What's the obsession with diesel engines

Noticed that car buyers only seem interested in diesel engines but is it not the case that diesel's are only worth the extra expense if you're doing the mileage? Considering that most Dublin commuters are doing average of 12 - 15km per year, would petrol not be more suitable?

Anan1

The Irish are obsessed with the cheap tax.

deadybai

i think the engine size has got to do with it as well. Generally diesel are 1.9 and up.

Mycroft H

brenbrady wrote: »

Noticed that car buyers only seem interested in diesel engines but is it not the case that diesel's are only worth the extra expense if you're doing the mileage? Considering that most Dublin commuters are doing average of 12 - 15km per year, would petrol not be more suitable?

There is plenty of people doing more than that mileage per year.

CiniO

brenbrady wrote: »

Noticed that car buyers only seem interested in diesel engines but is it not the case that diesel's are only worth the extra expense if you're doing the mileage? Considering that most Dublin commuters are doing average of 12 - 15km per year, would petrol not be more suitable?

Considering current VRT rates based on CO2 emissions, unfortunately many cars come cheaper in diesel version, even though manufacturers sell them cheaper for petrol models.

Leonard Hofstadter

Anan1 wrote: »

The Irish are obsessed with the cheap tax.

QFT. It's amazing how much people will spend on a car in order to save 50 cent a week in car tax.

Another reason for the high sales figures of diesels is because of the sheep mentality that has affected the average car buyer's purchasing habits since the year dot. Irish people have got to be the worst for just following the crowd, in the UK for example people have an imagination and will often buy high spec models with large capacity engines

The 'in' thing to do at the moment is to buy a diesel, people just buy them and don't even consider a petrol, even though many models are considerably cheaper to buy, are much better suited to the average buyer's needs (than a diesel) and are actually only a small bit higher for motor tax.

dr.fuzzenstein

120+ km a day and 50 MPG are hard to pass up on when every Penny counts...
Of course in an ideal world where we're all millionaires and can afford to needlessly piss money away, we'd all drive 5 liter V8's. (Well, some will still love their 1l Micra).
Even though mine's 1.8 and an 06, so deffo no cheap tax, but that was reflected in the purchase price.

bazz26

It's not just motor tax, there are plenty of petrol cars out there with similar motor tax rates to diesels. For a lot of people the headline grabbing savings in mpg at the pump is the clincher rather than doing some maths where the overall cost of ownership is calculated.

This in turn has a knock on effect of making the choice of petrol cars very limited resulting in people who are doing low mileage being left with no choice but to buy diesel. So it's a vicious circle.

monkeysnapper

captainspeed wrote: »

QFT. It's amazing how much people will spend on a car in order to save 50 cent a week in car tax.

Another reason for the high sales figures of diesels is because of the sheep mentality

.

I totally agree, and maybe people should start educating them selves to the option of electric power . Sure they're more to buy but you no longer have to worry about pumps and you get low tax to boot

MuppetCheck

monkeysnapper wrote: »

I totally agree, and maybe people should start educating them selves to the option of electric power . Sure they're more to buy but you no longer have to worry about pumps and you get low tax to boot

And if they made an affordable one that didn't look shyte they'd hop on that train too.

CptMackey

When I bought my current car 2.0 l petrol everybody I know went crazy.

Why?
But it will have worse millage than diesel?
The tax is expensive? Etc

But what I saved by not buying a diesel I still haven't gone through in tax and petrol costs

Personally I prefer the petrol engines

YouTookMyName

Going from a 2L diesel Avensis to a 1.8 Petrol Avensis tomorrow. No more more noise sitting in traffic, no DMF to worry about going ping and injectors too.

Nice simple straightforward petrol engine. Can't wait.

Diesel is false ecomony unless you're doing the mileage.

The problem is when you buy a petrol engine you'll have trouble trying to sell it on again.

CiniO

captainspeed wrote: »

QFT. It's amazing how much people will spend on a car in order to save 50 cent a week in car tax.

