Opinions on Club Rule

Batman101

Hey lads, I've been a lurker on here for a long time and don't post too often but want some advice on a matter.

I'm a student member of my local golf course and have been a member for about 9 years now. There was a new rule brought in place last year to stop students from winning competitions. Student are only able to come 3rd at highest in a Singles competition and are unable to feature in the Captains Prize and other big events. The reasoning for this is that students pay less in terms of Membership. Its only €180 for student where as its nearly €700 for adults. Yes it is great value for us that's for sure. But the problem is most students are annoyed that they are unable to win competitions. There is not ONE competition that a student member in the club can win. Many students come 3rd with a far better score than the winner. For example one week a student had 43 points and came 3rd and the winner had 38 points. The student got a massive cut for coming 3rd. The problem with this that if another student had 42 points that day he would have missed out on a prize which isn't really fair and would have been cut. Another problem is that a student can come from an away course and win and likewise we can go to another away course and win. A lot of students wouldn't mind paying and extra bit more if it entitled to win the competition. Would ye go playing every week even if ye weren't able to win and are only playing for one spot in the prizes??

Looking forward to a few opinions on this.

PARlance

Batman101 wrote: »

Hey lads, I've been a lurker on here for a long time and don't post too often but want some advice on a matter.

I'm a student member of my local golf course and have been a member for about 9 years now. There was a new rule brought in place last year to stop students from winning competitions. Student are only able to come 3rd at highest in a Singles competition and are unable to feature in the Captains Prize and other big events. The reasoning for this is that students pay less in terms of Membership. Its only €180 for student where as its nearly €700 for adults. Yes it is great value for us that's for sure. But the problem is most students are annoyed that they are unable to win competitions. There is not ONE competition that a student member in the club can win. Many students come 3rd with a far better score than the winner. For example one week a student had 43 points and came 3rd and the winner had 38 points. The student got a massive cut for coming 3rd. The problem with this that if another student had 42 points that day he would have missed out on a prize which isn't really fair and would have been cut. Another problem is that a student can come from an away course and win and likewise we can go to another away course and win. A lot of students wouldn't mind paying and extra bit more if it entitled to win the competition. Would ye go playing every week even if ye weren't able to win and are only playing for one spot in the prizes??

Looking forward to a few opinions on this.

If someone said that I'd save over nearly 75% on my sub then I think I'd happily be out of contention for the prizes...

I'm getting this in first before anyone else does
Yes, the scenario of winning a prize may not be that relevant or realistic for me

I think it's a fair system they have going, you're getting a great deal, you may miss out on 2,3,4 (?) prizes each year in your own club but you are free to win prizes elsewhere.
Perhaps they could do slightly more than they are doing at present, host a student event...have a student golfer of the year award or something.
But overall, I'd be happy with the way it is at present

Batman101

ajcurry123 wrote: »

If someone said that I'd save over nearly 75% on my sub then I think I'd happily be out of contention for the prizes...

I'm getting this in first before anyone else does
Yes, the scenario of winning a prize may not be that relevant or realistic for me

I think it's a fair system they have going, you're getting a great deal, you may miss out on 2,3,4 (?) prizes each year in your own club but you are free to win prizes elsewhere.

Its a great deal but many students are leaving because they can get the same deal in other clubs near by but they also get full privileges. The club is after losing out on a number of students who were playing off between 3-6 and in a couple of years there won't be any youngsters playing there.

Almaviva

Not sure is thisn was the thread, but topic pretty much done last year or the year before.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=80517895

Felexicon

Club I've just joined allows student members (I'm not one) to win competitions but they can only play off a maximum of a 14 handicap.


Don't think they are allowed to enter/win the Captains prize though

Batman101

Almaviva wrote: »

Not sure is thisn was the thread, but topic pretty much done last year or the year before.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=80517895

We have both student members and juvenile members! A juvenile is anyone under the age of 18 and a student it anyone over the age of 18 who is either in college or finishing 6th year. There are some members that could be 30 and are students because they are in 3rd level education. Juveniles were never allowed to win Senior Competitions but students were always able to win everything except for captains prize.

bustercherry

Do you have to pay competition fees? Are they the same as full members? If so tell them to go fcuk themselves.

Reminds me of a club I was in where they wanted to do away with the gross prize just because the same guy usually won it. Golf clubs and golf in general has some real petty sickening %$^&S with little to do with their time. A great game, pity about all the politics and halfwits.

If not then I wouldn't be bothered as you have the better deal :P

Almaviva

bustercherry wrote: »

If so tell them to go fcuk themselves.

