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Abortion Discussion

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    #9932
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Daith wrote: »
    Surely it's the same as suicide though? Women will lie to access abortion?

    I would think in the case of rape it would need to be between the woman, doctor and Gardaí.

    However if people are viewing rape as abortion on demand I think it shows a huge problem with trusting women which a huge amount of issues around abortion generally involves.

    Sure, and in the case of suicide, the government (and electorate) insisted on some form of verification.

    I can't see a form of verification for rape that won't end up with
    Either abortion on demand or incredible injustice for many rape victims. I genuinely would be interested to hear practical suggestions though.


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    #9933
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Overheal wrote: »
    Seriously?

    During the debate around the POLIP bill many pro life commentators voiced their belief that women would lie about being suicidal so naturally they will assume women will lie about being raped.


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    #9934
    krankykitty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,518 ✭✭✭krankykitty


    As I heard someone speak at the weekend - when they are coming up with what to replace the 8th with (if repealed) it shouldn't be a question of what women will we "allow" have abortions, it should be about what women are we preventing access and/or forcing to travel.

    Who gets to be the judge and jury of what a worthy abortion is? I think people really need to start examining their thinking around this. If abortion is fine in some cases, why is it not fine in others?


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    #9935
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    eviltwin wrote: »
    During the debate around the POLIP bill many pro life commentators voiced their belief that women would lie about being suicidal so naturally they will assume women will lie about being raped.
    I think to be fair there was a certain amount of outrage from the pro-choice side when the requirements to determine suicidality were announced; it seemed to indicate that there was an idea that suicidality would provide an effective abortion on demand system similar to the way risk to health did in the UK. I'm happy to admit that was simply my impression of the discussion at the time; I don't know if any 'proper' commentators picked up on it. Certainly the impression I got was that pro-choice campaigners were happy that we would have abortion for suicidality, and were then unhappy when it became clear that appropriately qualified doctors would have to agree that abortion was the best way to combat the suicidal ideation. Certainly there were posters here who decried the legislation as 'not fit for purpose'. Maybe there was an idea there women would be able to simply lie about being suicidal, maybe not.

    I think it's perfectly reasonable to think that if someone wanted (needed even) to have an abortion, they would lie and say they were suicidal or raped if it meant they could get what they needed; people lie for far lesser reasons, and I don't think women, even pregnant women, are somehow morally superior to the general population. Sure, some wouldn't lie no matter what. Some might think twice if their lie might cause suffering to someone else (other than the foetus, obviously). And some might feel they shouldn't have to lie in order to have control of their own bodies, but if they had to then they weren't choosing to lie, it was simply a necessity.
    But the notion that women simply wouldn't lie to get what they want purely because they're women is a little silly.


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    #9936
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    krankykitty wrote: »
    Who gets to be the judge and jury of what a worthy abortion is? I think people really need to start examining their thinking around this. If abortion is fine in some cases, why is it not fine in others?
    Obviously the electorate does. I think even this thread alone sets out quite a number of positions where people feel abortion is fine in certain cases, not fine in others, and why they feel that is the case.

    The real question is in what cases do the majority of voters feel abortion is fine (or probably more accurately, justifiable), and what conditions are appropriate to set about those cases. Getting the answer to that right is what will determine the result of a referendum, or even whether it is politically sensible to support a referendum in the first place.


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    #9937
    Second Toughest in_the Freshers
    Site Banned Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Second Toughest in_the Freshers


    krankykitty wrote: »
    Who gets to be the judge and jury of what a worthy abortion is? I think people really need to start examining their thinking around this. If abortion is fine in some cases, why is it not fine in others?

    Who gets to be the judge and jury of what a worthy life is?


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    #9938
    krankykitty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,518 ✭✭✭krankykitty


    Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »
    Who gets to be the judge and jury of what a worthy life is?

    Plenty of antichoice people think they are entitled to make that decision for everyone else


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    #9939
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    krankykitty wrote: »
    Plenty of antichoice people think they are entitled to make that decision for everyone else
    How so? Which is to say, could you provide an example of what you mean?


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    #9940
    krankykitty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,518 ✭✭✭krankykitty


    Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »
    Who gets to be the judge and jury of what a worthy life is?

