in black and white cinemas could distinguish who was who

Zorro wore black

jimgoose

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Read what I said again.. As society has in fact deemed it unacceptable then it should be unacceptable for all. Setting out double-standards, or "ah but it's ok if..." exceptions just defeats the whole point.

But you have again made my point. It's really all about context, not blanket rules on what is/isn't acceptable... and that's why PC-ness is, and always has been, a farce

So you are of the view that having the simple courtesy to not call black people "****" at least to their faces is some sort of political correctness farce? You need to sit under a tree and do some thinking. And like most human issues, this is contextual and riddled with grey areas. That's why we don't just let machines get on with it while we bugger off down the pub.

FTA69

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

But you have again made my point. It's really all about context, not blanket rules on what is/isn't acceptable... and that's why PC-ness is, and always has been, a farce

So what point are you arguing then? Context is of course the key. A white person calling a black person a "n*gger" (or vice versa racism) will always be wrong. But a black person calling another black person that word isn't nearly the same.

Same word, vastly different situations. The fact you're white means you'll never be able to use the term in the same context as "what's up nigga?" or any of that other stuff. That isn't a "double standard", rather the simple acknowledgement that the two situations can never be the same.

I Heart Internet

Coronation Street is appalingly and inherently racist.

It portrays the poor asian guy who plays Dev http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dev_Alahan as an absolutley abysmal actor. Shame on them.

Davidth88

I Heart Internet wrote: »

It portrays the poor asian guy who plays Dev http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dev_Alahan as an absolutley abysmal actor. Shame on them.

Totally agree with this part ... but there is a seperate forum for that I guess

Nodster

Suppose it's not kosher to say I'm off for a Barry White the next time I'm off to the loo?

Duckjob

My definition of racism is having an unfounded negative opinion of a different race.

When I was in school I had an argument with our civics teacher who said that even acknowledging any difference between you and another race made you rascist. A 13-yr-old Duckjob told her her viewpoint was ridiculous and part of the problem

9959

Nodster wrote: »

Suppose it's not kosher to say I'm off for a Barry White the next time I'm off to the loo?

Well it's certainly not polite. Saying you're "off to the loo" is usually sufficient, once there you can have a 'peddle & crank', a 'Jimmy Riddle' or indeed a 'Barry White', though I have to say that rhyming slang is far more diverse and open to interpretation than it ever was, if you must use colour and rhyme in reference to your feces why not namecheck another singer of songs from the 70's namely, Barry Blue, as in Blue=Poo.
Besides, I truly believe that the late great Walrus of Love deserves more respect then to be compared to your sh1te.
Have some manners please.

jimgoose

9959 wrote: »

Well it's certainly not polite. Saying you're "off to the loo" is usually sufficient, once there you can have a 'peddle & crank', a 'Jimmy Riddle' or indeed a 'Barry White', though I have to say that rhyming slang is far more diverse and open to interpretation than it ever was, if you must use colour and rhyme in reference to your feces why not namecheck another singer of songs from the 70's namely, Barry Blue, as in Blue=Poo.
Besides, I truly believe that the late great Walrus of Love deserves more respect then to be compared to your sh1te.
Have some manners please.

You'll find that the correct term is "Efan", as in Efan Ekoku.

Crooked Jack

Davidth88 wrote: »

With a major story line appearing in Coronation St where someone uses the phrase

' Play the White man '

and this is taken as racist.

What do people think, my understanding is that this turn of phrase came from the black/white movies , esp westerns , where the 'goodie' always wore a white hat, so is not actually racist per se.

To me ( a middle aged bloke ) , it's amazing what's now taken as racist, apparently if you are watching a kids football game and the only black player is very good and you turn round and say ' who is the black kid , he is good ' , that's now racist. Why ? To me you are only using a distinguishing feature such as ginger hair or tall/short.

