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Abortion Discussion
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And then she seems to have lost interest in the abortion, until she got to 24 weeks.
Community welfare can pay for lots of things, from communion outfits to abortions. Its discretionary.
No it's not and it hasn't been for years. It's called an exceptional needs payment. It's not meant to cover frivolities like a communion. It most certainly would never be payed out to cover the cost of an abortion.0 -
Well I'll defer to your superior knowledge then.No it's not and it hasn't been for years. It's called an exceptional needs payment. It's not meant to cover frivolities like a communion. It most certainly would never be payed out to cover the cost of an abortion.
The IFPA counselor seemed to think that there might be some sort of mechanism available to facilitate the trip, unless I am misreading it.0 -
Well I'll defer to your superior knowledge then.
The IFPA counselor seemed to think that there might be some sort of mechanism available to facilitate the trip, unless I am misreading it.
There is but it's not the CWO. Irish women have been brought to the UK for abortions facilitated and paid for by the HSE but it's dealt with on a case by case basis and its not easy to get. This woman should have been one of the obvious ones given her circumstances.0 -
Ah the communion thing was scrapped in 2013.It said this followed a review that recommended ENPs be paid in response to financial need rather than for occasions.0
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I suppose the counsellor should have advised her to contact HSE then, instead of the CWO, or maybe they did and this just got confused in the report.There is but it's not the CWO. Irish women have been brought to the UK for abortions facilitated and paid for by the HSE but it's dealt with on a case by case basis and its not easy to get. This woman should have been one of the obvious ones given her circumstances.0 -
I suppose the counsellor should have advised her to contact HSE then, instead of the CWO, or maybe they did and this just got confused in the report.
So you're agreeing that the report is not reliable then?
After all, the amount of speculating you're doing there in order to make their account halfway logical is significant. Either the account is wrong or people did things that are just nonsensical. Presenting a proposed journey to the Netherlands as a realistic suggestion being one of them. No-one could have imagined she had the money to go there, or the means to get that money without help.0 -
In fariness, if the HSE had no involvement with her visit to the UK, they would not likely include it in the report? Especially if the only person in Ireland who could give an account of it is Miss Y and she isn't co-operating with the investigation. I think someone might have pointed that out before, but anyways..That's a lot of trouble to go to to copy and paste various quotes from a draft report that not only contradicts itself but contains glaring omissions such as her visit to the UK where she was stained and then sent back to the HSE's care!
You don't think that was the letter they refer to when they say "July Wednesday 2nd The Spirasi doctor writes to the GP in Ms Y’s accommodation outlining concerns about Ms Y’s psychological wellbeing and states Ms Y has a “strong death wish”. The GP informs the report team he or she did not receive this letter."? I doubt there's any effort being made to cover up the assertion that she told Spirasi that she had attempted suicide; there's a quite public record of it at this stage.And also her reported suicide attempt which the people at Spirasi say they informed the HSE of.
Though it is probably the most reliable (or only) record there is at this stage.... and since it has been very strongly pointed out that it is a draft, not a report, there's hope for a comprehensive report yet.So it's really worth nothing as a reliable record of what happened.
Would she? According to the report at the time she didn't have enough money (€28 and £1) on her to pay for an abortion in the UK, so it seems she would have been relying on the UK accepting a solicitors representation that police, immigration and social services have a duty of care to Ms Y and this might well involve assisting her in obtaining a termination given the alleged circumstances of her pregnancy. There's no certainty there that she would have obtained an abortion in the UK, if she had been able to enter. In fact the chances of her making it to the UK and obtaining an abortion seem to have been curiously stacked against her.I really don't see what point you think you are making anyway - if she had been able to go the UK,as she tried to, at 16 weeks, she would have had an abortion. Wouldn't she?