Nonsense. You dont have to pay. If you dont like the rule dont play. Full members make the rules, and can make them anyway they wish. If you want to participate in changing them, then pay a full sub and become a full member.

Batman101

bustercherry wrote: »

Do you have to pay competition fees? Are they the same as full members? If so tell them to go fcuk themselves.

Reminds me of a club I was in where they wanted to do away with the gross prize just because the same guy usually won it. Golf clubs and golf in general has some real petty sickening %$^&S with little to do with their time. A great game, pity about all the politics and halfwits.

If not then I wouldn't be bothered as you have the better deal :P

Yes we all the pay the same fee for the competitions. There is a scenario which is going to pop up because there are a couple of lads who were full members for the last number of years and are now going back to education and will be paying student rates. I wonder what the outcome will be because these lads won't get full privileges and they won't be happy! The senior and junior cup teams are made up of more students than full members but yet when we go out to play we don't get treated right. A number of students are not playing with the club because they feel they should at least have a student competition once a week or give the students a chance to win some sort of singles even if its only during the week.

dvemail

Stupid rule. Most clubs might have something where a student can't win the captains or presidents prize or something to that effect which is fair enough. But what you seem to have at your club takes the piss tbh. All the club is doing is deterring what is the future of their club from keeping their membership.
As said earlier the least they could do is decrease the amount you have to pay for the competition.

Golfgraffix

Insane

We work with a number of organisations on the Grow the Game inititive and stuff like this sets it back.

Makes no sense to me, the club in question will be scayching their heads in 10 years when they are wondering why the membership is dying off and no young blood comonig through.

Curious what club is it?

J

golfwallah

Seems to me that your club, like many other member owned clubs, need to take a longer term view of maintaining a sustainable membership base. My experience over many years at AGMs, is that golfing issues, such as eligibility / funding for prizes takes up a lot of time, whereas strategic business issues such as member recruitment / retention warrant little or no discussion. Membership only becomes an issue when finances run low, at which point, it may become too late to do what it takes for a club to survive.

Survival requires clubs to take account of what most members want (not just a dominant few at AGMs) and, at the same time, ensuring that the interests of minority membership groups, including students, are not unreasonably suppressed.

In the good times, clubs had little difficulty in recruiting members, so this wasn’t a real issue. But nowadays, every market segment is important. There is a lot of competition for members – so dissatisfied members will just vote with their feet and go to other clubs.

Students may not be a large part of a club’s current membership, but this is the source of good inter-club golfers as well as future committee members. So treating them as “second class” members is not a good idea, IMHO.

Member owned clubs have strengths, such as providing a sense of community, operating on a break-even basis, opportunities at AGMs and through committee for members to influence how the club is run, availability of advice on golfing matters from GUI, ILGU, etc.

However, they also have weaknesses, such as management of the business side of the club by part time, voluntary committees that don’t have the time and/or skill sets to do what it takes to survive in a shrinking and more competitive golf market.

“Doing what it takes” includes putting together a strategic plan that balances short, medium and long term needs and much better communications between committees and members so that members can better appreciate all the issues before voting in short-term measures that can be seen as repressive of minorities.

Batman101

golfwallah wrote: »

Seems to me that your club, like many other member owned clubs, need to take a longer term view of maintaining a sustainable membership base. My experience over many years at AGMs, is that golfing issues, such as eligibility / funding for prizes takes up a lot of time, whereas strategic business issues such as member recruitment / retention warrant little or no discussion. Membership only becomes an issue when finances run low, at which point, it may become too late to do what it takes for a club to survive.

Survival requires clubs to take account of what most members want (not just a dominant few at AGMs) and, at the same time, ensuring that the interests of minority membership groups, including students, are not unreasonably suppressed.

In the good times, clubs had little difficulty in recruiting members, so this wasn’t a real issue. But nowadays, every market segment is important. There is a lot of competition for members – so dissatisfied members will just vote with their feet and go to other clubs.

Students may not be a large part of a club’s current membership, but this is the source of good inter-club golfers as well as future committee members. So treating them as “second class” members is not a good idea, IMHO.

Member owned clubs have strengths, such as providing a sense of community, operating on a break-even basis, opportunities at AGMs and through committee for members to influence how the club is run, availability of advice on golfing matters from GUI, ILGU, etc.

However, they also have weaknesses, such as management of the business side of the club by part time, voluntary committees that don’t have the time and/or skill sets to do what it takes to survive in a shrinking and more competitive golf market.

“Doing what it takes” includes putting together a strategic plan that balances short, medium and long term needs and much better communications between committees and members so that members can better appreciate all the issues before voting in short-term measures that can be seen as repressive of minorities.

