The future at Tighthead

JagerScout

Tighthead Prop has been a massive problem for Irish rugby for the last decade. The invaluable and unbreakable John Hayes was able to adequately cover up this problem for his long Irish career and fortunately Mike Ross emerged as Hayes came to the end of his career. Mike Ross was however discarded by Munster and had to spend time at Harlequins before he moved back to Leinster and finally became an option for the national team. Ross is now winding down on his career, he turns 34 this season, and Ireland have no obvious successor to him at this point. Who will be that player? First lets look at the options currently playing in Ireland.

At Leinster, the current IQ'd first team squad members who are viable options at Tighthead Prop are:
Mike Ross(33, turns 34 midseason)
Michael Bent(27, turns 28 at the end of the season)
Martin Moore(22, turns 23 near the end of the season)
Joining them in the academy is Tadhg Furlong(20, turns 21 just after the season starts).

At Munster, the current IQ'd first team squad members who are viable options at Tighthead Prop are:
Stephen Archer(25, turns 26 midseason)
Both John Ryan(24, turns 25 before the season starts) and Alan Cotter(26, turns 27 at the start of the season) have had varying levels of exposure at tighthead for Munster. Ryan appears to however moved back to loosehead and Cotter hasn't quite progressed all that much. Munster currently have no players in the academy who can be considered at tighthead prop.

At Ulster, the current IQ'd first team squad members who are viable options at Tighthead Prop are:
Declan Fitzpatrick(30, 31 next summer)
Ricky Lutton(27, turns 28 midseason)
Bronson Ross(27, turns 28 midseason)
Adam Macklin(23, turns 24 this month)
In the academy they have Jake Caulfield(20, turns 21 midseason) and Chris Taylor(20, turns 21 midseason). Also there has been rumors of Paddy McAllister(23, turns 24 this month) moving to tighthead aswell.

At Connacht, the current IQ'd first team squad members who are viable options at Tighthead Prop are:
Ronan Loughney(28, turns 29 at the start of the season)
JP Cooney(23, turns 24 midseason)
In the academy they have Peter Reilly(21, turns 22 midseason), Jamie Dever(turned 20 in 2013) and Saba Meunargia(turned 19 in 2013).

The players abroad:
Tony Buckley(32, turns 33 at the start of the season) is not a realitic option Tim Ryan(29, turns 20 next summer) and Brian McGovern(28, turns 28 midseason) are struggling to remain in pro rugby.
John Andress(29, turns 30 midseason) hasn't pushed on lately after showing a lot of promise a few years back.
Jamie Hagan(26, turns 27 at the end of next season) started to show a lot of promise late last season and probably has the highest potential of foreign based props.
Conor Carey(21, turns 22 at the start of the season) recently left Ulster and is looking to gain experience abroad.
Ryan Furniss(20, turns 21 midseason) impressed last year for the under-20s and might be looked at by a province soon in the future.

The wildcard, Nathan White(31, turns 32 at the start of september) becomes Irish qualified in 2014 and is probably currently the second best tighthead in the country.

With each province have various problems developing a tighthead prop over the last decade, it remains to be seen what will happen and who will emerge but one thing is certain Ireland does have a problem at tighthead prop....

Podge_irl

I didn't realise Fitzpatrick was that old. Moore and Furlong are both fantastic prospects (Furlong especially) though while Archer has improved immeasurably (from an incredibly low base it must be added) there is a worrying gap after Ross that may not be filled for a while. Hagan probably in the best position to benefit unless Fitzpatrick can stop getting injured.

Buer

I wouldn't say we've too much problem at tighthead prop, to be honest, in terms of producing them. We just need to use the options we have more. We've a serious number of players coming through in the position and massive work has been done in the academies to develop players specifically in the front row.

At this point in time, we've eight players currently available who have been capped at tighthead in the last few years. We have a glut of strongly tipped younger players coming through and every year the U20 team seems to produce another contender for the future.

The issue in Ireland is game time. If a guy gets the requisite game time, he will develop and hold his own. None of the younger lads at Leinster can get high level games with Ross there. The same is true at the other provinces with NIQ players in the tighthead position. Stephen Archer's development from a bag of wet flour to being a half competent prop against some teams is a good example when Penney gave him significant games through the season, giving him as many starts in one year as he had in the previous three combines.

I've no doubt that we have at least 2-3 players available currently that can match and better Mike Ross if they're given the required exposure and input especially given the age profiles of some.

