Sonny Liston

Speisekarte

I watched Sonny Liston on espn classic a few days ago against Floyd Patterson and Ali. Just curious really where people would rate him in the all time best heavyweight list. He seemed to be past his best by the time he faced Ali.

walshb

Speisekarte wrote: »

I watched Sonny Liston on espn classic a few days ago against Floyd Patterson and Ali. Just curious really where people would eat him in the all time best heavyweight list. He seemed to be past his best by the time he faced Ali.

I assume you mean rate him, not eat him?

For his size, and at his best I think he was fundamentally and technically very sound. Strong as an ox, very durable, took a great shot and banged so heavy off both wings. p4p he was a beast.

terrymccarthy05

Herny Cooper said he would not walk down the same road as Liston.

cowzerp

Top 30 maybe, Would struggle to be top 5 boxer in this day and age, Frank Bruno for example would have smashed him all over the place.

Maravilla33

I'd have him in and around the top 10, just outside it more often than not.

Physically he was a bit of a freak. 18 inch neck an 84 inch reach and absolutely giant hands. A lot of people think he was just a bruiser but actually had quite well rounded boxing skills possessing one of the best jabs ever seen among the big me.

He was past his best vs Ali and there will always be question marks as to how on the level those fights were. I think 'The greatest' still beats him but it would be interesting if they met at Sonny's best.

All in all he was a very good and destructive HW who is often under rated imo.

MickFleetwood

Outside the top ten, probably just on the cusp of it. Dominant but not in an exceptionally strong era. Wasted an ATG twice in a round apiece and dominated a decent enough scene.

Would batter the likes of Fury, Price, Thompson, etc. Only fighters around today I see beating him would be the Klitschko brothers (not the present Vitali who seems to be dramatically slowing down mind) and maybe Haye, if he can get off with his best shots first. Even at that I reckon Liston could get to him and stop him if he survives an early onslaught.

MickFleetwood

cowzerp wrote: »

Top 30 maybe, Would struggle to be top 5 boxer in this day and age, Frank Bruno for example would have smashed him all over the place.

Please tell me you're joking with the Bruno comment. Frank, as much as I'm sure we all love him, was very much an average titleholder who lost every time he stepped up to fight the best. Gave Lewis some hassle but ultimately got stopped. Destroyed by Tyson twice. KO'd by Bonecrusher Smith. TKO'd by a past it Tim Witherspoon.

Had bad stamina issues and not the most durable of men. Saying Bruno would "smash him all over the place" is just.... Weird, given what we know of both men.

Maravilla33

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Please tell me you're joking with the Bruno comment. Frank, as much as I'm sure we all love him, was very much an average titleholder who lost every time he stepped up to fight the best. Gave Lewis some hassle but ultimately got stopped. Destroyed by Tyson twice. KO'd by Bonecrusher Smith. TKO'd by a past it Tim Witherspoon.

Had bad stamina issues and not the most durable of men. Saying Bruno would "smash him all over the place" is just.... Weird, given what we know of both men.

Had this same argument a good while ago and reluctant to start it again :eek: but some of the lads on here seem to think all modern day fighters are all monsters compared to their older counterparts.

Sam Peter was another who would smash him. I don't know in what world but hey..

cowzerp

I'm not joking at all, Bruno would destroy Liston

And so would Sam peter for that matter.

MickFleetwood

cowzerp wrote: »

I'm not joking at all, Bruno would destroy Liston

And so would Sam peter for that matter.

How did you come to this conclusion given what we know of both fighters?

One was a dominant, great champion. The other held a title but got knocked out by almost every top fighter he faced. One was fairly durable outside of being stopped past his prime, the other got smashed to pieces multiple times, often by so-so fighters. One possessed a great arsenal and plenty of skill, the other was a basic, slow, bruiser.

Don't even get me started on the completely average and amateurish Peter.

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

(not the present Vitali who seems to be dramatically slowing down mind) and maybe Haye, if he can get off with his best shots first. Even at that I reckon Liston could get to him and stop him if he survives an early onslaught.