Thanks for the reply. I can see the club having no members under the age of 25 or 30 in the next few years. The club is after losing many talented youngsters who have competed at national and provincial level under age. The club is full of ignorant snobs who think they can do what they like. I just wanted to hear some opinions, thanks.

Almaviva

Batman101 wrote: »

The club is full of ignorant snobs who think they can do what they like.

Not think they can. They can.

Almaviva

Batman101 wrote: »

The club is full of ignorant snobs.

A club is a voluntary association of like minded individuals. Either you are also an ignorant snob, or if not, then you probably shouldnt be in the club ? Or they aren't really ignorant snobs.

Kace

So what club is it then?

golfwallah

Almaviva wrote: »

Not think they can. They can.

Precisely – and that includes the power to sow the seeds of their own destruction!

I understand how people can feel frustrated when they see this kind of thing happening. But history shows that most organisations that go out of existence, have plenty of senior people / members who can “see it coming” long before it actually happens. The hard bit is doing something to prevent it happening, when the majority just want to play golf and leave business issues to a passive part time committee, operating on a “business as usual” basis.

Labelling each other as “snobs” or whatever, won’t really help either and diverts attention from the real issues of running a business in a drastically changed environment.

The reality is that at about 430 affiliated clubs in a shrinking Irish golf market, there are simply not enough members to ensure the survival of all clubs. And research shows that about 85% of member owned club income comes from membership. So with perhaps 100 too many clubs competing for fewer and fewer members, it’s not rocket science to see what is coming.

Aaahhhh ..... the sin of hubris!

mike12

A lot of these Rules in clubs are to stop Students/Junior members who have the summer off play every day and improve their handicap by 10 or 12 shots from winning every comp going.
1 year we had a guy pay his €150 membership get to over €800 in prizes. The guy now plays off scratch which is all he really wanted.
There has to be a balance can the Junior/Student members not organise there own comp each week? Do they not have their own committee?
Why not ask for all the entry fees the juniors put in go to a junior prize?

Mike

Batman101

mike12 wrote: »

A lot of these Rules in clubs are to stop Students/Junior members who have the summer off play every day and improve their handicap by 10 or 12 shots from winning every comp going.
1 year we had a guy pay his €150 membership get to over €800 in prizes. The guy now plays off scratch which is all he really wanted.
There has to be a balance can the Junior/Student members not organise there own comp each week? Do they not have their own committee?
Why not ask for all the entry fees the juniors put in go to a junior prize?

Mike

No there is no student/junior committee. Not all juniors can play in senior competitions, you have to have a handicap of 16 or lower if you are under the age of 18 to play in the competition

Most students who are out there are working for the summer or else they have left the country, I don't think that playing all summer has anything to do with it to be honest. Juniors spend a lot of time playing but they could never win the competition anyway. But some "students" are 24 and 25 and have kids they might only get out once a week or once every two weeks.

Batman101

Almaviva wrote: »

A club is a voluntary association of like minded individuals. Either you are also an ignorant snob, or if not, then you probably shouldnt be in the club ? Or they aren't really ignorant snobs.

Yes it is full of ignorants snobs. I can give you numerous examples to prove there ignorance. One of them being I was in a two ball with another student a couple of weeks ago, we both play of singles figures and were going pretty fast around the course. Then two committee members with two other lads walked up behind us on the 10th(they cut in and hadn't been playing from the 1st) and said "move over lads there's no place for ye here". We were a two ball and there was four of them.That is either ignorance or stupidity and I don't think its the latter. Btw, student members don't have to let full members through that's only juveniles. These lads think they own the place.

Jimdagym

Batman101 wrote: »

Yes it is full of ignorants snobs. I can give you numerous examples to prove there ignorance. One of them being I was in a two ball with another student a couple of weeks ago, we both play of singles figures and were going pretty fast around the course. Then two committee members with two other lads walked up behind us on the 10th(they cut in and hadn't been playing from the 1st) and said "move over lads there's no place for ye here". We were a two ball and there was four of them.That is either ignorance or stupidity and I don't think its the latter. Btw, student members don't have to let full members through that's only juveniles. These lads think they own the place.

Do they own the place?

Batman101

Jimdagym wrote: »

Do they own the place?

No they don't. There just retired lads with nothing to do!

Almaviva

Batman101 wrote: »

No they don't. There just retired lads with nothing to do!

I think Jimdagym's point is that if they are full members they possible do indeed own the place.