But at 24 weeks she had already been assesed as requirinig a termination in Ireland? Why would she then go to the UK, where she would be rolling the dice again as to whether she could enter the country, and as to whether she would receive the treatment she wanted?And even given that she hadn't managed to get there then, at 24 weeks she would presumably (because of the one slightly similar case we know of) also have been allowed one, on the basis of it being an emergency.
Isn't that beacuse the UK permits termination it the case of a risk to the health of a woman, and Ireland permits termination in the case of a risk to the life of a woman?The reason there are no similar cases of course is that in the UK this just couldn't happen - pregnant women who express a constant desire for a termination beginning at 8 weeks will have had one long before 24 weeks, and probably long before 16 weeks. Only in Ireland would she be forced to wait until she became actually suicidal about her pregnancy, rather than just deeply distressed.
It's in the updated Irish Times timeline; it would seem the visit to the UK which the IFPA helped her to arrange was actually a visit to the Netherlands.Sorry, where is this trip to the Netherlands coming from? She decided not to go because she couldn't pay, or for some other reason? I'm aware of a visit to Liverpool, not to the Netherlands.
Potentially because the Liverpool customs service wasn't in communication with the HSE?And my "gossip" as you call it, included direct quotes from the records held by Liverpool customs service where she was arrested. How could a HSE report which left that out be considered accurate?
I don't think the report (or more accurately the Irish Times retelling of the draft report) says that anyone proposed to pay for the trip; it only says they advised her of the cost. In the original version (when it was still the UK, not the Netherlands) Miss Y was was surprised that she would have to pay the cost of the trip, and not having the money didn't follow up on it.So you're agreeing that the report is not reliable then?
As significacnt as speculating that she was accompanied by HSE officials to Liverpool who abandoned her when she was confronted by police?After all, the amount of speculating you're doing there in order to make their account halfway logical is significant.
Well, it's not Recedites account, it's the Irish Times'. But it seems no more nonsensical than a proposed journey to the UK; she couldn't afford to pay for either, but it's not up to the IFPA to deal with her finances, only to show her options.Either the account is wrong or people did things that are just nonsensical. Presenting a proposed journey to the Netherlands as a realistic suggestion being one of them.
Pretty much the same as a trip to the UK then.No-one could have imagined she had the money to go there, or the means to get that money without help.0 -
So you're agreeing that the report is not reliable then?
After all, the amount of speculating you're doing there in order to make their account halfway logical is significant. Either the account is wrong or people did things that are just nonsensical. Presenting a proposed journey to the Netherlands as a realistic suggestion being one of them. No-one could have imagined she had the money to go there, or the means to get that money without help.
The last comment I am going to make on this debate is that the woman seems to have been desperate to have an abortion and that all that stopped her was obstacles put in her way by the Irish state. Anyone who thinks otherwise is on a different planet from me.0 -
That's a sort of fair statement, but it kind of ignores the fact that the obstacles placed in her way by the Irish State were due to the fact that what she desperately wanted was illegal. Once it ceased being illegal, the State ceased to put obstacles in her way, but you can't really expect the State to facilitate an illegal action simply because someone desperately wants to do it.The last comment I am going to make on this debate is that the woman seems to have been desperate to have an abortion and that all that stopped her was obstacles put in her way by the Irish state. Anyone who thinks otherwise is on a different planet from me.0 -
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There are no term limits in Ireland. In the UK the criteria are sharply different before and after 24 weeks, and after is extremely restricted and rare. The idea of an absolute term limit makes little sense, anyway, and offhand I'm not aware of anywhere that has them.There are no date limits for abortion in either UK or Ireland.
Another very odd use of "even". I've been pointing out for years that the "abortion on demand" canard regarding the UK is just that. I suppose eventually it was bound temporarily suit someone's position to briefly pay attention...Even alaimacerc agrees that abortion is not guaranteed in the UK;
Also struggling to see how this is relevant, but the UK's not big on the whole jus soli thing.What are their rules re citizenship when somebody gives birth on UK soil?