This argument is raised every time around this topic, but to be honest, I'd prefer to spend money on newer better car, than spending the same to tax older worse car.

Guy:Incognito

captainspeed wrote: »

QFT. It's amazing how much people will spend on a car in order to save 50 cent a week in car tax.

This statement irritates me. People change cars , different people hold on to cars for different lenghts of time but everyone changes at some point. When it comes to change they use many criteria, the tax rate being one. Thats not the same as changing to get a lower tax rate, for the most part theyd be changing anyway.

DIesel is cheaper per litre and often does better mpg.

hi5

Its a critical mass thing, most people haven't a clue what's going on, but watch everyone else in order to find out, when enough people do something, then they themselves jump in, safe (or so they believe) in the knowledge that the majority are always right.
They did it a few years ago with the property market, most got stung big time and will be paying the price well into the future.
Watch out for the clichés and one liners, a sure sign that they haven't a clue.

Bpmull

In my own case I drive diesel because I do enough miles to justify it 30k km plus a year. My parents both have diesels they both do 30k km plus a year. My dad personally prefers diesel cars. He sees petrol cars as weekend cars. Some people have this sheep mentality but alot don't.

Certainly not me or my parents. My dad was driving diesel cars 20 years ago when no one had them. The last petrol car they owned was 2000 ( apart from one weekend petrol car) it was a brand new car my dad kept it 6 months and swore he'd never buy a petrol again. He hated it. I have nothing against petrol cars and will certainly buy some in the future. But currently I couldn't afford to run any kind of decent petrol car and Id rather my 1.6 diesel to some powerless 1.2 petrol that's gutless and still won't do a whole lot more than 40mpg. Petrol cars are great when they have performance and decent power. But when there these tiny petrol engines I'd rather a diesel anyday.

2012paddy2012

deadybai wrote: »

i think the engine size has got to do with it as well. Generally diesel are 1.9 and up.

I have a lovely 1.4 diesel corrolla beautiful small family car and diesel you have the poke and the economy and lower tax all positive !

dgt

I do the mileage, simple as. 500 miles/800 kms a week is a bit much for a 1.2 petrol.....

No cheap tax, €710 a year or €800 for me as I pay quarterly
No DMF/DPF/commonrail/electronic tat to worry about
Economical. Easily does over 50mpg
Very simple mechanically
Very tunable
Very comfortable on long journeys
Very cheap to run

What more do I need :cool:

Jesus.

brenbrady wrote: »

Noticed that car buyers only seem interested in diesel engines but is it not the case that diesel's are only worth the extra expense if you're doing the mileage? Considering that most Dublin commuters are doing average of 12 - 15km per year, would petrol not be more suitable?

Not in my experience. No matter the driving, diesel is always more economical as far as I'm concerned.

Before guys start attacking me, I want to state that that is just my own personal experience, nothing more. And I've never actually owned a diesel car!

colm_mcm

I'm kinda having a longing for diesel again, the civic is powerful enough, but a diesel one is so much punchier and efortless in real life.
Can't justify €4000 odd to go to a decent 08 one though.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Desiels are more torquey, they feel faster and accelerate well within gear which is what most peoiple want. I drove a 2.2ltr desiel engine with 150 odd Bhp that was reading 70mpg on the demo car, thats pretty amazing.

2012paddy2012

Rayden Gray Reporter wrote: »

Desiels are more torquey, they feel faster and accelerate well within gear which is what most peoiple want. I drove a 2.2ltr desiel engine with 150 odd Bhp that was reading 70mpg on the demo car, thats pretty amazing.

Agree best of both worlds with the diesel

Jesus.

Rayden Gray Reporter wrote: »

Desiels are more torquey, they feel faster and accelerate well within gear which is what most peoiple want..

Spot on post there. The older I get, the more I believe that torque is the real measurement for a cars performance. In everyday terms, 0-60 times don't mean an awful lot. 40-70 or whatever is more relevant.