GreeBo

Batman101 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. I can see the club having no members under the age of 25 or 30 in the next few years. The club is after losing many talented youngsters who have competed at national and provincial level under age. The club is full of ignorant snobs who think they can do what they like. I just wanted to hear some opinions, thanks.

the club probably also has a lot of young people who have no idea of what's going on in the running of the club, don't realise the great membership deal they are getting and assume that anyone older than then is a stuck up snob.

a junior users just as much if not more of the course than a full member does, the reality is that, right now anyway, it's more important that the guys paying the full fees are happy then the young guys.

that's life.
sure it might be a short term view, but with clubs closing every week, a long term view might be missing the trees for the woods.

gorfield

You've been a student member for 9 years?????

For Paws

Why not have a 'student' entry fee for any event and a prize (funded from the student entry fees) for the best student ?

Batman101

gorfield wrote: »

You've been a student member for 9 years?????

No a juvenile for 6 and student for the last 3. Only 1 more year left as student so the issue isn't too bad for me but I represent the same view as all the students in terms of whats going on. I don't understand why they don't treat the younger people right?...like these people will be ones paying full membership in a number of years!

Almaviva

Batman101 wrote: »

treat the younger people right?...like these people will be ones paying full membership in a number of years!

Treat them as full members when they are paying full membership ?

Batman101

Almaviva wrote: »

Treat them as full members when they are paying full membership ?

Yes but many wont join a club as a full member if you spend all your younger days be literally "bullied" around the course. Having a separate students prize is a simple solution, it doesn't have to be a big prize just some sort of token to prove you have won, then leave the full members on there own. What ye think? That was proposed but was knocked back.

ThePower180

I believe that whoever has the best score should win no matter what!! The only exception I would have is the Captains Prize.

Almaviva

Batman101 wrote: »

Yes but many wont join a club as a full member if you spend all your younger days be literally "bullied" around the course. Having a separate students prize is a simple solution, it doesn't have to be a big prize just some sort of token to prove you have won, then leave the full members on there own. What ye think? That was proposed but was knocked back.

I think you/the students are a) looking to have a prize that someone else has decided you arent paying for, and b) you also want to have a guiding say in the setting of the rules, again without having paid for that right.

In short, you are already getting a good deal - stop trying to bite the hand that is feeding you.

Batman101

Almaviva wrote: »

I think you/the students are a) looking to have a prize that someone else has decided you arent paying for, and b) you also want to have a guiding say in the setting of the rules, again without having paid for that right.

In short, you are already getting a good deal - stop trying to bite the hand that is feeding you.

I mean let the student competition fees go into a separate pot and let them play for a prize to that value. It is the students that are paying for it and isn't costing the club anything in terms of buying prizes. The way it's going to club won't be there in a 10 years!

Almaviva

Batman101 wrote: »

I mean let the student competition fees go into a separate pot and let them play for a prize to that value. It is the students that are paying for it and isn't costing the club anything in terms of buying prizes. The way it's going to club won't be there in a 10 years!

Thats a separate student competition then? Many clubs do run those, at least through the summer months.

Almaviva

Batman101 wrote: »

The way it's going to club won't be there in a 10 years!

With respect, I think you have to leave those sorts of decisions to those who are running the show. In the end, he who pays the piper etc. The old retired snobs you mentioned earlier have probably (some lower, some higher I know, but take €1000 as an average) paid about €40,000 to the club in subs over the years. It is a rolling sum of many hundreds of members spending €40k that means you have a course to play at all. You will have yoru chance to state your case in future...but I feel you will find that your view will shift in time....

golfwallah

My view is that this is all about how you tend to view of the world, i.e. whether optimistic (willing to adapt to change) or pessimistic (inertia, keep things as they are) and whether you take a long term or short term view. By optimistic, I mean what business model you subscribe to – high cost / exclusive V low cost / available to all. Examples in the airline industry are Ryanair and Southwest Airlines V other European carriers of 20 years ago. In golf, Medinah (scene of last year’s Ryder Cup) changed from high to low cost in response to the 1920s depression and Hollystown slashed membership prices in 2013.

Making these choices is more straightforward for single owners, who can adopt quickly to whatever business model best suits to maximise their profits. But in member golf clubs, you need majority support to bring people along with change. Therefore, options need to be developed, explained, socialised & put to the members as to what kind of business model they want

Let’s face it, golf course operating costs (in common with most service industries) are largely fixed. It follows that to keep the cost per member as low as possible, you need as much throughput as possible (and most member golf clubs have oceans of under-utilized capacity). The marginal costs of 1 additional member is only €39 pa (GUI + Golfsure).