    To turn this around, why is a foetuses life worth more and need more protection if the woman's contraception failed, than if she was raped?if it's really about worthy lives that makes no sense.


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    #9941
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »
    Who gets to be the judge and jury of what a worthy life is?

    Curious,
    Do you think women who try to travel to UK to get an abortion should be stopped from traveling, detained and forced to give birth?

    How about a women that did travel for an abortion, when she returns should she be arrested and sentenced?

    Either you want to show an example to protect fetuses or you don't, if you don't want the above then you confirm you don't actually care about them.


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    #9942
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Curious,
    Do you think women who try to travel to UK to get an abortion should be stopped from traveling, detained and forced to give birth?

    How about a women that did travel for an abortion, when she returns should she be arrested and sentenced?

    Either you want to show an example to protect fetuses or you don't, if you don't want the above then you confirm you don't actually care about them.
    I doubt any of this matters in the EU. You can move where you like, when you like, and there's no prosecutions for breaking other countries' laws.


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    #9943
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,486 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I doubt any of this matters in the EU. You can move where you like, when you like, and there's no prosecutions for breaking other countries' laws.

    Erm....yes there is


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    #9944
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I doubt any of this matters in the EU. You can move where you like, when you like, and there's no prosecutions for breaking other countries' laws.

    Really? Thats news to me and the Irish state I guess,
    So you think the Irish state is 100% fine with a person traveling to an EU country that allows euthanasia if they were informed about the trip before hand?

    I guess this case never happened and the travel agent never notified Gardai either,
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/assisted-suicide-trial-nephew-had-no-problem-helping-her-travel-to-euthanasia-clinic-31161029.html

    :rolleyes:

    Now, back to my question which I outlined above...


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    #9945
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Fine article from Fintan O'Toole about this peculiar Irish Omertá and double-think.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-shining-light-on-abortion-one-of-ireland-s-unknown-knowns-1.2351430
    In our gabby, garrulous culture, the things we don’t want to talk about are made somehow non-existent. We unknow them. We proceed as if they had never occurred to us. Until, at last, some kind of tremor shakes the walls of silence and what we’ve always known is “revealed” to us.
    And abortion is a big part of this problem. Unlike most of the other unknown knowns, the doublethink on abortion is fully institutionalised. It’s written into law. On the one hand, a woman has a constitutional right to travel abroad to get an abortion. On the other, if she performs the very same act in Ireland she and her doctor and anyone who has helped her are all liable to 14 years in prison – a much longer sentence than the norm for, say, raping a child. Abortion is thus at once entirely normal and hideously, criminally, unspeakable. The whole point is that it must be allowed to happen but must not be acknowledged as a reality. It must be continually, systemically unknown. It must inhabit silence.


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    #9946
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I doubt any of this matters in the EU. You can move where you like, when you like, and there's no prosecutions for breaking other countries' laws.

    If the embryo is a life, as valid as you and I then ergo abortion is murder. And yet you're unlikely to find anyone who wants to see women who have abortions jailed. Funny that ....


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    #9947
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Shrap wrote: »
    Fine article from Fintan O'Toole about this peculiar Irish Omertá and double-think.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-shining-light-on-abortion-one-of-ireland-s-unknown-knowns-1.2351430

    It's actually really depressing that a woman admitting she had an abortion years ago still creates so much hype and anger. We all know it happens, why the shock when one of those women goes public.


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    #9948
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    eviltwin wrote: »
    It's actually really depressing that a woman admitting she had an abortion years ago still creates so much hype and anger. We all know it happens, why the shock when one of those women goes public.

    because people know it happens, but they don't want to be told it happens and they don't want a face put on the women that are forced into traveling. I think it reminds them of the reality and they find that uncomfortable.


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    #9949
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Really? Thats news to me and the Irish state I guess,
    So you think the Irish state is 100% fine with a person traveling to an EU country that allows euthanasia if they were informed about the trip before hand?