And if you have a fairly large/heavy car, a torquey diesel is your ticket.

toastedpickles

I'm essentially a diesel driver in a petrol car, I've clocked up a rather large amount of miles in the last year as some of you might know :P

Come september I'm getting a 2.2 diesel,I don't mind paying the tax and I genuinely can't wait, it'l just be like a good relationship, everything just makes sense to me to get a diesel

Cookie_Monster

cheaper to run
That's the average mentality out there, Irish people tend not to think of or care about servicing costs, just running costs.

MuppetCheck

I drove a 1.4 petrol 108bhp ceed back to back against a 95bhp 1.3 diesel astra recently. Both aren't going to set the world alight but the performance from the small diesel was far more preferable to the petrol in normal driving.

My father had a 2 litre petrol and I had a 2.2 diesel that was slightly less powerful. The diesel again was more usable day to day.

The diesels are turbocharged and that doesn't mean a completely level playing field but like for like in most ranges the diesel version usually means for more relaxed progress as the power is in the mid range. The vast majority of people don't drive around at high revs extracting all the power of their petrol.

I drive a diesel because I cover a fair whack of mileage. Given the choice it wouldn't be what I would drive but that's the way it is. It's not suitable for a lot of drivers in this country, but the tax system is set up in such a way it often makes a new petrol a poor choice. In my experience diesels around town aren't all that much more economical around town than the equivalent petrol and while nowhere near as shyte as they are made out to be, they are that little bit noisier. On the motorway my own car is noticeably quieter than the petrol version.

mad muffin

Direct injection turbo petrol engines...that is all...:pac:

166man

captainspeed wrote: »

QFT. It's amazing how much people will spend on a car in order to save 50 cent a week in car tax.

Another reason for the high sales figures of diesels is because of the sheep mentality that has affected the average car buyer's purchasing habits since the year dot. Irish people have got to be the worst for just following the crowd, in the UK for example people have an imagination and will often buy high spec models with large capacity engines

The 'in' thing to do at the moment is to buy a diesel, people just buy them and don't even consider a petrol, even though many models are considerably cheaper to buy, are much better suited to the average buyer's needs (than a diesel) and are actually only a small bit higher for motor tax.

People buy nicer cars in the UK because of how much cheaper they are them here. I can assure you many if them wouldnt be driving similar cars here if resident here. Tax is only a small example where a 530i is €1600 a year here but €400 over there. Ask a Brit to pay that level of road tax and they'd be all into their 520d's.

I also disagree with this idea of people buying diesels for the cheaper tax. How much cheaper we talking, if looking at new cars there ain't much difference between the tax on a Golf 1.4TSI and a1.6TDI these days. Maybe people drive bigger commutes these days?

Also many cars in Ireland are actually nicer cars in diesel format. Take a Toyota Avensis, the D4D drives much nicer than the equivalent petrol and is much more economical as well as more torque etc. I'd take a diesel over the petrol even if I did 8k km a year as its simply nicer to drive.

Brian?

Jesus. wrote: »

Spot on post there. The older I get, the more I believe that torque is the real measurement for a cars performance. In everyday terms, 0-60 times don't mean an awful lot. 40-70 or whatever is more relevant.

And if you have a fairly large/heavy car, a torquey diesel is your ticket.

That depends though. My wife has a BMW X3 3.0i, the same car comes with 2.5 and a 2.0 diesels. I know which one I'd rather over take in.

Zcott

colm_mcm wrote: »

I'm kinda having a longing for diesel again, the civic is powerful enough, but a diesel one is so much punchier and efortless in real life.
Can't justify €4000 odd to go to a decent 08 one though.

And good for 60mpg, too.

colm_mcm

Zcott wrote: »

And good for 60mpg, too.

Wouldn't be a massive motivation but welcome all the same, getting 43mpg in the 1.8

CiniO

Rayden Gray Reporter wrote: »

Desiels are more torquey, they feel faster and accelerate well within gear which is what most peoiple want. I drove a 2.2ltr desiel engine with 150 odd Bhp that was reading 70mpg on the demo car, thats pretty amazing.