This whole strand has the strong whiff of another fishing-around-for-someone-else-to-blame exercise. However speculatively, however cart-before-the-horse. Irish law being, axiomatic, Perfect in Every Way, there must therefore be a pony in here somewhere.0 -
CO'M not a big fan of the theory of a preexisting foetal right to life (or indeed foetal personhood), then. Surprise!http://constitutionproject.ie/?p=380 Repealing the Eighth Amendment: As Simple as it Sounds?
January 5, 2015 by
Dr Conor O’Mahony
"There would be something of a blank canvas on the question of when that right must give way to other rights.
It's an interesting article, but as it eventually concludes, repeal is much more politically uncertain than legally so. Almost inevitably, when some future government proposes (say) "let's repeal the 8th, but with a view to retaining the PoLDPA, and then further legislating for FFA", there will be howls from all quarters. Notably, various people preferring some retain-and-tweak option. But those all seem at least as problematic, and prone to being second-guessed in much the same way. The usual referendum "Yes votes are all alike; every no vote is no in its own way" issue.The legislature could seek to fill in that canvas, and the courts would probably be highly deferential to legislative choice in such a sensitive and divisive field. However, the precise scope of this deference cannot be guaranteed, and legislation providing for a more liberal abortion regime would remain susceptible to constitutional challenge. The history of this debate in Ireland suggests that such a challenge would be almost inevitable."[/I]0 -
I just finally read through yesterdays discussion and what really stood out for me was recedite's theory that there was something fishy about Ms Y not following through with the Netherlands option, and the subsequent explanation from others that 1,300 euro is not an option.
Clearly, there are people who think that 1,300 would just be handed straight over by the CW officer in an emergency (as if they don't ask you what the emergency is..) - Sorry recedite. for a usually sensible poster, you know sweet FA about social welfare, which is nice for you, but you seem to be guilty of thinking people on SW can actually get more money if they need more?They go through costs, including €300 for a flight to the Netherlands and €700 for a termination at the Casa Clinic in Leiden, that total €1,300.
I have been fortunate enough never to have had to approach a CW about an emergency payment but I have met a few officers, some lovely, others very much of the "computer says no" variety. I also know a number of people who have had to ask for an emergency payment, in one case for help towards a child's coffin and funeral which as you can imagine would be somewhat similar than the 1,300 question. They got 400 towards it, and the CW (although very nice) explained how his hands were tied and he couldn't give any more than that. Just an example. Of course, in the past, the communion dresses were a special case, this being a "catholic country" and all that.
This may actually go some way towards explaining why there are so many births to girls from deprived areas btw. There currently is no option to raise an approx 1,000 to go to the UK for an abortion for anybody on social welfare, especially if the family already invariably have a credit union loan for a car or similar. Banks won't touch them at all.0 -
That's a sort of fair statement, but it kind of ignores the fact that the obstacles placed in her way by the Irish State were due to the fact that what she desperately wanted was illegal. Once it ceased being illegal, the State ceased to put obstacles in her way, but you can't really expect the State to facilitate an illegal action simply because someone desperately wants to do it.
They didn't need to facilitate an illegal action. They could have done the following;There is but it's not the CWO. Irish women have been brought to the UK for abortions facilitated and paid for by the HSE but it's dealt with on a case by case basis and its not easy to get. This woman should have been one of the obvious ones given her circumstances.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »They didn't need to facilitate an illegal action. They could have done the following;
AFAIK it's only wards of state, like children in care who are facilitated this way. For some reason, Ms Y was clearly not eligible.
"A spokeswoman for Frances Fitzgerald's department said that "in recent years a small number of travel documents were issued to women to leave the State" for abortion, but it had no funding role.
Adult asylum seekers who needed the special permission had to find their own source of funding for an abortion. If minors were in state care their expenses were paid for by the Health Service Executive (HSE).
Around six girls under the age of 18 had their travel and abortions paid for in the UK by the HSE since the early 1990s."