Need to keep Macklin fit.

One of Himself, Archer and Hagan are the contenders to usurp Ross instead of having the Jersey retired to them.

Following on 3/4 years from that we might well see some Furlong, Moore and AN Other vying for the shirt again.

White to act as sticking plaster for 1/2 seasons probably. A seriously underrated player (and a leader)

jamiedav2011

White is probably the second best IQ TH in the country, wouldn't say he's better than Botha or Afoa.


Moore is the great white hope for me. Hopefully he gets a good chunk of senior game time this year, because he looks ready for it.

.ak

The new binding law may change how props work entirely. The likes of short, squat TH's ala Furlong and Moore etc., will probably come into their own, as scrummaging rather than a heavy hit and lock will be required going forward.

phog

JagerScout wrote: »

fortunately Mike Ross emerged as Hayes came to the end of his career. Mike Ross was however discarded by Munster and had to spend time at Harlequins

I really don't see the need for this, especially in this thread and at the same time ignoring that Hagan another contender for the same positon has just left another Irish province.

Are all players who leave their home province discarded?

Remember when Ross was at Munster it was a 22 man squad so the reserve prop had to cover both positions, that may have been an issue for Ross.

Paul Smeenus

Worth bearing in mind that Kyle McCall earned a senior Ulster cap at tighthead last season, where he stood up manfully to Healy in Dublin, in the last ten/fifteen minutes. Don't know if he's primarly a loosehead?

Zzippy

JagerScout wrote: »

Jamie Hagan(26, turns 27 at the end of next season) started to show a lot of promise late last season and probably has the highest potential of foreign based props.

I would say Hagan showed a lot of promise 3/4 years ago, when he was the starting TH for Connacht, and the Connacht scrum more than held its own with him in that position. Once he joined Leinster he suffered for lack of opportunities in top-level games behind Mike Ross and went backwards a bit. He definitely has the potential to be an international, and the move abroad should do a lot for him, but really he should have been pushing for a place in the Irish squad by now going on how he was playing 3 years ago.

jamiedav2011

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Worth bearing in mind that Kyle McCall earned a senior Ulster cap at tighthead last season, where he stood up manfully to Healy in Dublin, in the last ten/fifteen minutes. Don't know if he's primarly a loosehead?

That was Ricky Lutton wasn't it?

Paul Smeenus

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

That was Ricky Lutton wasn't it?

Nope.

Lutton started, McCall came on for the last ten or fifteen minutes, and did pretty well.



He's not ready to take on the Argentinian front row, but worth noting amongst the options, I think. Possibly more so than Macklin, who played in an HEC semi-final the season before last, and then did nothing last season.

jamiedav2011

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Nope.

Lutton started, McCall came on for the last ten or fifteen minutes, and did pretty well.



He's not ready to take on the Argentinian front row, but worth noting amongst the options, I think. Possibly more so than Macklin, who played in an HEC semi-final the season before last, and then did nothing last season.

Ah sorry, didn't see the last 15 but, didn't know he came on actually.

Paul Smeenus

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Ah sorry, didn't see the last 15 but, didn't know he came on actually.

Nae worries!

Ulster really seem to be undertaking a lot of work to find a tighthead - I don't think there's any faith in Fitzpatrick or Macklin in the mid-to-long term.

Macklin just seems unable to kick on - in fact, there was talk (on the interweb, no less!) that he might not be around this coming season. He beasted Edinburgh in the HEC semi, as I said - but last season they gave him two starts - in a very weak team, expected to lose to Munster, and against the Scarlets, when Afoa was just back from NZ.

Buer

Was Macklin not out with injuries for large chunks of the season? He had surgery earlier this year, I thought.

RuPi

Macklin had a few injuries last year but hasn't progressed as many would have thought, there was murmurs he wasn't rated by Ancombe and wouldn't get a new deal.

McCall is seen by Ulster primarily as a loosehead and that is where he has played the bulk of his club rugby.

JagerScout

Buer wrote: »

I wouldn't say we've too much problem at tighthead prop, to be honest, in terms of producing them.

and yet we are soley reliant on Mike Ross and before him John Hayes.

With one IQ'd TH first choice at one of the provinces.

Buer

JagerScout wrote: »

and yet we are soley reliant on Mike Ross and before him John Hayes.

With one IQ'd TH first choice at one of the provinces.

Which I explained in the rest of my post. We're producing a glut of them.