Liston is a desperate bad match for Haye. He takes a great shot and has very good power. Haye will run, be slippy, duck and dive, but he will be caught by Liston's array of shots and stopped within 6 rds.

walshb

As to Liston and Bruno. Liston is far too rounded for Bruno. Frank has a KO chance, but other than that he gets beaten convincingly. 8-10 rds tops for Frank. Frank took a good shot, but his stamina and lack of recuperative ability will see Liston dominate from the 5th rd on. Liston even has a speed advantage in this one.

MickFleetwood

walshb wrote: »

Liston is a desperate bad match for Haye. He takes a great shot and has very good power. Haye will run, be slippy, duck and dive, but he will be caught by Liston's array of shots and stopped within 6 rds.

Probably the most likely scenario. Hard to imagine Haye going on the offensive either.

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Probably the most likely scenario. Hard to imagine Haye going on the offensive either.

And forgetting skills and speed etc, I believe physical strength is the key to Liston beating Haye. Haye has a heavy shot, but if Sonny can take it I see him walking Haye down.

cowzerp

MickFleetwood wrote: »

How did you come to this conclusion given what we know of both fighters?

One was a dominant, great champion. The other held a title but got knocked out by almost every top fighter he faced. One was fairly durable outside of being stopped past his prime, the other got smashed to pieces multiple times, often by so-so fighters. One possessed a great arsenal and plenty of skill, the other was a basic, slow, bruiser.

Don't even get me started on the completely average and amateurish Peter.

Dominant in a time of pure craap, Bruno was bigger, more powerful and lost to much better opposition than Liston-Bruno had a better jab and that was Listons best weapon

I'd have no doubt Bruno would KO him and probably within 1-2 rounds.

MickFleetwood

cowzerp wrote: »

Dominant in a time of pure craap

Oh yeah? And who were the great fighters that Bruno beat? Oliver McCall? Don't make me laugh.

Bruno was bigger, more powerful and lost to much better opposition than Liston

So Bonecrusher Smith and a worn-out Witherspoon are "much better" than Liston?

Bruno had a better jab and that was Listons best weapon

You are absolutely mad if you believe what you're writing.

I'd have no doubt Bruno would KO him and probably within 1-2 rounds.

Laughable.

MickFleetwood

I mean, is being dominant in an era (which also obviously wasn't "pure crap" if you knew anything about it) worse than being flattened by all the top fighters in a good era?

Patterson x2, Machen, Folley, Harris, Williams x2, Valdes, DeJohn, etc. Versus McCall, Coetzer and Coetzee.

Tell me cowzerp, which fighter beat the "pure crap" opponents?

sxt

Cleveland Williams is the Detonay Wilder of the 60s , a "bum slayer".

Patterson was a natural middle weight who moved up to "heavyweight" .I can't see the weights on boxrec anymore but I think his fighting weight at "heavyweight" was around 185- 190 ilbs. He was too small

Machen was skillful boxer , his fighting weight was around 190 ilbs as well. He fought with one arm against Sonny Liston . A very even contest, with machen skills making Liston look very ordinary. Liston looks a completely embarassed and defeated man at the end of the fight

When Sonny liston fought Ali , it was actuallyone of the few times in his career he fought an opponent that was as big as him. I think Ali was a bout 212 ilbs. Of course Ali wasn't just a big strong guy, he was was an elite super skillful and athlethic guy. The first modern heavyweight. Sonny liston quit on his stool that night. He was facing a boxer who raised the bar for heavyweight boxing .End of an era and the beginning of a new one

MickFleetwood

sxt wrote: »

Cleveland Williams is the Detonay Wilder of the 60s , a "bum slayer".

A highly rated, feared contender. Not a guy who fought absolute wasters time and time again. Fought Terrell to a split-decision, and TKO'd him. Combated Machen to a draw. Although not an elite fighter he was clearly competent against Liston and beat some good, solid opponents. Nothing like Wilder.

Patterson was a natural middle weight who moved up to "heavyweight" .I can't see the weights on boxrec anymore but I think his fighting weight at "heavyweight" was around 190 ilbs. He was too small

Yes, he fought at middleweight (beat some very good fighters also) but obviously not a natural middleweight, standing at 6'0 and able to take on elite heavyweights and win world heavyweight championships. What natural middleweight could do that? Just because he once fought there doesn't make him a natural middleweight, obviously.