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/asylum-seekers-granted-abortion-visas-30527713.html0 -
I just finally read through yesterdays discussion and what really stood out for me was recedite's theory that there was something fishy about Ms Y not following through with the Netherlands option, and the subsequent explanation from others that 1,300 euro is not an option.
Clearly, there are people who think that 1,300 would just be handed straight over by the CW officer in an emergency (as if they don't ask you what the emergency is..) - Sorry recedite. for a usually sensible poster, you know sweet FA about social welfare, which is nice for you, but you seem to be guilty of thinking people on SW can actually get more money if they need more?
I have been fortunate enough never to have had to approach a CW about an emergency payment but I have met a few officers, some lovely, others very much of the "computer says no" variety. I also know a number of people who have had to ask for an emergency payment, in one case for help towards a child's coffin and funeral which as you can imagine would be somewhat similar than the 1,300 question. They got 400 towards it, and the CW (although very nice) explained how his hands were tied and he couldn't give any more than that. Just an example. Of course, in the past, the communion dresses were a special case, this being a "catholic country" and all that.
This may actually go some way towards explaining why there are so many births to girls from deprived areas btw. There currently is no option to raise an approx 1,000 to go to the UK for an abortion for anybody on social welfare, especially if the family already invariably have a credit union loan for a car or similar. Banks won't touch them at all.
Not forgetting that this woman was not on social welfare but as an asylum seeker has an allowance of 15 euro a week. The community welfare system is unfathomable and unpleasant even to Irish people, now try being a newcomer, foreign and traumatized.0 -
Perhaps it's only women aged under 18 years of age who can get hse funding for abortions?
The right to travel doesn't include the right to help for travel. There's charities who help women with money if they can't fund the abortion themselves. There's also the problem of women travelling from Ireland often requiring later term abortions which adds to the cost and women have to get money together meaning they can't get abortions at an earlier, and cheaper, stage of pregnancy.0 -
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AFAIK it's only wards of state, like children in care who are facilitated this way. For some reason, Ms Y was clearly not eligible.
"A spokeswoman for Frances Fitzgerald's department said that "in recent years a small number of travel documents were issued to women to leave the State" for abortion, but it had no funding role.
Adult asylum seekers who needed the special permission had to find their own source of funding for an abortion. If minors were in state care their expenses were paid for by the Health Service Executive (HSE).
Around six girls under the age of 18 had their travel and abortions paid for in the UK by the HSE since the early 1990s."
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/asylum-seekers-granted-abortion-visas-30527713.html
Understood, but I took umbrage at Absolam requiring the State to facilitate an illegal action in order to assist. There was another avenue available, which has been used in the past. That Mrs. Y wasn't eligible for monetary assistance (surely asylum seekers are wards of the state btw?) is an issue of course, but providing monetary assistance would be exceptional but not illegal.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Understood, but I took umbrage at Absolam requiring the State to facilitate an illegal action in order to assist. There was another avenue available, which has been used in the past. That Mrs. Y wasn't eligible for monetary assistance (surely asylum seekers are wards of the state btw?) is an issue of course, but providing monetary assistance would be exceptional but not illegal.
I'm not so sure. Doctors aren't allowed legally to organise abortions as women travelling for Ffa reasons will tell you and those women haven't been funded for termination abroad, they have to fund it themselves. I don't know if anyone has sought and received funding for abortion on hardship grounds from the state. I can't see the hse setting a precedent for adult women being state funded for abortions abroad.0 -
I'm not so sure. Doctors aren't allowed legally to organise abortions as women travelling for Ffa reasons will tell you and those women haven't been funded for termination abroad, they have to fund it themselves. I don't know if anyone has sought and received funding for abortion on hardship grounds from the state. I can't see the hse setting a precedent for adult women being state funded for abortions abroad.