Diesels provide greater power at lower revs, and while many people (especially in Ireland) seem to not like revving the engine, then diesels indeed might be suitable for them...

But as the revs are so limited (most diesel won't rev above 4k rpm), you need to change gears much more often.
I loved in my petrol car, when I was cruising on 5th gear at 2500, and then reduction to 3rd for overtaking - revs jump to 4000, and you go all the way up to 7000rpm, and then back to 5th.
In diesel, before I'm finished overtaking, the gear is finished and I need to change for next one.

Jesus. wrote: »

Spot on post there. The older I get, the more I believe that torque is the real measurement for a cars performance.

It isn't.
Engine max torque value in fact tells you pretty much nothing about car performance.

In everyday terms, 0-60 times don't mean an awful lot. 40-70 or whatever is more relevant.

It would be virtually impossible to find a car that is better in doing 0-60, but worse in doing 40-70.

IMO 0-100km/h (0-62mph) is the best way to describe car performance.

And if you have a fairly large/heavy car, a torquey diesel is your ticket.

colm_mcm

I think the amount of work getting from 30-70 is the key here.
Being able to just put the boot down in top gear is a lot easier than dropping it into 3rd. Its not as much fun, but its certainly more convenient.

Jesus.

Brian? wrote: »

That depends though. My wife has a BMW X3 3.0i, the same car comes with 2.5 and a 2.0 diesels. I know which one I'd rather over take in.

You're comparing a 3 liter with a 2.5 and a 2.0 though mate.

Voodoomelon

To me, most diesels are inferior in every way apart from economy. If economy isn't an issue, I see no reason to own one.

But I do see why so many people find them attractive. Whilst we all bark on about the total cost to change/of ownership, most people only look at it from a monthly payment point of view. That is, the car is typically financed in some way, and petrol will only add €50-€100 a month to the repayment, plus the tax difference. It doesn't matter that it costs several thousand more to begin with. The myth from a decade ago about reliable diesels running forever also still prevails.

Jesus.

colm_mcm wrote: »

I think the amount of work getting from 30-70 is the key here.
Being able to just put the boot down in top gear is a lot easier than dropping it into 3rd. Its not as much fun, but its certainly more convenient.

Tell that to Cinio!

Brian?

Jesus. wrote: »

You're comparing a 3 liter with a 2.5 and a 2.0 though mate.

I'm aware of that. I'm comparing the engines available for the car. I'm going to buy that car anyway, so it's the only comparison I can do.

Saab Ed

Petrol has taken a major leap forward lately. Some of the sub 1 litre turbo engines atr just crackers. Sure they dont give just the same mpg but they cost thousands less, offer the same torque curve, cost the same if not less to tax, weigh fcuk all so they're much nicer to drive and they're far quieter.

When the penny drops, people will be swooning back to the green pump when they realize they never make back the extar cost of the diesel car on fuel savings less they do savage milegae.

challengemaster

CiniO wrote: »

But as the revs are so limited (most diesel won't rev above 4k rpm), you need to change gears much more often.

You hear this a lot about diesels, but if you can drive properly I really don't think thats true. If anything it's the opposite.

You change gear more in a petrol to get it into the correct rev band for overtaking, which you've even used as an example. Most diesels are already in their powerband at cruising speed. My 320d covers ~65-170km/h in its powerband in 4th gear (turbo fully spooled at ~1800rpm). If you include before the turbo fully spools, it's easily 50-170km/h covered in one gear. So no, I don't accept this nonsense that you change gear more in a diesel.

Voodoomelon wrote: »

To me, most diesels are inferior in every way apart from economy.

Out of sheer interest, why?

magicman88

ive a 150bhp petrol accord leaves your poor specced 100 bhp vw"s and audis in the wing mirror and still get 40mpg

SpaceTime

Anan1 wrote: »

The Irish are obsessed with the cheap tax.