Machen was skillful boxer , his fighting weight was around 190 ilbs as well. He fought with one arm against Sonny Liston . A very even contest, with machen skills making Liston look very ordinary. Liston looks a completely embarassed and defeated man at the end of the fight

Yes, Machen was very good, certainly superior to anybody Bruno ever beat.

When Sonny liston fought Ali , it was actuallyone of the few times in his career he fought an opponent that was as big as him. I think Ali was a bout 212 ilbs. Of course Ali wasn't just a big strong guy, he was was an elite super skillful and athlethic guy. The first modern heavyweight. Sonny liston quit on his stool that night. He was facing a boxer who raised the bar for heavyweight boxing

When Liston fought Ali he was worn and over the hill. Not an excuse, as he probably would have clearly lost to Ali regardless. Just saying, judging him on that fight alone is ridiculous.

Also, Joe Louis I feel could be considered the first "modern" heavyweight (that is a fighter who could and would be competitive, if not consistently victorious against the best in each era) given his incredible punching skill and technique. He was probably the best combination puncher and finisher to ever live, had amazing balance, a punishing jab, fast hands, etc. Truly a brilliant champion.

Maravilla33

Sxt seems to have a little piece learned off about Liston. About how he struggled with little Eddie Machen in a fight he won well on all 3 cards despite getting 3 points deducted. How is that struggling?

I'm surprised he hasn't posted his little 10 minute video of the fight. The fight went 12 rounds which in most ppls maths is 36 minutes. So I dunno how someone can pass judgement having seen a little over a quarter of the fight? Explain the scorecards if he struggled so badly?

The Sam Peter and Bruno stuff is embarrassing to be honest. I wrote an article ages ago On another forum on how Liston would beat Lennox Lewis. Lennox actually posted it on his Twitter saying it was an interesting fight and he's leagues above the two boys above. I've since changed my mind and think Lewis beats Liston more often than not provided he doesn't get careless.

Maravilla33

Agree with the Louis comments but think Liston matches up to the modern guys a little better due to his physical dimensions.

Still Louis was a great fighter. Such a big and accurate puncher. Nailed on top 5 HW.

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Also, Joe Louis I feel could be considered the first "modern" heavyweight (that is a fighter who could and would be competitive, if not consistently victorious against the best in each era) given his incredible punching skill and technique. He was probably the best combination puncher and finisher to ever live, had amazing balance, a punishing jab, fast hands, etc. Truly a brilliant champion.

Incredible punching skills and delivery no doubt, but the guy could be nailed and badly hurt. Too many HW for my liking are far too dangerous for him. That includes non ATGs thru the years. Louis wasn't all that big, and IMO he will not absorb shots from men like Ruddock, Whiterspoon, Shavers, Holmes, Cooney, Bowe, Holyfield, Liston, Dokes, Bonecrusher, Tucker, either klit, Tua et al.

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Yes, he fought at middleweight (beat some very good fighters also) but obviously not a natural middleweight, standing at 6'0 and able to take on elite heavyweights and win world heavyweight championships. What natural middleweight could do that? Just because he once fought there doesn't make him a natural middleweight, obviously.
.

James Toney could do that.

walshb

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Agree with the Louis comments but think Liston matches up to the modern guys a little better due to his physical dimensions.
.

Spot on.

megadodge

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Yes, he fought at middleweight (beat some very good fighters also) but obviously not a natural middleweight, standing at 6'0 and able to take on elite heavyweights and win world heavyweight championships. What natural middleweight could do that? Just because he once fought there doesn't make him a natural middleweight, obviously.

I was going to stay out of this, but I couldn't let you away with that one.

What elite heavyweight did Floyd Patterson ever take on...... and beat?

MickFleetwood

walshb wrote: »

James Toney could do that.

Never really was a natural middleweight though was he? He was drained in his prime at SMW versus Roy Jones.

MickFleetwood

megadodge wrote: »

I was going to stay out of this, but I couldn't let you away with that one.