I'm going from this
(I am also not so sure, but am taking the above at face value as the poster would be far better informed than me)There is but it's not the CWO. Irish women have been brought to the UK for abortions facilitated and paid for by the HSE but it's dealt with on a case by case basis and its not easy to get. This woman should have been one of the obvious ones given her circumstances.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »I'm going from this
(I am also not so sure, but am taking the above at face value as the poster would be far better informed than me)
The HSE have brought women to the UK as Shrap post above details. I have heard anecdotal stories from people in the HSE of other women such as chronic drug users being given funds to travel for abortions but no idea how true that is. Its not illegal to give funding for abortions, some would argue the ethics of it and its certainly hypocritical but its not against the law. I suppose in the case of the girls in care the state had a duty of care to them to ensure they weren't in a position where they could become pregnant in the first place. Asylum seekers in direct provision are different.0 -
The HSE have brought women to the UK as Shrap post above details. I have heard anecdotal stories from people in the HSE of other women such as chronic drug users being given funds to travel for abortions but no idea how true that is. Its not illegal to give funding for abortions, some would argue the ethics of it and its certainly hypocritical but its not against the law. I suppose in the case of the girls in care the state had a duty of care to them to ensure they weren't in a position where they could become pregnant in the first place. Asylum seekers in direct provision are different.
I would think state funded abortions abroad would be legally questionable at the very least. I donate to a UK based organization because from what I've heard and read an Irish based charity providing money for the purposes of.travelling for abortions would be on dodgy ground. At the very least the pro-life groups would be all over them like a rash, look at how they portray the IFPA.
Given that women needing terminations for FFA have reported doctors as telling them they can't refer them to UK services but they have to organise everything themselves and pay for it all, I'd wonder at state funded abortions for other hardship based cases.0 -
I would think state funded abortions abroad would be legally questionable at the very least. I donate to a UK based organization because from what I've heard and read an Irish based charity providing money for the purposes of.travelling for abortions would be on dodgy ground. At the very least the pro-life groups would be all over them like a rash, look at how they portray the IFPA.
Given that women needing terminations for FFA have reported doctors as telling them they can't refer them to UK services but they have to organise everything themselves and pay for it all, I'd wonder at state funded abortions for other hardship based cases.
I've been searching online for the last hour under every term I can think of to try and find some details, but they're seriously sketchy (understandably) and really only constitute anecdotal evidence. I remember turning up a report (anonymous) before from a Clinical Psychologist that went into some detail about how shady the HSE were in giving him any information on the legal process involved in supporting a ward of state going to the UK for an abortion, but I can't find it now. His role (and he considered it odd to be asked, in that there clearly wasn't an official HSE appointed Psychologist) was to determine suicidality in pregnant minors in order for the HSE to legally apply for the travel visa from the courts.
Here's what I did find and it clearly shows the mess that allowed this poor young girl to be refused financial help:
"The Peculiar Case of Young Women in Care
The Act itself does not refer to the position of young women in care in accordance with the terms of the Child Care Act 1991, but the Guidance Document explicitly refers to these cases, peculiarly referring to those “under the age of 18” in this context. Here, the Document asserts that the young woman has no capacity to consent to any medical procedure herself, and that advice should be sought by the HSE before proceeding with medical treatment. It goes on to advise that the type of care order involved will determine who can consent on behalf of the young woman: the young woman’s parents (in the case of a Voluntary Care Order) or the District Court (in the case of an interim or emergency care order)."
http://humanrights.ie/children-and-the-law/young-women-and-abortion-repealthe8th/
"Some years ago, facing a series of tearful and terrified teenage girls who wanted to travel to the UK to have an abortion, I was struck by the cold-heartedness of putting traumatised teenagers through the hoops of questionable legal procedures to access medical services they had clearly given informed consent for. These were ‘unaccompanied minors’ in the care of the HSE whose carers were looking for approval to facilitate access to abortion services by accompanying these pregnant children to the UK. The certification I issued advised that where informed consent had been satisfactorily given then restricting access to abortion would increase the risk of suicide and this was accepted by the High Court unquestioned. However, forcing these vulnerable children through such a process of fear, uncertainty and delay left me with an abiding sense that we were not much further on from the days of the Magdalene laundries." Dr Peadar O’Grady (Consultant Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist and member of Doctors for Choice) http://doctorsforchoiceireland.com/2013/04/29/suicide-in-pregnancy-is-much-rarer-now-thanks-to-legal-abortion/
There certainly isn't any easily accessible information about any actual HSE policy, which indicates to me that it's only ever done very much under the radar.0 -
Here you go. I found it as a link in one of my first posts as Shrap (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92577529&postcount=6803)on this very subject.