I always understood racisim as if you act differently towards someone of a different race purely because of their race

last year the British secretary of state (at the time) Owen Paterson came to Newry to launch some business venture. It was around the time of the fiscal treaty and when he was questioned on it he said "well, Britain has always stood by Ireland in Europe and played the white man."
I questioned him and his office on it and they refused to answer.
But yes, i looked it up for the story I was doing and it's an old, colonial, racist term.

wadacrack

Davidth88 wrote: »

With a major story line appearing in Coronation St where someone uses the phrase

' Play the White man '

and this is taken as racist.

What do people think, my understanding is that this turn of phrase came from the black/white movies , esp westerns , where the 'goodie' always wore a white hat, so is not actually racist per se.

To me ( a middle aged bloke ) , it's amazing what's now taken as racist, apparently if you are watching a kids football game and the only black player is very good and you turn round and say ' who is the black kid , he is good ' , that's now racist. Why ? To me you are only using a distinguishing feature such as ginger hair or tall/short.

I always understood racisim as if you act differently towards someone of a different race purely because of their race

It is a touch racist tho.If It was said play the black man in an american tv show there would be no doubt. The phrase is using an old stereotype which is just stupid and backdated

Irish Guitarist

Years ago in Eastenders Dot Cotton went to one of the market stalls and asked for some 'nigger brown' wool. They would never get away with that now. Also the Indian residents were referred to as pakis.

wp_rathead

My house mate was telling me about time he was playing astroturf and when team were deciding who was in goals he immediatly touched his nose and went "nigs" (Not In Goals). Now there were players on the other team who happened to be black and took great offence.to him saying this - not believing that it had no racial connotation as it sounded similar to the "N" word.

My point is that sometimes things can be lost in translation as racism is such an emotive issue.. i

FTA69

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Years ago in Eastenders Dot Cotton went to one of the market stalls and asked for some 'nigger brown' wool. They would never get away with that now. Also the Indian residents would be referred to as pakis.

If Eastenders was realistic half of the cast would be from Bangladesh.

kylith

Davidth88 wrote: »

To me ( a middle aged bloke ) , it's amazing what's now taken as racist, apparently if you are watching a kids football game and the only black player is very good and you turn round and say ' who is the black kid , he is good ' , that's now racist. Why ? To me you are only using a distinguishing feature such as ginger hair or tall/short.

We were talking about it in work yesterday, and basically in Ireland 'Black person' is usually ok, though some people prefer to be identified by nationality or as 'African' (and lets face it if you said you were looking for 'the African man' people would know who you meant). In the US 'black' is racist and African American is preferred. I don't like the term African American as it implies that the person sees themselves as African, but then many Americans are all hell-bent on self identifying with a nationality their family left decades if not centuries ago.

I always understood racisim as if you act differently towards someone of a different race purely because of their race

That'd be the textbook definition all right, and the one I'd go by. Of course these days people (probably white ones) are going around defining everything from 'black-hearted' to 'blackboard' as racist.

oldyouth wrote: »

I saw that in Corrie. I never heard the phrase before and can't figure out the racist context myself.

It's really only racist if you are unaware of the origin of the phrase; in westerns the good guy would wear a white hat and the baddie would wear a black hat so that they could be easily told apart on a black and white telly.

major bill

Think Irish humor sometimes is misinterpreted for racism,

major bill

kylith wrote: »

We were talking about it in work yesterday, and basically in Ireland 'Black person' is usually ok, though some people prefer to be identified by nationality or as 'African' (and lets face it if you said you were looking for 'the African man' people would know who you meant). In the US 'black' is racist and African American is preferred. I don't like the term African American as it implies that the person sees themselves as African, but then many Americans are all hell-bent on self identifying with a nationality their family left decades if not centuries ago.

That'd be the textbook definition all right, and the one I'd go by. Of course these days people (probably white ones) are going around defining everything from 'black-hearted' to 'blackboard' as racist.


It's really only racist if you are unaware of the origin of the phrase; in westerns the good guy would wear a white hat and the baddie would wear a black hat so that they could be easily told apart on a black and white telly.