What elite heavyweight did Floyd Patterson ever take on...... and beat?

Quarry, (I and most others felt one of their fights was a robbery) Machen, Johansson, and Moore were all considered "elite" at the time.

megadodge

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Quarry, (I and most others felt one of their fights was a robbery) Machen, Johansson, and Moore were all considered "elite" at the time.

Quarry and Machen were good contenders. Nothing more.

Johansson was only known because he beat.... Patterson! He never beat an elite fighter either.

Archie is one of my all-time favourites, but was a 40 year old (at least) ex-middleweight himself when he fought Patterson.

Floyd Patterson never beat an elite heavy.

Patterson was one of the poorer heavy champs in history and was really only an averge-sized light heavy. I actually think he could have been an ATG light-heavy (or super-middle nowadays) if he boxed there, but his manager (Cus D'Amato) had him in the heavy division for the moola only and made sure he avoided the really dangerous boys for as long as he could. A world heavyweight champion defending his title against somebody making their debut!! And getting floored by him!! Come on.

MickFleetwood

megadodge wrote: »

Quarry and Machen were good contenders. Nothing more.

Johansson was only known because he beat.... Patterson! He never beat an elite fighter either.

Archie is one of my all-time favourites, but was a 40 year old (at least) ex-middleweight himself when he fought Patterson.

Floyd Patterson never beat an elite heavy.

Patterson was one of the poorer heavy champs in history and was really only an averge-sized light heavy. I actually think he could have been an ATG light-heavy (or super-middle nowadays) if he boxed there, but his manager (Cus D'Amato) had him in the heavy division for the moola only and made sure he avoided the really dangerous boys for as long as he could. A world heavyweight champion defending his title against somebody making their debut!! And getting floored by him!! Come on.

Quarry, Machen, Moore and Johansson were all considered the elite fighters of the day, and Patterson beat them.

The same way the elite opponents, say, Wladimir Klitschko has fought are Haye and Byrd, soon to be Povetkin. They're not immense fighters, one was a former cruiserweight and the other a former super-middleweight. Y'know, Patterson and Byrd have almost the exact same dimensions.

You asked me to name the elite that he fought, I named them. I can do no more. Whether you choose to be impressed with them or not is another thing.

megadodge

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Quarry, Machen, Moore and Johansson were all considered the elite fighters of the day, and Patterson beat them.

The same way the elite opponents, say, Wladimir Klitschko has fought are Haye and Byrd, soon to be Povetkin. They're not immense fighters, one was a former cruiserweight and the other a former super-middleweight. Y'know, Patterson and Byrd have almost the exact same dimensions.

You asked me to name the elite that he fought, I named them. I can do no more. Whether you choose to be impressed with them or not is another thing.

The reason I highlighted and underlined the word elite was because I was trying to stress that those you mention were just not that. It was an extremely weak era and they were the best of a bad lot. Then when a genuinely elite boxer came along (Liston) look what happened. Ditto with Ali.

In the overall scheme of things Patterson was a poor heavyweight champion. The poor opponents argument is used against Vlad all the time, I don't see why we should change tune when talking of the older champs.

MickFleetwood

megadodge wrote: »

The reason I highlighted and underlined the word elite was because I was trying to stress that those you mention were just not that. It was an extremely weak era and they were the best of a bad lot. Then when a genuinely elite boxer came along (Liston) look what happened. Ditto with Ali.

In the overall scheme of things Patterson was a poor heavyweight champion. The poor opponents argument is used against Vlad all the time, I don't see why we should change tune when talking of the older champs.

I'm not changing the tune at all, and I recognize that Patterson wasn't one of the best heavyweight champions. I'd still consider him a top 20 heavyweight of all-time, albeit on the lower end of the spectrum.

Saying those fighters were not elite is simply intellectual dishonesty. They were the among the best heavyweights on the planet when Patterson fought them, and rated at/near the top. Moore was absolutely elite, as was Machen. Johansson was a championship-level fighter (anybody who knocks out the reigning undisputed heavyweight champion is an elite fighter). Quarry was probably the best of the 70's crop outside of the top four that are Ali, Frazier, Foreman and Norton.