"However, Ms O’Shea spoke to one psychiatrist about his involvement with the HSE in the certification of children in care to go abroad for terminations and he recalled dealing with five or six cases in one year alone. Several weeks after her initial interview with this psychiatrist, he contacted Ms O’Shea and said he would be risking his career if he spoke publically about the process.
The psychiatrist said:
“I first became involved in this, around 2005/2006. I’m not sure of the dates I’ll have to double check. Somebody from the Irish and Family Planning Association contacted me and asked if I could perform psychiatric checks on underage girls who were being brought abroad by the HSE for terminations. I didn’t fully understand why my opinion was being solicited but apparently the HSE thought it was necessary. It was my view that these girls should be allowed go abroad and have terminations if they so wished. I didn’t see why they should be subject to any rigorous questioning. I simply asked them if they wanted to go and if they felt this was the right decision. Each time, they said yes. I dealt with about five or six cases over a year-long period though, again, I’d have to check that for you. After that time, the arrangement came to an end.”"
http://www.broadsheet.ie/tag/separated-children/
I was wrong about him having said he was required to determine suicidal ideation. There was another one I found before that I can't find now that was from a psychologist who tried questioning the HSE about it and was never asked again. All anecdotal, all under the radar as Ms. O'Shea above indicates in the article above.0 -
The main point being these girls (not women) were under 18. As with other services, turning 18 means you're in a different category in the eyes of the HSE and other state services.
I am only surmising that when Ms Y came here, she was 17. Perhaps there was some level of understanding on her side that the HSE would organize the abortion and pay for it. Then suddenly she turns 18, things get muddled and delay after delay means she has to consent to a c section as a termination of pregnancy.
I would also surmise that the reason this is done 'under the radar' is because if it was widely known that the HSE funds children under 18 years of age who cannot travel under their own means or capacity to avail of abortion services in other countries, other women would begin to seek such funding. Especially in cases of FFA abnormality where the costs can be significant. Would other women who do not have the means to travel be able to argue their case for HSE funded abortion services? Who knows.0 -
I would think state funded abortions abroad would be legally questionable at the very least. I donate to a UK based organization because from what I've heard and read an Irish based charity providing money for the purposes of.travelling for abortions would be on dodgy ground. At the very least the pro-life groups would be all over them like a rash, look at how they portray the IFPA.
Given that women needing terminations for FFA have reported doctors as telling them they can't refer them to UK services but they have to organise everything themselves and pay for it all, I'd wonder at state funded abortions for other hardship based cases.
Its a good question, I don't know. Does the law cover funding for abortions? If I make it known that I have paid for someone to travel to the UK for an abortion am I breaking the law?
I'm very surprised that there wasn't an outcry from certain groups over this. Its not like them to be so quiet. But its irks me that the State that continues to keep abortion illegal is actually facilitating abortions for women in its care while the rest of us are told we can't have one.0 -
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From reading what women who travel for FFA have experienced, it seems as though doctors' hands are tied in terms of referring them specifically for abortion services abroad. They can mention 'a hospital in Liverpool' but the women seem to have to research, organize and fund the process themselves. These women have to get substantial money together (four figure sums are mentioned) at short notice, not to mention the emotional cost of having to travel for such medical treatment. I wonder what the response of a CWO or HSE rep would be to a request for financial assistance in such cases? And if it would be put in writing?0
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