Catholicism in Ireland; How long has it got left?

Liamario

Right now, I think it's very much a cultural thing. Are we moving towards a more secular society, maybe even towards humanism? Will the church turn it around and start bringing in sexy priests for the ladies?

wp_rathead

As long as it keeps it's nose in our education system don't see it goin anywhere fast unfort

kylith

Yeah, if we could get it out of the schools I'd say the decline would be fairly rapid. You'd see them stop insisting on baptism certs for church weddings within 20 years, I'd say, and they'd just start renting the space out with an optional priest.

As it is, I'd say 30-40 years; the youngest people I know who would go to church of their own accord are in their 40s now. Although the influx of immigrants might prolong it a bit more.

Sarky

True evil never dies. It'll cling on with everything it's got, like a bloodsucking tick. Numbers might reduce but those remaining will be hardcore loons like the Youth Defence leaders.

Geomy

I think it's going to be around for a long time yet, im sure they will change the goalposts like they did numerous times over the last 2000 year's

Watch this space...

shruikan2553

I would say it has another while left, people my age (20) will be having children and some parents would still be part of the "ah sure the christening is a day out" brigade. Our grandchildren on the other hand, I doubt they will be taking part in anything religious except for the the people who take their religion a bit too seriously. They will be loud but have no power.

Zillah

That is not dead which can eternal lie

Sarky

Zillah wrote: »

That is not dead which can eternal lie

Ah, don't go sullying the Cthulhu mythos by comparing it to Catholicism!

Liamario

In my own experience, secondary school kids didn't talk about religion in any way shape or form. Also, with numbers dropping and no new priests joining; who's left to spread and to even recieve the 'good word'.

Akrasia

The church is on it's last legs in Ireland. In 20 years time they'll have practically no priests or nuns or monks left. While many people still get their kids baptised communion etc for the sake of tradition, hardly any of these kids will still have a strong belief in god by the time they leave secondary school.

The kids who are leaving school today probably won't be religious and neither will their friends. They'll all know people who didn't get their children baptised so choosing baptism is more of a choice than just the default.

I'm 30, when I was growing up, I didn't know any other children who weren't baptised except for one Bahai family who had a different religion.

I have 3 kids, none of them are baptised.

When my kids go to school (and it will be a catholic school) then all of their classmates will have been exposed to at least 1 family where the children are not taking part in the religious activities because they have not been baptised into any religion.

So when they have their own kids, they'll be thinking about whether they should get them baptised, and their parents probably won't be religious either so the pressure on them be more along the lines of 'Could you just do it to keep your child's great-granny happy'.
Great grannys are great and all, but the're not anywhere near as influential as grannies/mammys

Given the lack of priests in 2023 Ireland, there will be additional barriers to Baptism. Scheduling conflicts, mass baptisms which have already started which will further put off the non committed cultural catholics of the future.

The church is dead on it's feet. Nobody under the age of 50 believes any of the doctrines of the church anymore. Nobody cares about the churchs position on sex outside of marriage or contraception or divorce. Soon Homosexual marriage will be legal.
Within 10 years, we will have a more humaine attitude towards things like Euthanasia and abortion (especially in cases where the foetus has no chance of survival)
And we're all much much better off for it.

kylith

Akrasia wrote: »

The church is on it's last legs in Ireland. In 20 years time they'll have practically no priests or nuns or monks left.

On this note; they are now bringing in priests from outside Ireland. My parents were telling me about 'Some Nigerian fella' who said mass in their local cathedral recently.

Hotblack Desiato

kylith wrote: »

On this note; they are now bringing in priests from outside Ireland. My parents were telling me about 'Some Nigerian fella' who said mass in their local cathedral recently.

It is rather ironic that the most frequent massgoers in Ireland, little oul' wans, are also among the most racist... how will they cope with the inner conflict???

Sarky

How will a bunch of people who have been Catholics all their lives cope with cognitive dissonance? That's a real noodle-scratcher there :pac:

Hotblack Desiato

Q. What is the definition of an atheist?

A. A catholic who has read the bible.

Sarky

Sarky wrote: »

True evil never dies. It'll cling on with everything it's got, like a bloodsucking tick. Numbers might reduce but those remaining will be hardcore loons like the Youth Defence leaders.

