Petrol station payment - card not accepted/invalid, what happens?

arleitiss

Hey, not that it happened to me but what happens if your credit card is declined at petrol station and you dont have cash with you? I mean they can't just pump petrol out of car as it would come out as mixed already, so what happens?

biko

You leave your car there and walk to a cash machine?
If your card is declined there too it's time to ring a friend.

seamus

You give the station your name & address, and you drive to the nearest cash point and straight back with the money.

It's only theft if you don't intend on paying for it.

MarkR

As above, it happens, so they have to have a sensible policy for it.

Ash.J.Williams

i think garages have a form for you to fill in and you simply pay them back, sh1t happens.

Eric Cartman

Pay at pump machines will take payment up to 99 euro even if youve no money on your card, it forces an overdraft which the bank will make you pay for but can be handy if you're really stuck

Drexel

i seen a thread on boards a few years ago and the guy had filled his car and had forgotten his wallet. He offered to leave his iphone and his name/address. The called the cops on him. Dunno what happened after that. Harsh from the petrol station

djimi

jonny666 wrote: »

i seen a thread on boards a few years ago and the guy had filled his car and had forgotten his wallet. He offered to leave his iphone and his name/address. The called the cops on him. Dunno what happened after that. Harsh from the petrol station

I imagine the Gardai told them off for wasting their time.

LowKeyReturn

seamus wrote: »

You give the station your name & address, and you drive to the nearest cash point and straight back with the money.

It's only theft if you don't intend on paying for it.

4.—(1) Subject to section 5 , a person is guilty of theft if he or she dishonestly appropriates property without the consent of its owner and with the intention of depriving its owner of it.

(5) In this section—

“appropriates”, in relation to property, means usurps or adversely interferes with the proprietary rights of the owner of the property;

“depriving” means temporarily or permanently depriving.

So it comes down to the consent of the owner not a right to be disorganised. If the garage aren't happy for the person to leave the forecourt then it's time to ring a friend.

However it's more likely to be making off without payment

8.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), a person who, knowing that payment on the spot for any goods obtained or any service done is required or expected, dishonestly makes off without having paid as required or expected and with the intention of avoiding payment on the spot is guilty of an offence.

The garage can actually effect an arrest under this section.

The dishonest intent is satisfied at the point the garage tells you you can't leave with the fuel.

MarkR wrote: »

As above, it happens, so they have to have a sensible policy for it.

As above, the sensible policy is expecting customers to have payment for goods and services they require. If the card machine is out an overtly places sign.

All this said, practically speaking I doubt anyone would object to someone driving off to go and get cash after all there will be CCTV and a record of the reg. What I objected to was the tone of it's some sort of right rather than time to be exceptionally apologetic in making a very polite request to the garage. I may have picked people up wrong if so sorry.

ironclaw

LowKeyReturn wrote: »

All this said, practically speaking I doubt anyone would object to someone driving off to go and get cash after all there will be CCTV and a record of the reg. What I objected to was the tone of it's some sort of right rather than time to be exceptionally apologetic in making a very polite request to the garage. I may have picked people up wrong if so sorry.

That said, there is so many if's. Would someone come back? Is the name and address real? Is the reg real? Pretty easy to fake either if your not from the area and have no intention of coming back. Realistically, your chances of being caught are slim.

seamus

LowKeyReturn wrote: »

The garage can actually effect an arrest under this section.

The dishonest intent is satisfied at the point the garage tells you you can't leave with the fuel.

The dishonest intent test fails in the OP's scenario. There is at no point any dishonesty nor intent to deprive the station of the petrol. The temporary deprivation is unintentional unless the person drives up the forecourt knowing that they don't have the money to pay.

In reality it's more of a civil matter, the same as eating a meal in a restaurant and then realising you don't have money on you. The product has been consumed and cannot be easily returned to the owner, which means that they now have a debt outstanding. I believe the same would apply in the case of petrol - the petrol is deemed "consumed" once it's pumped into the tank.


As mentioned, there was a similar thread recently enough about this. The Gardai were called. When they arrived the car owner was told to head off and get cash while the garage attendant got a complete bollocking for wasting Garda time.

djimi

ironclaw wrote: »

That said, there is so many if's. Would someone come back? Is the name and address real? Is the reg real? Pretty easy to fake either if your not from the area and have no intention of coming back. Realistically, your chances of being caught are slim.