I would tend to look at the lifetime value of a customer – i.e. the Fergal Quinn business model, which tends to focus on giving value for money to as many customers as possible. It’s far easier / less expensive to retain existing customers than recruit new ones. For example, take 400 member base for 20 years = 8000 member years of which say 5 are students at any time x 20 x 50% reduction = 50 member years (= 0.5% of total membership revenue). This is a small price to pay to gain 5 x 20 x 20 = 2000 member years. And this is just one example of one market segment (namely student golfers) – there are lots of others (identifiable by use of STP marketing techniques – “Segmenting / Targeting / Positioning”).

One other consideration is the effect of competition and deals now being struck by banks. Put simply, there is too much capacity in market. Some clubs are facing receivership, in which case what is the resale value of a golf course & clubhouse (certainly not what was spent)? I’m sure a lot of boardsies know of the growing number of deals, quietly under negotiation with banks, whereby loans of €3.5m and more are being written down to between €600K and €1m). For those that go through, this will be a market changer for these clubs, enabling them to start anew and compete again with clubs that didn’t over-invest during the “boom” (just like their NAMA counterparts).

Not fair, you may say, but at the end of the day, there’s no perfect solution. It’s about choice – sure, there will always be room for more exclusive clubs, charging high fees but for the majority, it’s value for money golf they want and will continue to want for the foreseeable future.

ForeRight

Typical student.
Always looking for something for nothing

Golfgraffix

Golfwallah some good points but I don't think that they are really applicable here. Maybe more suited to a conversation on whether a club allows student members or not.

In this case they have taken the decision to allow student members. Not only are they taking the fees (albeit reduced) but also the comp fee and the student member effectively does not get to play in a competition environment.

When you think of this idea of growing the game a big part is getting younger golfers engaged in all levels of golf, in a way that stimulates them. Even if the 1st prize in a comp is only a 30 euro voucher it still adds legitimacy to a win. Without it and the prestige of the win I think no matter how much a student wins by it is devalued.

Infact I think the whole comp is devalued, I know if I won after coming second to a student it would not feel right.

I think clubs need to set aside a number of student places away each year with full right, view them as loss making in the short term but an investment in the long run.

J

Gerry T

Batman, I was a handicap secretary for a number of years, as someone else pointed out a juvenile member can during summer months go from a 20 Hcap to 12 Hcap in 2 months, and I have seen some go to a 6 Hcap ! This can be during the monthly medals, captains, presidents prizes. Hence the rule that young juvenile members are usually not allowed to win.
Clubs differ and a lot will have separate prizes for juniors and the juniors are not usually excluded from the best gross prize which I think is fair.
Your case is slightly different, as a "student" member I would guess your HCap is pretty representative of your play, i.e. if you are a 12 HCap its unlikely you will shoot level par. In that case you should be allowed to enter all competitions. I think your club has got it wrong.
But you do bring up a good point, with the recession more people find themselves going back to education in their 30's and 40's, crazy to think they they could have been full members of a club entering all competitions with the possibility of winning and now, faced with a financial setback (study and not working presumed) that they can't enter the very same competition ??? wtf. I think this is relatively new territory and club committees need to re-evaluate how this is managed.

As for your situation, at the very least your club should have a separate student/juvenile prize and I think students/juveniles should be allowed to win the best gross score also.

But why not do something about it, poll the student and juvenile members, select a spokesperson or persons and list what you would like to see changed. give that to a committee member, one that you feel has the respect of all committee members and try get him to see your side of things and ask that at the next committee meeting your requests be discussed ?

Like others here it would be interesting to know your club ? its not a name or shame type of thing as many clubs have issues in this regard, but you may get a more insightful reply if people knew which course your talking about.

Batman101

Gerry T wrote: »

Batman, I was a handicap secretary for a number of years, as someone else pointed out a juvenile member can during summer months go from a 20 Hcap to 12 Hcap in 2 months, and I have seen some go to a 6 Hcap ! This can be during the monthly medals, captains, presidents prizes. Hence the rule that young juvenile members are usually not allowed to win.
Clubs differ and a lot will have separate prizes for juniors and the juniors are not usually excluded from the best gross prize which I think is fair.
Your case is slightly different, as a "student" member I would guess your HCap is pretty representative of your play, i.e. if you are a 12 HCap its unlikely you will shoot level par. In that case you should be allowed to enter all competitions. I think your club has got it wrong.
But you do bring up a good point, with the recession more people find themselves going back to education in their 30's and 40's, crazy to think they they could have been full members of a club entering all competitions with the possibility of winning and now, faced with a financial setback (study and not working presumed) that they can't enter the very same competition ??? wtf. I think this is relatively new territory and club committees need to re-evaluate how this is managed.

