Would you support a Federal Europe?

Foxhound38

If it was done properly, would you support the ultimate step in european integration, which would make us part of a superpower but at a possible cost to our soveriegnty?

There's actually a lot to be said for it tbh - we'd be out of financial crisis for one thing, gombeen Irish politics would also likely be a thing of the past, or at least mitigated.

What do ye reckon? Bridge too far?

Timmyctc

Could you put that in serious laymans terms?

keelanj69

Foxhound38 wrote: »

If it was done properly, would you support the ultimate step in european integration, which would make us part of a superpower but at a possible cost to our soveriegnty?

There's actually a lot to be said for it tbh - we'd be out of financial crisis for one thing, gombeen Irish politics would also likely be a thing of the past, or at least mitigated.

What do ye reckon? Bridge too far?

I probably would.

Sure havn't we lost our power anyway when the lads in the Dail won't listen to us after elections, amiright?

The thing I'd worry about is becoming a US system where vote right or left. Guy A or Guy B.

Artful_Badger

Yes, sovereignty is overrated and in a lot of cases (like ours) non existent when in debt to the likes of the IMF.

Mint Sauce

Haven't we already pretty much done this.

keith16

keelanj69 wrote: »

The thing I'd worry about is becoming a US system where vote right or left. Guy A or Guy B.

We already have that system.

Toby Take a Bow

Foxhound38 wrote: »

If it was done properly

How would it be 'done properly'?

I wouldn't support it, as any sort of federal Europe could only, as far as I can see, work along the lines of how it is already structured.

Mint Sauce

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Haven't we already pretty much done this.

Sort of, the next few steps are more cosmetic than anything else.

Foxhound38

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Yes, sovereignty is overrated and in a lot of cases (like ours) non existent when in debt to the likes of the IMF.

Yeah, I've never gotten the importance laid on sovereignty to be honest - as long as services are of a high quality, and people have jobs and food on the table what is the issue?

Artful_Badger

keith16 wrote: »

We already have that system.

Except only the centre has any chance of governing so there really is zero choice of government. Just a choice of how far left the opposition.

Foxhound38

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

How would it be 'done properly'?

I wouldn't support it, as any sort of federal Europe could only, as far as I can see, work along the lines of how it is already structured.

For example, 2 Senators per country, and a congress proportional with population. Would have control over a federal budget, defence, foreign affairs etc. Most powers remaining with National Governments

eireannBEAR

one economy.

one nation.

one army.

one superpower.

id support it.

Gannicus

No I wouldn't.

Purely because the countries would vote in their own ministers based on national loyalty alone. Meaning the Countires with biggest populations would develop the most power in a single European superpower. This would result in the whole place being run by one or two nations.

I reckon it would lead to the dissolving of the EU either completely or by at least half.

keith16

Imagine an all European football team.

Buffon

Lahm Chiellini Hummels Cole

Ronaldo Pirlo Iniesta Bale

RVP Ibra

gallag

Who would be in a federal Europe? The U.K would not, nor would France, Germany would love it as its sort of always been a goal for them but would it just be Germany and a bunch of bankrupt countries Germany could rule over? Sorry for the godwin but hittler would be doing the opposite of rolling in his grave.

eireannBEAR

Big Steve wrote: »

No I wouldn't.

Purely because the countries would vote in their own ministers based on national loyalty alone. Meaning the Countires with biggest populations would develop the most power in a single European superpower. This would result in the whole place being run by one or two nations.

no different than dublin or new york having the power in their respective countries.

Richard Hillman

<Insert historic Irish person> will be spinning in his grave

strobe

I'd go a step further and have a federal UN with a constitution built around the UNDHR.

wp_rathead

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I
There's actually a lot to be said for it tbh - we'd be out of financial crisis for one thing

This the same European Union with the currency of the Euro we talking about?

That said, I wouldn't really have much of a prob with it - iv become totally disillusioned with irish politics

eireannBEAR

strobe wrote: »

I'd go a step further and have a federal UN with a constitution built around the UNDHR.

unite with the fuzzy wuzzies are you mad?? lol thats a joke btw.