Dick phelan

Floyd Patterson wasnt a top 20 heavyweight in my view he wouldnt be in the top 3 or 4 today, let alone all the old atg, he simply wasnt a heavyweight really as someone said he would have been a great LHW any of the decent big guys would beat Floyd he just hadnt the size and also had a glass jaw

Maravilla33

Agree that Patterson could have been an Atg light heavy and thats saying something as that division is stacked.

If Liston was the slow plodding bruiser that some let on he was then Patterson would have been his worst nightmare. Fact is he wasn't and it was 2 easy nights work for him. Give Floyd, Ali's chin and it would be a good fight.

megadodge

MickFleetwood wrote: »

I'm not changing the tune at all, and I recognize that Patterson wasn't one of the best heavyweight champions. I'd still consider him a top 20 heavyweight of all-time, albeit on the lower end of the spectrum.

Saying those fighters were not elite is simply intellectual dishonesty. They were the among the best heavyweights on the planet when Patterson fought them, and rated at/near the top. Moore was absolutely elite, as was Machen. Johansson was a championship-level fighter (anybody who knocks out the reigning undisputed heavyweight champion is an elite fighter). Quarry was probably the best of the 70's crop outside of the top four that are Ali, Frazier, Foreman and Norton.

The highlighted piece is exactly my point. Those guys were elite, Quarry wasn't. That's why he lost to them. He certainly was a good contender, but not elite.

Maybe this is just semantics on both our parts, but Floyd Patterson never beat what I would regard as a Top 30-40 ATG heavweight. I wouln't have him remotely close to the Top 20. He's a geuine case of a former champ who would have next to no chance against modern heavies, or even the better cruisers.

cowzerp

So am i really the only 1 here that thinks Bruno would have had Liston?
Bruno short clip

Liston Short clip, skip the training bit, 1st min

Maravilla33

cowzerp wrote: »

So am i really the only 1 here that thinks Bruno would have had Liston?

He's just too fragile. Plus look how intimidated he was by Tyson. Liston was every bit as intimidating back in the day. Now I'm not comparing Liston and Tyson mainly pointing out that Frank could be intimidated. Mainly the fragile bit though.

I'd say he'd have some joy in the early rounds but once he takes a few shots its good night.

cowzerp

Maravilla33 wrote: »

He's just too fragile. Plus look how intimidated he was by Tyson. Liston was every bit as intimidating back in the day. Now I'm not comparing Liston and Tyson mainly pointing out that Frank could be intimidated. Mainly the fragile bit though.

I'd say he'd have some joy in the early rounds but once he takes a few shots its good night.

Compared to who Liston faced Bruno would be an absolute monster, Liston could be the 1 who'd feel the fear-In fairness to Bruno he lost to Tyson, Lewis etc, Liston wouldn't have a hope with them lads.

Maravilla33

cowzerp wrote: »

Compared to who Liston faced Bruno would be an absolute monster, Liston could be the 1 who'd feel the fear-In fairness to Bruno he lost to Tyson, Lewis etc, Liston wouldn't have a hope with them lads.

Monster with a brittle chin and little self belief.

Maravilla33

Plus Liston would have fought a few with similar dimensions to Frank. Chuck Wepner was a big unit and was stopped by an over the hill Liston. I've no doubt that a Vitali Klitschko would be a nightmare for Liston. Big, skilled and with a granite chin. Bruno was big although not huge, pretty skilled himself but fragile. That's the key here. He was stooped by every big puncher he faced. Liston would be no different.

cowzerp

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Monster with a brittle chin and little self belief.

How brittle his chin was is over hyped, He mostly got wobbled and stopped on his feet, Also not many chins where going to take what Tyson and Lewis hit him with, his losses to Witherspoon and Bonecrusher smith where 10th and 11th round so he wasn't blown out-Tyson and Lewis are a different story, and in fairness he was beating Lewis fairly well.