As for your situation, at the very least your club should have a separate student/juvenile prize and I think students/juveniles should be allowed to win the best gross score also.

But why not do something about it, poll the student and juvenile members, select a spokesperson or persons and list what you would like to see changed. give that to a committee member, one that you feel has the respect of all committee members and try get him to see your side of things and ask that at the next committee meeting your requests be discussed ?

Like others here it would be interesting to know your club ? its not a name or shame type of thing as many clubs have issues in this regard, but you may get a more insightful reply if people knew which course your talking about.

Nearly all the students out there are playing to their handicap and there isn't many ridiculous scores. The thing with students is they don't want to mind their handicap, they want to get down as low as possible and to be able to say "I played off 5" etc. Its just going to be an interesting situation in next year when many full members become students again. I understand that it is a difficult problem for clubs to manage but some sort of fair agreement must be put in place.

Would raising the price of the student membership give you more entitlements or is that a bad idea?

PARlance

Gerry T wrote: »

Batman, I was a handicap secretary for a number of years, as someone else pointed out a juvenile member can during summer months go from a 20 Hcap to 12 Hcap in 2 months, and I have seen some go to a 6 Hcap ! This can be during the monthly medals, captains, presidents prizes. Hence the rule that young juvenile members are usually not allowed to win.
Clubs differ and a lot will have separate prizes for juniors and the juniors are not usually excluded from the best gross prize which I think is fair.
Your case is slightly different, as a "student" member I would guess your HCap is pretty representative of your play, i.e. if you are a 12 HCap its unlikely you will shoot level par. In that case you should be allowed to enter all competitions. I think your club has got it wrong.

Do you not think that would be incredibly hard to manage Gerry?
How do you split the Students who will improve over those that will remain constant?
Just because a student is play off 20 doesn't mean they will shoot down, just because they're off 12 doesn't mean they will have little variance.
I don't know if many Handicap Sec's would be willing to adopt this approach, as it would demand so much time. An individual review on each golfer would be needed, maybe several times a summer, to ascertain if they are an improver or a steady eddy

Gerry T wrote: »

But you do bring up a good point, with the recession more people find themselves going back to education in their 30's and 40's, crazy to think they they could have been full members of a club entering all competitions with the possibility of winning and now, faced with a financial setback (study and not working presumed) that they can't enter the very same competition ??? wtf. I think this is relatively new territory and club committees need to re-evaluate how this is managed.

As for your situation, at the very least your club should have a separate student/juvenile prize and I think students/juveniles should be allowed to win the best gross score also.

But why not do something about it, poll the student and juvenile members, select a spokesperson or persons and list what you would like to see changed. give that to a committee member, one that you feel has the respect of all committee members and try get him to see your side of things and ask that at the next committee meeting your requests be discussed ?

Like others here it would be interesting to know your club ? its not a name or shame type of thing as many clubs have issues in this regard, but you may get a more insightful reply if people knew which course your talking about.

I haven't thought a lot about this but I guess that at the very least there should be a student prize.

I can see where the club is coming from in not allowing them win the main prize.

In an ideal world, Students would be allowed pay a reduced rate and be eligible to win all comps, and no full members would have an issue...
However, that's an ideal world, and I guess the club have introduced this due to some pressure, or for some valid reasons, to keep full members happy.

I completely agree golf needs to attract young people, and that a good club should do its best to do so.
The point about attracting these students that will help the club in future is a completely valid one and makes sense.
However, I'm guessing that a lot of clubs, like businesses, are not in the position to have the luxury of such forward planning strategies.
If they can't keep their head above water in the short term then what good is future planning... and this leads me to see where the club is coming from with this.

If enough full members want it this way, and have said they'd move etc if it changed, then the club is in a very tricky position.

The student rate is about 1/4 of the full rate.
Lets say 5 or 10 members have been very vocal about leaving, I'm guessing the club would find it hard to attract 20 -40 students to replace these (in monetary terms)
Likewise, if 20 students leave because of this, then it's only the equivalent of 5 full time members.

Added to this, the club may also feel that Students are less likely to become full members in this climate so the future planning argument may be thrown out the window. A high % of recently graduated students I know would have a very long commute to make a Saturday morning comp tee time. I don't know if they'd be doing that commute from Melbourne each week
A joke, but I do think it is a valid point, there is much less of a chance students will progress to full members after their studies these days.

If the club in question is outside of the cities, then it's even less likely that a student will progress to full time member.
For those likely to stay, they will probably be getting a job, if lucky, in Dublin, Cork etc.
Not much help to a club in Mayo that.

I feel the frustration of the OP, but I can think of many valid reasons why the club has gone down this route.