They have your reg, so provided that is no fake/cloned then they will be able to track you. Obviously cloned/faked reg plates are going to be an issue, but for the genuine case its not worth risking it when they can track you afterwards.

challengemaster

seamus wrote: »

It's only theft if you don't intend on paying for it.

"The petrol was only resting in my tank" :pac:

seamus

ironclaw wrote: »

That said, there is so many if's. Would someone come back? Is the name and address real? Is the reg real? Pretty easy to fake either if your not from the area and have no intention of coming back. Realistically, your chances of being caught are slim.

If someone intended on stealing petrol and had a fake reg, they wouldn't walk into the station and play the poor mouth, getting themselves caught on CCTV. They'd just fill the tank and drive off.

You can pretty much take it for granted that if someone goes to the trouble of coming into the shop and offering ID, then they're going to come back.

DeanAustin

jonny666 wrote: »

i seen a thread on boards a few years ago and the guy had filled his car and had forgotten his wallet. He offered to leave his iphone and his name/address. The called the cops on him. Dunno what happened after that. Harsh from the petrol station

Happened me on the Texaco on the Malahide Road a year or so ago and yer man couldn't have been sounder (more sound maybe?) about it.

I left him my phone and went straight back. Took a while given I was living in Finglas and it was rush hour but, as I said, he couldn't have been nicer and he used common sense.

Irishcrx

Happend to me once, forgot I had put my wallet in my other jeans or something. Just went in showed ID, gave my name and address and explained I had no wallet. Went down to the house and came back. I'd say it happens quite a bit.

pa990

Happened to me lately.
I got 144L of petrol (long story don't ask) and I went to pay with my fuel card, but it kept declining the card. So the shop assistant put it thru as two seperate transactions bit it would only take the first transaction.

I left my name and number, got a receipt stating what was paid and what was owed. Went back later that night and used the sane fuel card to pay for the outstanding amount.

Simples

Kenny Logins

Happened to me last week - both their card payment system and cash machine were out of action. I had to fill out a form and return to pay later (5 minutes later as it happens, cash machine across the road).

LowKeyReturn

seamus wrote: »

In reality it's more of a civil matter, the same as eating a meal in a restaurant and then realising you don't have money on you. The product has been consumed and cannot be easily returned to the owner, which means that they now have a debt outstanding. I believe the same would apply in the case of petrol - the petrol is deemed "consumed" once it's pumped into the tank.

Guildford V. Lockyer 1975 Crim. L.R. 235

seamus wrote: »

As mentioned, there was a similar thread recently enough about this. The Gardai were called. When they arrived the car owner was told to head off and get cash while the garage attendant got a complete bollocking for wasting Garda time.

Oh the gaurds giving out as they had to do some actual work... the mind boggles. If I had a doubt over someone being genuine I'd have called the guards too, although as I've indicated common sense should prevail.

ted1

Happened me the other day, maxed out the company credit card then tried to pay with petrol. I just called the office and they gave the garage a different card over the phone.

So the easiest option is to call someone and get them to pay over the phone

SniperSight

Generally, from experience....lots of it, staff will use common sense. You can tell a genuine person from a scumbag tea leaf.
If a person is willing to leave a €300 phone for €50 petrol, or an €80 passport for €40 fuel, you accept it. It happens, its expected to happen now and then, or at least should be.

Now, if someone comes in and gives you their "details" and claims "Oh I don't have a phone number" or hands you the insurance cert for a different car (has happened) then that most valuable of assets of common sense comes into play again and you insist that its paid for there and then, be it walking to an ATM or calling a friend.

The staff generally want to help people out, but they've got to watch their own back too/first!