    I guess this case never happened and the travel agent never notified Gardai either,
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/assisted-suicide-trial-nephew-had-no-problem-helping-her-travel-to-euthanasia-clinic-31161029.html

    :rolleyes:

    Now, back to my question which I outlined above...
    And so travel for abortion within the EU and travel for euthanasia outside the EU are now the same thing? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
    Miss D case ruled on the actual thing we're discussing (remember that?) and said she couldn't be stopped. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


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    #9950
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    eviltwin wrote: »
    If the embryo is a life, as valid as you and I then ergo abortion is murder. And yet you're unlikely to find anyone who wants to see women who have abortions jailed. Funny that ....
    TBH I doubt most people have even given it that much thought. X is true but the public think Y isn't a sound or even logical basis for anything.
    Would you conversely say causing an 8 months pregnant woman to miscarriage is common assault on the woman?


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    #9951
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    And so travel for abortion within the EU and travel for euthanasia outside the EU are now the same thing? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Sorry when did I say outside of the EU exactly? I said within the EU.

    As for your question, in some people's views yes an abortion and euthanasia are the same thing. The result in somebody being murdered.
    I don't believe this, but lots of people see a fetus = to a baby and abortion = murder.

    Of course for those that do see these things then its only right that women should be stopped from traveling if you apply their mindset and logic to the issue.


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    #9952
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Would you conversely say causing an 8 months pregnant woman to miscarriage is common assault on the woman?

    Curious, what country allows abortions on 8 month old pregnancy's where it isn't for medical reasons like saving the women's life.


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    #9953
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Sorry when did I say outside of the EU exactly? I said within the EU.

    As for your question, in some people's views yes an abortion and euthanasia are the same thing. The result in somebody being murdered.
    I don't believe this, but lots of people see a fetus = to a baby and abortion = murder.

    Of course for those that do see these things then its only right that women should be stopped from traveling if you apply their mindset and logic to the issue.

    If she's assaulted yes but the crime is against her, not the baby.


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    #9954
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Sorry when did I say outside of the EU exactly? I said within the EU.
    I must have missed the bit where Switzerland joined the EU? You could provide some details as this doesn't appear to be well publicised?


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    #9955
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Curious, what country allows abortions on 8 month old pregnancy's where it isn't for medical reasons like saving the women's life.
    Nice try, but not actually relevant. Either killing a foetus is murder or it isn't is what the discussion is (actually I don't even agree with the premise as I think older foetuses are fully human). FYI the question was:
    If the embryo is a life, as valid as you and I then ergo abortion is murder.
    (BTW I'm assuming eviltwin is talking about implanted embryos here, destroying frozen embryos doesn't actually qualify as an abortion under any use of the term)


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    #9956
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #9957
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,363 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    eviltwin wrote: »
    If the embryo is a life, as valid as you and I then ergo abortion is murder. And yet you're unlikely to find anyone who wants to see women who have abortions jailed. Funny that ....

    In an extension of that, we also don't have inquests for every miscarriage. The sudden death of a baby requires an inquest. A spontaneous miscarriage (which happens to about 20% of all pregnancies) is never investigated for foul play.

    Does anyone seriously want to argue that every time a woman miscarries a pregnancy that she should be investigated for possible infanticide or negligent homicide?


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    #9958
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Does anyone seriously want to argue that every time a woman miscarries a pregnancy that she should be investigated for possible infanticide or negligent homicide?

    In all honesty I'm sure many people would argue that this should happen,
    The same sort of individuals that think women will use abortion as birth control and who will lie about rape, suicide and incest to have an abortion.

    Sure don't you know women can't be trusted,


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    #9959
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Cabaal wrote: »
    In all honesty I'm sure many people would argue that this should happen,
    The same sort of individuals that think women will use abortion as birth control and who will lie about rape, suicide and incest to have an abortion.

    Sure don't you know women can't be trusted,
    Exactly who are these "many people"? I've never heard one person propose this in my entire life from any side of the debate.


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    #9960
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Exactly who are these "many people"? I've never heard one person propose this in my entire life from any side of the debate.

    You live in a sheltered world in that case

    http://www.care2.com/causes/georgia-rep-investigate-miscarriage.html

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/26/1287527/-Kansas-Moves-to-make-Miscarriages-an-Investigation-Event-and-Defund-Planned-Parenthood

    Lots of people don't trust women, they exist in Europe as well as America,


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    #9961
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Akrasia wrote: »
    A spontaneous miscarriage (which happens to about 20% of all pregnancies) is never investigated for foul play.
    Actually around half of all embryos abort. So God kills more babies than we do...
    https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm


This discussion has been closed.
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