I don't mind the loons. At least they make a proper effort at abiding by the ridiculous rules in the big book.


"Ah sure what harm is it"

Sarky

You'll mind them once the cultural Catholics are so few that they feel like they're backed into a corner and they resort to nastier and nastier measures to try and stay in the limelight. Think Youth Defence but obsessed with things besides dead babies.

Geomy

Sarky wrote: »

You'll mind them once the cultural Catholics are so few that they feel like they're backed into a corner and they resort to nastier and nastier measures to try and stay in the limelight. Think Youth Defence but obsessed with things besides dead babies.

How do you know this is going to happen ?

kylith

ninja900 wrote: »

It is rather ironic that the most frequent massgoers in Ireland, little oul' wans, are also among the most racist... how will they cope with the inner conflict???

"Jaysus, isn't it great? Them darkies have been saved from their heathen sinfulness and are coming to Ireland in gratitude for us sending them the missions."

Hotblack Desiato

"Penny for the white babies?"

Hotblack Desiato

Sarky wrote: »

You'll mind them once the cultural Catholics are so few that they feel like they're backed into a corner and they resort to nastier and nastier measures to try and stay in the limelight. Think Youth Defence but obsessed with things besides dead babies.

Not the cultural catholics but the true believers.
We can already see this happening.
Imagine thousands of John Waters types out there :eek:

recedite

It can be quite funny to hear these imported priests talking about how vibrant they all are, and how they can turn around "the church" in Ireland which has become old and stale. Even some of the older Irish priests seem to believe it.

Its like watching a slow train crash when the brakes have failed, and this young guy runs up and grabs hold of the train, thinking he can stop it with his bare hands.
The driver is thinking WTF you loon, ah well we've nothing to lose now, you might as well give it a try, sonny.

Sarky

Geomy wrote: »

How do you know this is going to happen ?

Because it's already beginning.

lazygal

I still see the hatches, matches and dispatches crowd remaining strong. The majority of my peers have church weddings, do baptism, communions and I've never been to a non church funeral. I wonder will a lack of priests have any effects, because the scandals and not believing any teachings don't seem to.

swampgas

lazygal wrote: »

I still see the hatches, matches and dispatches crowd remaining strong. The majority of my peers have church weddings, do baptism, communions and I've never been to a non church funeral. I wonder will a lack of priests have any effects, because the scandals and not believing any teachings don't seem to.

People like their rituals, so it might depend if newer rituals can replace the current RC ones.

It will be interesting to see if non-church alternatives gain popularity, for example registry office weddings or non-church weddings like they have in the UK, where the registrar can travel to an approved location. Also, if cremation gains popularity, that helps to break the link to the church funeral.

I suspect a big urban / rural divide could emerge though.

lazygal

I have friends who attend mass every time they visit their parents. It actually wouldn't be acceptable to miss it, and these are adults who've been living away from 'home' for years. I know my non urban relatives' first non church wedding was mine, and some of them couldn't get their heads around a wedding that wasn't in a church. I don't see that changing for a looooooong time.

bumper234

Sadly for those of us who are sane enough to see through the drivel that is the bible and sensible enough not to listen to some kiddy fiddler tell us how we are going to hell (oh the ironing) the catholic church knew what the future held and years ago got its size 9 sandals into Africa. This is where the next batch of money will come from for the church and as one poster already stated they will keep moving the goalposts (follow the pope on twitter for 100 or whatever years off purgatory!) and sucking the scared needy and downright guillable into their nest of evil.

swampgas

lazygal wrote: »

I have friends who attend mass every time they visit their parents. It actually wouldn't be acceptable to miss it, and these are adults who've been living away from 'home' for years.

One of my definitions of a grown-up: someone who doesn't let their parents decide how they live their life. Or maybe I'm just naturally confrontational

I know my non urban relatives' first non church wedding was mine, and some of them couldn't get their heads around a wedding that wasn't in a church. I don't see that changing for a looooooong time.