JagerScout

Buer wrote: »

Which I explained in the rest of my post. We're producing a glut of them.

and developing zero of them

bilston

I'd be interested to see how Paddy Mac goes at TH IF he is tried there. I'm not sure where that rumour has come from though and whether it's true or not. But you've all probably seen the photos, the guy is absolutely enormous now. Think Carl Hayman. That said size is one thing but technique is something else entirely.

As for the situation with Ireland in general I think the future looks reasonable. However in the short term an injury to Ross would leave us in a bit of a pickle. I think a fit Declan Fitzpatrick is probably the best option at this moment in time,although it will be interesting to see how Hagan goes in England. Longer term Moore looks a player and Furlong was impressive at U20 level and after a difficult U20 6Ns I thought Chris Taylor really came back well in the recent JWC so we might see more of him a few years down the line.

Buer

JagerScout wrote: »

and developing zero of them

Which I went into detail about.....

JagerScout

Buer wrote: »

Which I went into detail about.....

what's your point?

none of the young TH's are actually currently receiving any sort of high level experience.. all are way down the depth chart and look like they will remain so for the foreseeable future.

so making the point that once they start to receive some experience they'll be good enough seems a bit presumptuous

Buer

JagerScout wrote: »

what's your point?

none of the young TH's are actually currently receiving any sort of high level experience.. all are way down the depth chart and look like they will remain so for the foreseeable future

That's precisely my point. You're just repeating what I said in the original post.

Did you even read the original post or just the first sentence and edit out the rest when quoting?

Losty Dublin

I'd not be as worried about the age factor affecting the TH options as much as other forward positions. TH is about the only position left where a player still needs to be a cute/dirty hoor on field a la the amateur days and yet still scrummage skillfully; it's players bloom late and play that bit later than their pack colleagues. It's a position that you learn over time and you learn it best by the hard way of losing games; playing the hell out a younger player who isn't long out of schools or academy squads means you are playing a lot of young players who as a rule don't have the wits for the big game. You also risk burn out of players in the late 20's just as they hit their physical prime for the position so nurturing them early is essential if you want a prop to last.

The new TH options will probably lose you some games at first but the key is knowing which games to gamble on losing by blooding your newer TH options. Leinster did this well under Chenka and Smith; Connaught have done well mainly due to their thin squad and their underdog status so it's no shock that their pack are in the reckoning for caps these days.

Letting Hagan go to England will give him yet more match time and he will be back in a couple of seasons as a world class tight head with a decade left in him, much as Mike Ross is now after his time away. Loughney is also a good option for TH and will be one to watch in the autumn when caps are awarded; his future home is not in Connaught.

blackhound

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Loughney is also a good option for TH and will be one to watch in the autumn when caps are awarded; his future home is not in Connaught.

:eek: It fecking better be :P

JagerScout

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I'd not be as worried about the age factor affecting the TH options as much as other forward positions. TH is about the only position left where a player still needs to be a cute/dirty hoor on field a la the amateur days and yet still scrummage skillfully; it's players bloom late and play that bit later than their pack colleagues. It's a position that you learn over time and you learn it best by the hard way of losing games; playing the hell out a younger player who isn't long out of schools or academy squads means you are playing a lot of young players who as a rule don't have the wits for the big game. You also risk burn out of players in the late 20's just as they hit their physical prime for the position so nurturing them early is essential if you want a prop to last.

The new TH options will probably lose you some games at first but the key is knowing which games to gamble on losing by blooding your newer TH options. Leinster did this well under Chenka and Smith; Connaught have done well mainly due to their thin squad and their underdog status so it's no shock that their pack are in the reckoning for caps these days.

Letting Hagan go to England will give him yet more match time and he will be back in a couple of seasons as a world class tight head with a decade left in him, much as Mike Ross is now after his time away. Loughney is also a good option for TH and will be one to watch in the autumn when caps are awarded; his future home is not in Connaught.

Hagan is gone for three years, best case scenario is he returns just after turning 29 and he is entering his peak. Would also say a lot about our reliance on england to develop our props.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

JagerScout wrote: »

Hagan is gone for three years, best case scenario is he returns just after turning 29 and he is entering his peak. Would also say a lot about our reliance on england to develop our props.