Timmyctc

If we could like form some sort of Gay European Avengers and sort out Russia then challenge the US on spying on our Skype calls Id be all for it. I dirty talk with the OH on Skype now I know that Obama has seen my OH's funbags too

Peregrine

Timmyctc wrote: »

If we could like form some sort of Gay European Avengers and sort out Russia then challenge the US on spying on our Skype calls Id be all for it. I dirty talk with the OH on Skype now I know that Obama has seen my OH's funbags too

Probably, yeah

eireannBEAR

the EU economy is the biggest in the world even bigger than the us,if we had a real european president we could take advantage of this. if we had a real european central bank we wouldnt be in this mess that we are now in,and the euro would be a stable currency from greece to germany.

irish politicians cant be trusted.

bnt

The USA has a Federal system, but that hasn't stopped various States from enacting their own silly laws e.g. the Texas Abortion Bill. I expect that Ireland would refuse to join such a Federation, if it threatened their ability to enact such laws.

Then there's Ireland'a famously-low corporate tax rate and loopholes (see "Double Irish") - about the only reasons foreign companies set up shop here at all. Nothing will be done that could threaten that situation.

old_aussie

Foxhound38 wrote: »

What do ye reckon? Bridge too far?

Great movie

bodice ripper

Definitely. American by birth, European by the grace of god.

Timmyctc

old_aussie wrote: »

Great movie

Well, as you know, I always felt we tried to go a bridge too far.

Love that line.

Toby Take a Bow

Foxhound38 wrote: »

For example, 2 Senators per country, and a congress proportional with population. Would have control over a federal budget, defence, foreign affairs etc. Most powers remaining with National Governments

In that case, no. I think the EU has done some great work in terms of forcing certain civil rights issues in countries that were dragging their feet, but economically it is geared towards a particular kind of economics that works in certain countries (I'm looking at YOU Germany, and to a lesser extent France). Add to that the serious issues with a continent-wide currency that further cements the economic policies and you will have issues around bailouts and the like during the next recessionary cycle.

Foxhound38

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

In that case, no. I think the EU has done some great work in terms of forcing certain civil rights issues in countries that were dragging their feet, but economically it is geared towards a particular kind of economics that works in certain countries (I'm looking at YOU Germany, and to a lesser extent France). Add to that the serious issues with a continent-wide currency that further cements the economic policies and you will have issues around bailouts and the like during the next recessionary cycle.

The boom/bust cycle is just capitalism though - no market economy is immune. The reason ours is particularly bad is due to idiotic FF policies overheating the genuine boom we had in the late 90's/early 2000's. Our need for a bailout was (not completely, but for the most part) a result of our own stupidity and system...

du Maurier

Foxhound38 wrote: »

If it was done properly, would you support the ultimate step in european integration, which would make us part of a superpower but at a possible cost to our soveriegnty?

There's actually a lot to be said for it tbh - we'd be out of financial crisis for one thing, gombeen Irish politics would also likely be a thing of the past, or at least mitigated.

What do ye reckon? Bridge too far?

Why in AH? You obviously don't give a f*** anyway.

Timmyctc

du Maurier wrote: »

Why in AH? You obviously don't give a f*** anyway.

It was going pretty well up till you came in anyways.

Micky Dolenz

One world order. What could possibly go wrong. P

du Maurier

Timmyctc wrote: »

It was going pretty well up till you came in anyways.

Hmm. Perhaps. What's with the s attached to the anyway? It might have been going okay until that too:)

Timmyctc

du Maurier wrote: »

Hmm. Perhaps. What's with the s attached to the anyway? It might have been going okay until that too:)

...Good one Herr Du Maurier

Absolutely not.

Conmaicne Mara

No, I wouldn't support a federal European state. As it is I think the EU has intruded too far in daily life.