What's your definition of a long time - one generation, say about 20-30 years? Or longer? Given the changes in the last 30 years, I'd be slow to make predictions either way.

Animord

Akrasia wrote: »

Nobody under the age of 50 believes any of the doctrines of the church anymore.

I wish this were true, but I really don't think it is. I live and work in a rural area and every single one of the people I work with (10) is well under 50, 9 are married and live away from home and ALL of them attend mass regularly and believe in the whole shebang.

One of them told me recently that the first thing that he does on holiday is check out where the RC church is and then where the bars are. Another one went to a priest to get healed from a long term illness about 18 months ago. He swears blind that it totally worked, but the fact that he still has to go to hospital once a month for blood transfusions would raise questions for me. Not apparently for him though.

I think we have a long way to go before the church is dead in this country.

fisgon

Animord wrote: »

I think we have a long way to go before the church is dead in this country.

I agree. It is important not to underestimate human beings' capacity for believing nonsense, if it makes them feel better. Religion is like a cockroach, it actually thrives the worse things are in reality for people. Look at Islam, fifty years ago Islam was on the back foot in the Arab world, not nearly as strong as it is now.

Catholicism hasn't gone away, you know. It is important that those of us who see it as a toxic force in society don't let our guard down.

lazygal

swampgas wrote: »

One of my definitions of a grown-up: someone who doesn't let their parents decide how they live their life. Or maybe I'm just naturally confrontational


What's your definition of a long time - one generation, say about 20-30 years? Or longer? Given the changes in the last 30 years, I'd be slow to make predictions either way.

I can't see the cultural catholic brigade in huge decline TBH. We know enough of our peers who only do baptisms to please parents, then do communions etc, again because of pressure from family or fear of the children being left out. At least half the weddings we've gone to have had one atheist partner who's done count me out giving in, then giving in on baptisms and so it goes. It remains to be seen whether that cohort will apply pressure to their children for weddings etc in 20 or 30 years' time. I often get a surprised look from my contemporaries when we mention we've not done a baptism, generally followed up with 'what about schools'. Its still more normal to opt in than opt out, especially when you've children, in our experience.

Galvasean

That's true. There won't be any large decline in ''Cultural Catholocism" until the church's influence in primary schools is properly severed.

wretcheddomain

The majority of hard-line Catholics, I would assume, are of the upper-middle-aged to geriatric bracket of society. When they die off, alongside their diabolical socially repressive opinions, then the youth of today will fill that 'gap' as it were with fresher socially progressive views. This cycle will repeat until Catholicism becomes a permanent vestige of this society, although judging from statistics and as Akrasia has hitherto stated, there may not necessarily be that many 'cycles' left until the poisonous legacy of this toxic cult is finally left behind us.

goose2005

lazygal wrote: »

I can't see the cultural catholic brigade in huge decline TBH. We know enough of our peers who only do baptisms to please parents, then do communions etc, again because of pressure from family or fear of the children being left out. At least half the weddings we've gone to have had one atheist partner who's done count me out giving in, then giving in on baptisms and so it goes. It remains to be seen whether that cohort will apply pressure to their children for weddings etc in 20 or 30 years' time. I often get a surprised look from my contemporaries when we mention we've not done a baptism, generally followed up with 'what about schools'. Its still more normal to opt in than opt out, especially when you've children, in our experience.

Even in the past this was largely the case, there were very few who were truly devout, Irish Catholicism was always a mile wide and an inch deep, and more of a community identifier than anything to do with theology. Even in the 50s it was noted that emigrants to Britain almost always stopped attending Mass.

lazygal

goose2005 wrote: »

Even in the past this was largely the case, there were very few who were truly devout, Irish Catholicism was always a mile wide and an inch deep, and more of a community identifier than anything to do with theology. Even in the 50s it was noted that emigrants to Britain almost always stopped attending Mass.

They still fill the churches for rituals though. Weddings and funerals are still mainly church centred, and we're in a minority not doing baptism, communion and confirmation among the parents we know. There's not a lot of decline I can see with the cultural catholic cohort, and I don't know if a lack of priests in future will affect this.