JJJJNR

Happened to my mrs today, there was an issue with her card and they wouldn't let her go, threatened to call the garda also, 3 kids in the car at 27c heat for 1 hrs while she was trying to contact me (i was up a mountain) over 15 euro's worth of petrol. We spend over 130 a week there on petrol and diesel, plus the extra bits (milk, bread, coffee etc) totally pissed off at them over it, they know her as she is a regular there, I wouldn't mind if it was 100 euros worth of petrol with an out of towner or something.

dh0011

JJJJNR wrote: »

Happened to my mrs today, there was an issue with her card and they wouldn't let her go, threatened to call the garda also, 3 kids in the car at 27c heat for 1 hrs while she was trying to contact me (i was up a mountain) over 15 euro's worth of petrol. We spend over 130 a week there on petrol and diesel, plus the extra bits (milk, bread, coffee etc) totally pissed off at them over it, they know her as she is a regular there, I wouldn't mind if it was 100 euros worth of petrol with an out of towner or something.

if i was you/ your mrs I wouldnt be going back again.

OldmanMondeo

It happened me a few years ago. Foxhunter in lucan, some construction work cut the phone lines, so card machines and ATM where down. I had filled the tank, went to pay but couldn't. The garage took my details from my driver licence and my reg, got me to sign it and gave me a few days to call back with money. I called back and paid up, no worries.

As pointed out, crap happens.

CiniO

JJJJNR wrote: »

Happened to my mrs today, there was an issue with her card and they wouldn't let her go, threatened to call the garda also, 3 kids in the car at 27c heat for 1 hrs while she was trying to contact me (i was up a mountain) over 15 euro's worth of petrol. We spend over 130 a week there on petrol and diesel, plus the extra bits (milk, bread, coffee etc) totally pissed off at them over it, they know her as she is a regular there, I wouldn't mind if it was 100 euros worth of petrol with an out of towner or something.

Just out of curiosity how can petrol station staff prevent someone from going.
If petrol station attendant told me I can't go anywhere, how would he stop me?
He can not arrest me, as he is not a gard, so I'm free to leave...
Or am I not?

ardmacha

Detaining people is one thing, but a petrol station would be fully entitled to obstruct your car leaving, as it contains fuel not paid for.

This calling the Guards is all very fine, but I'd imagine the Guards would be less than impressed to be called out when a citizen was a regular customer who had forgotten their wallet and who accepted the debt.

LowKeyReturn

CiniO wrote: »

Just out of curiosity how can petrol station staff prevent someone from going.
If petrol station attendant told me I can't go anywhere, how would he stop me?
He can not arrest me, as he is not a gard, so I'm free to leave...
Or am I not?

If you did leave, the may be able to arrest you under the legislation I quoted above. That said they would be fairly unwise to do so for a number of reasons including that Seamus and myself disagree on whether a crime is committed, let alone two lawyers, I know there are arguments on both sides.

The power of arrest is not limited to members of the AGS.

djimi

LowKeyReturn wrote: »

If you did leave, the may be able to arrest you under the legislation I quoted above. That said they would be fairly unwise to do so for a number of reasons including that Seamus and myself disagree on whether a crime is committed, let alone two lawyers, I know there are arguments on both sides.

The power of arrest is not limited to members of the AGS.

There isnt a Garda in the land who would arrest somebody for making a genuine mistake like this, especially if they have been forthcoming and made the mistake known and were making an effort to resolve the issue. And no court in the land would take more than a minute to throw it out. Definitely one of this times when common sense would overrule legislation.

knotknowbody

dh0011 wrote: »

if i was you/ your mrs I wouldnt be going back again.

+1, I would also call in one last time and explain to the manager/owner why they were losing the custom of a regular and well known customer, the staff member/s involved should have known better.

teacosy

Filled the car with petrol last week and went to pay, as you do. I only had my credit card on me. Their machine was just after failing, so I looked at the guy and he pointed at the cash machine. I had to pay a €2.50 fee to take cash out on the card. What were my options?

LowKeyReturn

djimi wrote: »

There isnt a Garda in the land who would arrest somebody for making a genuine mistake like this, especially if they have been forthcoming and made the mistake known and were making an effort to resolve the issue. And no court in the land would take more than a minute to throw it out. Definitely one of this times when common sense would overrule legislation.

There's a genuine mistake and then there is being asked by the petrol station to ring a friend and get them to make payment. I have no idea why people seem to think businesses are there to pander to people. People seem to think just because its a shop, the kids can run around, they can be rude and above all it's the SHOPS fault when the customer makes an error.