Gerry T

Batman101 wrote: »

Would raising the price of the student membership give you more entitlements or is that a bad idea?

I'm not sure that's the issue really, clubs struggle for revenue as green fees drop off. If they push up student fees then the student numbers will fall. Total revenue from that group may not increase.

Students by nature have less money so most clubs allow them to pay less annual subs. My dad's a member of beech park, when they reach 70 I think, then they don't have to pay any annual sub-nice one. But I think its ok for students to pay less, its only a couple of years and when they work they then pay the full fee, that's fair. Clubs have to nurture the younger members and make them feel equal -- not a separate group, that's wrong.

But if you pay the same competition fee as everyone else then you should not be excluded from winning, I'm guessing you play to win, its about the bragging right's I don't know anyone that says "I won a golf bag...or a piece of crystal" who cares. I would love to say "I won the captains".. maybe one day !!

Gerry T

ajcurry123 wrote: »

Do you not think that would be incredibly hard to manage Gerry?

To be clear a juvenile and student in this case is different. Juvenile say under 18 and student over 18 but at 3rd level.

For students I would guess their hcap is pretty representative if they have been members of a club for years and I believe that they should be allowed full entry into a comp if they pay the same comp entry fee.

I agree with you that its very hard to manage, Juveniles are different to ordinary members because a 13 or 14 yr old with say an 18 hcap can very easily in 2 months, living on the course midweek as they regularly do, end up playing to a single digit hcap while their hcap may have only being cut to 16. I believe that's why they are excluded from winning big competitions. I'm not suggesting that juviniles are protecting their hcap, again I think they want a low hcap for bragging rights. It's just the system for cutting does not keep up with a youngsters progress

The hcap is cut through qualifying scores and that's relatively slow if you progress very quickly. If he's on the course all week he may not be there on Sundays, hence no qualifying score. General play cut is limit to 2 strokes and in special circumstances 3 strokes in a yr, again not sufficient. If we are talking about a new member with a new hcap then the committee can at a meeting cut that player by far more, but this does require more than hearsay and usually reviewing returned cards is required.

The easiest way to manage a juvenile, which is adopted by most clubs is to restrict them from winning the portion of the competition where the hcap is supposed to level the playing field (first place). So a separate juvenile category should be provided and most definitely they should not be excluded from best gross category.

The alternative is hcap secretaries give juvenile members a max of say a 12 hcap, but that's not really fair either. There isn't an easy solution. most clubs go for the juvenile members being excluded from winning the main event but having their own category and possibly the best gross category. I don't think juveniles are excluded from winning because of the prize.

fullstop

Almaviva wrote: »

Nonsense. You dont have to pay. If you dont like the rule dont play. Full members make the rules, and can make them anyway they wish. If you want to participate in changing them, then pay a full sub and become a full member.

That's the attitude you're up against OP. Part of the reason half the clubs in the country are up the ****ter.

Wichita Lineman

To be fair I think full members are getting a raw deal here. In every club in Ireland they are the ones paying the top whack and rarely get reductions such as are offered to new members. Invariably they are the backbone of the club. These are the members who make it possible for everyone else to play at reduced rates and I've seen quite enough rubbish on here about how students are the future. Unfortunately for clubs their students of today usually become someone elses members of tomorrow due to the fact that they are more likely to be moving around than an older working person. I'm trying very hard here not to be stereotyping anyone by the way and I know there will always be someone not fitting into the category everyone would like.

I reckon a lot of students have as much disposable income as I do after paying my subs, comp fees, mortgage, household charge, bin charges, tax, social charges, prsi, vhi, train ticket etc etc etc etc etc but yet they pay far less than I do. I appreciate some students wont be in a comfortable position and generally have no objections to the reduced fee but I really cant understand why someone getting a fantastic deal is still unhappy about it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I'm just giving you mine and not saying I am right and OP is wrong this is just my take on it.

Gerry T

Andy, I'm in a similar situation, joined a club all most 20 yr's ago. So I'm not in the category of receiving new member deals which I see every day. 15 yr's ago clubs were looking to reduce membership and take more from green fees, that's reversed in recent years. For a club to survive it needs more members to cover the base costs, so young people need to be attracted to the game, students are the future, otherwise more clubs will close.

So clubs do deals, not just for students - if they do get in cheaper, what's wrong with that ? it keeps your golf course going, without them your fees would probably increase. Its wrong to take them in on a deal and then treat them differently based on fee paid. The deal is there because they are in full time education--no income !

The decision to restrict a student from winning first place I believe is based more on the assumption that the handicap system does not keep pace with students rate of progress. I really don't think its due to the fact that they get reduced fee's.