Talking to an ex pat in Scotland that said the word Blackboard can't be said cos its not politically correct, Silly stuff

FTA69

kylith wrote: »

In the US 'black' is racist and African American is preferred. I don't like the term African American as it implies that the person sees themselves as African, but then many Americans are all hell-bent on self identifying with a nationality their family left decades if not centuries ago.

I don't think it is. I'd say that "black" is more common parlance in the US than "African American" in everyday discourse. It is in my experience anyway. It's also a bit of a silly catch all term. If you called a Jamaican "African American" he'd be rightly p*ssed off.

kylith

FTA69 wrote: »

I don't think it is. I'd say that "black" is more common parlance in the US than "African American" in everyday discourse.

Maybe so, but I don't think I've heard it used on telly for a good while

It is in my experience anyway. It's also a bit of a silly catch all term. If you called a Jamaican "African American" he'd be rightly p*ssed off.

That's the problem I have with it alright. Show someone from the US a picture of Lenny Henry and they'd probably say that he was African-American, when he is neither, he's British. I don't mean that they'd consider all black people worldwide African American, but that if they didn't know who he was they would probably assume, and I try to make as few assumptions as possible about people.

sbsquarepants

FTA69 wrote: »

It isn't a case of "ridiculousness", rather that you can't accept the pretty blatant fact that there is a huge difference between a black person using the term as a greeting or reference and a white person using it as a derogatory and supremacist term.

Any person using it as a derogatory and supremacist term is wrong plain and simple - the colour of their skin is absolutely immaterial, or at least it should be. If descrimination on the grounds of race is wrong (which i for one believe it is) then it is wrong across the board.
You can't say something is only permitted for white people, so why can you say it's permitted only for black people - that's racism in a nutshell, however well intentioned.
So i'm with kaiser here, the word is either acceptable or it's not - end of.

Frank Lee Midere

In the US black used in normal conversation and on tv shows showing normal conversation even in the states. News reports would say African American as they would say Caucasian.

In normal convo that's black and white.

Davidth88

I hate the term African American TBH

I worked with a South African White guy , he did some work in the US and had to fill in a form with his ethic origin , he ticked African and was told he couldn't be African because he wasn't black !!

FTA69

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Any person using it as a derogatory and supremacist term is wrong plain and simple - the colour of their skin is absolutely immaterial, or at least it should be. If descrimination on the grounds of race is wrong (which i for one believe it is) then it is wrong across the board.

But when blacks use the word it isn't in a derogatory or supremacist manner. That's the point. It's only used by white people in that sense.

You can't say something is only permitted for white people, so why can you say it's permitted only for black people -

First of all most black people don't use the term. Second of all, white calling black a "n*gger" is racist. Black calling black a "n*gger" isn't. The situations are different. How is that so hard to comprehend?

gramar

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Years ago in Eastenders Dot Cotton went to one of the market stalls and asked for some 'nigger brown' wool. They would never get away with that now. Also the Indian residents were referred to as pakis.

Why are they called Pakis if they're from India?
If it's used to identuify someone in a non-offensive way then I don't see the problem.

People use my nationality all of the time to identify me but it's not offensive.

major bill

FTA69 wrote: »

sbsquarepants wrote: »

But when blacks use the word it isn't in a derogatory or supremacist manner. That's the point. It's only used by white people in that sense.



First of all most black people don't use the term. Second of all, white calling black a "n*gger" is racist. Black calling black a "n*gger" isn't. The situations are different. How is that so hard to comprehend?

If I said to a black person I knew, alright ****** in the same attitude used by Black people towards one another, it would be seeing as racist, I have no problem with Black people calling each other **** but a White person can't say it in the same context cos its seen as racist thats what I can't accept. Black comedians continuously using the term white boy or grouping white people because of their skin yet a white comedian can't dare mention or stereotype the Black male

Words are words, they don't hurt nor bother me but we are now living in a world where sensitivity is so high peoples careers and lively hoods are been destroyed over the littlest of things