The petrol station are well within there rights to ask the person to meet then half way, or indeed they can be awkward if they like. Otherwise I could just walk in to your gaffe and start removing things. It's their petrol, you havent paid them for it and it's not THEIR fault you can't keep track of your own finances.

Would it be nice if the local petrol station cut you some slack from time to time? Yes of course, but why do people think they've some god given right to it?

The guards would be required to uphold the law. This can easily be done by escorting someone to a cash-point or at least taking the persons details and verifying them. Lets not forget the company that owns the shop is paying it's taxes as well. Asking the customer to hold on while the guards get there isn't at all unreasonable.

They seem fine in enforcing payment for cabbies who arrive at the station with someone who hasn't paid the fare - the difference, the cabbie didn't take them too far from the nice warm station, where the tea is.

LowKeyReturn

teacosy wrote: »

Filled the car with petrol last week and went to pay, as you do. I only had my credit card on me. Their machine was just after failing, so I looked at the guy and he pointed at the cash machine. I had to pay a €2.50 fee to take cash out on the card. What were my options?

Ask him for €2.50 off the price of the petrol, perfectly reasonable under the circumstances. If he refuses then you're in a different situation to someone who can't provide payment. They should also have 'fallback' processing with the old 80s swipes - they do still exist and are given to merchants.

djimi

LowKeyReturn wrote: »

There's a genuine mistake and then there is being asked by the petrol station to ring a friend and get them to make payment. I have no idea why people seem to think businesses are there to pander to people. People seem to think just because its a shop, the kids can run around, they can be rude and above all it's the SHOPS fault when the customer makes an error.

Where has anyone suggested that?

LowKeyReturn wrote: »

The petrol station are well within there rights to ask the person to meet then half way, or indeed they can be awkward if they like. Otherwise I could just walk in to your gaffe and start removing things. It's their petrol, you havent paid them for it and it's not THEIR fault you can't keep track of your own finances.

Would it be nice if the local petrol station cut you some slack from time to time? Yes of course, but why do people think they've some god given right to it?

The guards would be required to uphold the law. This can easily be done by escorting someone to a cash-point or at least taking the persons details and verifying them. Lets not forget the company that owns the shop is paying it's taxes as well. Asking the customer to hold on while the guards get there isn't at all unreasonable.

Gardai have better things to be doing with their time than escorting someone to a cash point at the request of a petrol station because they forgot their wallet. I would be mightly pissed off if I thought that my local Gardai were having their time wasted like this for the sake of €20 petrol that the customer fully intends to pay for.

Its not a god given right; its common sense. If someone wants to steal petrol then they will get back in their car and drive off; they will not come into the shop and make up a story about forgetting their money. Its a mistake that we call can, and quite possibly will, make at some point (I know I certainly have in the past), so common sense would suggest that you just get on with and find the best solution without having to resort to ridiculous nonsense like trying to get the Gardai involved or detaining people until they can come up with the funds.

LowKeyReturn

djimi wrote: »

Where has anyone suggested that?

Is pretty much answered by:

djimi wrote: »

Gardai have better things to be doing with their time than escorting someone to a cash point at the request of a petrol station because they forgot their wallet. I would be mightly pissed off if I thought that my local Gardai were having their time wasted like this for the sake of €20 petrol that the customer fully intends to pay for.

Its not a god given right; its common sense. If someone wants to steal petrol then they will get back in their car and drive off; they will not come into the shop and make up a story about forgetting their money. Its a mistake that we call can, and quite possibly will, make at some point (I know I certainly have in the past), so common sense would suggest that you just get on with and find the best solution without having to resort to ridiculous nonsense like trying to get the Gardai involved or detaining people until they can come up with the funds.

Fair enough you have your opinion and I have mine. Having worked in retail for many years people are chancers. Petrol stations seem to get the worst of it from what I've heard tbh. The Gardai shouldn't have to be called but again the petrol station have a right to do it if they feel it's needed.