As is everyone else in Europe. Diesel cars are almost the only thing on the road in France and they're paying for it in increased particulate air pollution in the bigger cities.

gramar

I like the sound of diesels and how they drive. I've driven a few petrol cars of different engine sizes and never liked them. If I can get better mileage and lowertax then thats a bonus.

SpaceTime

I hate pumping diesel though. If you get it on your hands its difficult to get off without resorting to using tissue paper.

Victor Meldrew

challengemaster wrote: »

You change gear more in a petrol to get it into the correct rev band for overtaking, which you've even used as an example. Most diesels are already in their powerband at cruising speed. My 320d covers ~65-170km/h in its powerband in 4th gear (turbo fully spooled at ~1800rpm). If you include before the turbo fully spools, it's easily 50-170km/h covered in one gear. So no, I don't accept this nonsense that you change gear more in a diesel.

Interesting that you have a 320d. I just got rid of a 520d in part because it was awful to drive in traffic. 1st was too short and 2nd was too tall when crawling. It would not tolerate low revs and creeping along. The noise was horrible and I was not getting the MPG due to short, congested driving. i know the engine was not liking it either.

So a non-turbo petrol made mores sense.

I accept that on the open road, cruising, or from a standing start, "getting round the roundabout" the more powerful and more torqu-ey diesel blows the socks off the petrol, but for 90% of my "driving" i find the petrol more pleasant.

A Nissan Leaf would probably be ideal given my usage, but that's just not going to happen..

September1

Diesels are easier to sell, so people are more likely to buy them as new vehicles. They often suffer much less depreciation, which is a major cost of ownership of brand new car, with many cars in recent years had almost same MSRP regardless of being diesel or petrol. Many cars like Duster in Ireland come only with diesel engines, which even more creates "obsession". I think that people are rationally responding to market situation and tax incentives.

For Forks Sake

magicman88 wrote: »

ive a 150bhp petrol accord leaves your poor specced 100 bhp vw"s and audis in the wing mirror and still get 40mpg

I've a 163 hp diesel Volvo thats better specced than any Accord and returns over 50mpg.

Who's up next? :-D

cpoh1

Diesel from a performance point of view will always be inferior to petrol like for like.

As someone who owns both a diesel for commuting and a petrol for fun my take on it is this -

Diesel the good bits:
I go to the petrol station less

Diesel the bad bits:
Power delivery/Low revs - great if youre a rep, bad if you like driving
Noise
Sulphur & carbon monoxide Pollution (the real global pollution issue, not CO2!)
Cabin vibrations on any diesel that costs less than 30k
Maintenance costs over petrol
The smell

R.O.R

For Forks Sake wrote: »

I've a 163 hp diesel Volvo thats better specced than any Accord and returns over 50mpg.

Who's up next? :-D

If he's getting 40mpg from a 2.0i VTEC Accord, he'd be getting 65-70mpg from most modern 2.0Tdi's. New D4 is 65mpg combined according to manufacturer figures, but if he can beat manufacturer figures in the Honda, should also be able to beat them in the Volvo.

Think I once got more than 40mpg on a tank in my Accord. S60/V60 163ps is a much better drive though.

cpoh1

For Forks Sake wrote: »

I've a 163 hp diesel Volvo thats better specced than any Accord and returns over 50mpg.

Who's up next? :-D

...and it costs more to buy, more to maintain, cant rev above 4000rpm and is no fun to drive.

dr.fuzzenstein

Rayden Gray Reporter wrote: »

Desiels are more torquey, they feel faster and accelerate well within gear which is what most peoiple want. I drove a 2.2ltr desiel engine with 150 odd Bhp that was reading 70mpg on the demo car, thats pretty amazing.

A lot of people just like to parrot Clarkson on diesel vs petrol.
I like my oil burner.

dr.fuzzenstein

cpoh1 wrote: »

...and it costs more to buy, more to maintain, cant rev above 4000rpm and is no fun to drive.

case in point, see above