Mike Ross, bar him I can't think of any other Irish prop that developed in England to international standard, and even Ross had to improve a lot at Leinster before he was considered for Ireland

Hardly a reliance

Teferi

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Mike Ross, bar him I can't think of any other Irish prop that developed in England to international standard, and even Ross had to improve a lot at Leinster before he was considered for Ireland

Hardly a reliance

Beyond that it looked like Hagan was starting to come good at Leinster. They're not really developing him at all.

JagerScout

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Mike Ross, bar him I can't think of any other Irish prop that developed in England to international standard, and even Ross had to improve a lot at Leinster before he was considered for Ireland

Hardly a reliance

well considering we've only had two tightheads of any decent international standard in the last decade....

JagerScout

Teferi wrote: »

Beyond that it looked like Hagan was starting to come good at Leinster. They're not really developing him at all.

If Ross turns into an excellent prop while at LI they will deserve a large part of the credit...

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

JagerScout wrote: »

well considering we've only had two tightheads of any decent international standard in the last decade....

But that doesn't really mean we're relying on England to produce them does it?

JagerScout

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

But that doesn't really mean we're relying on England to produce them does it?

well one had to go to england to develop and under the assumption that our next high quality starting tighthead is Hagan it would be two out of the last three. Which would indicate a worrying trend.

However I think we will probably avoid that as White will probably be our next TH, but then he was developed by NZ.

Podge_irl

JagerScout wrote: »

well one had to go to england to develop and under the assumption that our next high quality starting tighthead is Hagan it would be two out of the last three. Which would indicate a worrying trend.

However I think we will probably avoid that as White will probably be our next TH, but then he was developed by NZ.

Hagan didn't have to go anywhere.

molloyjh

Podge_irl wrote: »

Hagan didn't have to go anywhere.

To be guaranteed a good amount of first team rugby he really did. Ross is going nowhere for a season or two and then with Bent brought in he needed to assess his position long before he got his run of games towards the end of the season. For him to kick on he either needed assurances that he'd be seeing more game time next season or he needed to leave.

[Jackass]

I think in the short term Hagan may well become first choice. Archer has improved with continued game time, and may step up. I think the jury is still out on Michael Bent. He competed admirably when he first came here, probably being the better of the two tight heads vs South Africa (when Ross went off iirc), however his form collapsed there after, but he came with a good reputation, Feek seemed to be optimistic about him, as did Schmidt, so i'm HOPING that a lot of his troubles came from settling in and being dropped in at the deep end. Hopefully with a full pre-season and time to get into things now, he will build on his promise and the reason he was brought over.

In the longer term, there are lots of tight-heads coming through, who may force their way into first team provincial rugby, major opportunities at Leinster, with Ross now 33 / 34 and competing with Bent for 2nd / 1st spot when he's gone. Also, the young lads there (Furlong and Moore) have excelled at youth international level, so I would hope at least one of them can make an impression over the next 2 - 3 seasons.

One thing is for sure though, I think Mike Ross has really lost a lot of his ability over the last year and a bit. I never rated him as highly as some others seemed to have done, he was really a prop who would hold the scrum together rather than ever being a destructive, top class scrummager, but I think he is not an international quality tight head at this point and someone really needs to make that 3 jersey their own over the next season for Ireland imo.

scrights

A follow up to this interesting thread:

Leinster
Tadhg Furlong(24)
Michael Bent(31)
Andrew Porter(21)

In rude health, even with Mike Ross departing. If Porter can stick at the position and develop...

Munster
John Ryan(28)
Stephen Archer(29)
Brian Scott(24)

Ryan's emergence was a huge boost, Archer is Archer.. Scott is developing, but wouldn't surprise me to see Munster try sign a NIQ.

Ulster
Wieann Herbst(28)
Rodney Ah You(28)
Ross Kane(22)

Kane is the big hope here, Herbst is about to qualify for Ireland but he hasn't been great. Ah You, well yeah..

Connacht
Finlay Bealham(25)
Conor Carey(25)
Dominic Robertson-McCoy(23)

Bealham very good player, if behind Ryan as backup to Furlong. Carey had a solid debut season. Not sure about McCoy.

Bridge93

Hopefully Oliver Jager continues his development in Christchurch and we might see him on these shores again one day.

Are Leinster in rude health? We're an injury away from a 21 year old who's shown basically nothing at TH playing European rugby. I wonder if there's a chance of getting Moore back after his time at Wasps, but looks unlikely now imo.

scrights

Zander Helpless Soy wrote: »

Are Leinster in rude health? We're an injury away from a 21 year old who's shown basically nothing at TH playing European rugby. I wonder if there's a chance of getting Moore back after his time at Wasps, but looks unlikely now imo.