It's not the petrol station wasting people's time it's the person who can;t organise themselves and the refuses to take responsibility for it and get someone on the phone with a credit card, or god forbid walk down the road to a cash point.

angeldelight

Happened to me a while ago - a direct debit I wasn't expecting went out and I didn't have the money in my account. It was in the garage near my parents so I had to call my dad to come and pay. Which he did while telling everyone in the shop what happened and wasn't I lucky he was such a great father. Still haven't lived it down

djimi

How has anything that I have said suggested that I think it is the shops fault that the person cannot pay?

If the person refuses to pay then the Gardai should be called. If the person says that they will pay but does not come back then the Gardai should be called. If the person says that they have forgotten their wallet but that they are prepared to leave their details (which can be obtained from CCTV footage anyway) and will be back in ten minutes, then there is no sense in calling the Gardai, and quite frankly it is a complete waste of their time.

The idea of detaining someone while they try and get somebody on the phone with a credit card or whatever is absolutely laughable. What sort of a paranoid world do you live in? Aside from anything else, nobody with any degree of intellegence would hand over their credit card details over the phone to a petrol station.

arleitiss

It would be pretty cool if petrol stations could give you like a membership and allow to have petrol bills/invoices sent home :v that would be great

wandatowell

Would ye leave ye're driving license with the cashier while you went off and got the readies?


It seemed like the logical solution but then I thought about it

FaganJr

arleitiss wrote: »

It would be pretty cool if petrol stations could give you like a membership and allow to have petrol bills/invoices sent home :v that would be great

They do, its called an account.....

djimi

arleitiss wrote: »

It would be pretty cool if petrol stations could give you like a membership and allow to have petrol bills/invoices sent home :v that would be great

Never heard of a fuel card?!!

djimi

wandatowell wrote: »

Would ye leave ye're driving license with the cashier while you went off and got the readies?


It seemed like the logical solution but then I thought about it

No. God knows what a stranger might do with a document like that.

LowKeyReturn

djimi wrote: »

The idea of detaining someone while they try and get somebody on the phone with a credit card or whatever is absolutely laughable. What sort of a paranoid world do you live in? Aside from anything else, nobody with any degree of intellegence would hand over their credit card details over the phone to a petrol station.

So the petrol station is being paranoid but the person who gets a phone call from their best mate explaining the situation isn't?

How exactly do you think the petrol station bill the card when it's presented? Might it be, perchance, the long number on the card. The CVC is easily taken if needed and disputes involving non-pin transactions are almost always decided in favour of the customer.

Anyway this is going way off topic. Your reaction to a petrol station exercising it's rights is exactly why some will chose to call the gaurds as a matter of course.

As for leaving the driving license/passport that's something they shouldn't be doing as they are official documents.

djimi

LowKeyReturn wrote: »

So the petrol station is being paranoid but the person who gets a phone call from their best mate explaining the situation isn't?

How exactly do you think the petrol station bill the card when it's presented? Might it be, perchance, the long number on the card. The CVC is easily taken if needed and disputes involving non-pin transactions are almost always decided in favour of the customer.

Anyway this is going way off topic. Your reaction to a petrol station exercising it's rights is exactly why some will chose to call the gaurds as a matter of course.

As for leaving the driving license/passport that's something they shouldn't be doing as they are official documents.

Are you in the habit of handing your credit card details to strangers over the phone? I sure am not...

In store, the card is read in the chip and pin reader; its not like the cashier has the time or opportunity to note down all the relevant details and if this system wasnt in place then I would be reluctant to hand over my card.

You seem to think that everyone who forgets their wallet (and is honest enough to admit it to the cashier), and by the sounds of it would prefer to use common sense in dealing with the situation when it arises, is some kind of master criminal who has set out to defraud the garage by being as honest as possible about it. News flash; the overwhelming majority of people who admit to forgetting their wallet/cash are genuine, and will come back when they say they will. There are procedure in place to deal with driveoffs, so if the person doesnt come back then you handle it in the same way that you would any other drive off. But to suggest that a station should try to involve the Gardai from the start (even if technically they have the right to) is simply laughable.

jamie72

ted1 wrote: »

Happened me the other day, maxed out the company credit card then tried to pay with petrol. I just called the office and they gave the garage a different card over the phone.

So the easiest option is to call someone and get them to pay over the phone

A garage I know of got stung with this, the guy used fake card numbers off the internet.