Akrasia

The churches are filled for rituals because of respect for the people getting married/buried/confirmed/baptised etc not out of respect for the church.

Most people hate the church part of these things and only endure them out of a sense of obligation to their family/friends.

I would not be surprised at all if a major cultural shift took place where within one generation, the practice of holding these religious rituals was replaced with secular alternatives.

Major culture shifts tend to happen really fast

ThunderZtorm

Coming from a very secular country, I'll say this:

Religion might go away, people won't go to church and such, but the basic rituals will stay. In Denmark, we still do baptisms and church weddings and burials despite nobody actually believing in any of it at this point.

The romantic notion of a proper church wedding is too deeply embedded in the hearts and minds of many women :P

So yeah, religion might lose it's status as an important part of society as such, but a lot of the rituals/ceremonies will remain for the forseeable future.

krudler

wretcheddomain wrote: »

The majority of hard-line Catholics, I would assume, are of the upper-middle-aged to geriatric bracket of society. When they die off, alongside their diabolical socially repressive opinions, then the youth of today will fill that 'gap' as it were with fresher socially progressive views. This cycle will repeat until Catholicism becomes a permanent vestige of this society, although judging from statistics and as Akrasia has hitherto stated, there may not necessarily be that many 'cycles' left until the poisonous legacy of this toxic cult is finally left behind us.

You'd actually be amazed how many young people regularly go to mass, I know someone who's 25, goes every week and has views on things like divorce, abortion and gheys that you wouldn't hear coming out of a 70 year old dyed in the wool catholic. We just agree to disagree on anything religion based ( mostly because she can't answer anything I put to her :pac: )

lazygal

Akrasia wrote: »

The churches are filled for rituals because of respect for the people getting married/buried/confirmed/baptised etc not out of respect for the church.

Most people hate the church part of these things and only endure them out of a sense of obligation to their family/friends.

I would not be surprised at all if a major cultural shift took place where within one generation, the practice of holding these religious rituals was replaced with secular alternatives.

Major culture shifts tend to happen really fast

Hmm that's not really our experience. As I've said, we've been to enough weddings of 'atheists' at this stage, have seen enough friends with no interest in the church baptise children and do the communion thing to make us think there's very little decline in the 'big events' of Catholicism. People might hate going, and I've heard them complain, but they have either had the church wedding or plan on doing so, in some cases because of family pressure but in others because its a handier option that thinking of alternatives. I was the very first of my friends to have a non church wedding and I can count on one hand the number of non-baptised children I know of, and I'm not in a rural, conservative area.

I do think maybe my generation of parents might not have the same desire for church rituals, but I also know people just default to them - like the church funeral, there's never been a non church funeral in our circles, ever. Even when a relatively young avowed atheist friend of ours died, the full Catholic funeral rites were what was done.



ETA - I hate pulling out the parenting card, but really becoming a parent has opened my eyes to how strong the cultural catholic thing still is when people who aren't married in the eyes of the church, single parents etc get their children baptized, or those who give out about the church are the first to let the grannies organise the baptisms. School enrolment can't be the only reason for this in areas where getting into school doesn't depend on a baptism cert, and certainly given that most go on to do communions and confirmations means there's a constant stream of catholics on the go.

krudler

lazygal wrote: »

I do think maybe my generation of parents might not have the same desire for church rituals, but I also know people just default to them - like the church funeral, there's never been a non church funeral in our circles, ever. Even when a relatively young avowed atheist friend of ours died, the full Catholic funeral rites were what was done.

That's something I must get around to putting in writing or telling my parents or friends about just in case, that I don't want a Catholic funeral, the thoughts of some priest who's never met me telling people how great I was makes me shudder.

lazygal

krudler wrote: »

That's something I must get around to putting in writing or telling my parents or friends about just in case, that I don't want a Catholic funeral, the thoughts of some priest who's never met me telling people how great I was makes me shudder.

This guy had done exactly that. Which was mentioned by the priest in his sermon, as in thanks be to god his parents did the 'right thing' in having a church funeral. But mammy and daddy had the bells and whistles, regardless.

krudler

lazygal wrote: »

This guy had done exactly that. Which was mentioned by the priest in his sermon, as in thanks be to god his parents did the 'right thing' in having a church funeral. But mammy and daddy had the bells and whistles, regardless.