A new member in your club, was probably a student member in some other club.

diomed

I haven't read the whole thread.
If someone plays in a competition they should be eligible for all prizes.
If the club doesn't want them to win do not allow them enter.
If it is a handicap problem then sort the handicaps.

Almaviva

diomed wrote: »

If someone plays in a competition they should be eligible for all prizes.
If the club doesn't want them to win do not allow them enter.

Is possibly a reasonable solution. In reality, it is giving juniors/student even less so there is a risk that they will bitch about that also. But it might be better than the halfway house of play-but-cant-win which gives them the misunderstanding that they are being treated unfairly.

diomed wrote: »

If it is a handicap problem then sort the handicaps.

It is fundamentally a handicap problem alright. But that cant just be sorted as you suggest. Junior/student handicaps are simply more volatile. Many arent - but it only takes one every now and again to win when playing off a handicap clearly out of step with their skill for people to feel that a big competition has been effectively ruined.

FixdePitchmark

Batman , if you don't mind me asking , just to give the debate an example .

Do you intend to join the club as a full member in the future ?

A friend of mine was a junior and student member of a club for 20 years , then left when he moved for work, love reasons . That is his option, but I'm sure the members would have looked on him as a dead cert to join. You can understand why lads get pissed off with student members who get a life of golf at very low rates , but no pay back.
By the way, not talking about you there, just giving another view.

trishasaffron

Am a full member paying over €2k p.a. to be able to play at peak times and as a result I expect to have preferential treatment to compensate for my very limited playing opportunities + high sub. If I paid a lesser membership I would expect to have limitations on my entitlements including the right to win competitions. (In fact I recently got 2nd in a competition although I had the best score as I hadn't enough qualifying scores in - I had no problem at all with that.)

The arguments about coddling juniors, students, juveniles and the other multiple categories in order to grow members is specious in my opinion. Very few people end up in the club they joined as junior members - all those subs foregone & no return:(

golfwallah

trishasaffron wrote: »

Am a full member paying over €2k p.a. to be able to play at peak times and as a result I expect to have preferential treatment to compensate for my very limited playing opportunities + high sub. If I paid a lesser membership I would expect to have limitations on my entitlements including the right to win competitions. (In fact I recently got 2nd in a competition although I had the best score as I hadn't enough qualifying scores in - I had no problem at all with that.)

The arguments about coddling juniors, students, juveniles and the other multiple categories in order to grow members is specious in my opinion. Very few people end up in the club they joined as junior members - all those subs foregone & no return:(

If I were paying over €2K pa for membership, I too would expect preferential playing rights over other member categories. But my annual sub for a Dublin based club, 9 km from where I live and with pretty good facilities is around half that figure.

Only a very small number of higher end clubs can afford to charge fees of €2K+. I daresay such clubs represent only about 5% – 10% of the market and I suspect they have little difficulty in recruiting new members to replace natural wastage. The rest – i.e. the majority of member clubs are not in this category (a quick glance at prices in the “available membership” sections on the GUI site will confirm this).

These ordinary member clubs are finding it extremely hard to replace leavers and, with membership revenue accounting for 85% of revenues in most member clubs, many are on the very edge of financial viability.

In such situations, committee priorities are on how to boost diminishing membership revenues to ensure club survival. So they can’t afford to target just one market segment (i.e. those prepared to pay €2K+ for exclusivity), they have to find ways to fill their course (and their coffers). The obvious way to do this is to identify what different groupings of people want and can afford and put together bundles of playing / membership options that best fits these needs. Such market segments can include not only students / juniors, but also different young adult categories, beginners, new members, distance members, 5 / 6 day member deals, etc. etc.

The difficult bit is how to communicate such issues with members, most of whom wouldn’t be aware or interested in club finances, and get majority agreement on how to proceed.

These issues are well covered in a joint GUI / ILGU / PGA publication “Promoting Golf Club Membership”: http://www.ilgu.ie/uploads/docs/2138_ClubMembership.pdf

Almaviva

I think the issue of subs and where revenue comes from, full members of the future, etc, is a bit of a red herring - particularly when espoused by those who already have an axe to grind with the club management regarding junior prizes.

Subs for different categories of golfers and the continuing struggle to adapt to the new world and be one of the clubs that survives the cull is an interesting and live topic in Irish golf.

But the issue here really does come back to the handicap issue at its root, and without a very radical overhaul of the Congu system, unlikely one to which we can expect any improvement. Leaving the prohibiting of juniors/students winning some prizes as a valid levelling of the handicap playing field.