LowKeyReturn

djimi wrote: »

Are you in the habit of handing your credit card details to strangers over the phone? I sure am not...

Again, if your wife/best mate rings you at a petrol station and explains the situation and you're saying I'm paranoid. You also think that the petrol station should assume all the risk when this perfectly reasonable solution is refused.

djimi wrote: »

In store, the card is read in the chip and pin reader; its not like the cashier has the time or opportunity to note down all the relevant details and if this system wasnt in place then I would be reluctant to hand over my card.

Stop handing over your card ASAP - All your details are printed on the PDQ receipt. It's only obscured on the customer copy. The only additional thing they need is the CVC which is three digits long - easily remembered. PIN is easily taken from a doctored machine.

djimi wrote: »

You seem to think that everyone who forgets their wallet (and is honest enough to admit it to the cashier), and by the sounds of it would prefer to use common sense in dealing with the situation when it arises, is some kind of master criminal who has set out to defraud the garage by being as honest as possible about it. News flash; the overwhelming majority of people who admit to forgetting their wallet/cash are genuine, and will come back when they say they will. There are procedure in place to deal with driveoffs, so if the person doesnt come back then you handle it in the same way that you would any other drive off. But to suggest that a station should try to involve the Gardai from the start (even if technically they have the right to) is simply laughable.

Your lack of knowledge about credit card transactions is laughable. I'm glad we're amusing each other so much.

If you read my various posts you'll see that I've suggested common sense should prevail. I've linked the legislation showing you where they have the right involve the guards. I've pointed out similar situation in which the guards are only too happy to oblige. You OTOH hand have pointed out all the things you wouldn't do in that situation.

I've tried to explain to you that attitudes of customers is what will put most places on their guard -thank you for making my point so well for me.

LowKeyReturn

Look this has all got a little heated, no personal attack intended. I should have left it at you have your opinion and I have mine.

wonski

LowKeyReturn wrote: »

It's their petrol, you havent paid them for it and it's not THEIR fault you can't keep track of your own finances.

I keep track of my finances, but my bank fails from time to time. Should I be arrested because my card was declined?
I had my card declined few times despite me being well in credit at the time. Had money not delivered at atm more than once.
This happens - there is no need to blame customer for this. And i doubt there are many chancers trying to get free petrol by giving petrol station driving license and all other details. You don't even need - or want - to give them your phone when card is declined. It isn't part of their operation to keep deposits.
This happens in shops/petrol stations and tolls all over the world. You get a docket and pay later - if not they will start debt collection/recovery.

After few incidents I had I learned cash is the king and always have some notes just in case - especially when going abroad or far from home here in Ireland.

pete4130

Happened to me in Tesco Finglas a few years ago. Forgot my wallet. They have you on camera, your reg and I showed her ID and gave my address. I was told I had a week to pay it. I was back within the hour to pay.

LowKeyReturn

wonski wrote: »

I keep track of my finances, but my bank fails from time to time. Should I be arrested because my card was declined?
I had my card declined few times despite me being well in credit at the time. Had money not delivered at atm more than once.
This happens - there is no need to blame customer for this. And i doubt there are many chancers trying to get free petrol by giving petrol station driving license and all other details. You don't even need - or want - to give them your phone when card is declined. It isn't part of their operation to keep deposits.
This happens in shops/petrol stations and tolls all over the world. You get a docket and pay later - if not they will start debt collection/recovery.

After few incidents I had I learned cash is the king and always have some notes just in case - especially when going abroad or far from home here in Ireland.

Cards will never be declined within limits, they get referred. There are some absolute freak exceptions like the Ulster bank fiasco, this is force majeure and again different. If a card is referred the retailer should be ringing the bank and handing the phone to the customer if the bank request info for security.

Again an amicable solution should be reached but the petrol station is in the right, and where someone is unwilling to co-operate with what they are being asked to do the garage has the right to involve the guards. The guards don't have to arrest someone but they can make sure that details are correct and their's nothing else going on.

arleitiss

djimi wrote: »

Never heard of a fuel card?!!

No? what is that? isn't that just typical crap like tag and collect points or something?

dh0011

arleitiss wrote: »

No? what is that? isn't that just typical crap like tag and collect points or something?

google fuel card and you will see