Grrr, that annoys me, surely it should be the person's wishes respected. There's an air of "just in case" about Catholicism in this country that irks me. The amount of people who baptise their kids "just in case" Cos that's the right message, double down and cover your bases just in case holy god does have it in for unbaptised babies after all.

Hotblack Desiato

That sort of dick move with the funeral is why the likes of countmeout was so important.
Shame I missed the boat :mad:

lazygal

The guy had done count me out, as the priest mentioned. Look at when Maeve Binchy died, a self described atheist who was given a full Catholic send off and no one seemed to think it odd or inappropriate. I've been at church weddings where the couple did count me out. I've known atheists agree to be godparents and renounce Satan. I don't know why this type of hypocrisy is tolerated, but it is.

Hotblack Desiato

FFS that's despicable. He'd already expressed his wishes, and renounced this sick organisation, and they still got their claws into his corpse.

Is there any depth to which this bunch won't stoop?

krudler

lazygal wrote: »

The guy had done count me out, as the priest mentioned. Look at when Maeve Binchy died, a self described atheist who was given a full Catholic send off and no one seemed to think it odd or inappropriate. I've been at church weddings where the couple did count me out. I've known atheists agree to be godparents and renounce Satan. I don't know why this type of hypocrisy is tolerated, but it is.

I'm my nephew's godparent but I did that back in 2003, not a hope I'd do it now, although it carries the same weight as saying you renounce Voldemort or Darth Vader and all their teachings.

lazygal

ninja900 wrote: »

FFS that's despicable. He'd already expressed his wishes, and renounced this sick organisation, and they still got their claws into his corpse.

Is there any depth to which this bunch won't stoop?

When your parents seek the opposite of what you told them in life, it says a lot. I also wonder if the church ever refuses a funeral to parents in this situation or where its known the deceased has rejected the church. I'm pretty jaded about most people's attitudes to religion in Ireland after the spate of religious ceremonies we've been to in recent years.

recedite

Suppose you knew you were dying, and you knew it would give great comfort to your next of kin to have a religious funeral.
It would be a generous gesture to allow them to get their wish, after all when you're dead you don't really care, and the focus at that stage should be on looking after the living.
But a gesture like that has to be freely given. If it is just taken, then it has no value, and it disrespects the dead.

Manach

We are here, not going any where and given the lack of any coherent mindset beyond an infantile anti-Catholic agenda will be outlasting this in-hock state.

lazygal

Manach wrote: »

We are here, not going any where and given the lack of any coherent mindset beyond an infantile anti-Catholic agenda will be outlasting this in-hock state.

How Christian of you.

krudler

recedite wrote: »

Suppose you knew you were dying, and you knew it would give great comfort to your next of kin to have a religious funeral.
It would be a generous gesture to allow them to get their wish, after all when you're dead you don't really care, and the focus at that stage should be on looking after the living.
But a gesture like that has to be freely given. If it is just taken, then it has no value, and it disrespects the dead.

and Irish people have a big thing about this, even people who are complete pricks in life get a good sendoff, yet they'd happily ignore your wishes, give me a wake if ye want, have a laugh and get langers but dont give me a catholic burial.

Turtwig

Manach wrote: »

We are here, not going any where and given the lack of any coherent mindset beyond an infantile anti-Catholic agenda will be outlasting this in-hock state.

Infantile? Catholicism has its flaws, most Catholics I know will openly admit that. Many that delve into your core ideology and the structure of the church won't like it. The church's authoritarian structure, the requirement of Catholics to obey the Church Magisterium on every spiritual matter regardless of their own personal opinion. It's also not a very attractive ideology to the current generation in the sense of personal autonomies, liberty and privacy. There's a lot of cracks and the ideology isn't attracting new blood. The infantile anti-Catholic agenda isn't the reason for the religion's struggles in Ireland. It's a nice scapegoat to have though. Probably best to lose it if you wish to save your numbers.