Compared to other provinces.

Hard to know on Moore, Wasps hasn't went to plan.

Zander Helpless Soy

Zander Helpless Soy wrote: »

Are Leinster in rude health? We're an injury away from a 21 year old who's shown basically nothing at TH playing European rugby. I wonder if there's a chance of getting Moore back after his time at Wasps, but looks unlikely now imo.

Held up against Ulster last week so it's a start. Will see more next season.

I also don't think Ross would have been let go if Leinster were massively concerned about Porter.

Squidgy Black

Zander Helpless Soy wrote: »

Are Leinster in rude health? We're an injury away from a 21 year old who's shown basically nothing at TH playing European rugby. I wonder if there's a chance of getting Moore back after his time at Wasps, but looks unlikely now imo.

There's Heffernan in the academy as well, but they must really see something in Porter if he was given a senior contract after his first year in the Academy over a year two tighthead who played there all his career.

scrights

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

There's Heffernan in the academy as well, but they must really see something in Porter if he was given a senior contract after his first year in the Academy over a year two tighthead who played there all his career.

Heffernan hasn't played there all his career, was a LH for Leinster u18 when Jager was still around.

Porter was leaving Leinster this season, if he didn't sign a senior contract. They signed him to keep him, then decided to try him at TH.

Moved ahead of Loughman and Heffernan, not that either would have huge expectations behind them. Both very much being projects at the position.

shuffol

Zander Helpless Soy wrote: »

Are Leinster in rude health? We're an injury away from a 21 year old who's shown basically nothing at TH playing European rugby. I wonder if there's a chance of getting Moore back after his time at Wasps, but looks unlikely now imo.

I'd say the chances of getting Moore back are nil. I don't think he'd move back when he's a certainty to be second choice. Also he's bound to be on very good money with Wasps and I couldn't see Leinster shelling out big on a replacement TH when Bent is so reliable and never injured, they obviously have high hopes for Porter as well. It's money better spent elsewhere.

stephen_n

Was it not only something like 10k in the difference between what Wasps gave and what Leinster offered Moore? Don't think it was huge money at all.

irishbucsfan

stephen_n wrote: »

Was it not only something like 10k in the difference between what Wasps gave and what Leinster offered Moore? Don't think it was huge money at all.

It was the process of the negotiations that was the problem. Which is supposedly a bit of a recurring theme in the country at times.

stephen_n

stephen_n wrote: »

Was it not only something like 10k in the difference between what Wasps gave and what Leinster offered Moore? Don't think it was huge money at all.

I thought the talk was he'd been seriously low-balled by Leinster/IRFU/whoever was offering?

Then there was a brief spell then where the talk was that he'd stay. I can't remember where but I read from someone usually reliable that he did not want to leave at all, despite public utterances.

I honestly thought losing him would be disastrous, it was obvious Furlong was good but not this good. And he'd a patchy injury record.

Podge_irl

Supposedly he was low-balled, he accepted an offer from Wasps, was given a counter offer from Leinster/IRFU and tried to back out of Wasps contract but couldn't at that point. The latter offer may be the one that was quite near the Wasps offer.

To be honest, him leaving has worked out extremely well for Leinster this season. While it would be nice to have him back and he would be an improvement over Bent, it would seem like a poor distribution of resources.

scrights

Moore was looking for a central contract first, that wasn't happening.

Then there was problems with contract length and pay with Leinster due to how injury prone he had been and concerns of work ethic re: staying in shape.

Buer

He won't be coming back to Leinster unless he wants to be second fiddle. I'm not even sure how eager Leinster would be to have him now. He has had some injury trouble over there and looks completely out of shape these days.

If he was to get fit in the next 8 months and looking to return to Ireland, I'd love to see him consider Ulster.

The Pheasant2

Buer wrote: »

If he was to get fit in the next 8 months and looking to return to Ireland, I'd love to see him consider Ulster.

Yeah think him to Ulster would be best for all - they get a good tighthead for their somewhat anemic pack, Marty gets to start week in week out, and Ireland gets another contender for the jersey in a difficult to fill position.

stephen_n

It's easy to forget how good Marty is when fit, would be great to see him back in Ireland and fighting for an Irish spot.

scrights

Doubt he would want to live in Belfast if given option.