Maravilla33

cowzerp wrote: »

How brittle his chin was is over hyped, He mostly got wobbled and stopped on his feet, Also not many chins where going to take what Tyson and Lewis hit him with, his losses to Witherspoon and Bonecrusher smith where 10th and 11th round so he wasn't blown out-Tyson and Lewis are a different story, and in fairness he was beating Lewis fairly well.

Ok you're still agreeing he was fragile. He mightn't have been knocked out cold all the time but was often rocked and affected by big shots. Liston was a big puncher. His jab would wobble Frank.

Like I said I think he would do ok in the first few rounds. Like you say he was out jabbing & out boxing Lennox for a spell. Its just he could be easily hurt and didn't have the instinct/sense to survive..

cowzerp

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Ok you're still agreeing he was fragile. He mightn't have been knocked out cold all the time but was often rocked and affected by big shots. Liston was a big puncher. His jab would wobble Frank.

Like I said I think he would do ok in the first few rounds. Like you say he was out jabbing & out boxing Lennox for a spell. Its just he could be easily hurt and didn't have the instinct/sense to survive..

I think Liston was way to slow and frank was a better version of Sonny, I also think the way Liston got ko'd by Ali was proper fragile so Bruno would ko him easily.

walshb

I would back Liston over Frank, but I feel Bruno is being sold a little short here. Liston would eventually take over later rds and probably force a late stoppage, but Bruno would have many moments of success.

Big Davey

I think Oliver McCall took a dive against Bruno. Between the corrupt don king and mccalls drug issues I recon he took a dive for money. Frank was way underestimated though strong, and a very good chin he finished on his feet all the time not chinny at all in my opinion also probably the first man to really rock Tyson if Bruno had more killer instinct and moved in for the kill he could have beaten Tyson the first time around, " what an uppercut"

walshb

Big Davey wrote: »

" what an uppercut"

Was it not a left hook in the first round that rocked Mike?

And, it rocked Mike for a millisecond. Even with a killer instinct it's still a very tough ask to take a peak Tyson out that early.

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Never really was a natural middleweight though was he? He was drained in his prime at SMW versus Roy Jones.

That I agree with, but still, very comparable to Floyd size wise. Floyd was a middle aged 17/18. I have absolute no doubt that Toney does every bit as good against any Patterson foe than did Patterson. Plus he never gets destroyed by Liston. And, I would even say that with Toney weighing as a LHW.

Big Davey

walshb wrote: »

Was it not a left hook in the first round that rocked Mike?

And, it rocked Mike for a millisecond. Even with a killer instinct it's still a very tough ask to take a peak Tyson out that early.

I thought it was an uppercut later on :-) will try to find it on you tube.

walshb

Big Davey wrote: »

I thought it was an uppercut later on :-) will try to find it on you tube.

Yes, that was just before the stoppage. It was a lovely shot, but it lacked the speed and commitment. Frank was so tired at that stage. It was thrown very lazily. Just goes to show how naturally heavy handed Bruno was.

Big Davey

walshb wrote: »

Yes, that was just before the stoppage. It was a lovely shot, but it lacked the speed and commitment. Frank was so tired at that stage. It was thrown very lazily. Just goes to show how naturally heavy handed Bruno was.

It still rocked him a bit though :-) I would have liked to have seen Bruno believe in himself a bit more.

walshb

Big Davey wrote: »

It still rocked him a bit though :-) I would have liked to have seen Bruno believe in himself a bit more.

I am sure it did. Bruno was a big and strong man. But looking at the bigger picture, Bruno just didn't possess the speed and punch combinations needed when meeting the real elite men. Very little to do with belief or confidence. He fought Tyson in a determined and committed fashion. He just wasn't up to it against the best.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

I am sure it did. Bruno was a big and strong man. But looking at the bigger picture, Bruno just didn't possess the speed and punch combinations needed when meeting the real elite men. Very little to do with belief or confidence. He fought Tyson in a determined and committed fashion. He just wasn't up to it against the best.

This is my point, he was faster than Liston and bigger and stronger, Liston was a horse of a man for his day and technically good for those times, his jab was his best weapon ând even this is superior in frank.

In man v man Liston was not elite, at his time he was, that time simply was weak and just before major improvements in boxing