WanabeOlympian

Yes to some extent, and then again no! Although I think this will eventually happen especially as we will need to be stronger and more united in the future against the other super power economies.

shruikan2553

A better choice than FF

hatrickpatrick

Ordinary people end up with absolutely no power in gigantic voting blocs like you describe. Just look at the United States - for example, overwhelming opposition to the NSA and yet it will continue regardless.

A government which represents such a vast area and population is a government which has little to no accountability with each individual voter. No thanks.

Phill Ewinn

Everyone would join. Europeans, Asian countries, Arab countries. most people are not aware of the boundaries this Europe place occupies.

Turkey for example. Most of it is not in Europe.

keelanj69

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Everyone would join. Europeans, Asian countries, Arab countries. most people are not aware of the boundaries this Europe place occupies.

Turkey for example. Most of it is not in Europe.

Depending on what terms were important then this wouldnt matter.

Geographical and cultural- No .
Economically and in military terms- Yes.

Foxhound38

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

No, I wouldn't support a federal European state. As it is I think the EU has intruded too far in daily life.

What, by giving us all those structural funds for roads and such?

Augmerson

Foxhound38 wrote: »

What, by giving us all those structural funds for roads and such?

In return for access to our seas and our fish?

I would never support a federal Europe. I voted No against Lisbon twice, which was the Constitution for Europe treaty, just with all the Constitution words taken out. That was what they hoped would start the EU federation.

If people think that sovreignty doesn't matter and as long as services and administration are good then it doesn't matter what Gov't is in control they are in for a very risky reality check. It is absolutely VITAL that Ireland gets rid of these IMF shackles and our politicians stop pandering to the Brussels setup. We will never pull out of this mess if we keep up as we are.

Conmaicne Mara

Foxhound38 wrote: »

What, by giving us all those structural funds for roads and such?

Instead of trying for a thanks whore post, by the way which has no bearing on my post. Why don't you read and comprehend the question and my reply, then look and see how your reply is a nonsense - seeing as how we've received structural funds for years without there beign a federalised Europe.

:rolleyes:

Richard Hillman

Richard Hillman wrote: »

<Insert historic European ruler> will be spinning in his grave

fyp

Foxhound38

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Instead of trying for a thanks whore post, by the way which has no bearing on my post. Why don't you read and comprehend the question and my reply, then look and see how your reply is a nonsense - seeing as how we've received structural funds for years without there beign a federalised Europe.

:rolleyes:

Instead of throwing abuse, perhaps you could look again at what you posted and point out to me what you mean - you said it intruded on your daily life, I asked (in a somewhat roundabout way) how and pointed out that quite a bit of their "intrusions" have been to the benefit of the people here (infrastructure, roads etc).

Conmaicne Mara

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Instead of throwing abuse, perhaps you could look again at what you posted and point out to me what you mean - you said it intruded on your daily life, I asked (in a somewhat roundabout way) how and pointed out that quite a bit of their "intrusions" have been to the benefit of the people here (infrastructure, roads etc).

No you didn't.

Your point was pointless. Structural funds have been with us for years without a Federal Europe.

joe swanson

Id be all for it as long as those two eejits daly and Wallace weren't allowed near the parliament to embarass the country

My name is URL

strobe wrote: »

I'd go a step further and have a federal UN with a constitution built around the UNDHR.

Yeah, I can see that working out well. The UN is already, and will forever be a joke as long as certain individual member states can use their veto indiscriminately.

Tzar Chasm

at this stage in the EU's development there are only 2 choices,

Full integration and federalisation with an effective parliament and an end to the the bizarre setup of commissioners and the council of ministers

Dissolve the union and let's go back to kickin seven shades of snit out of each other on an industrial scale.

for the EU to reach its full potential it must take the next step towards complete integration

Artful_Badger

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

No you didn't.

Your point was pointless. Structural funds have been with us for years without a Federal Europe.

You said the EU had already intruded too much in daily life. Nobody said anything about needing a federal Europe to get structural funds.